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I can un understand kozzi's piont of view. I think you guys really go a little too far as far as interpreting is concerned, considering the fact that nobody really knows what a certain dream means. I think it's legitime do interprete dreams but please make clear that it is a theorie and no fact. Which is (in my piont of view) not always clear in shamans posts.

The question is, is anybody trying to see them at all?! maybe you should find somebody who is really willing to do the test and says so, otherwise I wouldn't be surprised if nobody answers[]

I would try to make a test if you paint an easy but uncommon geometric figure on a piece of paper and place it in your bedroom. I wouldn't do a OBE's though but a LD. Don't know if it would work, but I had luck in the past with such an experiment. who knows maybe I would be able to do it again.
What do you think?

Hey Kazbadan: I would suggest that you put paintings, forms or something as a target, cause numbers are very difficult to "see" since they are abstract and mutate easily in the astral. Cause If somebody guesses the numbers wrong does not mean he wasn't in your room!

NEones post reminds me of something:
I once had a "Dream" were I percieved Colors that do not exist on earth. It was a very strange feeling I knew that once I would wake up It would be impossible to take this memory back cause it was not possible to "know on earth" since it was impossible for my brain to remember it. As I awoke I felt like the memories of the colors got replaced by feelings how looking on them felt cause that was the best my brain could do with that experience. That makes my believe that there is a world outside our brains.

quote:Originally posted by Kazbadan

Well, i´m trying to give ideas. I´m waiting for more.

I thinked a little too in something that someone here has sayed: the experience it would proof only something to me or the ones involved in the experiment. We should try to overpass that situation in some manner.

Give ideas...

I think your idea is cool. We need one or two persons setting a target I would suggest OverDriven since he seems to be  very sceptical. Then we need at least two good projectors, I'm not good by the way. I would try a LD though. Then I would suggest that we do at least two experiments. Of course that would not proof something behind any doubt like Jeff masch said, it's not possible. But at least it would be fun and proove something to the persons involved. If nobody is partiziping I go for the 50 Dollars []. No I won't but We could do the number thing then without money[]

quote:Originally posted by OverDriven

quote:Originally posted by tombodenmann


It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$

Well I guess you didn't read my whole post. I am posting evidence both supporting and not supporting OBE. On the other hand, I have yet to see you post ANY evidence against it, and all your evidence has been for the support of real OBE's. So I'll turn your question back on you. Why have you only posted supporting evidence, and not even aknowledged evidence opposing your view? You seem almost threatened by the idea that OBE may not be real, hence your defensiveness about this topic. If you want to know my personal opinion, its that OBE's are in fact real experiences where consciousness leaves the body. But I will not rule out any evidence, and am not afraid of any evidence pointing in the other direction. I have my mind open to the possibility that we are imagining all of this, and hence am posting any evidence I can find.

It wasn't my goal to show both sides of the phenomenon but to search for proofes. Your critics are welcome though.

quote:Originally posted by OverDriven
So you think that a theory that your energy body resonance is changing and you are slipping from your body and becomeing a "ghost" in some other dimension is a more plausable thoery? Have you hear of Occam's razor? If not, find it and read it. What I stated was in fact not a theory at all...its a scientifically proven fact that the nervous system shuts down during sleep. This is what causes sleep paralysis...the brain can no longer fire impulses to the muscles. The reason you can wake up from an alarm clock or feel something on your toe is because the brain re-activates the nerves upon strong enough stimulation souch as sound or touch. As I stated in my original post, I would like OBE to be real too, and I think that it might be...but I will post all evidence supporting or not supporting it.

I wonder if the ear nerves shuting down theorie is your own or if you have some bachup for that. Cause what I learned the ear nerves do not shut down at all, but the brain filters the sound in order to go to sleep. However the ear stays alert the whole night and whenever a strange noise occurs the brain can quickly start to normally operate. This also fits with experience very well. For example a lot of people including myself are able to hear their partner breath while having a LD!!!!
As I already told you when I induce An oBE from a LD I experience the vibrations without waking up! Now explain that...
It seems to me that you do not objective judge but instead search for evidence to support your world view.$
Is it really so logic to believe in an materialistic world when almost all religions and "primitiv communities believe in  an existence independent from the brain?
Also you do completly ignore post like that done by manuel. Do you think he's lying or what is your reasoning behind that?

That was the kind of posts I was hoping for! Thanks manuel!
Anybody else? Don't be shy now...

quote:Originally posted by OverDriven


5. The "vibes" of separation are exactly the same feeling you get when your nervous system shuts down. The rushing in the ears is the sound you hear when the nerves in your ears begin to shut down as well. This points to the fact that these exit sensations are nothing more than our body preparing us for sleep. It is a well known fact that almost all of the bodys nerves do shut down during sleep. We are just forcing ourselves to stay conscious of these sensations. It seems as though the vibes are not caused by our resonance changing or anything like that.

I think this theorie is pretty weak[]

1. If your ear nerves would shut down during sleep your alarm clock wouldn't be able to wake you in the morning, wouldn't it?

2. If your body nerves would shut down, You wouldn't feel if somebody is chewing on your feet, which would be rather impractical. And which is obviously not true as well.

3. If I have a LD and I end it. I can feel a movement to my sleeping body, Which doesn't make much sense if the whole dream would only be in my brain. Then when I stay completely calm the vibrations start immediately, which doesn't fit with your theorie cause my nerves would already be shut down then, since I'm in the middle of sleep.

The vibrations remain a mysterie.

the near death side really is very interessting!
Here's a post on the card experiment: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1360&SearchTerms=card,trick

Kazbadan: I understand your point of view very well and basically do agree with you.
One exception though. The statement "dreams are not real" is kind of dangerous, meaning it's misleading. Do you know Lucid dreams? There's a smooth transition between: Dream->Lucid Dream->OBE->Near Death experiences->Waking Life. It's a question of awarness, I believe.
You can't just say dreams are not real. What does real mean anyway? Is a daydream real? You are canstantly driftimg away into fantasies during day, so is your waking life real? If you become Lucid in a dream you discover that the dream feels as real as waking Life. That's why I said, I want proof that it is possible to visit the physical world during OBE. I think thats a better question then asking wether OBE are real or not.

I can understand that some of you don't care for that kind of proof, but at least there seem to be a number of people that do so.
I for myself think it's very thrilling to do these kinds of tests. My thinking is simple: If it's really possible to leave the body behind (what I want to believe!) and visit other worlds. it must be possible to proof that.
I had 2 ObE's myself including the vibrations and the feeling of separation, So I'm goal isn't to proof that all of it is made up or something.
But some of us, maybe to more materialistic thinking, really want to know what really is going on.

Well I got lucid last night. I demanded to see the location of the girl when looking behind the next corner. I had  to fight to got there cause something was holding myself back, I manged to do it though. I saw a very noble looking living room with a chemineé, the color was goldish, orange. There was an old woman inside the room age about 60-70 years. I felt fear. There was also a little child there, that tried to communicate with me, I had problems to stay lucid. Before weaking up I tried one more time to get something: I felt Cornflakes and fear of death.
A the whole dream was very strange indeed. Don't know if there's any useful information contained. My mind wasn't very clear, so it's likely that all of it was nonsense. I thought I post it anyways.
Possible interpretations:
-Girl ran away cause she's pregnant
-Girl is being kept at a house of a rich family
-Girl was killed in the morning
Anyways I don't think it's too smart to interprete much here.
I might try again .

Anybody??

No luck yet

O.k. I try my best!

Good Post.

Thanks for the replies! Isn't it funny how hard it seems to be, to get that kind of proof?

To Euphoric Sunrise: I know that experiment, I tried it myself. It didn't work though. I'll certainly try again. Did you ever succesfully do it?

To stephen~: Yeah, thats at least something. You should try it again.


AndrewTheSinger: Thanks for sharing the experience: These are the kinds of experiences I'm looking for. I had a LD once where I saw a light switch in our house at a very strange place. Next day I checked the place and the wall really looked like a lighning switch there. But of course thats no proof maybe my brain had stored that info in the subconscious. Whats the story with the girl? Where can I read something about it? I'll  try to help!

To Risu no Kairu: I agree it's clearly a real phenomenom, I had a OBE myself. I do not wanna judge what is real. I just wanna know what really happens. There are various reasons why proofs matter:
-I'm curious
-the better you understand something the better you can use it. What could be bad about knowing as much as possible about OBE's? It helps me interprete the experience if I know as much as possible about the cause of it.
-I want to know if I'm really walking thru our neighbours has our if it just a fantasie, is that so hard to understand? Lets assume you see a beautyful girl during an OBE. Don't you wanna know if she's really alive?[]

at least you got the number right, we have 4 cats. Now you should focus on the name

Did you have any luck yet? I wasn't able to figure something out so far.....

I'll certainly look at my feet next time to see what happens. Hopefully I don't pass a mirror since that would lead to a complete melting of myself [xx(]

Sure I agree but that would more point in the direction that in some peoples dreams hands melt and in  others not, cause they give different "subconscious" orders, wouldn't it? But in reality hands seem to melt almost in anybody dream. Isn't that strange? have you heard of Robert Bruces theorie about why hand melt in dreams? He thinks that the sunconscious can't accept seeing ones hand  cause it somehow knows that our hand is not real, but our real body is in bed. Thats seems kind of strange to me. What about you? does your hand melt in dreams?
cheers Tom

quote:Originally posted by mustard

. Your hand melted because you wanted it to melt(subconsciencly).

How do you mean that. Alot of people report of their hands melting. It seems do be a good way to seperate OBE from LD. Why should I (Or for that matter most people) want my hand to melt? I'm facinated by that fact that hands seem to melt in dreams in most peoples LD. Yours don't then. Do you have any insight in that matter?
Thanks Tom

I think giving the name and place is more or less useless since it shouldn't make much difference for the subconscious if it knows the name of the other person.
If you like you can try to figure the name of my sick cat. just ask for the name to read it on the wall or something while having a LD. I'll ask for your mother if I remember it ; )

Yeah I know Zelda ; ) I'll try to to get more in control. You know, my main problem is not to control my LD. I think thats something I'll figure out with practice, but what I really have trouble with is getting LD on a daily basis. Thats what I really aim for but I seem to be stucked in a blind alley.
I can't really decide which technique I should use. Shall I look for dreamsigns, or tell myself to have a LD while falling asleep or use a different technique. Often I try to combine techniques but then I seem to get confused. Usually I try to induce a LD with no sucess and then after about 5 days I finally have one followed again by a couple of days with no sucess. Thats pretty strenuous! Must be cool to have a LD almost every night. Did it take long for you to get to this stage, or are you a naturally gifted person?
BTW I write my dreams down more or less every day.

O.k I told myself several times during the day that there are no transcendental/supernatural things. I didn't really believed that it made a huge impact, mainly cause I couldn't really decide if I truely believe in ghosts and things like that or not (Would it for example  also be possible to convince me , that there are no dogs and then use the same technique to dream of dogs and then become lucid??)Do you use this technique frequently? how many LD's do you have?

Anyway, the following night I had two lucid dreams! Although I didn't dream of ghosts or any thing supernatural, at least as far as I can remember. So I can't really tell if I did it right and if it worked, but since I has two LD I guess something went right. Unfortunately I can't remember my LD very well. But I remember that I looked at my hand, observing like it melted away, then I tried to remember what day of the week we have. First I came up with wednesday but I knew it wasn't right, so I pulled myself toghether and realize that it was Sunday. Then I didn't know what else to do, which I admit is pretty sad ; ) Any suggestions for my next LD?

I think I got it. ; )