Messages

MJ, I finally got round to reading that discussion you linked to. Sorry but I really dont see how it "debunks" Pye at all - basically, all they say is that evolutionary theory has extended beyond Darwinism and into contemplating new interesting models. As well as giving him credit on the genetic point Pye makes, at the start of their discussion. If the points Pye makes are facts, then they still stand strong. Like pointing out the cambrian explosion (why so much life appearing so suddenly?), the other explosions of life after major disasters, the extra chromosone pair in human DNA compared with other primates, the fact that the same extremophile organisms exist today (sure there are more and different ones, but that we have exactly the same one today as well which have not evolved?) etc etc. I dont think the article you posted addresses any of these or other points Pye made. Would you mind filling me in on what arguments have been placed against these facts, if thats what they are?
And, errr, do me a favour and dont use the word "debunked". I hate that word!!!  


Just another point u made:

There is a very big difference in moving a few hundred miles and then producing a machine which can travel trillions of trillions of miles through a hostile environment.
There is also the question of why they found Earth, the amount of estimated planets, and the amount of stars in our galaxy alone is simply staggering. The amount of galaxies is simply impossible to comprehend.
Unless space is literally overflowing with space faring races (which we would have seen evidence of now), how (in the fifteen billion years of this universes age – although we should take 5-10 billion years off to give stars time to form, nova and produce the materials needed for planets, then the time for intelligence to develop and then produce space faring vehicles) in such a short space of time, and a window of literally a hundred thousand years or so, did these aliens find our planet out of the countless others, in countless solar systems, in countless galaxies?
I just think the chances of such a thing, out of so many potential exploration targets, in such a minutely narrow window of time is too staggeringly remote to even contemplate. Add to this we see no evidence of terraforming machines, no radio waves from alien civilisations polluting space, no DNA evidence for them having tampered with us, no evidence in all the samples we've taken to gauge the atmosphere though earths history.
While there could be aliens out there, I just don't see anything which could remotely suggest they've been here, let alone tampered with us.

Ok lets see:
-The earth is estimated to be 4 billion years old, and the universe 15 billion (though I believe this figure is being pushed further back all the time). Now, life on earth appeared 2 billion years ago, and humans are supposed to have evolved primarily in the last 1 million years (generous). So, from primate to us, in 1/2000'th the time since life appeared. And we have come up with our major technological advances, again to be generous, in the last 1000 years, which is again 1/1000th the time of the evolutionary period. Thats TINY!! And 1000 years is only 1/2,000,000th of the evolutionary time scale since life first appeared. Give our civilisation another 1000 years (another irrelvantly small fraction) and I see no reason why we could not become an inter-galactic civilisation. Looking at these sort of numbers, there is no reason another intelligent civilisation could have appeared, been given a few tens of thousands of years to complete advanced technology, and be flying around the galaxy today. They only need the slightest edge, in evolutionary timescale terms, to get ahead of us. Infact, there is no reason to think that another planet could not have formed and evolved a couple of billions of years before us - our estimates for the universe forming at at best weak estimates, 2 billion in 15 billion IMO is a realistic error, even given our currently knowledge which is changing all the time (as you said "give 5-10 bilions years for the stars to form - but 5 billions years is quite a lot of error!!!!!!!! More than enough for out purposes). However, IMO its not really necessary to argue this point:
- From that point to the greater timescale of the universe, bing bang theory is increasingly getting into seriously hot water. Red shift, if you consider the evidence coming in (well, evidence which has in actuality been around years and years now, just mainstream doesnt like considering it, big bang is taught in schools, and the former ideas are not being allowed an easy death due to how much science has invested in them, but now we have better telescopes, which are showing some rather telling anomalies which are becoming increasingly hard to ignore), has been well shown to be caused by something other than relative velocities, and indeed all our models for how space works are coming under heavy heavy strain. Gravity is looker weirder and weirder by the day, for instance, and the electric theory of the universe is gaining more and more ground - either of which would, in themselves, necessitate some redical re-evaluations of current theories. Erm I am sure there are other direct reasons to take big bang theory from its current dogmatic-truth status, but cant remember them. So anyway our age of the universe is based on red shift, which many forward thinking scientists realise is plain dodgy (red shifts occuring in discrete jumps, rather than continuous scales, finding heavily red shifted stars in binary systems with non-red shifted stars, quasars being right next to stars and galaxies with no red shift in them, there's more I cant remember but thats a taster). Given that, our timescale for the universe is thus entirely fallacious. Again, there is therefore no reason why another civilisation could have got ahead of us by billions of years, not just thousands.
- Imagine, your civilisation has reached a technological peak. You have had aeons to perfect technology that allows you to completely master the physical universe. You have perfected your own physical form to give yourself effective immortality, and have thousand even millions of years to play with. What is there to do next? The only thing left, create!! You start creating myriads of new life forms, on new planets - life is, after all, the most complex mechanism in the known universe, and certainly one of the most interesting to study. And heck, sure there are a lot of planets in the sky, but you have an eternity to play with, and your civilisation is already vast, probably spread over many times many solar systems. You keep monitoring there planets you've seeded, probably leaving equipment behind to keep a watch over your creations, maybe returning every few thousands or millions of years to see whats going on and make tweaks here and there.
- The technological barriers. Every time a scientists says something is impossible, new inventions and experiments prove these silly statements wrong. If you'd have described to the average joe one or a few hundred years ago the state of technology today, they would have laughed at you. If you'd described it to the intelligencia of those times, they'd have declared you insane. This is just one reason I have no doubt that we will become an inter-stellar civilisation, if we survive long enough without killing ourselves first. I mean, look at what we have done in the last 100, or even last 50 years!! We've come so far. Antigravity is in the works, zero point is waiting in the wings, there is so much more for us to explore.
- UFO's - if you havent thoroughly researched this field, you really should!! Since you say you dont think there are aliens here now, my guess is you have not looked into this too deeply, you might even rely on societal opinions to come to your conclusions on this. But the evidence that there are advanced craft around is utterly mountainous! Society is in denial of this at the moment, for the most part, which is a real real shame. I have videos stored on my computer and have seen many more, police videos, military videos, civilian videos, nasa videos, photos, descriptions from credible witnesses, books by highly credible people, government documents by the truckload and we know there's much more they keep hidden. Aye, I am in no doubt about UFO's, which display very advanced technology, and even sometimes more life like characteristics.

So yeah, I dont think we should discount any theory yet, not even ID



Rob

He is trying to understand the world, therefore he'll be fine! As for the girl, I dunno about that. Either way, he'll learn something, so it's all good. I cant comment any further than that since I have never seen them together. Instincts are usually right, but he will find out in good time one way or another.
Good film  

Rob

Eh, dont worry yourself about it. Most people would probably say I think too much, but look at me I'm normal! <twitches>
Anyway, seriously, the example you gave  - how do you know he is not right? Thinking a lot can give you more insight, which is what will probably happen to him more and more in the long run, and eventually, if he does think too much, this is something he will notice.
Otherwise, maybe get him to be more introspective, perhaps by telling him to watch himself to see if he thinks that he is thinking too much.
My opinions, anyhow.

When you can see your own self clearly, you see its unfathomably vast. And then after a while you realise it this way because we are all part of the cosmic consciousness (God). This source is the stream that powers life, that makes us alive, but the "we" we see in every day life is usually just the tiniest tip of our true selves, boxed into personality, habits, and other learned processes, all supported by/supporting the unconscious mind
IMO

ps in other news, I am reading a book called "Strangers to Ourselves" at the moment and highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know more about the unconscious and conscious. Very good!

Interesting point Stookie, the media rarely covers all the necessary sides of an issue as important as this, although if their stats are right they speak for themselves

Leilah:

Better yet, Don't be a soldier untill youv'e read "Civil Disobedience" by Henry David Thoreau.

Dont know that one, will try to get a copy. Also good is "War is a Racket" by Brigadier General Smedley D. Butler.

Lol, no idea about the music, but that was cool!!!!!!!  :thumbsup:

Anyway, I was very relaxed, I say my body could have been alsleep, do you reckon I could have been in delta? How can you tell which state you are in?

A little unlikely!! Delta trance is very deep, and hard to get into. I am not sure I have ever been there, maybe bordering it a few times though..
More likely you were in alpha or theta. Each has its own characteristic symptoms with onset which you will learn to recognise. For instance, alpha your body might feel slightly heavy, but it wont be so so different to normal consciousness. Theta if feels much heavier, and you will notice other effects too. Such as the mind clearing even more of surface thoughts and kinda expanding, perhaps some visual type stuff (for me, its like my vision opens up behind closed eyelids, its weird), and you will be less aware of your body, its position, and sensation.
There is a lot of info on trance states on the net, suggest reading up on them in you want a better idea.

hope this helps

NickJW: Sleep paralysis and trance are different things.

Rob

MJ

I do not particularly subscribe to any theory of how life came to being, I dont think anyone has properly nailed the question yet, although I kinda see an alternative little known about explanation, involving the work of Reich, but wont go into that here. I could give some info if you like but thats not really why I am posting.

I really can't see how people can turn their backs on some of the greatest discoveries in our history of a species because it doesn't fit with their world view.

Such as?

I used to believe in evolution theory because that what I was taught and it seemed reasonable. But then I read just one article that made me change my mind on this, I think I found the right one, I strongly recommend you take a look it:

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/darwinism.1.html

Rob

[two of you]

Okey I is back. Quick comments:

Souljah: You have spoken of krishnamurti in a very positive light a few times now. Gotta say my opinion on his work differs somewhat - I bought one of his books ("The Book of Life") out of curiosity, but couldnt read it because I disagreed with so much.
(picks up book and opens at random - first thing I just read is "conflict of any kind - physical, psychological, intellectual - is a waste of energy". Good example. My own exporation of my own mind, psychology and, to no small extent, spirituality was kick started by my intense insecurities when I was younger (ie internal conflict), which it taught me sooo much. Then there are the technological advances, human closeness, and determination after the fact to make a better world and to not allow it to happen again that came from the World Wars. So my opinion is that you can often learn often at least as much from conflict as from its opposite   )
I am reminded of something I read once that said that as you progress up the spiritual levels, the Truth of things changes, so that at each level it looks completely different to the last. Maybe its just each to their own level and zone on that level. If so, then krishnamurti is much closed to yours and a long way from mine!!

Next thing to you:

just a little wider...just one more time.

You say you are an intuitive practitioner. Do you intuitively think that comments like this are going to help lead to a productive and positive outcome?
(btw I admit many of Nays comments to you have been far from perfect, but please try to refrain from using this as an excuse. And yes, I am far from perfect as well, and more than happy to admit it. I also usually try to clear up any mess this imperfection may cause).
Infact, I would like to ask the two of you to stop these vicious comments you are aiming at eachother. Nay, yes, getting things "off your chest" may help, but in the long run, those "things" will cause more "things" to be piled on souljahs chest, which she will then unload into these forums, and you both perpetuate a very nasty argument with eachother. So! I might suggest that in the short term holding back the angry and superior comments (which you *BOTH* are making) might, at least in Nays case, make you want to explode (which you can do, but try to aim the flak at a pillow or something similar!), but being polite and courteous will take the discussion in an upwards direction and, in the long term, stop you from getting so angry or whatever to begin with.
I mean, there are obviously things you can agree upon, is there no way you can focus on this and allow these agreements to lead to an agreeable tone, instead of getting emotional over what you disagree about and letting this dominate your posts? I'm not saying dont disagree, because I think its valuable to do so, just asking you to not take it so personally when you do so.
Take MJ for instance. He could have responded to my sharp pokey and, lets face it, somewhat odd, post to him, with something similar, angry or insulting, and it may be argued that he would have had a right to have done so. But he didn't, and we are now having a good positive discussion which, I think, we are both learning from - right MJ?


Anyhow...

MJ (lol, I called u MH before, oops):
I have enormous issues with the rejection of science by much of the spiritual community too.

Just a quick question really, and this has been something troubling me more than a lot of other stuff of late. If science isn't adequately equipped to deal with much (which I can fully believe in its current state), why is a belief system bourn on nothing but personal belief equipped to do such a thing?

I am not sure it is entirely fair to reduce everything to personal belief, without understanding the reasons for holding those beliefs. For instance, your experiences of astral projection, you believe you can astral project, and to the average scientist this is all it would be, a deluded belief. But this is something you know science has difficulty even verifying the existence of at all (so far, although there have been some good experiments - you probably know them better than me since they involved monroe). So the issue becomes how spiritual belief is rooted in experience (1st, 2nd or 3rd hand, as you well pointed out), which is often of an intensely personal kind and/or non-repeatable, whereas scientific verification requires repeatable and measurable results. I also share your opinion that science will eventually explore other realms such as astral, and verify the existence of entities/spirits and etc, just that new instrumentation and approaches will have to be evolved first.
Its nice to see that this has already started, although that it has is a fact mostly unknown to people involved in spiritual pursuits. There have been some very good advances. From China, where they take investigating these things much more seriously, I have a lot of very good experiments saved on my computer done with a Qui-Gong master, in a Chinese university, showing the effect of his projecting Chi with intent onto various measuring apparatus. Very positive results on that theme.

Moving from this to a point you raised to me before:

The problem with parapsychological research to date is that it is very hard to produce under laboratory settings, and even hard to produce reliably. I agree there is masses of data there which suggest some amazing things are going on, but until it can be put into some form of objective framework it will remain on the fringes of science.

Do you mean by framework, an experimental framework (ie how to conduct experiments), or an intellectual framework of understanding (ie whats going on)?
As my above bit indicates, there are some good experimental frameworks evolving already. Added to this, are you familiar with the work of Rupert Sheldrake, or William Tiller and his IIED's I think he calls them? Some very good stuff there.
But as for an intellectual framework to put it in....tricky!! People relate it to quantum effects and etc, but you probably know this and the issues it runs into.

This in itself makes me questions such things i.e. similar experiences but very different view points, what part does belief play in this?

Yes, you are making me wonder too  

I used to be very much led by belief, and I went through a pretty traumatic time when I looked at my beliefs under a critical light and dropped a lot of them. I didn't discount these beliefs totally, but I moved them from where I had stored them as 'knowns' to just possibilities.

Wow, gotta respect you for that!! Nice one.

Friends generally have similar view points, and if you discuss such matters, that could be a link to why your experiences are similar.
During these times with fear, did you have any other paralysis or projection episodes at all? And if so did they have neg elements or not?

Hmmm, first point, not really. I only really started discussing this with friends who had experiences of this kind, after I had been through everything I have been discussing with you here, and by that point they had also had "untainted" experiences from before we had even met, and continuing beyond this time. For instance, two friends, one had "night terrors" when much younger involving him becoming totally obsessively demented, and seeing snakes and spiders falling from the ceiling, writhing over the floor, etc (btw this obsessive quality of what I think are neg attacks like this leads me into the OCD type complex I think we can grow up with). Another friend has often woken up to see spiders crawling around his room. And you have had the spiders thing too. Which reminds me, I once had an experience where in a dream there was a nasty red and white snake in my lap, hissing at me. I was terrified and could barely move, then it bit me in the thigh, and I woke up with a stabbing pain where I had been "dream bitten" (to me, indicating more than a creation of the mind). So why snakes and spiders so much? My friend isnt scared of spiders, he is more the type who would carelessly pick them up, and there is a definite link to people seeing both these things at all ages, which kinda indicates my other friend when he was young was not just hallucinating spiders and snakes because he was afraid of them too. I am not afraid of snakes, either. I mean, there could be some "archetypal fears", but again, why only manifest visions of what the collective mind is afraid of? Why not the other archetypal stuff, negative or positive? And why such an overwhelming emphasis on snakes and spiders? To me, it indicates some level of objective reality, but if you have any other suggestions we have not covered yet I would love to hear them.
Second question you asked: When I was going to bed at night more afraid, I did not have any other paralysis, projection experiences, or shadow sightings.

When I started to consciously attempt to project (I would go to bed early and spend a few hours each night trying) my brother who slept on a bunk bed above me started to have paralysis and energy episodes and also some pretty scary projection experiences (things pulling his legs and he'd have to hold onto the ground to stop being pulled into the sky).
My brother has no interest with anything one could term spiritual or religious; he's the archetypal sports buff who likes a drink. Before my projection attempts he never experienced anything like this to his memory, and since I moved out of home, he hasn't experienced anything since.
One occasion he was in Cyprus, and he was continuing to have paralysis episodes which seemed to link up to times when I was either projecting or attempting to project.

That is really really REAALLY interesting!!!
I wonder, would you be prepared to try covering your body in scared symbols like I did, to see if it does anything? Let me know if you are interested and I will dig out the precise details.

Perhaps your Dads nightmare precipitated your neg experience, or your seeming neg experience caused your dads nightmare. I really don't know.

Ooooh now I really had not considered the first option. Yup, loosens my beliefs a bit   .
I think it was the Celts who did not believe in the concepts of "right or wrong" like we do today, but instead saw everything on a line between "probably correct/yes" and "probably incorrect/no". I suppose this is true in life and even more so with respect to spiritual experiences. I mean, even if we have experienced something we may be able to say "I remember experiencing that" but drawing definite, absolute, conclusions from there is probably a bad idea, even if IMO it still is one of the most solid starting points.
I will endeavour to take this point of view more in the future.

I worry about saying too much or the wrong thing when I get carried away in a post. I'm not really out to disprove anything; I've had strange experiences too and am looking for answers. I think discussion from all view points is valuable and helpful .

You and me both......and on the final comment there <looks at shoes> you are entirely right.

And I take back what I said about nothing constructive coming from this, thanks for proving me wrong

:hippy3:

Hahahahahaha!  damn!  You're good!  I feel guilty already..hehehehe.

Bwahahahahahaha I win!!  :woot:
Lol, it was not my intention to make u feel guilty though.

All kidding aside.. it is not healthy to hold in emotions that need to get out.  Yeah, yeah, I'm not saying it's a free for all and for you to cuss out every person that ticks you off....oh, wait, maybe I am..LOL!

LOL!!!
But hey, you are right. Although I dont always hold them in, I just release them in a way nobody else can see  :ninjahide: .

Before I even finished reading this I thought you were "thinking too much" about it.  So why is it a bad thing if others find your words worth hanging on?

Hey, that I can cope with - although the ego boost it gives does make me uncomfortable. Its more when I make neg suggestions and scare the living hell out of them that I feel bad for it!!!!!!

About reading my past posts... I was referring to two and half years ago..LOL.  I was a fountain that just wouldn't stop..  Oh, god...it's embarrassing now..all those personal details.  I've learned to hold my cards a little closer to my chest, well...as close as I can get to my ample bosom.  :peace:

TEEEeehehehehe I remember well!!!! But hey, you said it yourself, better out than in right?? And it was all good stuff, people are here are, in the vast majority of cases, mature enuff to handle it.....maybe even the stuff you told me in private (um, well maybe anyway         ).
And ample busoms....I like it  :yippee: Yey Nay has large breasts! I like you even more ROFL!!!

Rob

And now I really really REEEAAALLY have to go to bed!!!

Oh what the heck, its a good post u made and bearing a nice tone (thanks for that), I will answer a few of your direct q's  and some other points:

SO the above could have been dream images, hallucinations and a coincidence. How many times has your Dad had a bad dream he couldn't remember? He could have bad dreams most nights, but forgot them (as you said he rarely remembers his dreams, and waking someone during REM does help recall), on the night in question he was awoken by you with the dream occurring so it stuck fresh in his mind. That is not outside the realms of plausibility surely?

But in that dream I was possessed - thats just too odd. And he was waking and going back to sleep all that night, not just when I had my experience, which is most unusual for it. Combined with the fact that my other experiences have knock on effects to him - I think its well beyond the realm of coincidence.

The reason the scientific community are incapable of considering the other options we are discussion is because there is not a single empirical fact to suggest such things are real. If there was, science would consider them.

...really? It took something like 7 years before the scientific community and free press accepted reality of manned flight, even with thousand of people witnessing the Wright brothers and their planes. I could give many times many examples of this, its something I have explored extensively, and the same attitudes are in place today as there were then. Eg huge amounts of data exist in the realms of parapsychology (psychism etc), sometimes with some very noteable figures championing it, yet this is not commonly accepted or discussed material.
Btw reams of data proving the existance of spirits and etc exists, although I admit its hard to find it sometimes.

Now your second use of logic, you now state most instances of night terrors are neg attacks. This is once again a belief and nothing more. If you have empirical evidence which can be verified independently and reproduced, please supply it, because we need things like that to prove either way the existence of negs.

OOhh that would take a while. Maybe some other time. But its more the collection of linking data that does it for me, rather than any one thing. Its not a firm belief of mine, more a working hypothesis.

I have talked many times on this forum about a form of sleep paralysis I have experienced hundreds of times.....Why add negs?

Curious I admit. IMO its again a logical link between interrelated sets of data. We will agree to differ. I might come back to this in a few days tho.

I was making a drink and all of a sudden I was hit by vibrations and very noticeable change in consciousness.

Bizzarre!! Very odd I admit. Except like I said, for me it was definately a different feeling/energy signature/etc to normal vibrations, and occured when I was searching for neg realted stuff. And while you might get vibrations and etc hitting regularly, for me its not common at all and takes a long time to get to an appropriate state for them.
Good points though.

I read scientific journals frequently,

Cool, same.

My sister is a trained Doctor, my girlfriend works in medicine and I have friends who are doctors too.
Are you trying to say that you cannot make yourself ill through belief or suggestion?

LOL OK, fair. I knew it was weak when I posted it, I really shouldn't have. Again though, to come back to the main point, its the fact that I was not expecting this and had no (conscious) knowledge of these symptoms thats the clincher for me, so I dont see how I could have induced them myself. Combined with the fact the syptoms were spot on with those prescribed in said article. There is more to this, again unrelated and half related topics I have read up on over the years, about energy links to events and things to physical traumas and injuries, but I wont go into all that here.

I agree it's interesting that your Dad got ill at the same time. Where was he on holiday? Is it totally outside the realms of possibility it could have been a bug or something?
Even if there is no explanation (and you fail to use coincidence), the point I was making was that I see no need to attribute this to negs what-so-ever.

Yes, IMO its just too much for coincidence. Consider: Same symptoms, same timing, no bugs/etc came up in the tests done on him. Combined with the incident of his dream when I had that experience than night, and the totally unexpected rashes which happened that other time. The links between whats going on with me and happening with him are just too strong to be coincidence. And that this was a neg-links-removing exercise, as were the protective warding symbols I drew on myself, and the dream he had (neg related remember) were when I saw what I thought was a neg. Again, too many links drawing parellels to neg activity. Further, about the sympathetic response he had, I can only place my finger on one other incident even slightly like these three, which happened in my early childhood. So! The only times it has happened were when there were strong neg indicators. Too strong to dismiss, IMO.
Hmm, I am sure the above could be much clearer, but you get the idea.

Please quote where I said "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" because I have scanned my reply and can find nothing which even alludes to that. Putting words in my mouth and arguing with them is simply arguing with yourself.

hahaha funny! First post dude, near the start:

I'm not saying you lied, just that our beliefs colour our perceptions and memories – and strong beliefs affect our perception strongly.

My whole point in this is we either adhere to science or we throw it out of the window. If we adhere to it, and try and discover the reasons behind this phenomenon using its principles, we have a direction to go in.

Hhhmm, I adhere to scientific principles wherever possible but I am always on the lookout for other people (and yes myself) allowing belief etc etc filters to get in the way of this process, or just making bad science.

By attributing everything to negs, and denying scientific explanations for such phenomena, we are throwing science out of the window.

Science should include everything, the failure I see in this regard is its materialistic physical approach and belief of the vast majority of scientists to get in the way of applying scientific principles to otherworldly issues. So I dont think invoking negs necessarily means abandoning science, but more extending it in a way that most scientists cannot.

I have projected since childhood

Nice! I am jealous  

For example, I could ask you what the subconscious is, no doubt you can give me a dictionary definition or similar, but that is just words.

oOOoooh no I wouldn't dare! I would make suggestons of what I know through experience, then shrug and say "so much I dont know". "Man who believed his wife was a hat" book etc (sure u have read, great book!!).

Please point to the reasoning you mean. I'm not even going to reiterate my point again.
Where have I stated that a belief in negs makes one have daily or nightly neg attacks? I don't see what this has to do with anything.

You implied my imagination created the experience. Yet it has only ever created neg like experiences, nothing else, nor has dream bleed created anything else. The same can be said of experiences by friends of mine. And if it was fear driven imagination created, then why when I was actually afraid did I not see more? For you to consider more than a question btw.
IMO even invoking archetypes about spiders in this area of discussion leaves big holes here.

To use your logic, if you went as far to sleep over running water (which implies you neg belief is much bigger than you are letting on) and you still saw a 'green thing'. Surlely that proves it couldn't have been a neg in your belief system (ie the running water should have stopped it). The fact you are willing to still believe it's a neg, when belief defences you hold should have stopped it, says more about where you are coming from than I.

It was the similarity to other experiences I have mentioned that made me come to this conclusion, combined with the other things that happened at the time. Voices leading to green vision thing leading to paralysis/fear whacker.

I didn't want to make this reply but you goaded me into it with attacks.

Oops, sorry! Seriously, I guess I was being out of line, sorry about that.

Anyway, your last post was of a high quality, thanks.

Rob

Hey hey!!

I really hope you aren't being passive aggressive.. ya know the kind.... where people act all nice, yet aren't really meaning it...

Hummm, to you? Nope! Not even the slightest. Think you have a heart of gold and are wonderful  :thumbsup: Honestly.

We'd all be batty if we didn't allow those truthful emotions to come out!

Each to their own!!! I know its a healthy thing for you, but for me, even if I express truthful negative feelings to someone, then I feel bad for it afterwards, worry about it, and generally feel terrible. Makes things much worst for me, which is why if I am het up about something I try to never post until its passed, and even then, I have to exercise extreme restraint and re-read and edit my post loads of times before submitting to make sure I dont feel like dirt after posting. Trust me, its for the best!!  

LOL! yeah, that's it, let it out. No need to say joke. I got the jest of it.  I admire people being honest with their feelings.. and if you find me evil, then GREAT! And please think on that for a minute...I mean it...really reflect on it.

No need to reflect! I dont and never have hated you or thought u even slightly evil - as I have said, quite the opposite, I know you have the best of intentions and frankly thats what counts most in my book.

I meant catalyst, in the sense that YOU are the beginning....see?

Hummhummmdeedumm. Well, its not something I ever really considered before. Oh no thats a lie, I have discussed neg stuff with friends and family occasionally and then wondered afterwards if it was a good idea, if I was starting something unnecessary and/or bad in their head. But I always analyse my reasons, and look deeply into the issue, and sometimes feel bad when I realise they are hanging on my words and I was subconsciously using this to my advantage to get an ego boost from their need for me driven by fear of what I was saying. Yeah, done that a couple of times, pretty poor to say the least, but now I spotted that its not such an issue any more. I certainly dont sweep it under the carpet!

Absolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".

I've been that 5yr old... has NO ONE read my older posts??? I opened myself up sooo wide for you people and you didn't see it.

Heeey there, I know you have and I read many of the things u said (OK well not all, I skimmed much of this topic and only posted when I saw that dude I forget name of asking for people to type more experiences, but I will go back and read I promise  :crybaby:  :reading: ). What I said wasnt aimed at you in any way, it was more of a general comment on that attitude.

Much  :heart1:

Rob

ps away for a few days, prob speak next when I get back

:wave: Heey Naay!!!:wave:

What, I don't get to be yelled at too?

RaaAAAaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Better?!

Why are you so upset Rob?  I really fail to see what you are so upset about..

Do I come across as so upset? I promise its not intended!! I was more trying to be funny while at the same time presenting strong arguments in favour of what I am talking about. Although I do admit to being a tad angry for a very brief period of time when I noticed what I thought were veiled jabs at me. But yeah, guess this is an issue I do feel fairly strongly about.
Oh yeah, and I guess it would be fair to tell you that, if you can categorise people into various personality groups, one way to do so would leave me in the obsessive compulsive group (dont say anything chicken or egg chicken or egg lalalalala), and we types dont like having people telling us we are wrong about things which are close to the heart! In fact, I generally dont talk about things that are close to heart for this very reason. Its hard sometimes.

Are you having problems to date?

Naa, quite the opposite, my life has taken an upswing of late and things are moving. Which is good!! As for negs, I haven't seen or really thought about the whole thing in quite a while. But ya know, these topic, I thought I should add my experiences since they are varied and IMO compelling.
Yeah, things are peachy at the moment. I am mentally stronger than I have been in quite some time, which is pretty much the only reason I am allowing myself to talk about and argue this subject in such depth, and allow my hot-collared-ness to come out in type.

Does the prospect of you being the catalyst for negs bothering you really upset you that much?  I know I can ask you these question and not have to fear you are going to get defensive and then personally attack me....least I hope so.  :shifty:

You stupid stupid evil girl!!!! Hehehe joke joke joke tehehehehe
:bouncy:
Anyhow!
I am afraid I dont fully understand the first question   . I dont really see myself as a catalyst for negs, but I am not entirely sure I know what you mean by that!

Basically I guess what I'm asking is what is so upsetting about the belief, understanding, whatever we should call it, that we create or pull negativity towards us?

Absolutely nothing, and I completely agree with this point of view. But with respect to my experiences, I do feel some small tick of annoyance at people who say that a 5 year old (or in other cases I have seen and heard about, young babies not even walking yet) would or could do such a thing to themselves on the scale that I experienced. Yeah, I do find that point of view kinda sick, to tell the truth. And, it sounds far too much like trying to blame someone - like "its your fault u got negs/are imagining them, u should stop being so damn negative".

PS.. you're freaking me out...lol. never seen ya so upset. Should I be scared?   :scared3:

Aww sorry!!!! Noooo dont be scared!! And thanks for your concern!!! Actually, and this might seem kinda twisted from your end, but the fact that I am here and allowing myself to display heady emotions in these forums is more of a good sign. I am very well at the moment thanks Nay, all is well is the Land of Rob.

hearts7

Rob

MJ I wasnt going to reply to your post, but I am actually slightly hacked off, and am now going to speak a very small portion of my mind to you. Well, at least at first I was hacked off, especially after reading your post a few more times, but now I see the humour in it. Knew I would find a laugh sooner or later!! So thanks for the chuckle!!!!!! But before I start my reply proper, I would like to introduce a little fwiend of miwne to you.....be warned, dont mess!!!!!!


:locolaugh:
Anyway where was I.......   :hail1: :hail1: :hail1: :hail1: :soapbox2: ....
- evidently compulsory soapbox: check!
- smilies prostrating themselves at my godliness: check!

Right! Let the rant begin!! :boxing2:

And as I said, you would dismiss what I said because you are caught in your own belief system.

Sorry bro but nothing in your post was new to me - not one sentence! The reason I can dismiss your points is because I can, and believe I just did, comprehensively dismantle every argument you forwarded. Belief is irrelevant, we are talking logic here, and IMO you're arguments were kinda short in that regard. Sorry but thats the way I see it. Oh yeah, and I could say exactly the same as your above comment back at you, but it doesnt get us anywhere, which is why I purposefully avoided commenting on this the first time you said it.
You know, I even started trying to convince myself to try on your beliefs, to see how they fitted, until after a while I realised again that they relied only on a combination of coincidental factors all coming together at the right times and places, none of which happened on virtually any other occasion, leading to an explanation which could not fully explain what I went through anyway. That you had to resort to saying "oh well, you obviously remember it differently to what actually happened" is very telling indeed. The second of many ego and belief driven statements that can be aimed in both directions but ultimately get us nowhere.

The line of reasoning you give is akin to the brain is a product of the mind. The great thing about that is you can ignore everything, and believe what you want cause there is no arguing with it.

Eh? Well yes I do think that consciousness goes beyond the brain, thank you for noticing this and pointing it out! And I have good reason to hold this opinion, though I aint going to lower something so precious into this debate....But! I fail to see how your point has anything to do with anything you are arguing for - quite the opposite, as I see it, it implies a much higher degree of power for the mind, and the ability to create my own experiences.

I guess I choose not to live in such a closed world view.

The second implication of this is that I do. Get real!!!! On both points. I am the one saying something is possible, you are saying its not. I fail to see how that makes you "open minded"!!!!!  
And as for my not accepting your arguments (ie being closed to them), I have covered that already. Like I said, the same principle applies to your attitudes, only your logic is not as strong, so I would say it applies to you more than I....

If you know as much as you say, then you also know that belief and expectation is paramount in astral experiences.

Again, this has little to do with anything, and is nothing more than yet another cheap get out clause... In every single example I gave, and I stated this clearly and explicitly a number of times in an evidently futile attempt to pre-squish this point of contention, I was not expecting the results I got, or the experiences that happened (and neither was my Dad). With the slight exception of when I saw that thing standing at the bottom of my bed, since I already had a good inkling that negs were real by that point, but in no way was I obsessing over this fact at the time. Conversely, in the days and weeks following, I fully admit to being properly scared at night going to bed but guess what? No more neg sightings!!! Wow how does that work??? I mean, if your reasoning were correct, then I should have been swamped by nightmares and things standing around my bed. Huh yeah isnt it odd that I wasnt??? Wonder why that is HHMmmmm.....could it be that I actually saw something real, and not something that was a figment of my imagination - which is in essence all you are saying? If this was my imagination, its very odd how I have only ever imagined up a couple of negs, isnt it? And never seen anything else??? FfffffFFfffffs... trust me my imagination extends way beyond negs, but I dont tend to see 5 mile tall gleaming white castles out my window when I wake up (damn hehe wish I did tho that would be cool).
And just incase I am not making a strong enough argument backed with experience, when I had the quick attack, with the weird green thing above me, I was actually under the assumption ("belief" if you like) that the running water barrier I was sleeping over would filter that sort of thing out. So again, your accusation is aaaahhhhh "not entirely compatible with reality"....
Oh yeah, and using this argument allows you to neatly sweep aside any evidence I can put to you that you dont like the sound of (I thought the addition of my fathers experiences would filter this out, guess I was wrong), so its not so much as an argument, as a....well....like I said....an easy get out clause.

Now, unless you have something really nice, exceedingly compelling, or intentionally funny to say - and are prepared to filter out all the underhand, hidden snipes in your posts before hitting "submit", be a good boy and dont reply to me on this aye? (Or else I might release Fluffy on you, and then you'll be sorry!!!). I would much rather this sorry excuse for a debate we are having ended here. I seriously doubt continuing it will take us anywhere constructive, I feel like I am ....:wall: . But then, I should have remembered that its impossible to challenge beliefs and expect change, or even expect to come out of it not smelling of "au de sewage".

<dismounts soapbox and orders minions to clear orf>

I was, and still am, somewhat skeptical about the Indigo thing. From an intellectual viewpoint, its oh so easy to rationalise it away. But I am also curious and open minded to the possibility and try to get beyond simple "rational" explanations that best fit with my beliefs, and am always on the lookout to spot when my ego is getting puffed up (either through the "ooh I am special" route, or the "look at those silly children!! And look at the manipulative folks/idiots/naive channelers who are making ££ from this. I am so much more logical than they are" - VERY easy traps to fall into.......... .....). I mean yeah, there are certainly people out there jumping on the bandwagon, but dont throw the baby out with the bathwater, as they say.
So yeah, pls try not to be so quick to jump to conclusions without looking deeply into the subject matter first. I know it is very tempting and easy to do so. But when you do this you shortchange yourself of a possibly revealing source of info. And this, to someone who seeks for truth like me, is an unacceptable option!

So I decided to buy a book on Indigos, which I am still in the process of reading.
I was slightly suprised to find that the things being said were spot on, and could not be extended to everyone in my age group. Far from it, infact.
Sure, many of the things said can be extended to much of the spiritual community, such as you good folks, but what does that prove? Could mean the authors are just collecting the traits of spiritual people and writing them into a book. Or, it could mean that Indogos are those spiritual people are form much of the populations of these groups. You can argue both ways, but you cant come to any honest conclusions like this.
Anyway, I am still somewhat undecided. But I know that I am who I am and thats enough for me.
Pls keep an open mind folks......

Hey Greenrat:

if you think your special then you'll slowly become crazy and distant from society

EVERYONE is special!!!!!! And dont you forget it!!! lol  


Stoner:

souls that are human for the first time ever, or only a few runs in human (re)incarnation.

A suprisingly accurate statement, from my own perspective.
Yeah, easy to fall into traps, I am just dragging myself out a nasty one at the moment (your name sums up that "trap" quite nicely.....watch out for the green smelly stuff, it does you no good!!! You dont want to fall by the wayside again, do you?).

:wave:

Rob

Well now...

I dont have a huge amount of experience with the old mp3 tracks, I find it is best for me to concentrate the mind on something which the mind is creating/controlling. But anyway, my list of things which are necessary for a good meditation:

- Relaxed body and mind
- Single pointed or, when more experienced, no pointed attention (ie focusing solely on something - I count my breaths - or relaxing the mind completely and focusing on nothing)
- A quite, at best completely silent, internal landscape. Might take a few minutes or hours of practice or many months to be able to reach a completely silent zone. Its when the internal chatter stops, and the mind is no longer being distracted and having its attention/energy focused on other things.
- Trance state

So, its about relaxing, not letting your mental attention by diverted every second or two onto other things, and allowing your consciousness to sit back and expand. As I see it, when this happens the mind starts to reintegrate itself, gathering itself together again. And the lack of distraction means that the higher states of energy/mind-stuff that are always waiting just beyond us, can start to flow into us, healing and rejuvinating.

:grumble:  »  :meditate:  »  :angel:

:wave:

Rob

Ahh I really really didnt want to get drawn into discussions over this. But what the heck.
The thing is, your explanations are at best poorly fitting patches over evidence which consistently points to a more otherworldly explanation. At worst you are making oodles of assumptions, or even getting the facts wrong. Occams razor etc. Simply accepting negs involvement neatly explains everything. Lets see....your points:

You seem to be of a mindset that neg experiences exist, and so this would have coloured your remembrances/recording of these events

Nope - not all the time. The experience when I was much younger, I remembered for years, it was only when I came across RB's neg stuff that I had something which I could pin it to. For ages I didnt know what had happened, and my memories of it haven't changed over the years.

Even without sleep paralysis, dreams or dream images can 'bleed' into reality. This in itself proves nothing.

Maybe, but thats not the only thing that happened, as you know. What adds credibility is the totality of things that happened that night. Also, I have never had dreams "bleed" into reality like this (well, once before I have woken up and seen a strange looking creature sitting above my curtains, but this is debateable whether it was dream substance or seeing into the astral). Added to the other stuff, and your explanation really doesnt fit.
Side note: The majority of "dream bleed" imo is astral sight. Have friends who get this, and the consistency with which it relates to seeing astral denizens is strong. For instance, they wake and see spiders sitting around, even when their dreams are not even slightly spider related. They dont see 8 foot tall clowns with 6 arms eating spaghetti and petting small furry animals, or whatever it is they were just dreaming about (lol).

I can't say why your Dad was having bad dreams.

I can....
And if you cant explain this, which is an integral part of the experience, then......well come on!!!! Btw my dad usually doesnt remember his dreams, and I cant think of another instance when this has occurred. Nightmares are certainly not a common thing for him (ie cant remember him getting them before then or since). And they occurred when a) I wasnt having nightmares myself and b) while I was asleep and c) before and after I had my experience and d) the substance related to neg stuff, neatly removing any possibility that it was my thoughts interfering with him, and adding credibility to the neg hypothesis.

Just to add, if you have complete control of your mind and subconscious, then you are the first person I have met who has.

Complete control, no, but I never said that (red herring alert!). I do however have a very high degree of knowledge about what goes on in my head through extensive long term self observation. This is something I pride myself on. Also, at the time I was open to any possibility. If I wasnt I would not have prayed for it like it was a lost soul.....

Many times our mind seems to fight our desires such as we might not wish to think bad thoughts, but such a wish (or holding of such fears) can produce such thoughts – as there is a focus there (even if an indirect focus).

Trust me, I have extensive knowledge of this. But its not relevant here. There was no such counter current at the time. And yes I was a tad afraid, and the voice may possibly at a stretch have been related to all these things, but its not a strong point on its own I only add it as a part of the overall story.

This sounds exactly like a night terror.

Calling it a "night terror" proves nothing. This is simply the name the scientific community has given to the phenomenon, since they are incapable of considering the other options we are discussing. Also, if you have studied the medical tests on this, the "this area of the brain lights up", or the "lacking x chemical" explanations similarly dont explain anything, they only explore the specifics of whats going on on a physiological level.
IMO most instances of "night terrors" are neg attacks. But thats another topic.

The fact movement broke this state proves it was just sleep paralysis. No Negs here.

Oh come on, it "proves" nothing of the sort!!! Once again, calling it "sleep paralysis" is just a sweeping statement that explains nothing. Why cant moving break a neg induced paralysis? No logic here....

Side note: negs IMO take advantage of natural processes. Sleep paralysis may be a natural process. So just because you wake up paralysed, might not mean its a neg attack granted. Its the combination of stuff that indicates this. The paralysis spread with a very unnatural sense of dread (not something which always happens in instances of sleep paralysis). I have never had bodily paralysis except on this and the other occasion(s) I mentioned, both of which had strong neg indicators. Also, people tend to wake into non-neg-induced sleep paralysis. They dont wake up, hear voices, see something hanging above their bed, and then suddenly get hit by it (paralysis), accompanied by an overwhelming sense of fear.

Could be vibrations induced from focussing on mental images? It doesn't spread slowly; it seems to surge over the body in an instance.
This has happened to me on occasion, usually when I'm quite relaxed and for me at least when I'm lying in bed.

No, I wasnt in a state appropriate to getting vibrations (ie my body was tense, I wasnt in a meditative state like I have to be (for hours) before spontaneous vibrations start, there was no mental vibrations "trigger" going off (dont ask, another completely separate topic!) etc etc). Also I am familiar with the sensation of vibrations, and this was not it. There was no surge involved, it was a sudden and instant feeling all over my body, without any other relating sensations, quite unlike anything I have ever felt before. And why on that image but no others, and then fading away next time? No, it makes no sense.

Experience 6:
Firstly regarding the symptoms when using this technique, you stated it gave you many symptoms you expected to get.

Actually, I specifically did not say this because it would have been completely untrue!!! I read about this technique, but never gave it a proper go, then decided to try it some weeks/months later with gusto. I specifically remember feeling ill and etc, then going over the article to see if this was common, and then being somewhat surprised to find that all the things I were experiencing were common side effects. So sorry! No cheese for you. :rolling:

And induced a sickness by belief? You're kidding me, right?!!!? My brother is a trained doctor. Thats his profession, one which he passed every exam for with flying colours (oodles of distinctions etc etc). I told him about what I was doing after I heard about Dads "food poisoning" (btw, my bro is very sceptical regarding all these things). Even he didnt have the cheek to suggest this!! Although admittedly we were talking more about how my dad was getting the same feelings as I was, but still.
Oh yeah, and there are no other instances of my dad getting an illness synchronous with me getting one. Oh and I wasnt ill when I covered my body in sacred symbols, but he came out with rashes, in the same synchronous fashion. Which rules out the option that I caused it in him. No, there really is no simple explanation for this.

Methinks thats enough! And I really dont want to make any more replies like this, its taken up way too much of my time and energy already. I know you meant it in a good way, but I see what Nay said now, easy to get sucked in.

:wave:

cya

Hey Nay!!!!!!!!!! :dancing:

Are you saying that Robert said that you are having neg problems because of your father's past problems?

Umm sorta - but that makes it sound like my dad is somehow at fault. Its more that negs hijack the close emotional/energetic ties within the family unit for their own purpose, and use them to form attachments to younger family members and continue like that down through the generations. All the Robert really said about this was going more in depth into the present state of things, how this thing connects to me through him, kinda.

I see now that my thoughts and beliefs are no longer welcomed on any forum.... I don't know what is happening but the negative side of things are prevailing.

Ehhh?? And how did you come to that conclusion???!!? I do hope my post didnt make you think that it was in any way an attack on you or anyone!:hug:
I have my own experiences, they are valid and important to this topic, and since I learned so much from them I just hope others can too.

I hope you don't get too embroiled into this neg stuff Rob.. good luck to ya.

heheh thanks. I have given my point of view now, told people where I am coming from, and I dont intend to argue the issue. People can come to their own conclusions. Yeah, its a sticky area to get embroiled in!! Lets of heady emotions and etc.

I am 24. So lets hear your theory then!! And how it relates to the real world experiences I had, would be interesting to hear  

-----------------


Donal!!!
Thanks for your opinions!!
With respect to my experiences though, I am unsure how I could have created them when I was 5, and concerning my Dad, did he create these experiences himself too? The rashes, the seeming illness, the bad dreams, all happening when I was doing my stuff or was seeing this thing? Its a difficult point to argue.....

I'm sorta basing that on quantum physics and it says consciousness creates reality

Let me guess, What the Bleep?  

cyas!!!

I have posted these experience a few times in various places but not for a while and not in one place. Since it has been asked for, there is a lot of discussion on these topics recently, and because only one other person has posted theirs, I am going to tell you about my experiences. U might find it interesting and revealing, I hope so. Sorry if its a bit long. I got a lot to tell  

Experience #1:
About oooh maybe 2-3 years ago now, when in my uni holiday I was at the parents place in the Falklands. I woke up in the wee hours (about 3) and saw a dark black figure standing at the bottom of my bed. At first, being slightly sleepy, I thought it was my dear (very much alive) mother. Sit up in bed and "Mum?" says me. It only took half a second for the reality to hit me. Definitely not mum! Lie back down again. Heart starts pounding. Hhhmmm what do I do now? 5 or so seconds later this thing starts to fade out, leaving only the outline, and then a few seconds later it was gone completely. I could not make out any features, since there was only the slightest variation in its black-ness. It was about 5 1/2 feet tall. I then got up, turned on the light, and - still slightly unsure what it was I had just seen - decided that, if it was a deceased and lost spirit, I should pray for it to find the light. Did this, started receiving some very nasty telepathic communication - "f**k your God", to be precise. Went round in/through my head about 5 or so times. Not the sort of thing my mind thinks of on its own....I might add......anyway this confirmed my suspicion. I think I did a light banishing ritual (LBRP) on the room, blessed some water, threw it liberally around the place, and moved to the spare bedroom to finish my nights slumber.
Further to this experience, before I woke up and saw the neg (I am not going to beat around the bush here....), my Dad was having a baaad nights sleep. Having difficulty getting to sleep, and when he did, its wasn't for long, as he woke up with nasty dreams in his head. After my experience, it got even worst. In one of his dreams I was there, and I was possessed, jabbering away in weird languages. That's the only dream he told me he could remember, but i got the feeling he remembered more but didn't want to give me the skinny on them. He was having such a bad nights sleep he oh so nearly got up and moved to....the spare room....where I was sleeping. Fortunately for both of us he didn't attempt this very dangerous option!!!!


Experience #2:
Age 5, for many nights in a row, I was woken up (although i dont ever remember waking or going to sleep), to see black shadows walking past the foot of my bed. One disappeared in the wall on the right, another appeared from wall on left. Continuous procession of them. I was absolutely TERRIFIED in a way that I simply cannot describe (ooooh!! CLICK CLICK CLICK another coin just dropped into place....realisation....woot for me!!!). You would have to experience this to understand. Its not just a personal fear, as you will see in exp#3 in a second  . Oh and add to this complete bodily paralysis. Not a pleasant experience for a 5 year old to go through, no? And not the sort of thing you would expect a very young, pure, mind to create for itself hhmmmm?? In fact, if you think I created this in my own reality and made it so, you've got issues....


Experience #3:
Second year uni, I wake up and (cant remember this quite so well now, at least the order stuff happened, but this is what I think it was), I was sleeping in after my GF had left a couple of hours before (mmm).....er anyway. So I wake up, still half asleep though, and hear what sounded like someone saying "you know something we dont" (was sleeping over my running water thang....oh yes....). Then I saw, and it wasnt clear, but the best description is something like a green cycling water bottle suspended in the air above my bed, around 2 foot up above my knees. As soon as I concentrate on this a sudden and powerful wave of full bodily paralysis, accompanied by a sensation of absolute terror, swept up over my body starting at the feet. Fortunately I knew what to do, and immediately jerked my body slightly to the side. This tiny movement was enough to break the hold, and that was that, end of attack.


Experience #4:
Experimenting with one of Mr Bruceys PPSD techniques, one night I decided to draw all the sacred symbols over my body. Just to see what would happen. Next day I go to my Grandmas and meet my Dad in the evening. Turns out he woke up that morning with his arms and legs covered in rashes. Never had anything even a little bit like this before. I had washed the symbols off by 11ish, and similarly my lunch time the rashes had mostly disappeared from his body too. Embarrassing for him, since he was interviewing people for a job that morning LOL.


Experience #5:
Using Bruceys Core Image Removal technique, I was searching my mind for subconscious images relating to my attacks when I was young (#2). Found one that was like a learning mask/face. Applied technique. Sudden and instantly felt a weird energy like buzzing over my entire body, except unlike any other energy sensation I have felt this was spontaneous all over, and the feel was different too (usually with energy stuff the feeling takes time to spread with the movement of energy). 10 minutes later I did the same, this time got same result except the buzzing was limited to my upper body. Next time, nothing.


Experience #6:
I cant remember exactly what technique I was applying this time, I think it was the circle/cross over mole for mole removal. It gave me many of the feelings people are often supposed to get, according to article (ie sickness, stomach cramps, and er etc). Which could be argued to be psychosomatic. Except my dear father got exactly the same symptoms, while on holiday thousands of miles away. They thought he had food poisoning....oops!



Analysis:

OK well I am gonna have to refer back to a convo I had with RB on this, he said that the connections from me to the neg appear to go through my father, like lines of force. This fits with my experience. I should add that my dad had similar to #2 experiences when he was younger, too..... which he rationalised away as figments of his own imagination, I guess because he didn't want to consider the alternatives    - understandable, but not a healthy option.
All the neg removal techniques I applied, I had no expectation that they would work, and some of the things that happened were very odd to me, in that I could not have expected or predicted the outcome. The weird energy buzzing, the powerful effects on my father, were all entirely unexpected, and very telling. Further, in #1 where my dad had a reaaally bad nights sleep this started even before my encounter and while I was asleep, this is further strong proof that's its not all in or a creation of my head, and directly relates exp's #4,5,6 to neg activity. Ie the techniques I used caused knock on effects in him, in the same way as the neg effects were hitting him that night I actually saw it.
The taking exp #2 into account, when I was very young, we see that this could not possibly have been the creation of my own mind. I was a balanced and stable child, this is simply not an option. Further, it ticks all the boxes for a neg attack, and was effectively when they were inserting the control mechanisms into me. And the similarity to what I saw in the Falklands is definitely there (dark shadow like figure past the bottom of my bed). Exp #3 with the voice, the vision, and then the sudden wave of paralysis and fear, again, is not something my mind would create. The suddenness, the strength of the attack, and the other weirdnesses immediately put it onto another level than the sort of fear I create with my mind. Also, this and exp #2 are the only times I have ever experienced full bodily paralysis, and both were accompanied by visuals, neg "tags", and overwhelming fear.
Need I go on? I could, but that's enough, this post is long already.

What all this paints is a very convincing and varied picture of neg activity, from when I was very young, to relatively recently, and including and directly relating to my fathers experiences. From my own perspective, it is impossible for me to think of any other possible explanation than the fact the negative entities are real, nasty, and can have definite objective effects upon us.

From you, the readers, perspective, you are left with 3 options:
1- I am telling the truth, negs are real and exist beyond creations of the subconscious.
2- I am lying (I am not, btw, and I hope my long term participation in this forum and the one before it, not to mention mod status, speaks for itself)
3- That my experiences were somehow the creation of my own mind. Good luck on that one!!! Feel free to try though, I could do with a good chuckle

And if you got this far, respect!! Hope you found it worth your time.

Rob

There's not need to become paranoid because of this, yeesh.

yup!! Sorry if I came across rude/paranoid/up tight/knocking yours or anything. Respect you opinion and all that. Thanks for the reply!!

Oh yeah I remember them articles you mention. I thought they were quite good too, and romeros comments were usually fair. Perhaps I have been listening to the wrong people. Meh, whatever, I aint gonna have anything to do with them so I guess it doesnt matter.

Now, I am going to edit out personal stuff from my last post. lol shouldnt give other people opinions away so easily like that !

Rob

Jonathon,

Apologies I missed your earlier posts. To answer your questions:

Nita has very open-minded way of thinking about spiritual development. This caused a rift between her and the fraternity and she decided to go her own way to teach as she pleases. Robert hinted at this in a chat session in the Astral Society chat room.

I have spoken with people about this in the past. No, Romero did not simply disagree with her, he really did treat her badly. In fact, all my sources have given very negative impressions of Romero - honestly, I am basing my opinions on people who know the group of are one removed from people who know the group, so this is not just speculation on my part.

Inguma, I recall that Romero had an argument in the old Astral Research Forum (the first RB forum), was it with you?

I remember as well. I dont think I got particularly involved in that, but if I did it was to support RdC and RB, since I strongly admired them both, at the time.

Wisely, Nita and Romero have chosen not to post anything here so as avoid turning this into a vulgar show. It's one thing for us to give our opinions but it's quite another for them to do it.

Well....Romero doesnt post here anyway (maybe once I have seen him around, ages ago) and Nita left to follow RB when the rift occured between Bruce and this forum. More circumstantial than wise I think.

Lastly, Romero was not the founder of FH he was an advanced member who was appointed to head the external face of the fraternity. There are more advanced members, higher in rank than Romero, who are actively promoting Bardon's Work (which are an integral part of FH teachings I believe) and have chosen to remain silent about their involvement with the fraternity.

Interesting, where did you get this info from? I have not gotten this impression in the past, quite the opposite. You are, I assume, referring to physical people rather than astral beings?

So I gotta ask, are you a member of FH? I was thinking of attending their thang in Portugal before I found out all the above (and I nearly sent a friend with heavy depression to get "healed" by Romero....yikes!!!   ), did you have a chance to get there?

all the best

Rob

Intergalactic you make some OK arguments but the majority are just weak. However right now I dont have the energy to argue them apart so I will simply reiterate your own accusation from earlier that people here only believe in what they want to believe, yet it is now quite obvious you have no experience in this field. So you are shooting yourself in the foot. Also, you say you find it suspicious that people wont take you up on your wanting to prove this stuff is real, but why should we bother, especially when you dont? I dont find it suspicious that you are unwilling to try testing simple stuff like EVP yourself, as this is the lazy route 99% of pseudo-"skeptics" use when they are comfortable in their own beliefs and dont want to change.
But if you really want to live up to your words, DO IT YOURSELF, like the rest of us here. Do the work yourself, test it yourself, or check your soapbox, assumptions, and accusations at the door.

ps person I mentioned is a trained remote viewer. Now that you mention it, I have heard of such people making large amounts of £££ in casinos. The reason she charges to is filter out people who are not serious, ie it keeps the time wasters away. Otherise she gets more requests than she can fullfill, most of which come from the idle and the curious, but only a few from honest and open minded seekers.

pps there are even simple psychic tests you could do on yourself, which when done en-masse will show tedencies to not hit the random average. Simple tests like this have been done extensively by Rupert Sheldrake, former head of biology at cambridge university. Google him. Good guy, got many good positive results. Even did telepathy tests infront of and using an entire year of cambridge biology undergraduates. And yet the world is still here eh, same as ever? btw.........people who step beyond the norm like this tend to be harshly punished, not rewarded. To think otherwise is to simply not know your history and to be very naive.

We can clear this up right now  How about I ask you 10 questions and you give me the answer. If you get them right I'm a believer. In fact I'll challenge any psychic to answer 10 questions correctly I'll bet not one could do it.

No. I am 24. I am young, inexperienced, and still not confident or developed enough to answer your questions. I know people who could but, given the "prove it" attitude, I suspect most would not be interested. I can think of one who would, and would proably blow your mind, but she charges. Sorry!!!
The thing about the spiritual, is that its primarily not a scientitific discipline. Its a spiritual thing. Its above the idea of "proof", that is, its something which is inherently personal, and orientated towards spiritual enlightenment, not scientitific proof. I have seen some *AMAZING*things, but none were given purely as a low scientific proof. Thats the bounds of sceptics, people who cant get beyond their doubt, and as such can never honestly investigate any subject touching on metaphysics. If they could, they would find a lot of amazing stuff, and would no longer be skeptics, and their minds would open up,  and then they would start experiencing amazing stuff for themselves.....ultimately, its your choice, not anybody elses. Sorry if this seems like a "get out" clause, but its true, and IMO a big reason why the scientific and spiritual can have such difficulty with eachother.

I have done some experimenting with EVP on a computer and it would seem to be valid.
Intergalactic your objections:
1. "I  think of you looked hard enough and recorded long enough that you would get noises that sound like someone is saying a word or words"
In which case the noises being mistakenly interpreted as words would be random and have little bearing to the questions being asked to the spirits. This is not accurate, even my own limited testing has determined this.

2 "If you were a ghost why would you waste your time whispering something why not just jump in front of a camera"
They do. Generally, spirit activity appears to be seen as orbs, which usually are only detected on digital cameras (still and movie), often with very impressive results. But if you were a ghost, why would you not want to exploit any and every means of communication to the physical?

3. why don't you just say hey I'm so and so and died at what ever date by what ever way
I think there have been cases such as you example. There have even been recodings of EVP from murdered individuals identifying their killer, the motive, and the location of their body, before the police had figured any of these things out. I wonder, how much research have you done on the subject to deny that this is the case? Or are you relying on belief and its associated assumptions?

4. If you had real psychic powers and wanted to help people wouldn't you win the lottery just so you would have plenty of money and wouldn't have to charge people for your services?
I have personally predicted random future event with a combined probability of over 1:500,000 - not quite the lottery, but close. Once I did what you said, dowsed out lottery tickets, but then I divined what the outcome would be should I be successful in winning, and it didnt look a pretty picture. I never bought the ticket. I think you are missing something rather major here...it is something of a catch 22 situation....
I should add that if someone was successful in winning using divination, do you REALLY think they would admit it? A minor point, but IMO unlikely. And if they did, it would prove nothing to the sceptics. How many other people are dowsing the numbers? They would say it was only a matter of time before some crackpot won it. And again, are you sure this has never occured? Or is this another assumption?

5. people believe in them because they want to not because there is any evidence for it.
Reasons for people believing what they do aside (remember, both scientific and spiritual circles suffer from exactly the same problem here), your implication that there is no evidence for psychic phenomenon is a gross inaccuracy. There are mountains of evidence supporting parapsychological claims. Ironically then, I would guess that the reason you have not found this data is because you have never properly applied yourself to finding it. The reason for this? Because your beliefs are based on what you want to believe, not on what the evidence actually shows maybe?...... ....lol

I would suggest that the best way to test anything like this, is not to sit around all day wondering why it cannot be true, but to actually get out there and test it for yourself.


I would like to relate to you a little story I read in the newspaper a few weeks ago. Its about the guy who is running against belusconi I think his name is, the current premier of Italy. This guy is the main competitor, and belusconi dug up this tory to try and discredit him.
About 30 years ago I think it was, the then prime minister was kidnapped, I cant remember the reasons for this. Nobody could find him, but his kidnappers were making ransom demands, saying they would kill him in a month if these demands were not met. The person this story relates to, was at the time a minister working underneath the then PM, and was naturally concerned by the situation. He decided to take the crazy and desperate measure of doing a quija board with some scientists in the hope it may tell them where this guy was being held. The responce was, if I remember correctly, a name they did not recognise, followed by the name of the city this PM was kidnapped from. But they didnt recognise the first. Eventually they pinned the name down to a small town in Italy, tipped the police, who swarmed the place entirely but found nothing. Eventually the PM was found dead in a car boot I think. His location? The unidentified name, thought to be the name of the small town, was in fact the street name he was being held in, a street in the city as named by the board. Whats interesting about this, is that in the newspaper which was relating this story, the reporter was utterly incapable of even considering the fact that the info was provided by a quija board. The "obvious" conclusion the author came to was that the politician had a source, and called the claim that the info had come from a ouija board a "silly lie" to protect this source and himself from the ramifaction of having such a source. One of the lamest excuses I have ever heard, which simply pushes the possibility of psychic phenomenon straight out the window, into the nearest bin, never to be considered ever again.

As is life.  

Yeah I like many aspect of chaos magick except for the fact that its author (carroll think his name is) doesnt entirely practice what he preaches. Chaos magick should be pure "what works.." stuff, using your beliefs and everything else only to achieve certain goals, and rejecting any sort of secular type thought. As such it draws on any and all practices it sees as effective, and has a few which are used to a greater extent that other practices (sigilisation of desire and the simplified concept of magical consciousness or "gnosis" being quite major).
Alas I see the same religion and spirituality bashing attitude and self percieved superiority which it claims to be beyond riddled throughout. Popular with teens and people in general angst..... Still, perhaps a minor complaint. Read the dual book "liber null - psychonaut", it is still very good. The next one in the line is OK (there are 3 books I know of hes written), but the one after that is total bilge, and shows his real attitudes which hide behind the "we have no beliefs" facade.

So..... cautiously recommended. The ideas and concept are sound, just keep a wary eye open at all times.

Goetia, summoning, and suchlike is not a major part of chaos magic, certainly not a critical part, and as always, one which should in general be avoided by all but extremely competant practitioners IMO.

RobertotototototoooooOOOooooo....... hearts7