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[your opinion]

That would be your opinion...

My opinion AND experience apparently runs contrary to yours. 

Definitely a difference of opinion here.

But my experience reveals a striking difference in even the simplest characteristics of these two separate experiences. They have very little in common. So little in fact that I have to suspect that anyone who feels inclined to describe them as similar can't possible be talking about the same thing that I am thinking of.

In one event the dreamer is in a dream and becomes aware of the fact that they are dreaming and the dream remains a dream for that moment (what they do after that point varies widely).

Waking up outside the body however is simply being asleep, NOT in a dream state at all, and then waking up in an entirely real RTZ type location, in full conscious awareness and not in the body (or even anywhere near it). The state of awareness in these events is ultra-Aware and even usually surpasses that of full conscious OBE exits.

Are you telling me what my opinion is, Ruddy?  And further to that, are you telling me that my opinion is wrong?

No - if you think that I am, please quote me exactly where I did that. I am saying that you are making a false claim and then trying to hide behind the immunity granted by 'opinion' status.

If someone doesn't agree with you then they're just automatically wrong?  Is this how you always debate?
Hopefully you recognize the irony in your statement and choose to not continue such discourse in the future.

I do not disagree with those who make true statements. There is no irony in my statement and there is no 'automatic' in my disagreement. Please quote me exactly to point out any irony. (Your groundless implied accusations buried in a baseless interrogation stream is another deceptive semantic tactic).

Again, you're looking at different variables.
How are you comparing the "chocolate ICE CREAM" to the "strawberry ICE CREAM"?

Yes, exactly! I am looking at different variables and observing that they are different variables.
okay... spelling it out slowly... The "chocolate ICE CREAM" is akin to LD while the "strawberry ICE CREAM" is full conscious exit OBE.... Get it?

Now, you can admit that you are 80 years old and have smoked 2 packs a day since you were ten and your burnt out taste buds can no longer TASTE the DIFFERENCE -- that would be fine. But to claim chocolate = strawberry is still a false claim.

You can say that your favorite flavor is strawberry and that is your opinion. Fine. But to say strawberry and chocolate are the same? ... now you have just made a false claim. To try and hide the false claim behind 'opinion' status won't fly for those of us who know the difference and for those who do not know the difference, they will only remain confused. And the one who makes the false claim has done a disservice to the neophytes.

LDs are not OBEs

You're ignoring (deliberately, mind you) that it doesn't prove the contrary either.  It doesn't even suggest it actually.  It just says, hey, there are different brain waves showing.  That's completely meaningless.

Actually, I could just as easily conclude from their experiments that it DOES prove that OBEs and LDs are the same thing by equating their brain activity with conscious awareness during the experience.  See what I did there?  I made a completely unprovable, random hypothesis just like they did.  THIS IS FUN!

He has not claimed to have "proof". Disagreeing with something no one has said is another common deceptive semantic trick that I see on these forums. Also to state, "that it doesn't prove the contrary" reveals a lack of even an elementary grasp of logic because once again (don't tell me you've never heard this before), 'you can't prove a negative'.

Yes it does say, "there are different brain waves showing".  But to claim "that's completely meaningless" is wrong. It is clearly meaningful. A hypothesis is stated and it is backed up with empirical evidence.

Glad to see you're having fun.

It's not deceptive... it's *MY OPINION*.  Understand the difference.

And I'm warning you now, please stop spamming that link all over the Astral Pulse.
I'll be straight up deleting your posts from now on anywhere you post it.  Enough is enough Pauli.

Pauli is absolutely right. It is deception. It is NOT just your *opinion*. (Claiming a falsehood to be just another opinion is just more deception).

You can say that "in your opinion" the chocolate ice cream is the same as strawberry ice cream but every kid on the block that has tasted both will know that you don't know what you are talking about. They will know that you are wrong.

And posting a hyperlink to another Astralpulse thread that is recently active and directly relevant to the present discussion is NOT spam. I for one appreciate that Pauli goes to the trouble to conveniently provide it.

Thanks Pauli.

Thanks Under, that is plenty to make your point.

One of the criteria that I am settling on is the; not just conscious exit but a conscious re-entry in order to qualify as a full conscious OBE.
If the experience starts with a conscious rollout, for example and then proceeds through a series of events which then grow cloudy and then the projector later wakes up in the body like waking up from sleep... I am saying that is a conscious projection that degraded into an LD. This has happened to me quite a few times.

As the projection progresses the projector finds themselves "slipping" into higher dimensions

This is a little different. I am not sure that 'slipping' is the best word for this. I have phased into a higher dimension but it required energy, intent, focus and fortitude to accomplish. But this can be a bit tricky. I have stumbled over the odd method at times that completely reverses a failing navigation effort in surprising fashion.

So, long story short, I am still laying basic groundwork in all this and it will be months if not years before I can comment more confidently on it.

So the government does astral body swapping? LOL pls.

I heard that VPDick Cheney himself piloted the first 911 flight into the Twin Towers. The astral body of the terrorist was being held in a plasma field in Cuba until the last second when Cheney was 'phased' over to Area51 and the terrorist was astral-body-slammed back into his physical form by a scalar weapon tuned to the carrier frequency of his Muladhara Chakra...sumthin, sumthin Hertz.... I don't remember the exact number....

The chart is extremely inconsistent with my experiences.

If you could offer a few "for example" cases to clarify the inconsistency it would be helpful.

What do you base your opinion on?
Becoming lucid in the non-physical state is an OBE,...

I base my opinion on personal experience.

And I agree with Pauli, becoming lucid in the non-physical state is NOT an OBE. If you check the thread just suggested and read the link Pauli gave in that thread and look at the table comparison provided you can understand this position.

Becoming lucid during a dream and waking up outside the body are not even close to the same thing.

Not even close.



To claim that the experience of one gives knowledge and experience of the other is so misleading as to be flat-out wrong.

You're comparing the end result vs how you get there.

No, I'm not. I am using inclusive terms that contain both.

I see "Astral Projection" as the end result... and I view a WILD as describing how you get there.

I think that may be a confused mix. "Astral Projection" is an implied type of projection while actually arriving in "The astral" is the end result. AP... "P" is the how and "A" is the destination.
And WILD is not just 'how' ... the W_I_ is how you get there, the destination is in the _L_D state.

The "A" in AP and the "LD" in WILD are two different destinations in my book. I know the lines are blurred at the edges but this attempt to glom it all together and say its all the same just muddies the waters, imho, and is not constructive in the end.

Have you ever thought of the reason why they DECIDED to label it taboo?

There were a variety of good reasons. For one thing, it was observed over the years that more than a few initiates would become mentally and emotionally unstable during the course of the early training and the OBE state made matters much worse. Even without their intensive training regimen, even just dabbling in these matters is not without some small manifestations of this. "Delusions of Grandeur" is a common aspect of this phenomenon and we see these types on metaphysical forums on a regular basis.

The Magick Orders routinely reject a number of aspirants seeking initiation. At a certain level of the Magick Training Regimen continued lessons would become the equivalent of placing a homicidal psychopath in military, Special Forces training.

I believe in him! It is my religion! You better respect my beliefs, Rudolph!

Summer, when and where did I disrespect your beliefs?

What is AP, anyway? Can't AP be a WILD

No. AP is AP and WILD is WILD.

To me, AP is Full Waking Consciousness moving to Full conscious, "feel myself real-time separating" from the physical and now standing outside the physical but with full awareness. Now... I have a LOT more experience with that than with WILD but I have done some experimenting with various projection techniques and I think I have done the WILD thing a couple times but I need more experience to say much about it with a high degree of confidence.

I've had vivid non-lucid dreams that were so highly defined as to excel in quality compared to certain lucid dreams...

I know, me too. Quite the dilemma.... I had a clean separation in my thoughts about those ultra-vivid, crystal clear dreams compared to regular and even lucid dreams -- *before* I started doing these other projection methods. This is a real challenge trying to develop a meaningful vocabulary for all this. Especially since I never liked the "focus" level scheme. That seems a bit too clinical to me.

is it possible to just wake up not near your body?

Yes, I have done this a few times.

I'd like to add that the naked awareness may persist for a while after one transitions from a Mode 1 OOBE into a Mode 2 environment.

What is "naked awareness"?

And I think describing the various OBE states as "experiences of an inner reality at varying degrees" is a good way to put it but using the mathematical "=" sign is going too far. They are NOT 'equal'.

I have projected into an LD and I have gotten lucid in the midst of a regular dream and I have phased into pure OBE awareness from the LD state and then phased into pure astral realm awareness, sequentially. Each state is a different level of awareness.

Regular dream ==> Lucid Dream ==> AP

They may all involve extra-physical awareness but they are each qualitatively different in significant and meaningful ways.

...however I have not "phased" the way most talk about it and I want to try it because it sounds interesting...the whole noticing part etc and because I want to be able to compare it to LDs and APs to help me with my own understanding.
Agree 100% with summerlander about not underestimating lucid dreams as I too have had some very revealing ones.

To me phasing and APing are the same thing. Can you give an example of "  "phased" the way most talk about it" so  can understand this better?

And yes, I have said here before that I think the LD is not just useful but often MORE instructive and revealing than a simple OBE.

i don't know the context, but ap is the pinnacle of magic.
only the master magician can properly and effectively project.

I occasionally saw similar comments by stray neophytes and aspirants on the main Magick boards.

In my communication with a world renowned Master Magician it was clearly indicated to me that AP outside the confines of ritual preparation and direction was strictly TABOO.

He told me this when I was just starting to AP under my own steam, on my own, when I dern well pleased.

In this particular case I think the neophytes may be on to something.

I think the Magick Order Schools produce initiates of relatively high intellectual achievement but in actual practice their demonstrable level of attainment can be less than impressive.

Also satan was forced into hell by god for trying to overtake heaven?

The Scriptures are not crystal clear on Satan.

From the Catholic Encylopedia;
...but both the early Fathers and later Catholic commentators agree in understanding it as applying with deeper significance to the fall of the rebel angel. And the older commentators generally consider that this interpretation is confirmed by the words of Our Lord to his disciples: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven" (Luke 10:18). For these words were regarded as a rebuke to the disciples, who were thus warned of the danger of pride by being reminded of the fall of Lucifer.

Most of what people hold is more folk tales than actual doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DVinfernoLuciferKingOfHell_m.jpg

Here's my definition of Satan: bovine excrement

That sounds like anti-Muslim bigotry to me. [The "Great Bovine Excrement"... hmmm doesn't have the same ring to it....]

1974 was really bad and the mid 1930's was a very bad year -- so it seems maybe like about every 40 years it goes nutz;

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/tornado/tornadotrend.jpg

I started doing it a couple years ago when I first wanted to learn AP and Robert Bruce's workbook was the first 'hands-on' type material I found.

I had positive feelings about it but I was in an "I'm ready to believe you" mood at the time.

Other authors that I am reading lately don't push that 'energy' angle. Thomas Campbell likes meditation and a super-strict diet! that I doubt many can or will stick to.

Actually, no one here is prtending evil doesn't exist.

Yes, there is. 

As Pauli2 stated, it is the people who end up in hell who are evil, and, according to his well thought out perspective, Satan is doing a good deed by punishing them. He's good. Grin

Satan is evil by definition (provided above). That does not preclude an evaluation of his contribution to the Grand Scheme as 'good'.

Rudolph: Because walking is not something you usually do with an etheric body, unless you are nonlucid and walking is what you expect to do, as in any other dream.
I'm not disagreeing with what anyone else is saying, though.

Normally I just float around or fly when OBE and I am not aware of a body either. But recently I tried to feel my feet on the ground as I walked because other people report that they do this and I wanted to try it. I also wondered if it would assist as a 'deepening' technique.

Lots of people report feeling the grass between their toes when arriving at an astral park and other similar tactile experiences while OBE. It is not all that uncommon, if you ask me.

How have you arrived at this conclusion?

Because it is.


1ev·i·dence
noun \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\
Definition of EVIDENCE
1
a : an outward sign : indication

Is any of this really an issue? Would someone really be disappointed by "phasing" rather than a more classical exit or vice-versa?

When I first started to project I would either project directly to a distant place or I would pause for a short moment by my body and then shoot directly off to some destination.

I read lots of other stories when I started doing this and I wanted to understand what other people were saying and doing. It became important for me to float up to the ceiling and look back at my body lying in bed. I also wanted to explore my neighborhood.

It may not be a matter of being "disappointed" but rather a desire to understand what others are talking about.

That is why vocabulary and nomenclature are important.