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I hope nobody will be offended on my take on this extreme story.

This article is interesting because it contains so much symbolism. The name Severson (Sever, severe) might have had a meaning to the young passenger. And the trip to a graveyard? Could this have triggered something in the young man? This incident played out as a real life nightmare. The pastor "drove" the young man to the graveyard. In dreams(sometimes surfaces in waking life if brought to the conscious), the driver is seen as the one in control. Circumstances like this may fall in place just right as to produce this violence? It sounded premeditated (co-creation of victim/perpetrator scenerio). It probably didn't help by the pastor saying the young man needs to repent (either before or during the attack, the article wasn't clear on this). This would seem to me as part of the cause for the attacker to think the other man must die. Both obviously saw the other as the enemy. It sounds like the pastor learned a lot of the incident. It doesn't strike me as demonization, but a combination of factors leading to a horrific scene. A knife in symbology  means separation. The pastor had to separate to save his life. The young attacker wanted to separate the other man's head from his body. The pastor recognized his pea size heart afterward (and more reflections). People are not perfect. Violence needs to be understood, maybe someday it can be prevented, and someday end.

Wow Moontingle,Artic Circle!! Have a good time on your journey.I will look forward to finding out what you learn up there. I didn't know there are people living there? How? [:0]

Interesting article Robin, thanks for sharing it.

wisp

I have to agree with about everything mentioned in this thread. I was only referencing books because many people like documented proof of things. I too think anything is possible, and just because it's not in a book, or said differently in a book, doesn't make something "so" or "not so", that's all.

I'm sure there are some marvelous experiences of shape shifting into the physical! I also believe in bilocating, but that's another topic.[]

I just want to throw some emotion in on this topic. Several years ago I met a young fellow who was gay. We spent long periods of time talking with each other. It was a mystical experience for me. I was mystified by his soft speak and understandings of so many things. The strange part about this,there was not one thing we didn't see eye to eye about. Now, I know it's easy to talk with someone who sees and thinks the same as you do, but this experience seemed to go beyond the details of topics.
It was as if we connected on another level, I think it was a spiritual level. I found out a few years later he had died of AIDS.
I will never forget him. He touched me in a way no one had ever did.

According to author, Robert Moss, in his book, "Conscious Dreaming", he states in a case involving a magician during a seance, the magician went so far as to take control of the spirit helper (if I understood correctly).The book states, "During a seance, it's alleged, a tiger appears at least once, though experts debate whether it is the real animal or only a were-tiger."

More in the book, it states Shamans shape-shift into their power animal, and also send (project) duplicants to other locations for a purpose.

The author in Animal-Speak also talked of shape-shifting, but was non specific of the potential for physical change to occur.

Each book made reference to shape-shifting as a magic practice.

Then there is the possibilty of taking possession of a real animal I would imagine. The nearest possibility I can see (IMO), is the synchronistic appearance of an animal. Synchrony works this way, yet many would be skeptical of this before any other method for some reason.

Moon,
I was reading in this book that the treatment for good health is what brought about the dream-catcher (based on the spider's web). The dream-catcher is designed to honor the spider which brought this healing method.

Here is a link to what I received in my email.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/995357.asp

Here is an example to me of an enity or body with too much money, too much influence, and too much time on hands.

Is this really proper for a person's personal interests be honored in this way. Whether or not this "serves" the tourist business or not(wrong IMO), should someone deceased be exploited for tourist's dollars?
Is this good use of government or court's time and expense, not to mention the taxpayers interests?

Here is my quote from an earlier post:

quote:Another observation I've seen are that the wrong people are oftentime in the wrong positions for change to occur. This however is a catch 22, if the right things get changed, the right people are in right place.

See how far off base things are! Who is running the assylum?

Some interesting thoughts and questions Moon. Too bad I have to run off to work now. Here are some quick ideas I've come up with.I'll think more on it and get back with you.

Yes, your probably right, the example I gave may not be shapeshifting in the sense it's intented, but instead, animal help.

It could be the young boy is receptive and the added higher vibrations of sound (the radio) intensified something. There are many thoughts about spiders. I don't like touching them, but I like spiders more than most. I allow them to co-exist with me. I try never to kill a spider. Anyway the spider has it's own history. The spider web does too. The web is associated with several things. One of these are geometric patterns. It could be the boy receives information or a sensation from the geometric pattern of the web. Geometric patterns are related to paths of altered states of consciousness. He is probably vulnerable and unprepared for what the altered states presents, and with the possible higher vibrational levels triggered by the radio, it could be too much. Just my thought on it. And too, the strumming of a guitar suggests "hands on", and this is may be the approaching of manifestation. At least, how I would imagine it.
The lightening is the use of electric energy some way. This involves the element air. The flash may serve as a trigger in the same as the radio or higher vibrational levels perhaps. My mother once claimed she was struck by lightening once and it was followed with what she described as an obe. That day, I have to say, the conditions were right for a lightening strike. She didn't have any apparent signs of ill-effect from the experience. She does have a past of migraines, and bright lights are her trigger for these, so who knows? Maybe there is a connection some way. For some reason I'm referring to this great book a lot today, "Animal-Speak" by Ted Andrews. This book has helped my understanding of animals a lot. It also made mention that the air (connected with lightening), is associated with the mind. I think instinctual qualities can come from any parts of the body. It's kind of interesting that this author made a distinction about "mind", when talking about the air element. Anyway, for what it's worth.

I go to a website where the main guy there has talked of his past with sweatlodges, and other things along the lines you have spoken of. Let me know, I can send you the link.

Different healing methods interest me. So far I haven't been able to directly utilize healing methods. However I'm big on preventive measures through thought techniques. The most healing I've experienced were through who I know now as "spirit guides". There is probably a connection to this and Shaman medicine. I'm finding that many things are connected when you can find the common thread (strand(s) from the spiderweb, to the matrix of materialization/fabrication).[]

I see it like Nagual has said. Well said Nagual.

My experience with this goes along perception lines.Placing rituals aside, a person has it within his/herself to make use of instinctual nature. Since the instinctual nature of the human is more difficult to define, an animal will do. For instance, the cat, the lion, or any other feline can be used as a visionary tool to access a searching out of something for the person involved. For me I visualize a cat in search.I observe the cat, though someone else may become the cat. I observe this cat which is most likely of my own creation. This search will often pan out in some kind of clue, or an additional discovery. It will come to mind.Sound can be an additional option or help.Whatever works by producing a result.
Just be careful what you are creating and possibly mobilize. Conscious awareness is better than other means.
The kind of animal used, usually has the instinctual characterists of what is needed to accomplish something.

Coffee,
You have me interested. You have a sense of urgency? Could you explain more?

quote:maybe you don't even think there is a war

I've come to see battles of energy, if that is what you mean.
I do believe there is a spiritual war taking place, but only through sensing.


Nagual, interesting take on it. I see money as energy. How it's used and perceived is important.

Xander, very interesting. You have given me something to think about.

Hmmm. Just had a thought. Someone had an animal question in the dream section. It made me think that maybe to understand the nature of reptiles could be interesting. What kind of reptiles are portrayed in these programs?  The author Ted Andrews from his book Animal-Speak makes a distinction between reptiles and amphibians.

Could someone who is interested in reptiles, and experiences reptilian life (in the astral for instance), have reptiles as his/her totem animal? I would think so.

LadyEowyn,
Maybe their your totems (as it's often called)? On the other side there is the opposing or opposite. The white/black birds I think of yin yang. You mentioned the first cat was male. Is this your  instincts developing? Cats represent female instinctual qualities (e.g. hunting and searching). Birds represent messages (e.g. higher planes to the earth plane).

Have you ever read "Animal-Speak" by Ted Andrews? This book helped me understand the animal kingdom.If you like, I'll look up birds and cats up in the book when I get a chance.

I think evil is a construction of something. It is built, not already made. That's why you hear of evil empires. It's not any particular person or thing, it's a grouping of more than more idea which forms a negative enity. The negative enity should be the warning system. If something is not constructed correctly, warning signs ring out. It's for this reason I don't believe something that may be seen a certain way is not necessarily bad or good. It's more for understanding or perceiving, and then to make the corrections as needed. Many people are quite accepting of things constructed wrong in many aspects of private life and social life (complacency & compliance). The discerning person sees a problem and takes steps to change it, whether it be on a personal level or a society level. A blind alley in this however is when a person places blame on a particular person or group. I have never seen this ever solve anything. It only delays or obscures the root of the problem. Evil is bad. Everyone's perception of what this varies. There are no bad people, only people who have allowed themselves to be led down a blind alley. When a person gets trapped anything can happen. A good start is observing anything immediately around one for signs of control issues and trappings. Release from this will cause a reaction and a change.
Another observation I've seen are that the wrong people are oftentime in the wrong positions for change to occur. This however is a catch 22, if the right things get changed, the right people are in right place. I don't believe dark enities are bad. I think their in place for a purpose just as good enities are. I believe individuals contribute unknowingly and knowingly to good or evil. Relationships a person chooses says only something bad in general by the result it causes. Bad symbiotics relationships are combination factors gone wrong.Could the cycle of the appearance of evil begin here? Evil is only the warning. Bad news is the result.To be able to distinguish between good in progress is also a discerning factor. Who judges this?

About the Heaven vs Hell thing? I believe the individual builds his/her's private hell. How this pans out in the end with God, who know but God. I believe a person cannot see a heaven unless they learn how to build a heaven of their own while on earth. How this pans out is also up to God.

[] Maybe the V was for VanGogh? I'm not familiar with the reptilian shows. The reptilian race may be a warning of some kind? It doesn't sound good!

Thanks for the links GhostRider. Don't laugh, but I had a dream once about being on an airliner, I was sitting next to Rod Serling (of Twilight Zone) and we were chatting. Several months later, I discovered the Twighlight Zone series came out at the local library. I've been checking them out ever since.
Another weird thing. I listened to an interview with James VanPraugh once. I was so impressed with what he said, afterward I grabbed my dream journal (nearest paper handy), and wrote down 8 pages of notes of everything he said. For a short period of time I could remember everything he had said word for word.
You also mentioned a while back about the ABC program about "Was Jesus Married". I watched it, it was good. The program said something about Mary Magdeline sitting on the right side of Jesus in "The Last Supper" painting. The V shape was formed by the way Mary and Jesus sat at the table in the painting. I forgot what the message of the V shape was suppose to mean. Next time I visited my mom, I checked out a picture she had of "The Last Supper". Sure enough, it was a woman and a V shape was formed between her and Jesus. It makes me wonder.

Glad to see you smiling Beth. You have some nice input here, thank you. Sorry if you felt I may have skimmed over your rough two years of coming to terms with the new information you have received. I do feel for you. I haven't had to experience dissappointing discoveries about the bible. As mentioned before, my contact with God has always been through prayer, not through any info obtained from the bible. Whatever you say doesn't plunge a knife in my heart, or cause any other reaction. How I relate to the bible hasn't changed for me. Earlier in our conversation, we've talked about creating one's own reality. Though you probably have gone through a realization trauma (if that's worded right), I'm sure you have paved your way in preparedness. I too have had to go through transition in my spiritual life (not on this subject, nor at this time). So I do know some of what you have had to go through. I appreciate what you say about not holding back on those things you have come to know as proof of the truth. To compromise is usually a wrong move, I wouldn't either. I follow what your saying. I enjoy reading what you have found, thanks.

Mustardseed,
I think we are an incidental presence (possibly a hinderous...oops) of what "they" are trying to do. It's not a personal attack MS. They have received the message. Your specifics you are now talking about are essentially voided by way of Beth's quote.

quote:My last post in this thread was most definately reactionary. And I apologize.

It was just a "reactionary" statement,and of no consequence. If I may be so bold as to suggest, get an eraser and wipe it from your blackboard. It never happened (try it, it works []).
Imo, what Adrian thinks of us is neither here or there. I'm sure he is only encouraging and pushing Beth forward in a good way. I'm just a little slow catching on to some things. I'm just wanting to clue you into the same thing.It doesn't mean we have to agree about it, just allow them some freedom too.

BTW- Great OBE you have written about in another forum!

Beth,
Sorry to come off sounding accusing. Actually I was trying to "critique".In other words,to be the response of the skeptic, the sounding out of your ideas against my standard. My standard is similar (though not exact) to others. If I was reading this solo, no verbalization is necessary. I have joined the discussion, therefore I "voice". We are not dealing with scientifically provable material, but ideas and precepts. A literist has to wade through your thoughts and material differently than those who are are on your side of the fence. Instead of keeping to your mindset that the literist is what you have perceived (that which you repeat over and over again), at least be open minded that we may be right in part. This may give you window or view you haven't thought about before. I have dream work ideas about the bible. Your information may be valuble for building on that for me. It's kind of hard to think dream material when part of the picture is being cut out. I'm trying to listen. I'm also trying to listen to MustardSeed. Let him bloom. He is a gentle person having to be in armour here.

It takes a while for one person to know another. I wasn't aware of your sensitive nature until all this blew up. Now that I know this, I will be more tactful. Plus, as I gather more of your purpose, I will stay clear of your stream.

Beth:

quote:Mustardseed, we hear your voice loud and clear--we just simply disagree.

IMO: I see more similarities than differences.

No news is good news to me. []

No damage done at my end MS, but I do appreciate your concern. It kind of strikes me as just reactionary now. I'm sure willing to let it go. []

If my memory serves me right, Joyce Meyer did promote the prosperity angle in her ministry. She also took a humorous angle which attracted her audience. There is a lot to be said about laughter and lightening up a bit. []

The prosperity she did seem to possess didn't set right with me. That wasn't the reason I drifted from listening to that sort of thing. God sent me in another direction.
I'm talking in the past tense because it's been soooo long since I've ventured in this area.

I've always liked Billy Graham. I can't say I've ever sat through one of his sermons though. [:I] I've never known if this is good thing, or a bad thing, [?]. He can sure attract the masses though, huh?

I can say I sat through an entire episode of "Touched By an Angel".It was heavy on the emotional aspect of things. It was a tear jerker, but there are other ways to look at things too.

Adrian,
Anger is not at play here for me. I am expressing freely an appropiate response to circumstances which can occur in life. Expression and anger are not the same thing.

I'm sure you are quite aware of the true dynamics of the emotion anger.  Anger and fear are tightly coiled. My belief system is not in any internal fear or danger. [] I am secure.

Matter of FACT, this encounter only reinforces the beliefs I have already come to know as truth.

I'm in agreement with MustardSeed and also must decline the invitation or trial to be guilty of ignorance.

Here is the top portion of MY list of priorities or hierarchy for information:

1. God

2. Son

3. Holy Spirit

4. Me *

5. Any person or thing other than the above.

* I find that most people will respond openly and honestly if I make that person #4 and me #5 during my encounter with him or her. That way I get another perspective other than my own.

Adrian said,

quote:Might I suggest that rather than being angry and upset about these discussions, you present your own independant sources of information in support of your own positions vis a vis the bible, God, Jesus, and the authenticity of christianity generally.

Having addressed my views on your anger issue, the rest I feel I've answered here, and in my previous post.

When the opportunity presents itself, and the time is right, I will be glad to add anything significant. Until then, I will be delighted to check out Beth's intriguing studies.

Wyzeguy,
In a nutshell for me, it's about free choice and free speech. Anyone with an idea or belief is their's to own. What that entails is unique and personal to each and everyone. Churches may or may not represent the personal view exactly of any person, but they exist for a purpose(imo).
The problem is when one person or a group's belief takes steps to make another one's personal or church beliefs nil and void.  In this case it's being done by calling other beliefs wrong by proof through another enity's research. The only choice given in this matter, is believe us (enity), or else find out through your own research(you are nil/void otherwise in your beliefs). Nevermind what I or others have already have come to know for him/herself, because you are automatically wrong by way of "research". Research, being this intellectual and rational enity.

Freedom of choice is at stake here.

My belief is ......well,...whatever I believe (this is what makes me, ME). I don't want anyone trampling on it, and I wouldn't want someone else being taken advantage in the same manner. Freedom of speech on the matter is in question by what I see happening to MustardSeed. He understands his choices, and who he IS, but is not being allowed to express IT. I've been watching this for some time. Now, because I dared to exercise my free speech about it, I'm in the same boat with MustardSeed.

quote: No two people can have exactly the same views on something so undefineable.

You make a true point eleusis. []

Well MustardSeed, looks like the lions done us in. [xx(]

What Now?

We can come back in spirit! []