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quote:I found that I could feel myself creating the body double...

Cube, I'm unable to do that... However, it's not required for the trick I suggested to you to stabilize your dreams. It is very possisble that we don't understand each other.

Here it is in details what I've suggested to you in my previous post to prevent premature awakenings. First, you do your method to project as you used to do. When you get the feeling that you're able to separate, you'll do it, again, as you used to do. I'm assume when you'll look back you'll don't see any physical body or double (as I do in 95-99% of my experiences). So, at this point there is no difference whether you separated or simply waked up in the dream. You should do basic stabilization by looking and grabbing things in the dream and observing fine details before doing the trick.

When the dream become stable and looks pretty much like awake reality, you go back to your bedroom and lay back on your empty bed. The most important thing to do is to arrange your dream body exactly to the position of your sleeping physical body by (a) lying in the same orientation as your physical body is supposed to, or (b) by lying in opposite direction. You should do a mindblank and wait for the feelings of reattachment/preseparation before you could separate again. The (a) version will work 4 from 5 times (depending the exact type of the base experience and the interval it is performed). The (b) version is not tested properly...yet.

If performed in regular intervalls this trick will restart dreaming by mimicking the mechanisms underlying the process of the first separation. No levitation in etheric doubles and likes are required.

You can't learn to much, because the information must be downloaded to the brain and that takes time. The brain has a limited capacity, because the speed of the molecular/neural processes required for learning have a speed limit.

Do you know his trumpet concerto in D major? Great music.

Cube, perhaps you could try the rotated or the simple reintegration procedure we discussed to superstabilize your state. Just go back to your bedroom and lay down into the position of you sleeping body. If you'll fail, at least you'll accumulate further feelings of reseparation.

1. further theories on the rotation of the dreaming double

In the case of the "light version" you don't feel yourself above your body. You feel perfectly awake and normal in every sense, except, you know that the orientation you feel is falsh. By opening your eyes, your felt orientation will snap back to its original. It is very easy to loose the falsh orientation even without opening the eyes, but you could always restore it easily. This is all very curious, because if you try to get the feelings of the opposite orientation from awake, you'll come to a conclusion that this consciousness is something that very difficult to get. Because you feel yourself in your body all the time, this consciousness can't be explained by the double of the "hard version."

If we assume that the simple attraction/repulsion modell is correct, the double's opposite orientation have to be stable and there are no reason to reorientate itself when forced to retract by the cable at awakeing. There are two problems with the "light version:" 1. absence of mechanism responsible for the reorientation; 2. absence of feeling of rotation at reorientation....Some ingredient is still missing.


2. some observation on etheric separations

If I'm in a state of deep trance charcterised by very low muscle tone (not real paralysis of the REM-sleep) and try to move by great force the pressure felt on my lower body will increase (see my post "how to paralyse yourself") to the point when I'm able to detach my double. At this point the double is attached to my lower body by a honey like flow of substance made up from threads. I think, this is the first version of the cable with diameter 20-30 cm. If I succeded to detach fully, the honey will saved back and another cable type will emerge. I've observed agressive cables attached to my solar plexus regio dozen of times. At least 5-10 times the attachment regio gradually moved up when I was increased the length of separation. The sight will turn on when the cable attachment point on my double reach a point situated between my heart and the base of my neck. The pull and diameter of the cable will decrease by distance in an exponential manner. I've read somewhere, that the attachment point correspond to the exact state and composition of the double. I think this is correct, and the entire process is similar with the natural lifting up of the double when special (?) dreaming is occur. But in the vase of dreaming the attachemnt point will stop at the solar plexus.


3. practical aspects of the double rotation

Imagining myself sleeping at a remote location, preferably a place where I slept before, is proved to be a good way for me to enter REM-sleep with full awareness. It is very possible, that holding the feelings of sleeping in the opposite direction is a good way for inducing an OBE. As I said above, this consciousness is very difficult to get. Even if I would find myself being unable to detach after succesfully stabilize the feelings of lying in the opposite direction, success to enter to dreaming by holding the consciousness of being a remote location is supposed to increase.

The entire process could evolve like a pyramid shaped protocol: (1) relaxation => (2) stabilizing the consciousness of the opposite direction => (3) holding/enter the dream => (4) return to the consciousness of the opposite direction => (5) awakening.

The act of the 4th point is very important, and can be used to stabilize and prolong dreaming. Years ago, I have been making experiences with matching the posture of my dream body to my phyisical. As you can read in one of my previous post ("Dream approach..."), this practice proved to be very useful to turn LDs into OBEs. Couple of weeks ago I found a new variation of this technique to "superstabilize" dreaming. In 3 LDs I've found that when I have matched the posture of my dream body with the exact posture of my physical body by a fault (I continously change my sleeping place), but in opposite orientation, I can't wake up by will. This simple act prolonged and stabilized all the four dreams to the point where I've began to experience claustrofobic feelings (~ 1+ hour in dreaming time. This is not a placebo, because up to this moment I was not aware of this pattern.


>>> upstream

..in mornings & late evenings

quote:Its also very hard to hold on to if you think about it too much. I beleive the music is created by the listener. I can control it, and craft it, but with so much ease. Its as if you become a musical genious when you are near the astral.

This is exactly what I used to experience before almost all of my self-induced APs.

Hello Cube, thanks your feedback.

quote:So maybe it's like your physical body and your etheric double have magnetic polarities and when you project but don't do anything because you don't know you projected, the double's north pole repels the physical body's north pole and it twists on the cord. Same with the south pole since opposites repel.

If I understand you correctly, you said above, that the double has a magnetic field corresponding with the physical body, so when it's raised above the body it is forced to rotate on the cable by magnetic attraction/repulsion:

            
NN-----SS  physical body & its double are in sync


N-----S   double
N-----S   body


S-----N  double
cord
N-----S  body


It can explain all the symptomps of the "hard version." The rotation will occur automatically when the body and its double come out of alignment. Role of the Earth's magnetic field is eliminated as well. We should be pleased by this simple and elegant explanation. Tanks your idea, Cube. But what do you mean by "RTZ representation"?

Perhaps there is an another, but dorsoventral polarisation which lift up the double. So, the double have at least two magnetic field perpendicular on each other. The dorsoventral polarisation lift up the double, the rostrocaudal polarisation rotate the double. The only requirement is to set free the double by deep muscular relaxation/REM-paralysis. It's simple, like shitting in bed.

The double of the hard version is not a habit forced interpretation of the expanded bioplasm body as I explained before, but indeed an independent body itself. A totally independent, perfectly human-shaped etheric body - a nightmare for the mainstream scientists. It can be a field-complexum which originate from the vacuum, and organize the body by morphogenetic control. Unluckily, it seems to me, that this can't explain the "lite version."

quote:There have been a lot of times when I was relaxing trying to OBE and it felt like I was spinning, maybe that's where your double has been created because of your intent to project. Because I don't have the mental control to transfer awareness to it, it just sits there and spins, giving me twirling sensations as I slowly try to acquire access to it.

When you awake from a dream you may feel a great urge to move. You could turn this tension into an OBE by not moving phyically but imagining one of your arms moving like a flag or setting a spinning sensation similar you have mentioned. At least 100 of my OBEs are occured by this manner. First I'll make the feeling that I'm lying in little a tornado spinning around my body. I found that easier to transform the tornado sensation into the feeling of a spinning double by centering the vortex at the height of my neck. You should do the vortex movement at least 3-5 minutes without moving to being sure that you could or couldn't able to spin yourself out. If you feel yourself spin, you can easily detach your double by increasing the speed of your spinning and concentrating a point above your head.

That was good.

SLB & RAM in the same physical room?

This is a good question. It have to do something with the body own magnetic field and the opposite polarities. There are no other direction for opposing something than the 180 degrees. But this oppostition is not a rotation, as I sad above, albeit can be felt so at times when you identify yourself with your etheric double.

In this state, we're still assume that we have a body, ergo a sense of direction. Just think on the problem of the 360-degrees sight you have experienced in the RTZ.

I'm suppose the dreamer double is an amorpheous cloud made up of charged ions constantly emanating and reabsorbing from our tissues. Both the sense of this body and its supposed direction are interpretations, because this body has no real macrostructure.

> Hypothesis #1

Only the particles or the field are reorientated at times, when the special (?) type of dreaming/projecting occur. In the case of the hard version of the symptom, your waking personality would interpret the 180 degrees reorientation of the axis of your polarised ions as a rotation. When I would get only a little awareness of the ordinary awakening process, I could think I'm laying in the opposite direction (the lite version).

> Hypothesis #2

Perhaps, I have simplified the problem a little by saying that your bioplasm body has no macro-structure at all. The ion pools of the various organs can't be the same. Considering only the chakra hypothesis, at least there enirely different pool are exist. Their borders are at the diaphragm & somewhere at neck. Perhaps the ion pool of the abdominal cavities must excange with the thoracic pool to do the dreaming/projecting in question. In this case real rotation have to occure.

> Hypothesis #3

It is possible too, that both hypothesis #1 & #2 are correct, but their associated doubles are different, so the hard and lite versions come to occur in different "bodies", perhaps this would occur in a successive manner as the process of awakening/projecting progress.

You can request any music you like in your APs. Also, you're able to mold the music on fly, which is, at least in my case, alwasy seems to be the "remix" version of the original.

Hearing music works best when I'm just flying. Unfortunately, flying could destabilize my projections and will turn them into a state very close to hipnagogia/hipnopompia, the state where the music is originated from.

So be careful, requesting music could awake you. But this can be a very useful practice. You're able to re-paralyse your body by balancing at the line where the music and noise turn to each other. If you take bath in the hipnagog music/noise, your brain will accustomed to it, making new connections.


>>> upstream

Patrik, I have concluded from my mutual dreamings, that you find yourself unable to speek, when your partner couldn't understand you. (+ in the postseparational stage when having too much residual awareness in your sumberling body)

quote:If you can turn the top figure into the opposite direction, that's what I'm trying to explain as what happens.

Oh my God! Of course, Wisp, we're all talking about this. See the narrow on the picture. (Its originally from Ballabene`s OBE and Astral Pages. He "have cancelled all his sites because of an unbearable quantitiy of spam"...)

quote:The top figured does a flip toward the opposite direction. This causes a disoriented state.This disoriented state is what seems to bring on the vision or other experiences.

Yes, yes, as I said above, "I think that some form of dreaming require this kind of reorientation."

Hm..I'm start to think that I can't explain myself. Just say, we understand you, upstream, please feel free to bonk off! And Cube...he so cube...at least he could say that take my willy, upstream or something.

Feeling devastated because various reasons:

>>> upstream

Yes, I have one, hello Cube.

I think that some form of dreaming require this kind of reorientation. My sister, who don't replace her bed continously (as I do my matress), has been experience a lite version of it. Which is: you could be fully awake and knowing at the same time that your body position is not as you feel that it is. The falsh consciousness will cease when you open your eyes. The hard version of it is connected to stable preseparational states in which you have an unquestionable, albeit falsh consciousness of your body position. I have about 50 APs with the hard version, and uncounted experiences with the lite ones. I should research my notes for detailed examples.

My hypothesis is that the first "body" that have no macro-structure (I mean the subtle versions of thread-like structures of vessels, nerves) and therefore able to "do" the 180 degrees rotation without functional deficit is an amorphous bioplasm body, regularly serving for dreaming. When the process of dreaming begin, your consciousness is transferred into this body, then projected into the virtual/astral space by local mindsplit. The remaining, semicoscious part of your being (which reflected into the bioplasm body) seems to constantly register its position - perhaps for security reasons.

In reality, there is no need for gradual rotation, but due the habit of having a body and directionals to move, you would get the feeling of rotation by "levitating" on your "silver cord." So, having experiences of rotated body postitions would sign the increased consciousness of your dreamer/bioplasm double.

This double even can be moved in short distances. I have dozen paged notes about the agressive cables connected to my solar plexus region wich is supposed to be the control centre of the dreamer vehicle.




>>> upstream

Hello to all,

I don't want to degrade this wonderful phenomena by explanation, but I have one. You could read that @
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12177

If you're experience the music again, try to concentrate on the noise "behind it". You could balance beetween noise and music to a point when you're able to get out.


>>> upstream

I'm hoping the same...

I was witnessed to his desperate efforts trying to understand social rules. He could learned a lot about human buisness by interacting with my family. I'm just so sorry about his premature leaving.

The doctor hadn't brought a catheeter and I came up with the stupid idea that we could perforate his bladder. He have had a terrific death.

Thanks for your detailed description about your astral cat. It has many purpose to serve.

My little cat, who have had a miserably life, has just died. He was pompous and arrogant like me, and come to his end in his own urine, blood and glop. Ha has died in my arms, because of my stupid idea... because of me. No words can express what I feel now.

Order is the soul of everything.

DO IT NOW !!

Please cut & paste experiences on cats to their right place @ astral experiences / cats & power-lines, before I'll get angry. Your experience is significant.

>>> upstream

Most of the times, the pillows are ordered like someone is lying there. Sometimes I would see a pulsating mass above my bed or a pressure on it. Once I have measured the frequency of pulsation. It has something to do with the vibrations and head pressure.

Seeing my own corpse is very rare (I could count it on my hands), but I have a method to do that. Seeing myself was freeky first, later serve me as laugherable times...until I've cut my hair...

Three years ago, I started to be suspicious when I began to think about myself as "we" at flying times somwhere in F21/22 dreams. At one of those times, when I flew through a window with great speed, I've found that someone is grabbing my ankle.

After that, I begun to aware that something is on my back. When I've attempted to get through a narrow passage, something pinched to one of the object of the previous place and the connection is stretched like a rubber band, holding me back. I've found this incident tend to repeat all the times, when I'm around the RTZ and trying to get through such narrow passages ("elastic windows") which are supposed to separate places not connected in RTZ. Some kind of sensory resistance for changing dream places?

First I tought that my back represent something from the corner of my awareness, perhaps my sleeping body projected into the dream space, similarly when body postures and pressures are appear in dreaming. However, I have had found that my usual hiperspeed of flying was greatly reduced, too. Zooming became difficult, and started to be saccadic, too.

At one of those struggles with narrow passages, I've discovered that a packsack was atteched on my back. When I've got aware of it I began to hear a creepy voice whispering that not to deal with it, just go on - I've forget immediately the whole incident. This repeated for days until I've reached a point to I started to be afraid and began to condition my consciousness for the next time.

When this accident was repeated a few days later I was more than ready, got very angry and grabbed back. For the first time I was able to examine teh supposed origin of my mysery. I knew what I was dealing with is an interpretation but I'm do my best to describe what I was seen. Well, it was like a great green worm with pink marvel melting away turning into snot within seconds.

An another time of grabbing back, I've lost my consciousness by some kind of "social trap": an old man materialized from the midst of nowhere, went to my kitchen and eat all the food he was found. At the same time he was constantly spoke to me, joked with me and have told many funny tales - until I lost my consciousness and found myself with him in a regular dream.

I don't know whether the packsack went away on his own, or we are together so far, but after app. one dozen of conscious encounter with it I come to a conclusion that its origin is stacionar by its very nature and don't travel at all. Someone/something simply installed an energy pack on my astral body. This connection later manifest as arms grabbing me from behind, but in reality it works like the silver cord: strech and connect my actual state of being with the stationer state where the center of consciousness of the hijacker is reside.

Of course, it's easy to be wise after the event, but I have an idea.
The solution may be simply that you should examine your astral body, and uninstall the attachment point. The trojan have to be installed at you neck/heart region.

I'm suppose we could do the same: signing someone by putting a bit of your energy field into his/her astral body, for the purpose to being able to monitor his/her activity. May be we can accomplish that by stretching our imaginery arms from the vibrational stage to our target. Please wise...


>>> upstream


P.S. Nay, I will catch you soon, it's for sure. And we will fight. (fading, evil laugher)

You could interrupt your sleep, then bent your arm. Lot of my rolling-out OBEs have came that way.

However, after all the struggle you'll got through, your arm could remain in perfect balance. It will not hinder you to getting out, but could help to get the very feeling of the detaching process and understand the nature of the paralysis.

You could generate intent simply by the sustained act of not allowing yourself to sleep as you used to. And this is the intent which allow you to get awareness of the proper state required for separation.

>>> upstream

Don't worry my friend. At least 100 of my APs/LDs are occured while I was lying on my side & stomach. However, it seems to me, that etheric OBE-ing is very difficult from that position. You could waste years by lying on your back and trying to relax.

100% relaxation is not possible, there is a residual tension all the time. By decreasing the inicial tension, the residual awareness of your sleeping body, thus the stability of your LD will increase.

Etheric OBEs require deep muscular relaxation from the very beggining. Turning tensed LDs to far journeys will induce delta sleep by default with very low muscle tone.

I'm not overweighted, but perhaps my favorite position will work for you, too. Lie on your stomach, with pillow beneath your left or right side, under your shoulder and upper body. Bend your leg at the same side to further support.

Also, you can try the sleeping tiger position, which is very good for LDs. Make a Google search to find it, by descriptors like "sleeping tiger", "dream yoga", "taoist".



Or

Wow! This is EXACTLY the core of the method currently I'm working on. We're in sync, man!

Only one difference...There are times (very low pSWA), when it can be benefecial to choose a remote location for your environment-scan, because transferring the consciousness of your lying body (the dreamer body) to an another place, and the act of succesfully holding this consciousness by scanning, could trigger the REM-process. Another thing: visualisation is not required, only the all inclusive feeling of the focused object.

Keep up the good work

P.S. I'm not sure that verbalising is a good idea, but I'll give it a shot.