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quote:Originally posted by James S

I think it's more because I'm accepting of the fact that this is the world and this is the society that we live in. You can either keep using up your energy by going against it, or you can sit back, conserve your energy and go with the flow.

Personally I hate the whole concept of money, materialism, and corporate domination and dictation of all we consume. Were there another viable way, I'd leave this western commercialist way in a heartbeat, but in my  situation, it's totally impractical to do so. I look instead at making the best of this situation I'm in, and I've tried to help make the best of it for my kids as well.

My spiritual journey is very important to me, but I can't lose sight of the fact that I am a part of this material world. Balance is needed.

James.

[] I hoped you would reply with something like this. I'm glad it was a misinterpretation on my part. I agree that balance between the two; materialism and spirituality is necessary. I just feel that the 'good' or 'healthy' amount of materialism is much, much less than living in this society would have you think.

Perhaps you think that the culture can never be changed. An attitude like yours wouldn't lead to change ("that's just the way things are..."). It's also not possible to change society through revolution or anything material like that. Change can only come through inspiring others to think for themselves, to seek and find, to develop their imagination, to love, to understand etc.

So why would we tell our children there's a Santa? Why do we tell them that believing is enough? Why do we tell them material things can make them happy? Why do we help fuel the fire of materialism?

This current material society has enslaved us physically in a monetary system, but that doesn't mean we are enslaved spiritually.

With Love
Meedan

Hi James,

quote:Basically I didn't stop my kids from believing in Santa or the Tooth fairy because of the joy I could see it brought them, knowing that it wasn't doing them any harm and that they'd discover the truth for themselves soon enough.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, since I think it does cause harm (more subtle harm that you may be thinking of), that I explained earlier.

quote:Kids percieve things differently to adults, and I don't think adults who try to change this are doing their kids any favours.

[] This one made me laugh when I first read it. I could have used that exact line for MY side of the argument. I hope you see why (little puzzle task for you []).

quote:Like it or not this is the culture we live in. ...My disagreement with Dr Chalko on this subject comes from a view that these concepts must be kept in balance within the society we are in, and not rejected because of personal philosophies. To turn young children against the ways of the culture they are being brought up in, whether we think it wrong or not, is far more likely to cause problems for them than do them good.

[] I was quite shocked by this. It is a highly materialistic statement, not something I was expecting here.

I guess all I can say is I don't hold 'society' to be as important as you seem to. What matters most to me is the mind, matter exists for the purpose of helping us to evolve spiritually. I would never compromise on matters of the mind for the sake of 'fitting in to society'.

Sorry if I have misinterpreted what you said.

With love
Meedan

[Children are told that it is TRUE]

[] I probably shouldn't have mentioned that fear now, you've interpreted it the wrong way. I'll get to that later (gotta stay in order []).

quote:One of the big problems I have with Tom Chalko's assesment is he is lumping intellect and imagination in togeather. Ok, it's important for them to be able to work together, but they are almost diametrically opposed functions within us.

Tom Chalko often uses the term 'intellect' to mean Mind/Spirit, as do I.

quote:Imagination however, needs to be seeded. It needs some input from the senses to spawn. Having the images of Santa force fed to us by the media could be seen as doing it all for us, but it is still just the seed, granted - a big seed. It is still up to the child to imagine exactly how Santa will apply to them. I don't see this as being any different to picking up a stick when I was a kid and pretending it was a light sabre.

All I can say is that I do find it very different. I also don't agree that imagination needs the senses, how could the universe be created if it wasn't imagined? - but that would be too off-topic to discuss if you disagree [8D].

Children are told that it is TRUE, that's one reason why it's so very different.

quote:Ouch! Something personal like this probably wasn't easy to share. Thank you - it helps understand your point of view. I don't have the understanding of what you might have gone through here. My only thoughts are the issues you had with these characters out of fantasy may have been more a symptom than part of the cause.

[] Ah here we are. While reading the first line, I wondered why you thought it wouldn't have been easy to share, then I found out: it's not as serious as you think. I should have been more clear, I guess. It was a fear that affected me probably... twice, two nights - nights that it was taking me longer to get to sleep, I thought the tooth fairy would come while I was awake, something I was afraid of. [:I] So it's not really an 'issue'.

quote:Again I'm sorry that you encountered something different Meedan, that it appears a lot of the joy in these things was denied to you, but you're case is a rare one, and though Dr Chalko's words might agree with your circumstances, they do not ring true for the majority of children / people developing their imagination.

(so much for staying in order). I wasn't denied anything like that really. I probably felt like most kids do about these things. I still remember the 'joy' of Santa perfectly well, but it was the presents I was normally thinking about.

quote:As to the materialism tied in with the belief of santa - again little children don't understand what materialism is. They understand that Santa is connected to getting lovely gifts and this is good. If they're guided right by their parents, they will also learn that giving lovely gifts to others is also good, as it makes others happy. This is a valuable lesson.

Again, I don't expect little children to understand what materialism is. I don't think giving or receiving gifts should/does make anyone 'happy', it brings them artificial pleasure that fades over time. Similar to the artificial 'happiness' that comes with drugs.

As you can probably tell, I'm anti-money and anti-consumerism. It is this love of gifts that is one of the huge barriers that stop us ever being able to get rid of the monetary system.

There are the REAL gifts; love, understanding... that don't give short-term pleasure, but contribute towards long-term happiness. You don't need a special day of the year to give these gifts. If you set a special 'happy' day of the year, you are practically choosing to have a 'less-happy/boring/unhappy' year.

Perhaps you think all children are born with the desire for material gifts.

quote:Imagination begets belief, belief begets hope. Hope in anything that you see as good. It is my hope that I will soon learn how to get the most out of the music software I now have on my PC, and learn to play the guitar well. I have this hope because I can imagine the music I will be able to produce when I can.

I would not say that belief is anywhere in that scenario. Again, I think that imagination has very little to do with faith. If you mean phrases like "I believe I can ...", I think that generally means "I think I can ...".

quote:I think the biggest gripe I have in all of this is the concepts put forward by Dr Tom Chalko as to exactly what is good for the mental development of children, and us as adults.
Now he is a doctor in what? Oh yes, that's right - he has a Ph.D. in laser holography.
Sure he may have discovered some rather valuable concepts in his mystical / spiritual journey, but does that qualify him and give him the experience to counter the findings of paediatricians, child psychologists and psychologists who KNOW what the benefits of developing the imagination in children through fantasy are.

I don't know what 'the experts' say about Santa Claus, but, Again, I think a child's imagination is vitally important, as does Tom Chalko. I've never been one to always accept what 'the experts' say on things anyway. The experts told me telepathy doesn't exist. The experts told me that the mind is in the brain. I agree with Tom Chalko on this one.

With Love
Meedan

Hi James

quote:Firstly, do you actually have any kids of your own?
Somehow I doubt from your comments that you have experienced first hand the joys of watching your children get excited about Santa or the Tooth Fairy.

You are correct [] , and I don't think my younger brother would count as the same in your eyes (or mine).

quote:Second, think back to when you were a little kid. Was it really that damaging for you to believe in such fantasies as Santa and the Tooth Fairy?

It was damaging for me yes. I 'believed' in things up until the point I made a huge leap in understanding the universe (when I was 18). I'm not saying Santa and the Tooth Fairy were 100% responsible for me surrendering my ability to think for years [], but it definitely was a factor.
I'm sure I'm the only one, but when I was very young and expecting the tooth fairy, I used to actually FEAR seeing the tooth fairy. Weird huh? []

quote:Children have absolutely no concept of this "big picture". They live for here and now, with no thought as to the meaning of life the universe and everything. The biggest problem I see with your arguments is you're applying adult reasoning to little children. It just doesn't work that way!

Ah, you're forgetting the main point here; It's not the specific fantasies, it's the underlying principles, things that will affect them when they are OLDER. Of course I would never expect a child to spend time pondering the 'big picture'.

quote:Such fantasies are a very important part of developing imagination in children. Imagination is absolutely critical to a child's development. Without it you have no direction. If you cannot imagine the unseen directions you wish to have your life go in, how are you supposed to get there. It takes imagination to achieve this.

If it isn't Santa, then it's imaginary friends. I think all kids at one time or another have imaginary friends. Should this be taken away from children also because it interferes with their progress towards oneness with the universe? Again, has such concepts caused them harm when they became adults?

`It is better to have Imagination than Knowledge` -Albert Einstein

I agree that imagination is fundamentally important. However, I see a clear difference between children using their imaginations for things like imaginary friends (things like this often inadvertently allow the child to explore its intellect/spirit), and what is 'pushed' by parents and TV as seemingly science fact. They tell you what he looks like, what he does, where he lives... Where does the child use his imagination in this process?

Is it good to present the idea of material presents making you happy anyway?

quote:You speak of beliefs as being a restriction. Not believing in things can be more psychologically damaging than holding on to certain beliefs. Belief can be liberating - it can give hope.

Hope of what? Is existence really that miserable?

quote:You're gross generalisation here of belief I think is aimed more at religious dogma used to control the masses. But even in this context, people's religious beliefs have allowed them to go beyond what would otherwise be a stagnant existence.

Yes I do use the word belief generally. Otherwise we'd have to go into irrelevant detail eg. I believe that I know...etc. Perhaps 'faith' is a better word for what I mean anyway.

quote:My God!! We're talking about the beliefs of little kids here! To them happiness is something you either are or aren't. They don't care about what causes it. They don't sit around exploring the philosophical and existential nature of the concept of happiness.

Again, those questions weren't for the kids. [] I was asking whether you have any ideas why kids get pleasure from santa, is it because of the presents, the 'magic' etc...?

[lack]

quote:I don't believe that Santa exist in the "physical", anymore, sorry to disappoint ya..but I do hold dear the happiness that it brings and why not?

Can you identify where that "happiness" comes from? What causes it?

quote:I mean, really...think about it, how many adults do you know that are messed up because they believed in Santa in their childhood?

Almost all adults that I know. Remember I'm not talking about Santa specifically, I'm talking about the concepts behind it, faith, materialism, etc. Depends on what you count as "messed up" of course.

quote:You need imagination to have faith.

I disagree, in fact, I think it often takes a certain lack of imagination to have 'faith'. For reasons I described earlier.

[know]

Nay, If you are christian, then you are probably still believing, like you were taught when you were younger - I'm not criticizing, just an observation. []

quote:I have to disagree with you here, it takes a wonderful imagination and faith to believe in things that most wouldn't. What do you think OOBE's are to most people?...a joke and a fantasy... that's what. The fact that children believe in Santa or the toothfairy while young, I think is a very healthy thing. I can only imagine what some person would be like if they not once believed in such things, how cold and cynical they would be.

I would just say here that imagination and faith are two very different things, one makes use of the mind, the other normally doesn't. I'm sure most people on these boards will tell you that they do not need to 'believe' in OOBEs, they know they exist. Of course, no matter what people believe the universe is, it is not going to change the reality of it.

Obviously I disagree James. []

quote: Are those of us who were brought up believing in Santa Claus now so psychologically disturbed we are unable to function in society?

Of course not, they are not so disturbed that they could not function in society, in fact I think it might help you to function in our current society. This is not about what's best to fit in to the 'typical life', the problem is that this IS the typical life.

quote:Such childhood fantasies cause no harm whatsoever, but rather they bring about a bit of joy and happiness for those few precious short years that children are able to believe in such things.

It sounds like you're saying that children need these things for joy and happiness. Why not give kids drugs then? Some fantasy that will bring them a bit of 'joy and happiness'. A problem with society today is that joy and happiness is seen as something for children only, or for one or two days of the year.

If it is important or highly beneficial for us to explore and attempt to discover the meaning of life and the purpose of the universe, then little things like having children believe that e.g material gifts make you happy, there is a santa/toothfairy/monster in the closet etc, can sidetrack them discovering the reality.

Very often, 'believing in things' means choosing not to think, not to explore other possibilities or verify things. Where the specific fantasy may pass, the 'believing' stays for some, the idea that 'someone somewhere will do something so I don't have to' stays for others. I think of most people on this board as seekers, and therefore I would not think that this applies to many here.

Children don't need fantasy to be happy, and neither do you.

[]

Obviously, this is only text from the first chapter, but I think he's wrong about a lot of that. I hope people don't read these things and believe in it just because they find it nice and comforting. My common sense and personal experience tells me that a lot of what he said is not true.



"The time that I have spent on this Earth was an era in which the simplicity of Truth was not understood and was rejected by many."

quote:Originally posted by yevgenysh


and yes, i read the book. it sounds really nice, the scene that he describes in MU, but can it really heppen? why did it disappear anyway?

It is possible yes, when - as he described - the people have learnt to agree with the laws of Mu and co-exist. I used to think it seemed too good to be true also. Bear in mind the 'wonderful' scene was the area in front of the main palace. I'm sure it was nice everywhere else, but you would always expect areas around any palaces to be particularly special anyway. Mu 'disappeared' due to a natural disaster, originating from certain processes in the core of Earth.

I agree lifebreath, love (and forgiveness) seem to be the best things to feel/project in any situation. There seem to be NO circumstances where these feelings can bring ANY harm or negative consequences. This is one of the most important lessons for everyone to learn in the universe.

quote:Originally posted by Lighthouse
Make sense?  People can only hurt us if we identify with the insult. If we feel the insult is not representative of us, we will just laugh it off.

I think you're forgetting physical attacks, bomohwkl could have meant that. It IS harder to forgive when you don't know why someone has chosen to hurt you, but it is still very possible. Finding a part of you that can love and forgive (eg.) someone who has killed a member of your family is difficult, but something that can and should be achieved.

quote:Originally posted by zaicer



In the book there is nothing saying that Human beings were engenired. It says that they came from diferent planets.
The evolution theory is good and it does hold together. The small bacteria joind together, started to live in colonies and slowly developed into worms or something like that, then they evolved step by step. Not all bacteria evolved, only a small group. Fast faward, we have the ape-like animals who later evolved into humans.

I am saying that macro-evolution does not happen on ANY planet. The book does suggest that macro-evolution is not true - on any planet. As far as I can remember, it was a whole different 'force' that the great spirit used to created humans. The Thiaooubians also explain that their intellects can create animals, human bodies etc in very short periods of time, they don't try to use bacteria and wait until they become humans.

zaicer, I think you misunderstood what the book is saying. The book is saying that the theories of "Macro-Evolution" or "common ancestry" are not true (Common sense also tells us this). People have the same organs because that is how they were designed. Humans and Animals can - over time - use their intellect to modify the design specifically, for example to make it harder for predators to be able to spot you.

I'm just summarising here, I probably haven't explained very well, it would probably take a whole new topic on macro-evolution to explain fully. I recommend reading "The Freedom of Choice" - from the same site - to understand more on evolution. www.thefreedomofchoice.com

quote from The Freedom of Choice:
"Simply because the evolution occurs in intellect. Physical and physiological changes occur only when someone consciously LEARNS something. You have to admit, that learning is a process of intellect rather than of the flesh."

Permanently happy? I would have to say: experiencing a certain blissful exchange of feelings (the one mentioned in my signature).  [] Also, developing this feeling to higher and higher states.

zaicer, brilliant post.

To us, at our level of spiritual development, for all intents and purposes, our higher selves ARE GOD. While at the level of development that we are, we need an 'interface' to god, our higher-selves. Eventually, when you are evolved enough, your 'higher-self' will be god itself.

Many people claim to experience 'oneness'. I think this is a misinterpretation. What people are experiencing is UNITY with their higher self. This involves knowledge of EVERYTHING. You can see how this can be mistaken for oneness or meeting God itself.

I'm sure everyone can figure out that forgetting much of the experience of meeting your higher-self, is for the same reason as forgetting your past lives. Knowledge is temporary, UNDERSTANDING is permanent.

Zaicer it sounds like you've already read this book but if you haven't, you will love it: www.thefreedomofchoice.com (its free and quite short). I recommend it to everyone.

The only problem with porn is that it promotes and sustains LUST. This might sound strange to people but lust is an opposite of love (i know there are others). What I have observed is that the more you CHOOSE to feel lust, the harder it is to feel love.
It is the same with other feelings and their opposites.

Still, you are COMPLETELY FREE to do whatever you want, there are no sins.

I disagree parvati. Speaking for myself, I'm not a gnat. It is very likely that nature was created to inspire us to THINK, and to try and figure it all out. Why would we have intellectual limitations placed on us while we are in physical bodies?

As long as we don't start 'believing' things, - this includes blatantly false 'scientific' theories - while trying to figure it all out, it is fairly easy to arrive at some very logical and probable conclusions.

Nagual and Seeker, I agree that interpretation can even lead personal experiences to be 'wrong'. That is why you still must ALWAYS make sure what you have 'discovered' MAKES SENSE.

I saw a program about Near-Death Experiences on TV years ago. The show was heavily biased. A man was lying in a hospital bed, when suddenly he felt a pain in his chest. He then found himself above his body (the usual NDE stuff). He then saw A LIGHT... etc.

This was used AS PROOF THAT THE CHRISTIAN HEAVEN EXISTS!

Logic and common sense is important. []

www.thefreedomofchoice.com

Ralphm, that's good that you can listen to background music with no problem. I think you have meditation mixed up though - I think there may be more people who make this same mistake (it's a common misconception).

Meditation is the silencing and clearing of the mind, with no thoughts whatsoever.

Concentration is the opposite, focusing on something, like visualisation for example. This is what you were doing.

Both are equally effective for spiritual development (its best to use both).

I fully agree with fallnangel, even though I do sometimes find myself playing music for background noise. Thanks for reminding me falln.

Not only is it bad for meditation and concentration, it can make you more, umm... 'mentally-lazy'. So wynn, if you currently listen to music for background noise, it will help your concentration if you stop.

I admit I've only had time to skim over the article (might be back later with more) but I can already see that the author has some concepts confused.

First of all, his entire conclusion seems to be based on the strange assumption that Earth is the only planet that has life on it.

He ignores how the 'intelligence in the non-physical realms' got there in the first place. Here he might have learnt that development of intelligence happens chronologically.

Just another point and I can't discuss it here since it would be too off-topic but Macro-Evolution is NOT true.

I don't know how else he has come to his conclusion about parallel lives. I wish he would actually give examples of the 'fallacies' he has encountered.

Like my quote said:

"...It is important to note, however, that at any stage of their evolution their conclusions are determined and limited by their Intellect and their Imagination..."

Thus you're always going to be "believing" that you know, it's presumed.

Seeker, you are dead right, believing is NOT ENOUGH, you have to KNOW. The following is extracted from another forum, it's by Tom Chalko.

"Beliefs have little to do with the Observable Reality of the Universe. At best, they are based on misinterpretation and misunderstanding of some Real Events. For this reason, believers do not feel any need to verify anything. They don't like to discuss alternatives and feel offended/upset if anyone dares to challenge foundations of their beliefs.

In contrast, those who aim to "know" constantly seek verification of their knowledge in Observable Reality. They constantly seek and analyse alternatives in search for "better explanation". To test their knowledge they make predictions of future events on the basis of their understanding of past and current observations of Reality. Any disagreement of their "knowledge" with observable Reality causes them to revise and rebuild foundations of their "knowledge" from scratch. Hence, those who seek to know are bound to change their understanding as they evolve.

It is important to note, however, that at any stage of their evolution their conclusions are determined and limited by their Intellect and their Imagination. Can anyone know anything that he/she cannot imagine or cannot understand?

Those who begin to know, become aware how much they do not know. Rather that getting depressed by self-admitted ignorance, they expand the context of their analysis and seek methods to improve their ability to understand. "


I HIGHLY HIGHLY [] recommend reading his book (it's short + free) www.thefreedomofchoice.com

This hopefully isn't what you are saying, but I think it's important to note:

God would not want robots who do 'his will'. He obviously gave us freedom of choice for a reason, so he wants us to do our will.

I don't know what you mean by a knowing rejection against god, you have to be careful when trying to define what god likes us doing and what he doesn't. He would obviously dislike being 'worshipped', a meaningless and unintelligent 'ritual' which is usually based around fear - something else he would hate to be (feared).

The way I see it, all god would want for us is for us to become as intelligent and spiritually evolved as he is. You could think of god as your father, or as a very evolved friend that you will eventually join and regularly communicate with. So, you don't even have to think about god yet! There's a lot to learn on the way...

Sin? No such thing. There are mistakes that we make and learn from. Mistakes don't 'anger' god (it's ludicrous that such an evolved being would feel the need to sustain an emotion such as anger). Mistakes are VITAL, how else can you learn?


[]

I disagree with the whole idea of sin, there is just choice, and natural consequences (good or bad). I do not think that anything is 'WRONG'. It would all depend on what you are aiming for. Certain activities can be against the purpose of the universe, but ultimately freedom of choice and learning from the consequences is the most important thing.

Masturbation is just another activity producing a short-term high. All things that do this: alcohol, drugs, certain foods, have a potential for addiction. These activities naturally discourage people from seeking the lasting, perpetual happiness that spiritual development and love can bring.

doubtsevenhere17, good post.

Like I said, I can't explain my position in a short way. That book does though.

I guess my mentality is different from most other users on this board. You wanted to hear different people's theories about reincarnation. You probably didn't want to discuss it to find out which one is CORRECT. That is what I would have been going for. I seek the truth and wouldn't stop till I get it, so I would criticize saying "that can't be true because..." etc.

So, sorry about that. [:I]


www.thefreedomofchoice.com