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thanks for your interesting posts Mustardseed!

Palehorse_ what do you mean by your idea of a bridge?
That all people will now go via this 'bridge' (ie through jesus) after their death?

Douglas

Sorry for the Length of this

Regards Mustardseed

Not at all, a great post!

I agree with your last point particlularly as I feel that it makes sense in any religion which bases itself on the notion of a god of unconditional love and compasasion, that this god would still accept those people who are nevertheless good, despite them being members of other faiths/no faiths. If we accept that upon death these good people from other faiths/non faiths receive instruction on their individual errors of their perception of god, and are then welcomed within for their good actions, then i don't see how anyone could have a problem with such a doctrine, that is, if they believe in a god of unconditional love.
As for the catholic ruling on this, which i mentioned, i guess the thinkers in the Vatican must have realised this point themselves, which is why they have endorsed it, although I'm sure many other christian groups have too.

One other question which you touched upon, if you don't mind:

You mentioned the astral/like + like aspect to this, which I would agree with.

Now if people who have performed bad actions and consistantly have bad intent then go to hell (or a 'lower realm' formed by like + like, if we use astral terminology):

do you then believe they stay there for ever? ie eternal damnation.. or do you believe that if these people learn the errors of their ways and fully come to terms with their past actions, then they may gravitate upwards as it were, or to use the terminology, become accepted into heaven? If the idea of like + like applies then it follows that if someone stuck in this realm who fully repents of their actions, they will no longer be trapped there, they will naturally gravitate towards the realm of love.

This would be consistant with the original greek version of the bible. I'm sure you have heard about this but the fear-based preachers love to use the notion of *eternal* damnation but it is now fairly well known that the original greek word used was 'Aeon' which denoted a time which could vary, sometimes it meant 1000 years, sometimetimes other lengths of time, but most importantly it ALWAYS denoted a FINITE amount of time..
however in the english (and latin as well i think) versions, *aeon* has been replaced with *eternal*, a simple word change which I'm sure you will agree has profound implications.

I think the original writers used 'aeon' because they wanted to show that people could end up in these regions for periods of time, sometimes long periods depending on their mindset, and so this word, sometimes denoting a period of 1000 years, was used in order to illustrate this possiblility.

If this is true then people will stay there for various lengths of time, basically until they accept the error of their past actions and until the *fully* repent in the core of their heart.. they will then gravitate upwards..
now this depends on the person.. someone might only spend a very short time as they come to realise thier past actions and recognise the love within them almost right away.. but a particluraly stubborn and/or wicked person might stay there literely for an aeon (or longer!) if they consistantly refuse to take account of themselves.. and they will stay there for as long as it takes!

Whats your take on the above?

Doug

Mustardseed_

But do you believe that In order to have a life beyond this one you must believe and accept jesus as your lord and if you do not accept him then you go to hell or cease to exist? the old 'no one comes to the father except through me' routine.

Its just that this notion, beloved of evangelicals who like to base their doctrines on fear, is deeply troubling to most enlightened people who find this notion incompatible with the notion of a god of unconditional love, forgiveness and compassion.

However as far as I know the catholic church has already made much progress in this regard and now accepts that all good minded people will get into heaven regardless  of their particular faiths.. its still not perfect as its still means god condemns people to death or torment for their sins, but at least it means that athiests who have nevertheless dedicated their lives to helping others or are otherwise good people, and people of other religions are no longer 'damned' and can still go to heaven (even if they get corrected on their 'error' first, according to this doctrine).

Whats your view on this?

Douglas

yes but that is not really that likely is it?

This is a typical media hype-fest..

instead of talking about what doctors and scientists are actually *planning* to do.. they instead come up with a worst possible case scenario and then promote it as if thats the plan! Get real.

Just because they *could* do it, doesnt mean they *want* to do it.. and such a far out example certainly should not be used in order to ban such research.

Doug

Using the term 'chimera' is media sensationalism as it promotes ideas of centaurs or half men  half dogs etc and other nonsense... lets get a bit of realism here: This is about using animals to grow specific organs for human transplant (also blood)

before people start jumping the gun about this, there are some very good possible health benefits here.. such as in growing human organs for transplant, using the DNA from the human patient so that there are no body rejection issues.
For example the pig could be engineered to have human heart with your DNA so that you have a second heart which your body would not reject.. the pig can be allowed to grow and have a perfectly normal life.. or at least as long as any other pig on a farm.. but when it comes the time for the chop.. the heart can be removed and instead of being disposed of (or eaten) it is frozen and stored for your benefit...

before you start complaining about this idea.. do you know how difficult it is to
A: find organ doners for transplant?
B: live after a transplant having to take a whole smorgasbord of anti-immue system drugs so that your body doesnt reject your new heart..
these anti-immune drugs screw your immune system and have really bad side effects which can make life hell....a heart made from your own DNA wouldnt need this as your body would accept it..

I see no ethical dilemas here beyond the usual *using animals for our benefit* and veggies can certainly voice that concern... but if you eat pork.. what is your problem? I think as long as the animals are treated well enough it is fine (in fact if they carry certain human organs you may find they are treated like kings compared to most animals on the farm haha).

You may complain now but how about when your 5 year old daughter is dying from a failing heart and there are no doners?
or even if she gets on, she is going to have to take powerful drugs for the rest of her life?
Still think the present system is adequate?

Douglas

oh marks... numbers etc.. except marking people and numbers has been going on since year dot so means absolutly nothing... yet another vague line in revelations... that great chapter of horseshit which is written in such a vague manner that it can be constantly re-written and re-inteprpreted in different generations... just the same prophesing techniqe as nostradamus and countles other prediction merchants.... some people are so naive however!

Douglas

Palehorse_

Palehorse, if someone like Soma-sight believes in the inerrency of the bible and is to be taken literely, 'written in stone'  (a stance which is fanatasism and dangerous imo, as bad as muslim fanatics), there is little point in wasting breath and energy trying to argue otherwise.

Any attempt to bring normal historical perspectives and historical or histiographical elements will not be appreciated and indeed ignored.

This is a matter of faith for them and they are free to believe this if they wish, even of they do irritate the rest of us with their constant 'in-your-face' preaching...

as long as they do not get access to nuclear weapons so that they can 'hasten the second coming' then they can do what they like as far as I'm concerned!

Doug

PS I  thank 'god' I was not born in the bible belt. i think i would go nuts!  

Tayesin_

True enough,  and if you remember what the Big Man (Julius Caesar) said about the Gauls and their belief in 'transmigration', (as well as other classical writers), then some form of reincarnation belief used to be widespread in Europe too at one time, or at least northern Europe.

Doug

hhmm interesting... it is just possible that the shroud IS actually the shroud of the historical jesus, although its a long shot to imagine the same relic would survive until today, but not impossible.

Another possiblity, even if it DOES date from around that period: it might just be a relic from around that period but not nececerelly the original.. the relic business was already up and running very early on.. for example, Emperor Constantine's wife Helena is said to have found the 'true cross' if we remember, this being the 4th century ad.. and sounds a bit suspect!

When we remember the relic business went from strength to strength reaching its height in the Middle-ages, I think all these things should be viewed with some suspicion, but you never know.. its worth re-testing.. I guess the most we can expect is that it may just date to around that period, but as to whether it is an original or cunningly reproduced relic we will never know, since those in the relic business would go to any lengths to make their relics, including using real blood, bones etc.. so the fact that the blood is real and might even date to that period proves nothing in itself, but I imagine this will be enough for most believers.

Douglas

This 'soma-sight' sounds very much like Exothen and Narrow-path before him.. are they all the same individual i wonder?

Doug

If you got problems with demons and the devil bothering you, I think you got a right to protect yourself or others.


What 'devil'? From your post i assume you are firmly fixed within the christian view of the universe... so by your world view i guess that any attempt to gain knoweledge of and use 'occult' knowledge (ie 'secret') is an 'evil' thing.

Thats why I dont accept the christian view of the world that you appear to.. I don't even believe in your 'devil'.

But I DO agree with you that there are certain parts of 'occult' ie secret knowledge that may be dangerous for those immature enough to handle it.. but this doesnt mean that the knowledge itself is 'bad' in any way, neither is the act of searching for it..

The issue is making sure there is a good system for those looking into it.. a controled release of info, catered and limited for the particlular stage that the seeker/magician is at... this is where all the secret magickal societies come in and other secret orders.

The church may be right in thinking that just having all this info available to everyone might be harmful, but unfortunatly, they are just as ignorant about the proper meaning of 'occult' knowledge as the people they are trying to 'protect'. So i wouldnt go by their recomendations... but yes, i guess they do perform as service in keeping the 'plebs' out as it were    Its like giving a stone age man a nuclear reactor... could be useful but he's more likely to blow himsefl up with it!

You know whats sad, Gandalf and others that feel that the Bible shouldn't be taken for face value, is that Im sure the same reasoning went around while Noah was preaching and building his ark.

Now this line says it all! Like Noah preaching and building his ark... mmm that *really happened*    Seriously though, I guess its up to your own belief and I respect it, but to assume as you do that the bible is a valid historical text plumbs the depths of foolishness in my opinion!

It's sad, that people like me dont 'take the bible at face value'? I beg to differ. Its called having an enquiring mind and a bit of common sense. Its not sad.. its wonderful!

As soon as it is held to be *good* to critisise people for questioning religious dogmas, you might as well move to Iran  

Also for the doubters out there that don't know but the EU is the beast mentioned in revelations and do you know that in its main government building there are 679 seats and only 1 seat is empty and guess what number its labeled? Bingo 666.


Utter, utter piffle and outright paranoia!  You have been getting your info from Holywood movies, in particular the *false* revelations quote in 'The Omen'.
I'm glad I don't live anywhere near you and that you do not have access to nuclear weapons  

Douglas

PS if anyone actually bothers to *read* revelations, it is quite clear to anyone with an ounce of common sense that the events described were assumed to occur within the lifetimes of the early christians responsible for these writings.
Trying to fit them to interprete modern scenarios is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, but it doesnt stop the paranoid from trying.

Luckily the writings are so vague as to lend itself to constant reinterpretations if you put enough imagination into it. Such a style of presenting prophesies was hardly new, even before that time, cf the obscure revelations given by the oracle at Delphi, and in more recent times, the vague prophesies of Nostradamus, written so they can be adapted to any situation. Some people are so naive!

ok guys, well I'll give this 'expanded awareness' thing a go again tonight and we'll see how it goes, get the journals warmed up!

Even if we dont get any results in the short term, I'm sure this is the best way to go in this area, ie keeping and comparing journals: seems like a good practice to adopt.

Doug

I think that's the problems with a lot of these religious dogmas.. they *can* encourage you to ditch the 'here and now' in favour of a paradise in the hereafter (if it is preached that way).

This can't be helpful to humanity... its the opposite end of the scale from being 100% focused on now and having no regard for the past or future.. Its all about moderation and balance in my opinion.. any extreme is bad... the situation you describe in the shelter most certainly an extreme case.. the rancid sectarianism is quite openly stated for example..

I find this does seem to be a problem in the US.. For example in books and movies, if ever they want to have a film which is critical of the church in some way, they always play it safe and go for the catholic church.. the da Vince code for example..
At first i thought.. 'wow they are being really bold in the US by critisising the church (even if it was incorrect!), but once i realised that it was all about the 'evils' of the catholic church, and nothing about any other,, the book now just comes across to me as a sectarian rant.

Doug

Telos_ yeah.. i believe he's buried in Kirkaldy... we actually get a lot of American's coming over on a 'pilgrimage' if that the right word  

Yeah, I have heard about 'the invisible' hand' concept; also he established the concept of 'free trade' did he not? sorry, I'm not well up on economics theory, all i remember is that Adam Smith's 'Wealth of Nations' is to economics, kind of like what Newton's 'Principia' is to physics.

The reason i brought it up was that I heard that Adam Smith was influenced by David Hume in some of his ideas, although I don't know the details of how this is the case.

btw this is kind of freaky but guess what, I had a dream last night that I was talking to you once more; i can't remember what you look like so I can't use this as verification, but you were sure coming out with interesting things!

You were talking about how you were into traditional Scottish folk music; fisherman's songs to be more accurate, and/or you were into sailing or using traditional scottish fishermen's techniques for sailing.
This is as close as i can get it to what I remember.

Again, this sounds really far out and I can't really see how you would be into such things!
Maybe: its my own projections, and this is my own scenario, but I'm not into traditional scottish fishing hehe
or, maybe its 'another' you, ie another 'aspect' if we go with that idea.
or, it actually IS you and you are into that, which would suprise me.

Odd isnt it?

PS Major Tom_

With regards to your earlier question about expanding awareness.. its kind of hard to describe actually, but a lot easier to experience!
I am usually lying there, just waking up, so my mind is still only half focused on the physical.. but, instead of concentrating and focusing away on some specific location, I instead push my awareness outwards; kind of hard to explain, but i focused on my own narrow band of awareness and everything I could perceive with it, then I started to widen it... push the envelope as it were.. if you focus on this you can actually begin to feel your awareness expanding beyond the narrow focus you are used to in everyday life. Thats what it felt like to me certainly.. then you will start to get fleeting images and sensations of things and people, sometimes first person, sometimes third... sometimes a mixture of both... more of a sensation really... you actually feel yourself becoming these people. At this stage its still *very* early stages and I'm only getting fleeting glimpses, nothing more.

Give it a try and see how you get on.. then maybe we can compare with our experiences.

Doug

ok... thats your belief I guess!

I'll stick with mine!


btw You should check out Hell sometime, they do great barbeques, and the host is really horny.

Douglas

Telos_
Yeah David Hume is one of the greats, I guess him and Adam Smith must be two of our greatest contributions (or curse, if you are an anti-capitalist protester   ), glad to hear about the rugby shirt, I've got one too, although I said i wouldnt wear it again unti they started playing better haha

Its a pity you didnt have your dream journal for that night, as perhaps we could have compared; never mind, next time!  Despite what i said about the doubts of ever establishing objective proof for the 'wider reality' than the physical, i still think its worth spending more time looking for it, just in case we can find something that people can accept.

btw can I just say go with the college work too, I know where you are coming from with this as I am dissillusioned with the 'meat grinder' as well, but I figure I have spent so long at it, I might as well see it to the end, also maybe i can bring down the system from within hehe

Major Tom_
I will get back to you with more details, but i need to sleep just now, my minds gone, apologies (3:00am here).

Doug

Frank: Cheers mate, Yeah.. this seems to be the way to go!

Selski! Hey, you are right.. isnt it odd that you had that dream encounter with me a couple of weeks before! That could have been me and I dont remember, or maybe it was another aspect of me (someone who likes to talk about US tv shows haha).

I was just thinking about this idea of 'alternate selves' and universes today and its interesting that scientists themselves are coming round to this idea, with their theories of quantum mechanics predicting that there are an infinate number of alternate universes, indeed they postulate that every time we make a decision, we create yet another universe as every choice is acted out in some universe or another. This quantum theory seems to hit the mark at least in some way with regards to expanded awareness, although they don't appear to be aware of the concept that all these alternate selves are part of each other.

I was also thinking that this idea may go some way to explaining those scenarios where you meet someone you know while being 'out' and converse with them in a big way, only to 'wake up' and find that the individual in question knows nothing about it.
This could be for various reasons, it may have indeed been the same individual but they just dont remember, or it may often be the case that you end up talking with another aspect of that person, as may have occured with me last night.... that other aspect may be living in our timeframe right now in another location, or it maybe someone in a completly different universe..

Of course this means that attempts to verify encounters in an objective sense for sceptics is even more difficult, and emphasises even more the need to get out there and explore for oneself rather than looking for objective evidence, which will always be unconvincing to those who have'nt had any hands on experience.

Doug

Last night's experience i found more significant than usual as i actually felt the process of my awareness expanding in some detail.. upon focusing on this I was able to get fleeting glimpses of what I felt were 'other aspects of me' in different situations, some of which they looked quite similar to me, and in others were they looked quite different physically.
It was as if i was able to expand my awareness into theirs for a fleeting moment, but it was only that... i didnt have any time to explore these areas, it was more like a quick sample..

Anyway the next thing was. i pushed my awereness wider and then i started getting fleeting glimpses of other people although i cant remember any physical features about them, but they had names associated with them... the 'labels' attatched to them appeared to be Frank, Selski and Telos! I briefly conversed with them but i dont think there was any definate contact on their part.. it was more like I caught a glimpse of them and recognised them via their names on this forum.. odd especially since i hadnt been thinking about them at all (sorry guys hehe)..

After that I appeared in the RTZ and conducted a quick flyover of my surounding area... something i seem to engage in at random these days.

Doug

Happy Burns Night for all you Scots and anyone else who has a few drams on the 25th!

For everyone else who does'nt know what I'm talking about, I'll just say:  'Fair fa' your honest sonsie face,
Great Chieftain o' the puddin race...'  

hehe

Doug.

I'm sure the great Captian Picard knows the answer to that one!  

Doug

Telos yeah your right.... neoplatonism GREATLY influenced early christian theology.. in fact it WAS the theology... eg the whole trinity concept only developed inthe 3rd centuryAD and it was directly influcenced via neo-platonism.. and you find the early christian theologans didnt have a problem with that at all.. in fact many of them were neo-platonists that converted..
thats how christianity won over neo-platonism.. christianity absorbed all the best bits of it and enriched the rather dull simple monotheism of the original.

Douglas

no problem nostic...
just when you use capitals 'Him', 'He' and so on.. it just  looks very much like someone coming from  the 'bowing and scraping' definition viewpoint... also the thing about 'god showing Himself in peoples lives' line kind of smacked of that too.

Telos.
Well, the above list is concerning itself with systems of morality which use 'god' as their verifier so to speak, which is one thing I dont like.
I prefer secular ethics in the style of the Greek philosophers. Thats the way to go.. a sytem of morality that works because its a logical way for people to live together well socially... although finding the *best* system or at least the *least worst* may yet take some time.. Of the modern secualr philosophies.. i quite like Kant, although he has some problems with his theory as ever, but you could certainly live your life quite well via his system (ok apart from the 'enquiring murderer' issue!)

The only problem is, this is too much for the vast majority of the population who need something simpler..hense the 'divine command theory' which everyone can follow using the simple 'do this or god will kick your butt' routine... this is enough for most people... so i guess it serves a valid purpose for the majority.

As an aside, the one thing the religious morality crowd doesnt like to admit however, is that the biggest advances in ethics and human rights/values to occur in the past couple of hundred years have been through secular ethics... secular ethics has shaped the modern world since the enlightenment... for example, it was only through secular ethics that the notion of slavery was seriously challenged and in fact ovecome, something that christianity never managed to do.. in fact christianity actually reinforced slavery as an institution... even viewing god's relationship with his flock via the 'master/slave relationship...
ie original greek version of Pauls' epistles, he uses the term 'slave' in relation to god who is the 'dominus' (master)...
this was too strong for english translaters who changed it to 'servant' of the 'lord' which is now commanly used..
not that i think an outmoded aristocratic/autocratic model of religion really helps us in a society where democracy is our highest secular ideal... god isnt very democratic!
'Kingdom' of god?.. no thanks.

But anyhow, I think, in time, God reveals Himself to all people. Some people will take a long winding path to Him, while others will take the express route. I think it's best to just leave people to their own growth, and just be the best example of a "believer" that you can be

its funny how people can have radically different world views.. Like with Nostic for example, where now he feels he cannot understand how people go through life and NOT believe in god... i am the same but in reverse!
I started off not being sure what 'god' meant.. then went through all the standard religious definitions.. and nowadays I have discarded the term.. now I am amazed that people need this concept of 'god' (in the standard monotheistic notion) in order to get through their lives.. I have felt so much more free after i saw through this belief construct (imo)....

While there may well be intelligence behind the construction of our universe, this doesnt make me jump to the concept of 'god' in the standard sense.. in fact all this standard notion of 'god', all the capital letter stuff (eg Him, He etc)... this is all to human imo and I've never felt happy with it.

Everyone is entitled to their beliefs of course.
Interestingly.. 'non-believers' in 'god' assume that someday the 'believers' will come round to their way of thinking, while the believers, like Nostic just pointed out, assume that god will eventially make his presense felt in some way in 'non-believers' lives,  ie  they come round to the believers way of thinking.

Of course, in reality, if you take case studies of everyone, you will find that everyone varies hugely: you will get people who reject this concept and do so all their lives, just as you will get people who were once 'non-believers' who change and hold this belief to the end of their days.. in addition you will get others who vary over time and go from one end to the other.

For me I dislike the term 'god' as I find it inaccrurate, out of date and projects all the negative connotations that i feel we are trying to get away from.. as you have noticed, if i have to use it I put inverted commas round it, thus: 'god'.

Each to their own!

Douglas

Novice... you are right in that i ended the description with a slightly negative point.. but this is nothing to do with the guy himself.... the negative aspect was that I was allowing my own thought processes to alter my perception..
You got it exactly right when you interprete the 'gift-giving' tactic as a way to raise awareness and enter friendly dialogue... i have no doubt that this was what the intention was here (yes this is a common tactic to use by people), the problem was that my mind got in the way and all it took was a fleeting thought from me about 'pervs' to change my perception of the situation..
when i say 'perv' all i mean is that the act of offering a bag of sweets just remined me slightly of when i was at school and teachers said never take sweets from a stranger!... thats all. it was just a passing thought of my old school days.. at no point did I actually think he WAS a perv.. my problem is that a simple thought can alter my perception... i would really like to know how to keep thought processes under control so they don't 'leak out' into the enviroment, while still allowing me to think propely.

Doug