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Whether time exists as we think of it (linearly) or not - I have had at least one very convincing precognitive dream - Happened the night before the actual events. So I tend to think that, however time exists, we can perceive it linearly,  instinctively.

That being said, I was intrigued by the claim on this article. I had a projection on Tuesday Morning of last week. Decided to try the approach that the gal talked about.

I found myself out, (actually, I recall the exit - I pulled out from my head which is unusual). I floated around my bedroom, and demanded to know the day's lottery numbers.

I saw the number "96" coming towards me. I scrutinized it, and deceded that it was actually "86."

I demanded to know the next number. Nothing. I said "Clearer!" For the first time ever, that command seemed to work for me. The 'nothing' snapped into the number "0."

Then I demanded to know the third number. Nothing. I was losing control at this point. So I re-entered, saitisfied that I had some data to work with.

I bought my first lotto ticket ever. The daily three. "86" isn't a legitimate number, so I picked "8" and "6" and "0" as my numbers.

These numbers ended up being wrong. The draw that day was 7-8-7.

For what it's worth.

Patty

White noise is supposed to be helpful because it can cut out background distractions. I don't know if it would stop the songs in your head or not, but it sure seems worth a try.

I have found that when a song is stuck in my head, it is because I am having trouble 'finishing' it in my head. I get stuck in a loop in the song - and if I can consciously jump tot he end of the song, sometimes that helps my head-radio to turn off.

Patty

I think that is interesting. I haven't tried various types of breathing like you. I am reminded of buddhist practices that breathing is what sets the body in one state or another.

I have noticed that there is a shift in my breathing when I hit a good F10 state. The breath is more down the back of my throat, it is fuller, and it is a little raspy.  but beyond being a marker for me as to when I really am in F10, I haven't played with breathing. I am curious what others have to say.

Patty

What have you tried to make the pressure go away? you can probably modulate it into different things if you hit on the right approach. Frank uses his energy hands to 'massage' specific points in his head, you could try that.  Or try various imagery around it, like imagine a drain for the pressure to go down, or a tunnel might be an interesting choice for the pressure to go through ---

It sounds like you are looking for a certain type of OBE and are dissatisfied with whatever has happened so far. My best advice is to look for what is positive with your experiences to date, maybe journal them in a summary of what you have learned. Then spend time thinking about what might be causing a roadblock.

I often find that I make incremental progress if I spend time really trying to remove my ego, my expectations, my desires from the experience. The more I am able to put the experinec in the hands of a good and higher power, with trust, the more moving the experience is. Of course some believe this will be a bad idea, so just consider it a suggestion.

Good luck,

Patty

p.s. I haven't reached my goal of what I look for in OBE either - though I am thrilled with the limited progress that I see.  So others advice may be much better!

Patty

My gut response was a resounding 'No!'  After reading the thread, I am less sure, but still leaning towards no.

1. I am not convinced that 'good' comes out of it - i.e. in any measurable way I am not more loving or patient as a result of my projections. My thoughts on what I "am" have changed as a result, and my self identity, but I do not believe I lead a better life now than I did before.

The Bible passage of Jesus talking to Thomas comes to mind:

"You believe because you have seen. Blessed is he who has not seen and still believes."

2. The post about the deep south, how OBEs are occult or devil work - Really, we are all so very diverse. the best testament to a greater understanding  of your spiritual nautre, in my opinion, is to live by the values you learn. Love others, if that is how you have grown. this does not necessitate telling them about OBE's. It means only love them! Help them, cherish them, be available, that sort of thing.

After all, the most spiritual and transformative people I have known have NEVER said that their practices were what made them what they are. Moreover, what makes them so inspirational is the universal goodness that radiates from them - not that they are some belief or other, or practice this or that. Many paths to the mountaintop sort of thing.

3. There are definitely ways to share. Over time you meet like-minded folk and can share in that way. Putting out feelers, that sort of thing. Flying dreams are universal, and mentioning that you had a flying dream might get a funny look, but it might not - and it is an acceptable thing to mention when testing the waters for interest.

My opinion, worth less than 2c, is that we don't need to 'spread' the news. It makes my husband physically ill to talk about it - indicating a real resistance to the idea. Probably many have that reaction. Talk about it with people that are already thinking along those lines - and hey, then it's a two way street and you can benefit from their experience, too.

Patty

In the middle of November I had this dream - It felt very much like an astral 'place' and definitely wind - (So, since you ask!) -

quote:
Last night I had an interesting dream. In the dream there was a terrible hurricane outside. Very scary. Very tangible, through multiple senses. I could feel the drafts through the windows, hear the hurricane, and things in the attic being blown about, crashing into walls. Thumping, rattling, shaking, and so on. I had some degree of groggy awareness that I was dreaming, but not lucid.

I had several false awakenings through this hurricane in which I got up to bolster the house - lock the windows, check the kids, that sort of thing. Mike was "awake" doing similar things during these false awakenings.

After about three of these (every time I questioned whether I was really awake this time or not and I kept feeling like yes, this time really I am awake) I finally thought I was getting nowhere, and I had the thought that I would try to see the hurricane differently . I chose (although I wasn't lucid per se) to imagine the hurricane as the breath of god. (hee, very poetic.) What was interesting was the house (and everything but me and the wind) dropped away, and then it was just me with this gale force wind blowing through me. I had controlled my fear of the hurricane by re-imaging the winds as the breath of God (in my mind a 'good' thing as opposed to a 'bad' thing) and I felt like I was rushing into the wind as it blew through me. I had the idea that I was rushing towards the source of the wind, which naturally would be the mouth of God, I suppose. So then I became terribly afraid of coming face to face with the creator (if such exists) and finally dragged myself awake.

I have ahd a few other very tactile 'wind' experiences, but this one was the most memorable to date.

Patty

Or for that matter, do your meditation with headphones and a binaural beat tape. That should dominate the music.

Like the Monroe series tapes. Pricey though.

Patty

Hi Elastica,

I had a similar thing two days back.

here it is from another posting elsewhere:

quote:
I  had a brief sort-of OBE this morning. One of the types that seems logical at the time and only later I realize things don't jive. it started with me separating my arms, feeling two sets of arms, feeling both sets as real as can be. Then I separated my legs from my legs, and they also felt real - both sets. I tried doing some funky bendy stuff with the astral legs, that was interesting, they bent however I tried to bend them.  I had the presence of mind to wake myself up a little more (get more into the C1 level of consciousness per Monroe) and saw that my physical body was still in the same position I had fallen asleep in.

Then I left the bedroom through a transom in the doorway (in the experience I thought "Oh yeah, there is a transom here" and upon awakening later I realized that there isn't) and went to the living room. I checked my clothing - long sleeved pink shirt  which I don't own - and upon awakening I realized that was wrong too as I was wearing only undies. Met my family of origin in the living room and had a giggle fit about how we were all there without our bodies - it seemed really funny at the time - and upon awakening realized that of course they aren't in the house with us. then went back and "re-entered" consciously and awoke.

AS always, it was most satisfying, to feel free for a little while and to feel the promise of another level of being. But also frustrating, as I have expressed repeatedly, at how I don't know what to make of it. Experientially it was great.

I wonder why, when I was so in need of these things in '97, why they were so much more concrete and intense and believable and now they feel more abstract or dreamlike. I also wonder why I seem to have these experiences only under certain circumstances - like when I am asleep but well rested.

It hasn't been five years for me, maybe a few months.  My visaion wasn't as clear as yours. But they were both morning experiences - and we both want more!

Later -

patty

Patty

Well it certainly wouldn't be any fun to have that sort of unwanted attention.

For what it's worth I feel a little defensive lately myself. Has the mood changed around here?  I am hoping it is a short-lived blip; there are so many wonderful contributors here.

(((Meg)))

Patty

Hi Qui-Gon Jinn,

(We just saw "The Phantom Menace" two nights back. Love Star Wars.)

Can you elaborate? I'd love to hear some.... examples? from your life, times that acceptance  have affected you in some tangible and specific way, and what insights that has given you as to what 'self' is.

I often enjoy something distilled down to a guideline like "acceptance" but also sometimes a framework of examples, or the concept in action, gives me a better grip on the idea.  I'd love it if you could elaborate on your thoughts here.

Frank, thanks for the edit. Last night I didn't know quite what to make of the briefer response. I like the water fountain analogy and hope to get back with thoughts about it after I have mulled it over; of course there is no necessity to have an ongoing conversation unless you wish to as well.

And to both of you, I have been reading and surfing, looking for essays and that sort of thing on the concept of self, from different viewpoints (ex, last night I looked for such from a buddhist viewpoint; a quote I came across was something like:

quote:....an attitude towards life refined through ongoing mindful awareness. It may lead us to the realization that ultimately there is neither something nor nothing at the core of ourselves that we can put a finger on.

-"Buddhism without beliefs," Stephen Batchelor

The book goes on to describe such questions as "who am I?" (or "what am I?") as serving a powerful purpose in the form of a mystery. That is, the answer may be unrealizable, but the mystery can serve an important purpose.

I enjoy the mystery, the search for clues, and hope for more input on this thread!

(and in the interest of maintaining this on topic, it occurs to me that while out-of-body, a state that I occasionally enjoy but do not conclude much from in terms of continuation of consciousness, I find that my not-well-defined sense of 'who I am' is the same as while physical. Thus, if we are truly separate from our bodies, it may be that those things that we associate with the physical condition are actually a part of something more lasting. Example: While out-of-body, I still consider myself to have children, I still have the same interests, and the same sorts of things perturb me. This is in contrast to the non-OBE meditative state in which I feel I reach a place of detached calm, where normal daily concerns don't seem to affect me the same way.)

Patty

Hi Elway,

I am sure you'll get some good feedback.

I have the same experiences. I don't know what they represent, but have learned how to use them to my advantage.

For example the 'jump' that I get - If I am trying to hold trance and fall aseleep, I often get that 'jump.' It made me curious - but doesn't anymore, at present I simply use it to reestablish alertness.

My personal theory as to why dreams and such are more vivid when trying to project, is that the brain state is a little different. You are trying to take an alert frame of mind into sleep, in a sense, and so it stands to reason that your brain waves might have more 'wake-like' patterns, hence you remember more.

I find that if I try too many nights in a row, I start to really drag during the day. I think this is due to not getting the deep deep dreamless sleep that we seem to need.  Hopefully this will be less of a problem in the future when I can sleep as late as I like.

Patty

It makes one's heart ache, to think of going to the indescribable beauty and light.

James, I see life as teaching me on the inside. I see growth on the inside. My sense of self, or awareness of the intangible aspect of self, grows.

I don't know if we have a preset lifespan. I kinda hope so, as that would make me feel less guilty about 'leaving' my family at the end, and so on. I do feel, from experience of the last seven years, that life is such a precious opportunity to grow in so many wonderful and beautiful, indescribable ways. Like our conscious awareness grows, our souls become bigger, stronger, more beautiful. What a trip!

(I have heard accounts where people were given the option to stay in the light or returnto earth, and chose to return. So maybe there is some wiggle room.)

Patty

I had an interesting experience on the skeptic's board

http://unfacts.org/cgi-bin/index.pl

the other day, wherein I was discussing the basis of belief with a fellow thinker who is more skeptical than myself of paranormal. (I am more skeptical than the average participant on the Astral Pulse forum, but less skeptical than the average "internet skeptic." )

At any rate, I had a moment of epiphany. Now, I have known for some time that a person can't be convinced of something they don't want to hear, but my epiphany went beyond that. I had a split second image of the perfection of having all these disparate points of view in community. The skeptic with whom I was conversing, was perfect in his stance, as was I in mine, and everyone else in theirs.

It was a very cool split second.

Rolling bear, I absolutely love your post. (Oh! And I just recognized you! HI!!!) This is not to say that I don't appreciate Frank's point of view, I do absolutely. But my path has led me to the same current understanding that you express. I could not have articulated it, though. Thank you.

Frank, thank you for your posts as well. They always make me think, and I always appreciate the time and effort that you put into them.

Separately, regarding suicide. I was suicidal, and I understand the mental state that leads one to taking their lives. Only two things out of the entire world kept me from attempting suicide - my mother and my husband - but it was a very long night of the soul to say the least.

I have a friend who committed suicide. To the extent that I may have had contact with him, it would seem - based on my limited experience with him - that he indeed regretted his choice, is doing fine, and spent longer 'hanging around' the physical plane than those people in my life who have passed to other means.  In fact I began to pay attention after his death - to the ADCs and so on that were reported from a suicide victim vs other victims. Informally it seems that suicides are more 'present' after they die, there are more convincing ADCs and so on - than other folks. You might want to see if you find the same as circumstances permit (ie as you hear of an ADC from this or that, etc.)

It is easy to come up with reasons why this may be the case - for instance suicides may have unfinished business that keeps them trying to fulfill obligations here or something. Of coures we may never really have a solid answer, until we have passed ourselves.

Love,

Patty

(Maybe instead of stonehenge we should all try to connect with a suicide friend and see what insights we can pull together as a group.)


Patty

Nice post, Tisha! I am supposed to be cleaning house right now for visitors ---- But it seems that I find myself sitting in front of the computer ---

Just ten more miunutes.... Really....

Patty

I don't know much about other entities on the astral plane. I usually don't perceive them, and when I do they are distant emotionally.

But your post reminds me of some of monroe's experiences --- where over time he realized that the entities he saw on the astral levels were an aspect of self, or an aspect of his children (there are probably other variations.)  Is it possible that there is more to this entity than the initial thought that it is a separate being wanting to get it on? Maybe it represents something in your subconscious or something ---- Something that is trying to get your attention.

??

Like I said, I have zero experience with other entities, though in my dreaming state I am sometimes surprised what things can represent -

Love,

Patty

p.s. I recall that on another forum we are discussing male/female, logos/eros, masculine principles and feminine principles. I don't know much about jungian psychology but maybe this is a part of your psyche that represents something masculine. What the hell, here's a free unsolicited analysis - Maybe if this guy represents the masculine principle, which can  be associated with order, organisation, rational thought, that sort of thing - maybe seeing him upon your return from an astral excursion (and seeing him in a state where he wants to couple with you) indicates that your higher self (or greater being or oversoul or something) is asking you to bring more of the masculine principle with you into the experience. Not that he is a real suitor, but that your subconscious is saying that your experiences are too unbalanced towards the feminine principles of creating, sensing, etc without the balance provided by the masculine principle.

This is probably most unuseful.

NO dreams about stonehenge for me last night. Sorry.

THere's nothing wrong with Stonehenge or any other landmark. No one landmark is better or worse than another. But I think that it is not that you actually go to the physical location ----- maybe people end up at an astral version of the place or soemthing, and details vary from person to person and from one time to the next.

Patty

Mr. Bruce writes of this in AD. Most people who "succeed" in going to a meeting place report incorrect details. THis doesn't mean that they failed, but that it might not be as straightforward as you imagine.....

I haven't projected in a while, but I'll try to dream about stonehenge tonite for kicks.

Patty

Also, there is a lot of room for individual experience. The Buhlman commands ("astral sight NOW!") don't work for me. ROPE creates an instant tugging in my midsection, even if I am not in trance. Just laying down and doing rope will get a strong tug on my midsection. But it has never gotten me out yet.

What works for me is to be on the edge of asleep/awake, for a long time (several hours is good.) This means skittering back and forth from awake to asleep, etc, for a long time. This also means I have to be intent. Really intent. Really really intent.  Most nights the sleep seduces me, it's pretty yummy after all.

Anyway, what works for me after some hours of this awake asleep, is to just try to get up and walk away. THis will either wake me up physically (calling for more time in this zone) or or it will work and I'll walk away.

Good luck, keep at it, and allow yourself to have experiences that aren't quite by the book.

Patty

Hi Ninth Planet,

In my experience, altered conscious states are quite distinct from dreams (though technically dreaming is a state of altered consciousness.)

I never wake from a dream and say "Was that really an OBE?"  Maybe some of them were, but I just keep them in the dream category because it seems like quite a slippery slope to start allowing *anything* to prove survival of death.

Rather, there is a discrete type of consciousness distinct from dreams, in which I feel fully conscious, separate from my body, and aware of what's going on.  I call these OBE's or AP's.  I have the most aware versions between awake and asleep, in a very relaxed state but not all the way gone.

I can't do it at will. I doubt anyone can in the sense that you mean. I have little doubt that many people may achieve an altered state of consciousness at will, but when Michael talks of the randi challenge, I think we are comparing apples and oranges. In my experience, AP's are subject to distortions from the physical world.  So I may some day believe that I can project anytime, anywhere, at will - and still not meet Randi's criteria - because the experience is so tenous and hard to understand in the first place. We ARE talking about spirits here, after all. I mean, we don't even fully understand the physical underpinnings of our own world - how can we hope to predict what might be gleaned from an AP? About the government RV program - it was abandoned. Apparently they had "phenomenal hits, and phenomenal misses."

This is completely separate from the question of whether it is worthwhile or not. Of courfse it is. It just isn't, in my experience, what you might expect.

Does that answer your question?

Patty

Losing one's child is truly one of life's greatest challenges. We lost our first child in 1995; she lived only 11 days.

Her death has shaped my life more than any other event. I could list the fruit of this experience, in the end all the fruits are a result of the greater compassion that such an experience brings. The fruits continue to this day.

One of the most astonishing things I have learned through losing my daughter, is that my relationship with her continues even in her absence.  Our bereavement has been such a challenging road, thankfully there are insights along the way. My love and compassion to the parents of Maoli Chan. You are not alone, and you are loved.

Patty

Some believe that we project several times every night. If true, then most projections I do not remember at all.

The projections that I try to initiate consciously, I probably remember easily half to 75% of the experience. Possibly more.

my concerns lie more in the realm of degree of conscious awareness, which can lead to problems like the ones Lysear mentions.

Patty

Hi Greg!

Yeah, it was almost as much fun hearing him tell me this, as it is to actually have a conscious projection! I've been grinning every time I think about it.

His response? He was grinning - I don't know if he thought he was having a weird brain glitch or what - he wasn't freaked, well he maybe was a little freaked when I told him that I had been thinking about getting out of bed for a few minutes before I actually arose. I think he thought he was having a precognitive flash -- Another possibility, but one that would say that I had nothing to do with the whole thing. Certainly possible. Of course, the idea that we were both involved in some way, that we were able to ... communicate? .... on another level - in a manner of speaking ..... is more thought provoking.  

What really might be going on? Fascinating possibilities.

Patty

Guess what!

Dear hubby saw MY astral body last night. Hah! No, I don't remember it ---- but there was some validation ----

Here's what he saw:

He was lying in bed, he thought he was awake. He saw me get out of bed. Three minutes later he saw me get out of bed AGAIN. This was enough for him to say "Hunh?" and he realized that only the second time had I taken my body along ----

Here's what I remember:

Lying in bed, thinking I need to take some medicine. SHould I take the medicine, should I just go to sleep. Mentally back and forth, for several minutes. Eventually I got up to take the medicine.

It seems to me that the fact that I had WANTED to get up out of bed, but that my body was so nice and comfy,  - maybe either my hubby picked up on my thoughts and imaged me getting up, or maybe 'part' of me got up, and later the 'rest' followed. the whole multidimensional thing. It's validating to me that I had wanted to get up for several minutes, and he saw me get up several minutes before I actually did.

I wish I remembered the astral part, I guess I thought my awareness would be high enough to know if I was projecting! Apparently not! Hee hee. Fun stuff.

Patty

When I was a kid I thought it sounded cool but I thought only the monks in the himalayas could do it. So I never really thought about it.

After some profound grief in my late 20's I started having 'symptoms' that I learned might be pre-exit sensations. I freaked and made it go away.

A couple years after that I was feeling a little braver. I decided to try to project. I have had satisfactory success, though I haven't made it to the boy's locker room yet.

Patty

I have used the first set (Wave I?) and been pleased with the intro to focus ten/free flow ten.

I am able to reach mind awake/body asleep on my own, but the state is more complete when I am using the tapes.  Also easier to reach. I think the resonant tuning is good - and I never have had the discipline to do that on my own, so having the guidance on the tape is a good reminder to resonant tune.

I don't use the tapes frequently. Often I can tell if I could achieve a trance or not before making the effort, and if I am too tired, or have too many things to do and my mind is very active -- those times I opt not to try for trance.

Several months ago when using tape two (track 2) of Wave I, I was able to maintain the mindset of focus ten for several hours. I had a reasonable projection and false awakening that evening, as well. The projection did not happen while I was listening to the tape, and it still required effort. But I think the tapes were most helpful in achieving a steady 'beingness' in F10.

I am often surprised that I seem to 'click out' during the tape exercise. I often won't consciously hear the cues that RAM gives regarding health and memory, and so on. Maybe I am asleep. However, I always return to consciousness during the countdown back to C1. Weird, I blink out and the next thing I know Monroe is saying "3, 2, 1. return to full waking consciousness."

Patty