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This also helped clarify something I have thought on many times.

We here and elsewhere talk about learning to connect with our higher selves and the oneness and all that jazz. We hint at and sometimes outright say we must learn to walk in two worlds, the fully conscious aware world AND this deceptively simple 3D physical world.

My thought is this - we already know that other place. the one we don't know is here (3D physical). What if we are only here to submerge ourselves so completely in this one lifetime here that we totally forget all the other stuff. Complete 3D physical Earth reality existence with no hint whatsoever of the planes from which we all pretty much believe we came.

Just a thought, not saying I'm right but do wonder if perhaps I am onto something. Total submersion to the point we don't know of any other existence (consciousness) till the game is over.

Yes I think we have forgotten. I mentioned in another thread that because we have become distracted by the shiny objects of experience that true nature sits in the background being ignored.

I would say that it is this 3D world that is infinitely more complicated though because of the nature of mind to divide experience up into the many objects. If true reality is before thought then it is incredibly simple in nature. As soon as the mind divides experience up into 'me' and 'not' we introduce resistance into experience which makes it so complicated because we push back against what we misperceive as 'not me'. If you're just One then there is nothing to resist because everything is you. Why resist yourself? But as soon as you perceive yourself as separate it becomes a game of resistance to the now and seeking a future moment we believe will be better by resisting some objects and striving to obtain others.

As long as we are constantly resisting our experience then we are playing into the notion of a separate self. There is nothing inherently wrong with this but if you are seeking peace and contentment then it goes against the grain.

Notice the ways in which you resist the moment through the course of your day. You will see it is one of your most dominant activities.

I think this short passage from Scott Morgan sums us up very succinctly...

It all starts out pretty simply.

A harmless thought floating through awareness minding it's own business. Something simpIe like, I love chocolate.

But thoughts and feelings are sticky. They have velcro tails that attach themselves to similar thoughts. A string of like minded thoughts stick together to become something called an idea.

A bunch of similar ideas come together and form a concept, a larger framework made up of sticky thoughts bundled into ideas.

Soon a few concepts form a more solid framework called a point of view. A way of seeing the world.

And finally, a whole truckload of points of view glue together to create a much less flexible invention called a "me". Our identity formed out of thoughts, ideas, and concepts. All of these collected through experience passed on by parents, friends, society, lifetimes.

We view the world through this matrix of ideas and concepts made out of these non-existent thoughts. Now there is nothing wrong with that. It is the natural order of Consciousness creating a notion of a separate self so that Infinite Awareness experiencing itself as separate can know itself fully.

But this "me" is based on mere thoughts, creating the illusion or appearance of separation and duality. At a certain point, the fundamental concepts underpinning separation have had their time. Awareness seeks to know itself as Fullness again.

And since you are reading this, right here, in this luminous Now, Oneness must be knocking on your door.

https://www.thissimplegrace.com/

In my contemplations this came to me. Perhaps it will resonate. Perhaps not.

'True reality is that before thought arises.'

A thought is and can only ever be a minds interpretation of experience. If I look at the true knowns of my experience I know that whatever 'I am' is having an experience right now. What that experience is exactly is a little unknown. My mind is doing its best job to speculate on this experience.

For that reason alone my experience of this so called reality can only ever be a version of reality as long as mind is present to qualify it.

True reality is a thought away.

True reality requires no thoughts, ideas or concepts to be the way it is. It just is. As soon as a thought arises then that's not it. It becomes a version of reality. It may be beautiful and wonderful but it is still just a speculation on truth.

If I take my immediate experience right now... Thought has organized and labeled my visual field. It has divided up true reality into bite sized pieces for its own convenience. Here is a wall, a chair, my body, a computer (here is space and time) etc...Thought has done the same with sounds and sensations. Labeling everything.

Before thought arises True Reality might say experience is, single, whole, unitary, indivisible.

That's the elusive Oneness right there. Staring you in the face all along - just the absence of a thought away from you.

I find it curious that Wholeness seems to be all that we ever are and yet the mind divides experience up into 'me' and 'everything else' then we spend the next 80 years on this planet trying to reclaim some sense of wholeness.

And we look for it in things. If I just get this car, this house, this relationship, manifest this or that, have this spiritual experience...then this unending sense of lack will abate. I might have some semblance of wholeness.

It's already present in this moment. We are just misperceiving true reality. In so doing we are creating our own suffering.

I dont think truth can be found looking through the lens of the mind. You will only ever see an exquisite interpretation of reality.

Just curious. What makes you think people would talk/post on a new Forum? The same thing is happening to many Forums today. 

I can't speak for the numbers of people wanting to talk on forums but I think a new forum would help in two areas. Casey mentions one, which is having internet presence which this old site struggles with but also the new user sign up is out of date and not very automated. Differentiating between humans and bots can be difficult and as a result we might be turning away actual humans.

Think the site needs to be locked as more of a reference library (an akashic record if you will) and start the active forum afresh with some new software. I think in trying to preserve it it is dying a slow death.

Becasue right now the people who come here treat it like a library. Very little talking but lots of good stored info

Thank you. My Spirit Guides are telling Me to just let go and enjoy the experience.

According to them, HAVING sex is not a serious-thing; though sex can be still serious in spiritual sense. [🛡️]

So just for my own sanity I want to clarify a few of your recent posts from various threads into a a few sentences...

You are praying to your angels (who incidentally are encouraging you to weight lift) to protect you from your spirit guides whom you are very afraid of but from whom you are currently taking astral sex education advice.

Is this a fair assessment?

There are basically two-things I can do:-

[1] Actually sit-down and do the work. There is no-excuse. Sit down and simply pray. Force Myself to repeat words in My-head, such as "Light, please help me know the Truth about my Guardian Angels."
[2] I can engage in spiritual discussions, with persons/people who know spirituality; this will anchor Me, in actually doing the work.

Although, [2] will help, [1] is really what I have to do. Without exercising a gym-membership is nothing. Without actually doing the work Angelology won't work for Me! þ

I have to stop-making excuses.

Sounds a little like engaging in Bhakti yoga, the yoga of devotion. If such is the case, I think it is helpful to ensure your devotional effort comes from the heart and not the brain. I think when this is the case the sense of effort becomes effortless. More of an extension of you. I know with continued repetition of a phrase it can be difficult not to move to the mind.

Might be something you already know but thought I'd mention it anyway.

Floriferous, it's those "shiny things", as you call them, that teach us to go deeper. Many of them seem to be the "Teachers". They come in all forms and can be "interpreted" in many ways. Angels, ETs, etc., it seems to follow our own structure of "belief".

EscapeVelocity here, replied recently about a "progression" of sorts, that seems to have to happen to teach us to go further. Floriferous, you have gone through a few of the Monroe Institute courses and have seen this progression first hand. You can't sign up for Lifelines  until you have already did the  Gateway course . You can't sign up for Focus 27, unless you have already completed the Lifeline course. Then you can't move onto Starlines until you have completed the Focus 27 course. Why is this? It's simply because every course taught you how to go that much further. Do they at the Monroe Institute tell you what you are going to experience? No, they don't. They just supply the "tool" that is needed to get there. The NPR in general has a similar "progression" to it.

My Doorway technique does the same thing. It will lead you to what you need to know or see. It will set you up for the lessons that are necessary to move on. I read how so many people get to the "3D Void", stay there for a few seconds, then return back. Rarely do I hear about people mentally "moving into it". One of the things that people seem to experience when noticing is some kind of spinning vortex or grey mist. They notice it, but don't move beyond that. When you are aware of it, all you have to do is set your awareness beyond it. When you see the grey clouds, focus on the further one in. That will lead to you being drawn or "it" drawing you deeper in. The same thing with a spinning vortex. Be aware of the further point in the center of it and you will be there. The NPR is creating these for the purpose of drawing you in deeper. The thing is, it is a very potent "fear test" as well. Moving deeper into the unknown will challenge your fear. Once you do and see that there is nothing to fear, you can move onto the next "stage" of your NP development or evolution.

Yes, you can bask in the void and just be. A Monk friend of mine says you have to stop the visuals and just learn to be. That's what they teach. Watch your thoughts, but don't engage them. He doesn't subscribe to the action of Astral Projection. He teaches people to experience the "oneness". I have found that there are many ways to achieve the same thing. In my Doorway thread I constantly say that I will show you ways to "get there". But what you experience is for you, not me.

I have posted here for years. Still to this day I share what I know that might help a person to experience the NP, for whatever reason it is they wish to. The only reason I am still posting here today is to reach out to, find, converse, make friends with and yes, help what they call the "1% ers".  Edgar Mitchell's FREE institute has studied stats for years and has found that it seems to be 1% of the population that seem to be consciously open to what we are here. Many of us here are part of that 1%. Whether they are a Observer, a Retrievist, a Star Seed, a Wanderer, a Experiencer, it seems that they share the same traits as well. Those are the people I want to reach. Whether they come out of the shadows and post here or not. Just reading what I have to share and having the chance to introduce this all to them is worth every moment I spend here.

Nobody from this Forum has ever met me. You can't find pictures of me on Facebook. I am not even on it. I still don't even use a Cellphone. I always say, it's the "message" not the Messenger that is important. Ego has never been an issue. Ego is one of the worst things to stop a person from further NP evolution. You will find through your own NPR experiences that there seems to be a focus on you learning to not really totally abolish ego, but to "notice/be aware" it and then to "tame it".

While in a Retrieval years ago, I excepted the opportunity to be a "Retrievist" after I transitioned from my physical body here. After I did, I went months before I had another "conscious" Retrieval. I guess it wasn't necessary for me to consciously experience them anymore. But on some level, I knew they were still continuing. Last week I did have three different ones. But in all 3 of them, I wasn't told or even aware I was in a Retrieval until the end, when it was important to be. Through these Retrievals, I have learned more about the paranormal, as in Ghosts and Hauntings. Some of the Souls I have Retrieved have been pretty angry and "broken" souls. Sometimes the answers to help them were so simple. But the answers eluded theses Souls because they were so caught up in their "hellish simulations". To aid them I had to witness and enter into their "personal hells".

Out of everything I have ever read or heard of the topic of "non physical experiences or shifts in consciousness", the one that stands out the most is Kurt Leland's youtube video where he shares the finding of "Annie Bessant". It finally made everything make sense. If you haven't listened to it, you should. More than one time too. It's that good.
She explains what it is that people seek. What traits that may of us share in common. Here is a link to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA12Xd3Zq0I&t=1s

You're right there is a progression to the courses TMI offer. Having been a outreach trainer for TMI I also know that this progression is largely business model related. Front door products, path to advancement and all that. There's nothing magical or more advanced to Focus 27 than Focus 10. TMI themselves will tell you the numbers are utterly arbitrary. They may as well say you are now moving from Focus Sausage to Focus Cabbage. This would probably be better because you wouldn't build a needless belief around higher numbers denoting greater importance.

You only have to delve into the binaural beats themselves to find in many ways that something like focus 10 is more complex than Focus 27. Focus 27 uses one binaural beat at 4hz layered onto itself at a number of different carrier frequencies. Pretty simple stuff, right? It's just a thought that tells you that you need to work up to such a focus level.

TMI offer a course called 'Peak Week' where you sample lots of advanced courses with no prerequisites. A beginner with no experience can sample Starlines.

But back on point, the video you allude to is interesting. I think the crux of it for me is around 41minute mark where he points to two paths that loosely describe the divide in opinion we are discussing here. The Occult path is what Astral Pulse is all about. OBEs, astral projection and a step by step spiritual advancement approach to reach Source as the ultimate goal. Guides, teachers, and angels along the way.

The other path he talks about which is closer to what I am referring to is the path of Mysticism which differs because it is about transcending everything to reach Source. Both paths are indeed valid. Not saying they are not as they both supposedly end up at the same point which is Source.

For me it's the difference between going on vacation and choosing to walk the 500 miles of landscape to the destination as opposed to transcend it in a plane.

A part of me wonders that because our brain seems to be hard-wired to this notion of a step by step approach to learning and developing (you can't get anywhere in this world without hard work apparently) that it discounts such a path that transcends all those steps through the absence of doing. What if it was that simple?

I wish we had an applause button Floriferous. This is exactly the point I've tried to get across before but I keep getting tongue tied or finger twisted. Thank you for providing so much clarity!!!

You're welcome. Thank you.

Individualized spirit expressions have chosen to be exactly where they need to be to experience exactly what they need to experience in order to realize knowledge which leads to the truth. All of these components of the spirit journey are interconnected. If there was no need to seek, we wouldn't be here in the first place. Everything has a reason. All individual spirits never stop learning, and by extension the collective consciousness of All That Is (God) is in a constant state of becoming.  The truth of course is everywhere, but there is a need of realization of it, otherwise we are blind to it and as individual spirits we perceive it a a path, a series of experiences to realize the truth. Again, if we find ourselves in a character, oriented to a certain reality, then we have not found what we are looking for yet. In one way or another, in whichever manner we do it, we are seekers.

Hey Lightbeam,

I agree there is a need to evolve from the perspective of the individual self. I'm just not so sure I agree on the path anymore.

There is a need of realization but I think we are blinding ourselves to it with the distractions. I go back to my original point. If pure awareness is the goal then why not place awareness only on awareness itself? What's with all the shiny stuff along the way? It's feeling increasing superfluous to me. It's extra bloating and I don't think it needs to be.

Our Being is simple. Why have we complicated it?

Not all of us, some have other goals!

Well I believe if you read fully what I wrote I say some people may have other goals.

I'm sorry, did you just called all the experiences meaningless? Just a thought maybe you must stay in the Void, pure consciousness, no trivial stuff. I'm sure the more of you here didn't explore the Void enough, did you ever tried to stay longer in there, maintaining it and see what will happen, maybe ever expanding it.

No, I never said it was meaningless. That's twisting my words. I think experience is extremely valuable to see yourself in the contrast. But I think exclusively focusing on objects is an endless rabbit hole. You will struggle to find your way out.

I'm not sure why you would say i would think the void is meaningless. I talked only about experiences relating to objects. The only way to describe the void is the absence of objects hence its name. I feel like you either skim-read or mis-read my post because that's literally the opposite. In fact, your example backs up my stance.

All this talk is based on a shared definition of void as well and I'm not so sure we share it. Beyond body. Beyond mind. Beyond emotion. Just being. Becomes less about experience and more about the simple continuity of being.

This is little opposite of me, physical event are also subjective experience, just on greater level.

Not really what I meant. Not objectivity versus subjectivity. But simply 'objects'. I would consider a book to be an object. Also a thought. An emotion. Anything in a non physical experience is an object just more refined object. Anything you can accurately describe would be an object.

As opposed to say awareness. This has no perceivable objective qualities. That's what makes it the subject. That's why in Vedantic tradition they use the netti netti approach (not this, not this) to awareness -you can only say what it isn't because it has no object-like qualities. That is why I say non-physical experiences are still objects because the mind is still in play. No different that the waking state. Both are born of mind - Thought. And thought is an object. The Subject (pure awareness) is constantly in the background because we are too focused on the objects.

I'm sorry, but maybe you never found a guide or your higher self, guides are always providing me with crucial information about what I'm experiencing, most of my knowledge through the years is not from some books, but from those distracting guides!

Good for you. Been there. Done that. I personally would say that's feeding your spiritual ego.

You make a lot of presumptions about me considering this is our first interaction.

If truth is already here then why you are still not Aware of it? Why you are searching for it?

Because 'people are searching for it' is the exact reason you don't see it. It's the absence of searching (the absence of a path) which reveals it. It's like happiness. The very searching for it is the root of the unhappiness we feel.

This is why I'm questioning going after shiny objects when all that is required is to sit in being. No searching. No ridiculous conceptualizing and analyzing exactly like we are doing right now on a spiritual forum (what can I say - my ego was craving it this week).

[not]

I think if you divest the word God of its many associations and just get to its core then its highly relevant to OBEs AP etc... aren't all the people on this forum here to ultimately reach God/source/consciousness/pure awareness?

But to difuse this topic and redirect it slightly, I have a query on this topic...

If the people on this forum are in fact searching for the source/pure consciousness as a goal (and some of you might not be), then why are so many of us not placing attention on awareness/consciousness itself if that's our goal? But rather we are placing attention still on the distracting content of experience. I consider all non physical experiences still to be objective content. A more refined version than physical objects but still objects. Subtle objects if you will.

If pure consciousness is the goal then why are we being distracted by the shiny objects? Guides, angels, focus 27, the afterlife etc... - all still just content to distract you from the simple silence presence that you are.

Consciousness is everpresent but we are determined to ignore it even when we are seeking it

I think of the Adyashanti quote on the notion of all paths lead to god/truth... 'There's no such thing as a path to the truth. The truth is already here. Where are you going?"

Just a thought.

Focus 10 uses theta and low delta binaural beats blended. I wouldn't really worry too much about the frequency following response. I think the carrier signals have greater importance than we might think.

Are you sure that I don't need the three-breath exercise? The reason being is that in the script it says that you have to be able to get into a relaxed state later on.

Thanks.

Ah I see the confusion in my sentence...Definitely do the three breath exercise for sure. Its a simple beautiful exercise. Just that it doesn't matter whether you listen to binaural beats while doing it. What I wrote above I was just trying to say it is such a short exercise that binaural beats are not necessary to use with it.

I also want to know what binaural beats I should use in order to do the three deep breaths exercise in Bruce Moen's afterlife exploration book.

Thanks.

It's a short 3 breath exercise. I wouldn't worry about it. None. Any. Perhaps it would be more helpful to release the  feeling you have to do it a particular way.

I meant the fact that Jay was talking about the Institute "supposedly" avoiding the conversation where a physical "exit, as in the exit symptoms, weren't really talked about and seemed to be somewhat ignored there. I thought that meant that they were focusing more on a "walkthrough/Phasing" approach to it all.

In my experience I would say they don't avoid talking about physical exits but they don't actively talk about them either because they don't want to frontload your experiences when you go there. They are more than willing to discuss if you ask. Their flagship programs are  offered with little dogma at all. During exercises you are encouraged not to limit yourself to just lying in your CHEC unit being as still as possible. Some people do it with eyes open, sitting up, journaling as their experiences unfold etc...

They also have specific OBE programs with Bill Buhlman if you want to focus specifically on things like physical exits.

I didn't read the whole article and am not sure if his name was in the document but I'm pretty sure this study was also carried out partly by Skip Atwater who at the time was in the military who would soon join TMI as the executive director for many years.

There is also something of a military thread running through its history with Joe McMoneagle who was the leading remote viewer for the military for a number of years. Joe also taught programs at TMI and is married to Bob Monroe daughter, Nancy.

In regard to the bad blood that is running through TMI now - this has to do with how TMI was divided after Bob died. Be clear there are two business entities, The Monroe Institute and Monroe Products. The latter has been seen as the bad blood becasue it owns the rights to hemi sync and every time a program is run TMI owes Monroe Products money. This explains why in the early 2000s that Skip Atwater (the then Director) created SAM technology for TMI. With this they could run programs and keep all the profits. You will notice more than ever that a lot of TMI programs use SAM not hemi sync. That is becasue TMI don't have have rights to their own technology anymore. This is my general understanding but I could be wrong about some details. I am not quite clear who owns Monroe Products. This seems hazy

Well the story is super sad to begin with.

I think with this upsurge in mindfulness coming to the west, spirituality has been stripped from the practice of meditation and has been marketed to the masses on the basis of scientific backed health benefits only. Sadly this has left people utterly unprepared for anything spiritual that might arise in meditation.

And for years we see examples of spiritual emergence/kundalini/grace being treated from a position of ignorance leading to people being institutionalized and medicated. A number of the so called psychosis symptoms listed in the article have a very kundalini flavor. The spontaneous movements that being kriyas. The light shows behind the eyes that is the common hallmark of kundalini.

Put in the word "focus" and my entire post made more sense. Consciousness is always present. It's where "you" are putting your focus that counts. When a person lies down to fall asleep, they expect as a "give me" that the next thing they will remember is waking up again. But, it doesn't have to be that way. They can shift their "focus" onto a whole new thing. If they do, they remain "consciously" aware of the new reality they are experiencing. This is evident in "Phasing".

Yes, true it does make more sense. Thank you.

I suppose now my questions is what are you focusing? If consciousness is always present then what is doing the focusing? Is it not your mind? Correct me if i'm wrong but it sounds like you are saying consciousness is one thing and the focus you apply is a subset of that. Creating a veiling or unveiling of that consciousness if you like. After all, isn't applying focus to something an activity whereas consciousness is just 'being'? Are you not aware right now? You don't have to focus in order to be aware. It is the natural 'state'. You have to make an effort to veil it. And we veil it in society by doing things. We shift our focus onto objects all the time defocusing what is ever present.

I suppose, like in all of my posts, i'm just trying to point to awareness only being veiled by its contents not altered by it. And I think a lot of things being mentioned here including the word 'focus' are in fact part of the contents and don't directly apply to awareness itself (from the perspective of the character).

Well, here are the synonyms of the word awareness in the English language. I think we are all describing awareness from our own perspectives.


Synonyms & Antonyms of awareness a state of being aware
while strolling in the big city, maintain an awareness of what's going on around you

Synonyms for awareness
advertence, advertency, attention, cognizance, consciousness, ear, eye, heed, knowledge, mindfulness, note, notice, observance, observation

Words Related to awareness
hyperawareness, hyperconsciousness
advisement, care, concern, consideration, regard, watch
apprehension, discernment, grasp, mind, perception, recognition, thought, understanding

Well true, this may come down to personal definitions. But I would say as a caveat to the definitions laid out here that modern definitions of awareness are based on the recognized science of the time and the science of now is the matter model of consciousness so it will define awareness/consciousness in relation to objective content because it says that consciousness is derived from matter and entirely dependent upon it.

World -> Body -> Mind -> Spark of consciousness

rather than:

Consciousness -> Everything else

As I don't subscribe to this model (and my assumption is a lot of people of this forum dont either given their non-physical exploits) I personally don't value modern definitions too highly...but none the less I see what you're saying

Lets just say that we as physical characters during sleep are not always aware that we are aware, until we shift our focus into what we want to observe. Physical characters have imposed limitations of perception on purpose in order to perceive linear events for learning. But did you know that you exist as we speak into multiple realities simultaneously. Are you aware of what the "you" in those other realities are doing right now. No you are not, and this is the "opt out" thing Lumaza is talking about.

Good stuff. I do disagree though.

I don't think it is helpful to say 'did you know that you exist as we speak into multiple realities simultaneously' because the answer is no, i have no awareness of it. Isn't direct experience the best benchmark for reality? That is not within my awareness and so there is no evidence to suggest it exists. No one can say anything exists outside of awareness. For me to say that would require awareness of it.

If there is a chair but you have never had or never will have awareness of it then does it have any reality?

All the things i'm saying are not magical or mystical. I am saying that in my direct experience I have not experienced the absence of awareness. It is always present and the only thing that changes is the content. And the fact that we have things like time and matter and an 'I' at the centre of this entity are just a misperception. There is a reality to them from the perspective of this character but not from the perspective of awareness.

During regular dreams, we act as if whatever scenarios is playing is our true reality. We are not aware that ours bodies are sleeping right now and these scenarios we are being placed into are somewhat off. So, in these instances our physicals character does not have the awareness that we are dreaming. But the dream character however has it own awareness. So, you see, each point of consciousness has awareness but at a different, limited, only to itself focus. When the focus changes, so is the awareness shifting. When we do techniques to keep our awareness during dreams, then the moment we realize we are dreaming, we become lucid and from that point on, our dream character becomes aware that its physical body is sleeping, has the memories of its physical life and can start navigating the astral experiences. This is just the nature of physical characters. So, we are not always aware that we are aware. And that may sound contradiction, but this is the nature and complexity of the multiverse.

Well it seems we agree a limitation is occurring but just disagree on the source of this limitation.

I would agree that for example you can be walking in the forest with a friend in deep conversation and your attention is so focused on the conversation that you barely notice the forest. But this is not a limitation of awareness. It is a limitation of perception. In this case perception is veiling awareness but not changing it. And the same applies to your example of going from dreaming to lucid dreaming. The only thing that changes is the content.

If you were to remove thoughts, sensations, and perceptions from your experience you would just be left with awareness. Raw unfiltered awareness. So what would cause awareness to change in some way? How would you change your state of awareness? And what would that change look like? Try now to change your awareness without the use of thoughts, sensations, or perceptions.

Because for me change only occurs on the level of thought, sensation, and perception. And like I said in my previous response to you, thoughts, sensations, and perceptions occur within awareness and are made of it and therefore are entirely dependent upon it. I refer you to the movie screen analogy.

floriferous, could you describe in your opinion in the simplest way, what is the difference between a regular dream and a lucid dream. And also describe how do we become lucid. And when I say "we", I mean the way we perceive ourselves at this time in the physical world.

That's a good question.

I know you want me to say from unconscious awareness to conscious awareness but for me awareness is not what changes. Rather it is thoughts, sensations, and perception that change. And they are of the mind. It is not a change in the state of awareness that changes between dreaming and lucid dreaming but a change in the state of mind. And I would describe the process as a clarity occurring in these mental faculties. How we become lucid is not that clear cut. But I would say it relies on mental faculties. Like the technique of telling yourself when I see my hands in my dream I will become lucid. This involves perception and thought- mental processes. That is how we as we perceive ourselves as a body/mind become lucid in dreams.

That is my simple answer.

If your explore your experience now of dreaming, lucid dreaming, and the waking state you can not dispute that awareness is present in each of these states of mind. However, thoughts, sensations, and perception in these three states is intermittent and wavering. So if awareness is consistent and the mental faculties are not then why would we come to the assumption that it is awareness that is intermittent, wavering or changing between these states?

You can have awareness without thought. You can have awareness without sensations. You can have awareness without perception. But you can not have thoughts, sensations, or perceptions without awareness.

It is the primacy of all things. Thoughts, sensations, and perceptions appear within awareness not appear to it. A quick check of your own experience validates this. If we suggest that awareness changes between dreaming and lucid dreaming then what is implied by that is that the content of awareness (in this case the body/mind) is changing the very thing it is made out of.

And bringing it back to my first post - for me it's a misperception at the heart of this.

How to describe awareness. I am sure you realize how big that question really is.

You open your eyes see the sky you are aware. You don't open your eyes, you hear nothing and yet you immediately know if someone enters your 'space'.

Awareness does not fully happen in our mind. Our entire being has awareness, physical, spiritual, mental.

So conscious just means physically awake and aware. We can also be awake with little awareness. We usually just think of that as not paying attention.

Okay thanks for the clarification. So when you say sometimes you can be awake with little awareness are you saying awareness is reduced and therefore altered by the body and mind or are you saying that the physical body impedes your perception of awareness through this vessel but does not directly alter it?

Also you say awareness doesn't fully happen in the mind. Do you think the mind arose before awareness?

Straight to the question.

In my mind yes we lose conscious awareness ""of our physical"" self. Which only allows our other quieter non-physical awareness to kick in and move around freely. It's there all the time, it just fades into the background as we go about our day.

The only reason we don't always wake up with full on remembrance is quite literally that our body needs that down time. The moment it comes back online that other quieter non physical awareness simply recedes and must sometimes be teased back into remembrance.

Interesting. Maybe this accounts for my confusion with Lumazas post. Please define for me in your view the difference between awareness and conscious awareness

I think there's a lot of agreement on this forum so I want to stir the pot a little for the sake of engagement. No offense implied - just some healthy discussion before another tumbleweed passes through this withering forum...

Okay, Casey, now I see that in what you're saying we are basically talking about the same thing. I think perhaps semantics are getting in the way. I think we agree on the concepts but not the wording itself- because if you're agreeing it's really a loss of the 'game' or 'content' then I'm confused as to why you also refer to it as a loss of awareness when we are saying awareness is ever present. You seem to be happily interchanging the content of awareness with awareness itself. Seems like a confusing way of describing it to me to say the word awareness but actually mean something else (the 'game'). Am I overlooking something here?

This inturn brings up Lumazas post...

I think we "opt" to lose conscious awareness during our nocturnal shifts. But consciousness itself is always "present"

Your statement implies awareness is divided. Who is the 'we' awareness that is different from the ever-present awareness? On the surface these two sentences contradict one another. How can you lose conscious awareness and be ever-present at the same time? To lose awareness you have to be aware of the loss of awareness and so therefore it isn't a loss of awareness.

Are you are saying we lose the content of awareness but not awareness itself? It doesn't read that way but perhaps you can clarify?

To say we opt in to losing awareness implies the content of awareness (the body/mind in this case) can affect that which it is made of - awareness itself. To borrow from the classic non dual analogy - that would be like the movie screen being altered by the movie that plays on it. But in reality the movie comes and goes yet the screen remains always the same. Uncolored and unaltered by that which temporarily appears within it.

At the end of your post you talk in a similar way about experiencing a shift in awareness. If awareness is ever present then what is shifting? And shifting from what to what? Do you mean 'shift in awareness' or a 'shift in the content of awareness'? Because they are very different things.

As you are talking about OBEs I'm assuming that what you are referring to as shifting is your perception. Perceptions relate to objective content not awareness. Awareness is the subject not the object.

There is always what is,
and our individual experience of what is....
this is what provides the "torque" ( the spin ) that allows us to see, know, understand and even misunderstand
without the two and the differential this supplies we are nowhere. each has to be acknowledged to get anywhere

Casey

This is an interesting point and I agree that in the difference we can observe awareness more clearly. I would be interested to hear more from you on this.