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An excerpt from "The song of the happy shepherd" by W.B. Yeats:

Of all the many changing things
In dreary dancing past us whirled,
To the cracked tune that Chronos sings,
Words alone are certain good.
Where are now the warring kings,
Word be-mockers? - By the Rood,
Where are now the watring kings?
An idle word is now their glory,
By the stammering schoolboy said,
Reading some entangled story:
The kings of the old time are dead;
The wandering earth herself may be
Only a sudden flaming word,
In clanging space a moment heard,
Troubling the endless reverie.

I'd do a search as there has been some quite lengthy discussions on this subject .
But regarding souls, I don't believe we have them. I more agree with the following philosophy:
"We havent got a soul, we are a soul".

But as Jilola said above, the word soul is pretty ambiguous and seems more an idea then anything else. I'd be interested to know the origin of the whole 'soul' idea.

i have recently started with CSM (clinically standardized meditation) developed by dr. patricia carrington. It's been only 10 days so i cannot say much.

Hi malganis,

How are you finding it so far? I ask as when I first started to learn about meditation I bought a pack on CSM which included audio tabes and a book. If i'm honest, I didn't give it long enough back then to see how effective it is.

My advice to anyone starting out with meditation is to check out the following book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0749913282/026-1471947-1498816

It gets to the core of it without adding dogma or philosophies, and will have you meditating to a high standard quickly.
A lot of what I come across online misrepresents what meditation is, and some is actually not meditation. It's more relaxed daydreaming.

But the above book is one of the best I have come across for people new to meditation.

Robert Bruce said he intends to "prove it" in 2007 with the help of scientists, I believe... I have high expectations for that

Has Robert indicated how he's going to do this? I look forward to it anyway .

What makes you think this "energy" is detectable by modern equipment? Also is this "energy" a constant? If it fluctuates normally then how would you know what a change means.

If this energy exists, and if this energy has the properties attributed to it by advocates of the subtle body philosophies, it should be detectable. It's an energy which completely permeates the physical body; it has places where it is so noticeable that sticking a needle into that point creates effects on the physical (acupuncture). So either physical instruments can interact with it (the needle) or acupuncture has it's mechanics in physical means rather than in the energy body.
Also, this energy cannot be subtle since it can completely dominate the physical form allowing complete control and interaction on every level with the body and brain. This shows it's not like some of the most subtle particles we know in physics which barely interact with matter, this ethric stuff seems to fully permeate matter and interact with it completely. I'm quite shocked we haven't discovered it already, especially as many projectors state electricity interacts with their ethric body in interesting ways.

Then Finally assume there is a change in energy (whatever kind it may be) how would this prove OOBEs?

If an energy can be detected leaving the body, moving around in external reality in a seemingly conscious manner (such as moving to set points, doing certain actions), and then returning to the body – I'm sure this would be noticed by the scientific community. And I for one would see it as a kind of proof.
But I have a feeling such energy will never be found as its part of the creative visualisation (astral), and has no physical reality. But I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and have to change this viewpoint .

Personally I think OOBEs are like most psi phenomena and you need to experience it to believe it.

But even experiencing various paranormal/psi phenomenon does not prove its validity. I hate to say this, but many people take very natural and normal phenomenon to be paranormal simply because they can't see the natural mechanics behind it, or how it could have its roots in the reality we know. Too many people believe philosophies and ideologies far to easily based upon a personnel perception and no real thought behind how else it could have occurred.

I've been asking these questions for years, but have no answers yet  .
People usually tell me it's impossible to scientifically verify, yet, if the ethric/astral body exist, they quite easily interact with physical matter (body and brain), so you would have thought it would be detectable to a degree.
My current view is that the ethric/astral (and other subtle bodies/energy systems) are belief systems. Such as repeated tactile visualisation of movement evoking the 'memory' of tactile sensation, this is interpreted as energy movement, and is reinforced over time. Another example is that I currently believe chakras are created through visualisation and abstract associations are made between the physical, psyche and this new 'structure' i.e. we don't have inherent energy systems (meridian point and chakras very closely match nerve placement and the endocrine system), but we can build them through belief and use them as a tool.
Where am I going with this? I believe there are no 'external' energy movements or effects by which to detect OBE (I think it's an internal phenomenon – this doesn't detract from it as even our interaction with 'external reality' is really internal) and our best hope would be to indirectly gain evidence of the OBE phenomenon. But to do this, we need people who can consistently exit on will, which seems a near impossibility in itself .

Interesting assessments.

That would explain why I can't seem to go anywhere fast during my OBEs. As soon as I start to zoom at a pace quicker than running, I am immediately back in the physical.

And would also explain why I can't fly yet. Although I can levitate.  And float around slowly.

The realisation I had during the OBE just felt like a 'known' which I had forgotten. I was looking out of a window in the RTZ (it was the house I grew up in), and everything was super detailed. I then stood up and flew through the window and immediately lucidity faded (it was actually like lucidity started to fade with the intention to fly – so it happened milliseconds before I actually put the flying thoughts into action). Thinking of this just caused déjà vu from last night . I think I had an experience, but can't fully focus on what it was  :confused: .

The 'RTZ' OBE is a real enigma in my opinion. It doesn't seem to fit any logic, neither can I "box" it, as it seems that my experiences are much more fluid than stable.

I've also had that knowledge that I've had a shedload more experiences than initially thought. I believe I have OBEs on a much more regular basis, but they are housed within dreams and I remember tiny snippets of them, for example rolling around inside my physical body and getting to the edge of the bed, and then either BAM, I'm back, or I lose conscious. It makes me wonder whether we do "get out" every time we sleep. Of course, it's all speculation.  

I also think RTZ OBEs can send you potty if you think about them too much...  

Sarah

Yeah. I have a lot of half remembered/felt experiences, but I usually don't class them as OBEs because I'm not 100% certain they were.
Something I've also noticed is that I seem to have a lot of 'paranormal' experiences in the hypnogogic stage, but it's almost like my mind can't see them. A few days back I had a detailed discussion with a woman's voice, yet, when I realised what I was doing, the experience immediately faded.
I have a theory that I've taught myself to 'ignore' these experiences through the use of techniques which actively ask you to ignore hypnogogics /clear the mind/stare into the blackness. Over time, we notice fewer hypnogogics than we did (they are still there, we just don't see them). I'm actively trying to reverse this now .
It seems there is a tremendous amount of experience which we are actively participating in, but the conscious mind and external stimulus wash over it.
A recent experience I had was suddenly becoming aware in an AP sense of flying. From lying in bed I was flying with wind rushing past me, and I seemed to realise that I (or parts of me) could be doing other things to the 'me' typing this now. But once again, much of it is missed.

That was fantastic . It reminded me of the book "The naked ape" (by Desmond Morris), which is a zoological view of the human 'animal'. Very good read .

Earlier this afternoon I went OBE. During the OBE I was inundated with memories (and Déjà vu symptoms) which seem to detail countless OBEs I had forgotten during waking consciousness. They were nothing amazing, but seemed to suggest I have a lot more experiences under my belt than I usually remember.
I also seemed to discover (at least part of) a reason why some of my OBEs end, or aren't accessible to waking memory. It had to do with doing 'non-normal' activities while OBE, and waking day conditioning (i.e. we cannot fly etc) conflicting. It seemed my OBEs on the whole would be stable until I started to fly, which sometimes would see an immediate return to body, or lessening of lucidity. It also seemed that I forgot a lot of such experiences.
I'm not sure if there is any truth to this, but it might be interesting to explore it .

A slightly 'soppy' one now :

Love Song For A Vampire - Annie Lennox

Come into these arms again
and lay your body down
The rhythm of this trembling heart
is beating like a drum
It beats for you it bleeds for you
it knows not how it sounds
For it is the drum of drums
it is the song of songs

Once I had the rarest rose
that ever deemed to bloom
Cruel winter chilled the bud
and stole my flower too soon
Oh loneliness Oh hopelessness
to search the ends of time
For there is in all the world
no greater love than mine.

Love o love o .... still falls the rain
Love o love o .... still falls the night
Love o love o .... damned forever

Let me be the only one
to keep you from the cold
Now the floor of heaven is laid
the stars are bright as gold
They shine for you they shine for you
they burn for all to see
Come into these arms again
and set this spirit free



Ps Frankie Goes to Hollywood - "The Power of Love" is great too.

"Kashmir" - Led Zeplin

Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen
They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealed

Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace, whose sounds caress my ear
But not a word I heard could I relate, the story was quite clear
Oh, oh.

Oh, I been flying... mama, there ain't no denyin'
I've been flying, ain't no denyin', no denyin'

All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground
And my eyes fill with sand, as I scan this wasted land
Trying to find, trying to find where I've been.

Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream
Heed the path that led me to that place, yellow desert stream
My Shangri-La beneath the summer moon, I will return again
Sure as the dust that floats high in June, when movin' through Kashmir.

Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails, across the sea of years
With no provision but an open face, along the straits of fear
Ohh.

When I'm on, when I'm on my way, yeah
When I see, when I see the way, you stay-yeah

Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, when I'm down...
Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well I'm down, so down
Ooh, my baby, oooh, my baby, let me take you there

Let me take you there. Let me take you there

I have friends who go there and would definately like to visit one day.

Thanks 007, I might check this out. I remember watching the UK series which described the experiments on goats (with video footage).

I've only ever heard of experiments by Dr. MacDougall who weighed dead people. It gave birth to the famous "the soul weights 21 grams" idea. The problem is, only a few of the bodies he weighed showed signs of loss, one actually gained weight, and his findings have not been reproduced.
So I guess its pretty inconclusive if this weight loss is due to the soul leaving the body.
Also, as far as I am aware, there has not been a recorded case of such weight loss during a NDE.

So the body might not lose weight during death, NDE or OBE as the findings to date are based on a few cases of an experiment which hasn't been reproduced.

I agree with the above. As long as you are in a position which allows the breath to flow freely, and causes no tensions in the body, thats all that matters.
I either meditate in a high backed chair with a blanket draped over it (to make it comfortable) or on a jumbo sized bean bag.
I gave up meditating lieing down as it more often than not leads to sleep .

character:  Sponge Bob  65% friendliness

haha .

I don't think that this enlightenment is a holy grail.

What I meant by this is that people have exagerated and added conjecture to what they percieve enlightenment to be. So now, to many people, enlightenment seems like a great prize after a long journy.

I agree with what you say though .

so there is no change.

As far as I know, Enlightenment is simply the observation and joy of moment-to-moment awareness. Being 'awake' in the 'NOW'. It's not a state which can be chased or gained, it just 'IS'.
I think over time people have turned the concept of enlightenment into a holy grail.

The quote from Wu Li (posted above) captures this.

If I remember words from dreams I usually Google them . Most of the time nothing interesting comes up though .

The last two nights have seen Squid/Octopus like creatures playing a central role in one of my dreams from each night.
Two nights ago, the dream with the creature concerned some form of ancient 'temple'. Although it was ancient, it looked amazingly new. The walls were an aqua colour, and I found myself with another man in an anti-chamber to a central room. The antechamber had an open doorway on one side (the ceilings were high up, and the door reached from the floor to the ceilings), and hanging from its roof had been a strange sort of 'chandelier'. It looked circular (a small tube shape) and its centre had contained spikes of material. The material was something special (I don't know anything more than that). The spikes faced into the central chamber, almost aiming at a recess in the back wall which seemed to be a throne.
I say this device had been hanging from the ceiling because on our arrival, something had triggered it (I think a worm hole opening near it (more worm holes! )) and it had shot the spikes at the creature which had occupied the throne.
The man with me was horrified, as the creature was supposedly ancient too (I had no idea if it was good or evil, but I had the slight feeling it might be good that it was dead). I did know that normal weapons could not kill this creature, it actually was pretty unkillable.
The creature itself was a large octopus, it was a sort of medium blue colour, bit its head was shaped different it had seemed to be very intelligent.
We walked into the central chamber to find it actually contained about 5 feet of water, pillars were dotted around. Dolphins were swimming though the water, jumping out and generally playing. They were telling me things (which I can't remember now).
We walked closer to the 'throne' and I felt something on my leg. It was a small blue looking octopus, a miniature version of the thing which had just died. I climbed on the throne to put it there and saw it was grabbing something. It had one of my (real life) pet rats in its tentacles; I pulled the rat away and put it in my pocket, and placed the creature on the throne.
There was something happening in the background here, like the creature would always be replaced (as seen by the small creature).
I had the feeling that this place was in the future somehow.

Last nights dream concerned squid like creatures. In one of my dreams I find myself in a harbour city which I didn't recognise. All I knew is that humans were being 'replaced' by creatures which looked human. I had the idea it was possible to act in a certain way and fool them.
Something more was happening though, it seemed reality itself was being changed, and occasionally there would be fluctuations and reality itself would flip to a dark place. It looked like its 'normal reality' counterpart, but dark and twisted. These changes could happen many times in a second, alternating between the two, or the darker place could last minutes. I had the idea that each time reality flipped, the darker reality lasted longer.
During one of the flips (in the dark place), I was near the sea and saw giant white squid creatures carrying the fake humans to shore. They seemed malevolent, and had very intelligent eyes.
At one point I was seeing from another normal humans eyes who had fell into the sea and was killed by one of them.

Not much more happened in that dream . Although another dram that night was great. I was with a group having aeroplane flying lessons, and we each got a chance to fly the plane. It was amazingly vivid and I could feel the g-force and everything .

"Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water."  

- Wu Li

While OBE (RTZ and AP) on the whole I am what I seem to be while 'in body'. I say on the whole because on some occasions my awareness is dimmed and so perhaps are my 'day-to-day' memories.
I've experienced many OBEs where I have full awareness of all my 'awake' memories and associations with other people. Such as trying to pull family members OBE, having conversations (although it seemed more a conversation with his mind) with my Dad while OBE etc. On some OBEs (usually the dimmer ones) I've worried I was actually still in body but not fully awake, so am worried about what family members (who at the time I perceive to be in the room with me) will be thinking of my actions (like unsuccessfully trying to push myself through windows). This assumes quite intimate knowledge with areas of my waking mind used when dealing with social interaction.
What's more interesting is that state specific memory usually means in significantly altered states of consciousness, we don't carry over 'hang-ups' and social memories. Such as when drunk we usually have lowered inhibitions (because learnt memories when baseline are generally not carried over), and so we act differently. As this is not the case when OBE (for me at least), it might have interesting implications for OBE experiences (in regards to altered states of consciousness in the OBE state).

[Many]

Hmm well firstly, I would state that drug use does not automatically mean a person has an addiction. Many people use drugs sensibly will little or no ill effect.
Secondly, using drugs does not make a person weak. Drugs have been used for as long as man has walked this earth, drug use is actually found in the animal kingdom, so I'll say drugs have been used even before man walked this earth in all probability.
Regardless of your view of drugs, humans seem to have a natural desire to achieve altered states of consciousness. Be it from meditation, drugs (including alcohol) or even young children spinning around fast to make everything look 'funny'.
The brain is a chemical machine. Every perception we have or own is acquired and held through the interaction of chemicals in the brain (yes, there is electrical activity, but chemicals bridge the synapse).
When we experience altered states of consciousness, we are experiencing chemical and electrical changes in the brain – what these altered states ultimately tell us is open to personal interpretation.
The brain also creates DMT (the most powerful psychedelic known to man) and research has possibly linked this substance to NDEs, and from my own experience and knowledge, there is more than a little similarity between OBEs (from vibrational pre-symptoms to full projections) and DMT experiences.
The point of all this it's not good be so prejudgemental. Drugs have a long spiritual history which can't be ignored as abuse or the undertakings of inferior people.
Yes drugs can become addictive and cause problems, but so can most things in life. Also keep in mind that the term 'drug' is a huge umbrella term.

Are drugs useful for OBEs? They're not something I would condone, simply due to control issues (drugs possibly inducing experiences which one has no control over what-so-ever). Becoming reliant on anything (a drug, an ideology, a philosophy etc) is not healthy imo. I would rather learn to project at will than become reliant on something to get me there.