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No_leaf_clover:

Perhaps I should have been more clear, in that I wasnt refering to you or your post, but rather to the more gullable types that may be attracted to your '2012' reference and then set off a new chain of 'demon war' twoddle which we all had to endure a while back, as i'm sure you remember!

Doug

Whats worrying but typically human is that there are plenty people out there who are*desperate* for such 'end of the world' scenarios to be true, as they are so unhappy with aspects of their own lives that they wish more than anything for something to come along and shake things up.. apocalypses, demon wars, vibration changes and so on fit the bill.

The good news is, that radical change *can* come about, but that change comes from within, not without... change yourself, and you will find no more need of aplocalypse fantasies to see you through the day.

Doug

please not '2012' and 'demon wars' again... NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Doug.

PS For the 'demon war' brigade:  instead of reading suspect websites and dodgy manga inspired nonsense, people might want to check out the facts about the *actual* Mayan calender and then they will be sorely disapointed that there is in fact no 'demon wars' or 'apocalypses'.. in fact, yes it is the end of a particular cycle and the start of another one.. but the Mayan calender was full of such cycles and thats all it is.. a calender.. sorry guys to disapoint your apocalypse fantasies which you are all so desperate to believe!

I think this is all just rhetoric from the bush administration.

This is because Iraq has been such a mess and so much more difficult than Bush ever thought it would be (remember the ineptly named 'mission acomplished' speech anyone?), that anything on a similar scale for iran is completely out of the question.

This war has actually shown the military limitations of the US more than anything.. the US military is already stretched to breaking point by Iraq and there is no way they could possibly afford to wage the same level of conflict in iran at the same time.. impossible.
That was probably the original plan, i'm sure, but iraq is turning out to be so costly, both in terms of money and lives, that a full scale attack of iran or even syria is totally out of the queston.. the army simply couldnt handle two iraqs on the go at the same time.

So they are resorting to secondary tactics, which is scare-mongering... only i dont think its really that scary... perhaps worst case scenario, they might afford to spare a few missile launches and air attacks on certain alleged facilities within the country, but thats about it.


As for Blair joining Bush again for Iran, I think that if he went for this a second time the British people really would lynch him!

Doug

PS Also,  taking potshots at Iran and Syria is not exactly what i call a sound strategy when you are trying to bring stability to Iraq. Have they ever bothered to look at the geography of the region? Iran shares one of the biggest borders with Iraq, with Syria close behind...  You need to be cultivating safe borders and a positive relationship with Iraq's neigbours if you want any hope of stopping suicide bombers and other fanatics from getting through, but US swaggering at Iran and Syria isnt going to help, in fact by doing that you will just create a situation that allows more of these people to slip through, while the Iranian and Syrian government do little to stop it. And if you think an all out invasion is going to help you've got another thing coming.. most likely an all out jihad.. not the best strategy under the circumstances.

I think a lot of people dont realise that there is a massive difference between Iraq an Iran. Far from all the crud about connections between al-queda and Iraq, the reality was that Iraq was a secular military dictatorship, that in fact fundamentalists like Bin Laden etc actually hated! They detested Sadam and Bathists as infidels and not proper muslims.
Iran on the other hand is an *islamic state*.. attack that and you are attacking Islam.. a WHOLE different kettle of fish.. the US is stirring the hornets nest with this strategy!

Excellent story: thanks for sharing!

Doug

yes, 'mind split effect' is very common in real time obe's to the physical world (rtz) as discussed by Robert Bruce.

Basically, while most of your 'focus' or awareness is now centred on the secondary energy vehicle.. the so called astral body, which really only exists for the duration of the experience.. part of your focus is still centred upon your physical self. I think that RB is probably correct in thinking that this is for issues of security, ie if anything comes too close to your physical body as to pose a danger... then your focus is 100% focused back to your physical self right away.

However because your focus is actually centred on two areas for this duration, there is a possibility of both focus points becoming aware of each other.. leading to a feedback effect which is uncomfortable to say the least. however, this effect is easy to avoid if you dont hang around right next to your physical body for any length of time or examine it for too long.. RB has found that physical and astral sight seems to be key here in triggering the effect so, basically if you avoid staring at your physical body for any great length of time, then you will be fine.

Hope this helps,

Doug

A great post Telos and Frank! This is the quality stuff that makes the forums great imo!

I was wondering about 'guides': while many of these are alternate aspects of ourselves other 'focuses' do you also get some guides or helpers or however you want to label their job descrption,  who are unconnected with us, ie not other aspects of ourselves but completely seperate (although not in the wider sense of consciousness where everything is connected of course, but in the more specific sense)?

Anyway, great post Telos... sounds like you are making great progress.. If you aim to go 'higher' as it were, to Monroe's f27, then you and I could compare notes. Specifically, i wonder if you can find your way to what i call the 'green fields region' (or the 'Elysium fields' if you're the romantic type!); or what is called by the no-frills brigade as 'the park'.

You will find it quite recognisible with rolling green hills blues skies and the sun shining (sometimes with a wonderful sunset effect in my experience). In fact the Windows xp 'bliss' wallpaper is not unlike it haha

There you will find groups of people sitting around in groups, with whom you may find youself recognising, as i did, even although i have no idea who they are lol. Such a contact can be very profound and lead to a whole new world opening up!

Doug

I have to say this guy is completely nuts and suffers from delusions of grandeur.. I would recommend you stop this nonsense as soon as possible as you are only embarrassing yourself... one day you will look back on this and *cringe* with embarrassment.  Stop it now and perhaps apologize and then we can all move on.. you really do not have any idea how immature you are coming across as!

Doug

haha well that is a HUGE subject and really not the subject of this post, which if you dont mind I want to get back onto the subject of astral consciousness and ghost phenomenom.

However for a basic rundown of  the immediate situation beyond our physical reality (the afterlife) i would recomend reading Bruce Moen's website http://www.afterlife-knowledge.com/what.html

I know, you are thinking... god not another website.. but this one gives a quick rundown and is well worth reading for the basics and will get you started, i would recomend it!

Doug

yeah.. luckily most of it is in junk food so if there is one positive effect then it might encourage people to eat healthier.

The amounts of this 'cancer inducing' chemical are TINY though and not anything to worry about really, even if you have eaten those products, but people are still getting hysterical.

One of the funniest things I heard was in my local corner shop when someone said 'no way i am eating those chilli flavour crisps'..... 'oh can I have 10 regal king size please, while your there'.

DOH!

Doug

Well, I would be *very* careful about who you tell about your OBE/astral interest as many people are not as understanding of the topic as they are here, in fact if you get used to talking about it here it can lull you into a false sense of security. There is still a lot of hysteria about the whole subject and if you lived in some conservative bible belt area for example, I would be VERY careful about who you talk to, otherwise you might find yourself alienated, or subjected to forced prayer sessions to 'cure' you from straying from the 'right path'. Always be sure that the individual is open enough to accept the idea BEFORE hand.. I can't stress this enough, as I have been burned in the past! (although not literally hehe).

Doug

I've notice this also. I wonder what percentage of people on this forum are from different countries around the world? That would be interesting data...

Well, this forum is an international forum, it does not belong to any particular country as such. Although Robert Bruce, the OBE author, whose site this forum compliments, is of course Australian himself and I guess you could say it started in Australia!

I'm not sure I would agree that most of those on the forum are Australian. In fact I would say in recent years, the percentage of Americans has increased and they appear to form the majority at the moment, although it can change.

At the moment, we get people from Australia, UK, USA, Canada, India, Turkey, Poland and Sweden, just to name a few!

Doug

I wont give you a link but I will tell you to go to the astral faq section where Frank has an extensive article on the basics of how to 'phase'.
You should read it!

Douglas

Knucklebrain... don't worry we ALL dream, without exception.. Its just that some of us don't remember many of them.. some people, like yourself, can't remember ANY of them.

You need to train yourself to be able to recall your dreams, start with a dream journal, keep a notepad and pen by your bed.

You are probably thinking, what will that do, but you will find that the very act of doing that will begin the drive of intent for you to start remembering your dreams.. then everytime you wake up, jot anything you remember down, no matter how small, but you must do it right away, dont wait until morning because you will have forgotten again.

Over time you will remember more and more of your dreams.

This is how I did it!

Doug

Clandestino_

Yes.. this is the angle I take. Moen talks about how ghosts can be so focused on physical reality that they can manifest in physical reality..
But what if it is the other way round and it is US who in certain circumstances are able to perceive other astral scenarios.

Hauntings are said to occur in cases of severe emotional disturbance, ie a murder, suicide and so on.. It may be that  this leaves an 'imprint' on the enviroment, and this imprint can cause an effect on certain individuals, shifting their mind slightly 'out of phase' as it were with the physical, so that the 'ghost' is perceived, overlaying the surounding enviroment.

Some recent research has shown that in areas of hauntings, there is a higher magnetic field than normal, which may have the effect of pulling people 'out of phase' so that they can perceive other realities (similar to the research in which magnetic fields have been used to induce obe experiences).
However, unlike the scientists who try to use this to prove that all 'ghosts' and obes are illusions of the mind, i would suggest that the magnetic effect is real enough but that its effect on the brain is to weaken the interface between mind and brain, allowing perception of other realities.

Perhaps it is the scene of an extreme emotional incident, like a murder, suicide etc that sometimes actually *causes* this altered magnetic field..
you then have a resulting 'haunted location'

Doug

Yes. the obvious snippet you mention there is a very basic point that neuro-scientists who want to 'de-bunk' obes consistantly fail to take into account, although it seems kind of obvious to me!

Doug

What are 'ghosts'? Why is this a subject for 'astral consciousness' I hear you ask?

Well, I have seen some weird s**t myself in the past and my ex-girlfriend saw her own fully fledged classic ghost a couple of years ago too, so I have little doubt that the phenomenon is real, but what is causing it?

Bruce Moen has a very good idea, which is neatly tied up with his retrieval knowledge (extract taken from his website):

Ghosts are real. The following is condensed from my second book, Voyage Beyond Doubt

"Several times a year I get calls from someone concerned about a ghostly presence they're aware of, usually in their home. Some callers are frantic, worried the ghost might do them harm. Others are more concerned for the welfare of a ghost. There are some simple things anyone can do to permanently move a ghost out of their house. Before getting to them, let's cover some basics and hopefully clear up a few misconceptions.

First, the most important thing to know is that ghosts are just human beings not living in physical bodies. These are people just like you and me. Like people everywhere, ghosts can be friendly, scary, smart, stupid and everything in between, but they're just people.

Second, at its most basic, the reason you can be aware of a ghost is because its attention is focused at the level of physical world reality. There can be many reasons why ghosts do this. They may be unaware they're dead and staying close to familiar surroundings or people. They may be aware of their death, but confused about what they're supposed to do. Some ghosts may have a message they want to give someone still living in the physical world. There are lots of reasons why a ghost's attention may be focused at the level of physical world reality, but that focus of attention is what brings them to your awareness and keeps them here.

Third, you have nothing to fear from a ghost. Despite what Hollywood horror films would have us believe, such a person is not a threat to you. Projecting your own fear onto a ghost can certainly appear to give evidence to the contrary. Too many people I work with bought into Hollywood's fear-inducing images, and are scared out of their wits, thus adding to their problem.

Fourth, there are Helpers living in the nonphysical world who will gladly assist you in your attempt to move a ghost along. All you have to do is ask. Often the Helper is someone actively trying to assist the ghost, but unable to reach him. Sometimes there's a Helper waiting to move a specific ghost. The Afterlife abounds with Helpers willing to volunteer their assistance wherever such an opportunity presents itself."

So again, yes, ghosts are real. They're just human beings stuck in Focus 23 close enough to physical world reality that some of us are able to perceive them.

Bruce Moen


Do you agree with his theory?

I think it fits the bill, at least for some cases, what do others think?

Douglas
______________________

Tom_

The voice or apparition telling the individual to turn back was most likely a fear projection.. it was their own fears manifesting their concern about 'moving too far' which must be bothering the individual on some level, even if they didnt realise it.

This kind of manifestation of desires/fears is very common in the astral.

To put it simply.. there are no barriers to progress other than what you put there yourself.

Doug

Sorry to hear about your experience Mustardseed.. i guess you get those types in any religion... the question begs itself: where is the love aspect?

Doug

Before giveing any specific answers it might help to expand on what you mean by 'psi' as that is so vague a term as to mean anything..
Any vision of god could be called 'psi'.. its a slightly corny term as well... sounds a bit Marvel Comics to me

Doug

I wouldnt worry about the 'dweller' myth.. thats what it is.. of course if you really want to perceive a manifestation of all your fears all bundled up into one,  then that is what you will see.. but thats the crazy way to get over your fears as it may drive you nuts...

Slow steady progress is the way to go these days.. and one day all your fears will be gone.. the only blockage to infinite progress!

Forget the 'dweller' stories.... that model is old hat these days and certainly not recommended.

Douglas

Hi guys, sorry don't have long at the moment, but just to try to clarify what i mean by phasing to rtz:

When we arrive in the usual focus state whereupon we begin seeing images from other levels of consciousness, these are for the most part snapshots of different astral enviroments which you can then choose to step into them ie 'phasing'.

However, quite a few times, the snapshots i get appear to be quite obviously from the rtz itself, eg my bedroom, somewhere else in the house, outside ony local highstreet and so on. if i step into these i am then flying around in a typical 'obe state' around my house, outside etc in a bog standard obe type experience, only I have completley missed out on all the usual 'energy raising', 'seperation' and all the other stuff that goes along with standard obe techniques.
Now you might say: 'but the whole point of phasing is to focus AWAY from the physical, and you'd be right. How I think this works is this: You have to 'go there to come back'. That is, you have to focus away from the physical until you are on a different level of awareness required for normal phasing practice.. however you then place the intent to goto the rtz but what happens is rather than just 'wake up' again you go back to the rtz BUT FOCUSED AWAY FROM YOUR BODY ie 'out of body'. in order to do this, your awareness automatically generates a temporary energy interface to allow you to focus on the physical enviroment away from your body..Perhaps this energy comes from your physical body, lending some truth to the old 'etheric energy' idea. this is what they call your 'astral body' but it is used for the rtz only and only exists for as long as you are there, afterwhich it disapates. I would also say that this sounds fairly complicated but this all seems to happen automatically so you dont really have to worry about it.

In the rtz i usually have a body but not always, sometimes i feel that i am just a ball of energy.

So this has led me to believe that the rtz can be accessed through phasing techniques just as other levels can be, and that this is much easier than standard obe practice.
This has led me to wonder what difference there really is between the rtz and other astral enviroments. there must be some because in the rtz i cannot interact with anything, whereas in other levels of consciousness i can.
This has implications for 'astral bodies' for example, as i mentioned earlier. how do we perceive the rtz without our physical bodies as receivers? our awareness or focus must generate a temporary energy interface in order to perceive the physical, away from our bodies.. this 'astral interface' is what is normally described as your astral body, but it is just a temporary construct. So RBs techniques are fine.. standard energy raising techniques are the usual means for creating this shell or astral body;
all i'm saying is: for those of you who are interested in rtz explorations, but are rubbish at standard obe techniques (like me) but ARE ok at phasing.. well you can use phasing instead. and it would appear that through phasing your 'body' is generated automatically with no effort on your part at all!

Doug

PS
But before I get too pleased with this discovery: what if im not in the rtz at all? Maybe i just think I am, but in reality i am in an astral construct of my own design which just happens to look exactly like my rtz enviroment...
in which case my whole theory blows away in the wind haha.. and i am not in the rtz at all... go back to standard obe techniques if you want to explore the rtz!
This is a possiblity, which i thought i would mention before anyone else does, but i would say that my explorations of the rtz recently have gone a long wy to convincing me that i am indeed in the rtz

Telos:

I once heard somenone say (again on an anthropology course when you really get to see the relative nature of different social belief structures), that 'even if 'science' is another belief sytem, along with all the others we have talked about, I would  choose science as a belief system over any other.. any time any where!'


Its definatly the best, because as Frank says it is the only 'belief system' that, through its methodology, can offer the *potential* for discovering Truth about our universe and our reality, our local one and our greater one. But this can only happen if scientists get out of the endless loop of bowing to peer pressure and the rotting core eating away at science nowadays, caused by research aimed at coming to certain conclusions purely to please funding bodies.

The way ahead is to use scientific approach but in new ways. I would say that Monroe is an excellent example of how a scentific yet open minded approach can work wonders.
If we really did all adopt such an approach that was scientific in methodology yet also placed the highest priority on individual experience in order to fully understand the implications of whats being researched, then I would say yes, this 'new science' IS the way forward.

Doug

Also as the concept of satan is a christian concept anyway, (or more accuratly, a concept from late judaism whch then influenced christianity and islam), there is really no difference in who has killed more. Anyone who acknowledges satan is a product of christianity in any case, as it is through christianity that they first encountered 'Satan', so all this debate about 'who killed more' is a moot point.
How many people has christianity killed is a more accurate point. or how many people has religion killed even better.
or how about how many people has science killed?

Doug

Hi Major Tom!

Good point you make. As i say i think you DO automatically generate some form of energy 'body' or interface to be more accurate for rtz., but via phasing this is done automatically without you even thinking about it, while conciously generating it using standard techniques i find too difficult.. i guess it comes down to the individual because there are those who find the standard technique of generating an energy body much easier than phasing so it works for them... and once out it is much easier to enter the astral proper, at which point i think the energy body is probably dissapated as it is no longer needed once you leave the rtz.

As for the 'dweller' idea, this is just an old myth.. it is simply a personification of all your fears.. but saying that everyone HAS to confront this is just a metaphor for saying that everyone has to deal with thier own fears.. which is true.. but slow steady progress is the way to do it.. not generating some astral scenario where ALL your fears hit you full on.. this would drive you nuts.. whoever orginally came up with that idea needs their head examined.

Doug