Messages

Quick amendment: you obviously have the CD, is it really worth it?  I want to burn them (copy them) because I am such a poor college student, but I also love Monroe and the Institute...so I would feel bad...anyway, I do have one of their CD's, which I purchased, but I am interested in the Wave set....I just want to make sure that it's going to help me.  My OBEs are hit and miss and for me it depends how much FOCUS I put in to it, and during the school year I am just so busy with research, writing, etc.  

Anyway, fascinating conversations here and I thank all who have shared questions and answers, it's very helpful.

-Dan

Frank-
Quick question.  My approach to exit technique(s) and levels of awareness, etc. is much more, umm, how can I describe it?  Well, less seperate, more fluid...less structured, but I definetly see the benefits of breaking it up in "Focus" levels.

My question is this, I want to start understanding more about Gateway type excercises.  Do you have CD set or do you just study this kind of breakdown?  
-Dan

Frank is great, he's always hiding in the shadows and then, boom, he suddenly appears for a moment, a fading specter leaving a message, and he's gone.  

Sometimes I wish I weren't such a rabble rouser.  But it's fun!

A lot of the stuff I bring up just to bring it up and get people talking, is that bad???
[8D][][}:)][][][:O][}:)][8D][)]

About Al Jezeera, what a freakin' joke...while one might gain valuable insights into how others think and feel, one thing you won't get from them is any objectivity, I mean they have pictures of little kids with bomber superimposed on the image....to me it's like 1920's propoganda or something.  Maybe other news ources are guilty of not being objective, but at least they do a better job of covering it up!

"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes, that way when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes." that's the way I look at it!  JK[]

Well, if the answer to that question is so paramount then answer the same question yourself: Have you walked in my shoes?  How does it feel?

I really don't understand that.  I mean, I know what you are trying to say: don't criticize until you know excatly how I feel.  Well, I am not criticizing you.  I'm really not, I am sharing my opinion. Period.  

I asked a buddy is was in the military and keeps up on the info about Afghanistan and here's what he said (and mind you this is just off the cuff, opinion):

Probably from Azzam.com.Or jhiadunspun. they tend to post a few dozen US deaths evry week.all with no tally casulties.
According to these channels of info, The "mhujadeen"in these attacks are brave and devout,the yanks run round like headless chickens firing wildly causing no kills,and the "Mujadeen" vanish immune to US surveillance,The episode is always followed by "massive indiscriminate bombing" which kills only innocent farmers.

"I think the freindly deaths all told from Op enduring freedom is apx 3 KIA,perhaps triple that WIA all all causes.Perhaps even 2 or 3 MIA's.
This is just my speculation,I tried running all the major fights through TNDM,and came out with nearly 1000 US/UK casulties for all causes & all States.This seems a bit much to cover up!

BTW.Did you know that according to Azzam,the Coalition has lost over 120 helicopters!

Inguma wrote: "You cannot trust anything in the press about the war at the moment, about 90% it complete fabrication."  Whoa, that number seems a little high to me buddy.  I don't think much news is FABRICATED, which means compeltely made up.  Maybe they put a spin on it, but made up?  I believe that most journalists, especially those imbedded, are reporting the truth.  Those guys are straight up FANATICAL about objectivity and truth.  I mean, Al-Jezeera and the Iraqi minister of info, now those guys fabricate information.  Up till just a few days ago the Iraqi minister of info was saying the US were not even in Iraq!  Ha!

Anyway, I think it's too bad how both sides of any issue try to cover up the truth or twist it to make them look good.  I do think, however, that these days much of what is reported is generally true and if you read between the lines you can get at what's really going on.

Conspiracy theories abound and they are usually more off then even the most wacky news agencies.  

About American causalties in Afghanistan, 1200 US casualities seems a bit high...I am trying to find more info on that

I guess the main idea some of you are getting across is that if I don't believe homosexuality is ok then I am 1) An insincere and judgemental person and 2) I don't really understand love and sprituality.  
I, on the other hand, allow you to disagree and don't think: 1) that you are evil 2) that you are going to hell and 3) that homosexuals are evil, sick people

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Ender:  Hey.  Ok, I'll try to answer your question here, I am sorry if I didn't get to it: "We are genderless in soul/spirit" you said.  Well, I believe that our spirits reflect who were are in the flesh, and therefore I believe in gendered beings.  I am a believer in duality-opposition in all things.  Light/dark, etc etc.  I think the universe is one huge ying yang...that's a very simple and gross way of explaining something that's, well, uh, HUGE to say the least.  Therefore, I believe in male and female.  Is it always this cut and dry in this mortal life, no...and that's what this thread is all about.  Are you evil if you are not attracted to a man if you are a woman?  NO.  But I do think that things were designed for a particular prupose...

GoingSlow wrote "After i realized you were spouting dogma instead of thinking for yourself this conversation ended for me. I assumed were you using your own logic not spouting someone elses."  
    Well, I don't know why you are so sure that I am not thinking for myself.  You seem to know exactly what I am thinking and exactly how I feel.  Can you tell me how to do this? For what it's worth to you, I have given this topic a lot of thought, in fact I really am not someone who blindly accepts things.  I know it is very difficult to really get to know someone in forums like this, but those people who know me well probably get a little perturbed by the fact that I analyze everything and study it out in my mind and my heart before I come to conclusions.  I didn't just wake up one day and decide, "Oh, I am going to believe _____ because _____ said it!"

You also wrote:
"Plus you're obviously not reading anyone's posts. Just skimming through and picking up things here and there."
  Talk about judging people?[V]  How would you know what I am reading or not?  I have tried to read everyone's ideas.  If I havent' responded in the way you like to every idea, I am sorry...but some things I really don't feel like responding too for a number of reasons.'

Finally, you said that as far as your concerned "this conversation is over", I am sorry you feel that way...so frustrated and upset, please don't!  I don't want to anger you or make you made.  It's about understanding one another, isn't that what you are trying to get me to do?

I also don't know why everyone keeps bringing up the Bible so much.  Yes, I believe the Bible is a revealed work, but I also believe that it has been translated badly and in fact contains some huge errors, some of which came about because of mistakes and other things were twisted on purpose by indivuals who wanted to use it to control others...and in fact the book, in my opinion, is still used to control others for evil or otherwise negative ways.

Everything I have said I believe not because I was told, but because it makes sense to me logically and in my spirit.

I also love everyone, even the jerk who cut me off in my car today![]
I don't care if you are gay or not.  In fact I don't even think about the issue a whole lot unless I see people forcing it down other people's throats, and last quarter in one of my classes I did have that happen.  I don't go around forcing my opinions down other peoples throats...you know?

Anyway, I think this conversation is great.  I really hope those of you who adamantly oppose the way I feel about this issue won't diregard everything I say in the future![]

"i think he created life and let it take its own course"

SpiritGurl- this take on life really helps me understand where you are coming from.

How do I know this is the way it is?  I asked God.  We can all tak to God, we just have to open our hearts and minds and He talks to us.

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Hey, thanks for all the comments everyone. I realize that I, like many others, have been getting a little worked up over this...but I am beginning to calm down a bit and realize that this is all positive.

First of all, Timeless, nothing you haave said has "enraged" me as you say...I just got a little upset with the way I was attacked by some of the others. I think it's really funny how people are judging me by saying I am too judgemental, I mean think about that for a second!

Now, someone asked, "Oh, ok...tell me where the gene is that makes a man like a woman and vice-versa?" What a question! I had to laugh...I mean, anyone who knows anything about X and Y chromosomes knows the answer to this one. Furthermore, and this isn't something I thought I would have to share with adults in here, but here it goes: a man is born with male sex organs and a woman with female ones. Men and women are inherintly different because their bodies are made to come together in unity to produce offspring.

Some of the real, underlying set of beliefs that I hold dear which make me believe that homosexuality is contrary to the plans and designs of God is this:

1) We all lived as spirits before we came here (in a state of duality, etc but I won't get into all of that)

2) We came "down" here to earth in order to a) obtain physical, mortal bodies b) to experience duality, ie. right/wrong, dark/light, good/evil, sweet/bitter, etc. etc. There are many lessons we are to learn here in life.

3) One of the most vital parts to this design is for more spirits to continue to come down and expereince mortality, like we are... By producing offspring (multiply and replenish the earth and all the fun stuff) more spirits can come down. I really believe that the negative spirits, those who chose not to recieve mortal bodies, "negs" or whatever you want to call them, are constantly trying to thwart this plan because the plan is to return back with the knowledge we gain in order to become more and more like God until we too are perfect.

Marriage and family, even eternal family units, are the center of the plan.

Thanks for the info guys.  It's nice to see that I am not going to be shunned in other threads because of my take on the gay issue! jk

Hey, thanks for all the comments everyone.  I realize that I, like many others, have been getting a little worked up over this...but I am beginning to calm down a bit and realize that this is all positive.

First of all, Timeless, nothing you haave said has "enraged" me as you say...I just got a little upset with the way I was attacked by some of the others.  I think it's really funny how people are judging me by saying I am too judgemental, I mean think about that for a second![]

Now, someone asked, "Oh, ok...tell me where the gene is that makes a man like a woman and vice-versa?"  What a question!  I had to laugh...I mean, anyone who knows anything about X and Y chromosomes knows the answer to this one.  Furthermore, and this isn't something I thought I would have to share with adults in here, but here it goes: a man is born with male sex organs and a woman with female ones.  Men and women are inherintly different because their bodies are made to come together in unity to produce offspring.

Some of the real, underlying set of beliefs that I hold dear which make me believe that homosexuality is contrary to the plans and designs of God is this:

1) We all lived as spirits before we came here (in a state of duality, etc but I won't get into all of that)

2) We came "down" here to earth in order to a) obtain physical, mortal bodies b) to experience duality, ie. right/wrong, dark/light, good/evil, sweet/bitter, etc. etc.  There are many lessons we are to learn here in life.

3) One of the most vital parts to this design is for more spirits to continue to come down and expereince mortality, like we are...  By producing offspring (multiply and replenish the earth and all the fun stuff) more spirits can come down.  I really believe that the negative spirits, those who chose not to recieve mortal bodies, "negs" or whatever you want to call them, are constantly trying to thwart this plan because the plan is to return back with the knowledge we gain in order to become more and more like God until we too are perfect.

Marriage and family, even eternal family units, are the center of the plan.

When a man and a woman learn to live in peace and harmony and come together and are complete, it's like the ying-yang coming together, two very differnt parts and it alomst overcomes the sense of duality that pervades this life and it creates.  In the next life I think that a similar process will take place spiritually...and I don't pretend to understand it all, but I do know that this life is a pattern and a reflection, albeit on a lower level, of things much higer and more glorious.

Not everyone born into mortality is born with the physical characteristics or mental capacity to fulfuill these things, and that is FINE!  God knows all and he is the only perfect judge.  People are born into this life in very different physical, mental and cultural circumstances and all of these things are for their good, in the long run.  

Someone BORN with homosexual feelings is not evil and believe that is a unique and, for me, an unimaginable challenge. I don't pretend to judge them in any kind of harsh or critical way.  But, I think there are many other ways people begin to develop these feelings...whether because of something someone did to them, because they experimented, etc.  I don't think these are good things and, in fact, I think they thwart the wonderful plan that keeps brining new life and new spirits into this world.

So, now, to answer EnderWiggins question about LOVE and why I thinhk heterosexual love is "superior", well, I guess I shouldn't have used that word.  "Different" might be a better word, but I still believe that the natural love that has the power to bring about new life and start a family unit, the most influential and powerful organizational unit in the world, is a kind of love unparalleled by any other.

In schools we see children who have all kinds of difficulties and those often tend to be children who don't have both a loving father and mother at home.  My parents didn't have both of their parents at home and life was more difficult for them.  Even if you do have both parents at home and they don't have true love for one another and for their children it doesn't work.

Now, I am positive that there are homosexual couples who have adopted children who have more love in their relationship and for their children that some heterosexuals, but I am not talking about that.  I am talking about a mother and father who really love one another and their children and strive to gorw spiritually.  I think that is an unrivaled organization and it is the way God designed it to be...it's apparent by our bodies and the fact that children inherintly want a mommy and a daddy.

Thank you for your level headed and open mind.  We all have the right to express how we feel without being attacked...I don't mean to offend people and I am not saying "This is the WAY IT IS...or anything like that".

Also, I am very sorry if it appeared that I started out with the idea to make things turn out the way they have.  I really did want to know what people think, I still do...I think this is a very important topic and I think EVERYONE who has shared their take on it has contributed something very important to it, including myself.

After I read what people were saying about this topic I found it appopriate to share what I think...I didn't want to start out the post by saying, "Hey, what do you think about this?" and then say "I think it's not good" because then I just would have seen the kind of responses that have been posted recently."  In fact I started this post simply to see what kind of constructive debates/ideas would be shared, but I have been a little saddened by some of the responses.

Timeless- thank you for your last post.  I understand what you are saying, I really do and I appreciate you putting yourself in my shoes, I really do...and yes, I have thought about what it would be like to be in a gay persons shoes and obviously it would be much different.



Like I said in the previous post (the one before this one), I think everyone has the right to an opinion...I don't see where people get off thinking "Hey you dumb, ingnorant fool...I don't agree with you and I think you are absolutely crazy and wrong..."  as you have seen, I have not responded this way ONCE in this post because I think that is a less effective way of sharing ideas and disagreeing.  

I know some people here disagree 100% with what I am saying and that's fine and no matter what I am not going to assualt their integrity or intelligence for it...that just makes me feel bad and I think that's wrong.  I really, geniunely try to respect people's right to choose one way or another what they believe.  

Life offers an infinite amount of subjective realities and despite the fact I believe in a firm, objective reality...a higher truth, I am not going to try to say that everything that is true for me is true for you simply because we are all on different levels.  Am I on a lower/higher level than you?  I am not going to venture to answer that because I cannot...does this make sense?

So, homosexuality...yes it's a touchy subject.  It comes down to this: are we going to tear eachother to pieces over it?  Well, I am not.  I am not going to go out and beat up a gay person because I disagree with what they are saying or believing.  In a way, though, people are doing just that to me...at least verbally.  Am I losing sleep over it?  Not at all.  But it does make me wonder how that can be justified.

I don't even know if what I am saying is making sense....ha ha!  I am sure a lot of you like when I say that because I know you don't think I make sense at all, at least regarding some issues...and that's fine!  That's my point!  It's my right and your right to say what we want, as long as we don't go around beating each other up about it or hurting one another.  
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ANYWAY---what I am pasting below will likely drive some of you crazy, but if you take the time to read it, it communicates most of my feelings regarding this topic in a way more clearly than I have the time to do so.
I would have provided a link, but I couldn't.  Please read this with an open mind and I promise I will continue to read your ideas and opinions with an open mind!  []

[][][][][][][][][][][]
This page will inevitably offend many people. After all, I am a heterosexual man telling gay men that being gay is bad. I recognize that the issue of sexuality cuts to the most sensitive parts of our nature. There is a lot of pain here, and I don't want to add to that. There is also a lot of bigotry among those who call themselves Christians. Let us get beyond that evil, and try to understand what homosexuality really is.

This page is based on theory and observation. If you want a web site from people who have actually been through it themselves, visit Evergreen International at

www.evergreen-intl.org/

Introduction: "I can't change the way I am"
I will always remember the first time someone told me this. The lady in question was a new member of the church. She felt that she had always been a particular way, and it was no use suggesting that she could change. I have heard the same sentiment many times since. But she was not referring to her sexuality. She was referring to another habit (I forget which) that some others disliked. I wonder if she had an "irritating habit" gene?

Attitudes are very hard to change, and it appears that sexual attitudes, being so deeply felt, are hardest of all. This page looks at whether or not someone should ever try to change their sexual attitude (or orientation – the word means a similar thing), particularly regarding homosexuality. Put bluntly, it asks:

Is anything wrong with being gay?
and
Is anyone born that way?
To answer the first question, we will need to look at sexual attraction in general.

Summary:
People are not "gay" or "straight." We are all more complicated than this, and have more freedom than we may like to admit. Some attitudes and habits are just more difficult to change than others. The main points of this page are as follows:

Heterosexuals are often guilty of cruel, ignorant, unkind and abusive language and behavior toward homosexuals. This is wrong, and heterosexuals need to repent. Sexual sin is very bad, but plain nastiness is also very destructive.
Homosexuality does lasting damage to family life, just as many other behaviors do.
The church strongly warns people away from homosexuality. Not because it is any worse than say, fornication, but because it appears to be extremely difficult to change once adopted.
This is not to say that homosexuals are inferior. Many homosexuals have good qualities that many heterosexuals lack. Sexuality does not determine a person's worth.
Scientists agree that, if there is any genetic element (which is still in doubt), it is far less significant than the choice to be homosexual.
The topic of the church and homosexuality is covered in two excellent articles at "All About Mormons." This page mainly deals with issues that are not directly addressed there. As with many pages on this site, this page reflects my own understanding, and is not an official statement of church policy unless stated.

Why Have a Page on Homosexuality?
Isn't this a web site about prophecy and science? Then why cover homosexuality? Well, there are three reasons:

Misunderstandings around this issue keep many people away from the gospel. That is unnecessary, and saddens me. This site was designed to bring all people to Christ.
I have read some very good materials on the topic, but none of them seem to do it justice. As one writer puts it (an LDS man with a gay son who died of AIDS): "conventional explanations don't adequately account for what is really happening to people."
Many people have not studied the topic, but reject the church because they see it as backward and small minded
Some people who use this web site search for this topic
My Qualifications:
What are my qualifications for writing this? Well, it is true that I have known a few gay men (or men who felt they might be gay). I have a very close female friend (we were engaged) who many years ago "came out" that she was lesbian. I have also served and continue to serve in high ecclesiastical positions within the church, which has imparted in me a certain sensitivity to people and their varied challenges, as I meet with and counsel them. But my main qualification is that, as far as I can see, homosexuality is no different from any other identity issue, and homosexual desire is not fundamentally different from any other desire.

Beyond that, I too have always felt I was different. I have never enjoyed sports, and felt alienated from mainstream society. I can also see that the gay community has a lot to offer. So I find a lot of the accounts I read to be familiar. But I think we all have a lot more freedom of choice than we are prepared to admit.

NB When I use the term "gay" or "gay man" I also mean lesbians, unless the context suggests otherwise.

Sexuality Within Society:
From a religious point of view, heterosexual marriage and fidelity were given by God because he knows what is best for us.

From a scientific point of view, heterosexual marriage is an institution that developed in order for a complex society to live together in relative peace and freedom.

From both points of view, homosexuality is counter-productive. These few pages just look at the scientific viewpoint. (The religious viewpoint is much simpler: God simply states "Don't do it.")

Is There Anything Wrong With Homosexuality?
What is Good About Homosexuality?

Homosexuals are all different, just as heterosexuals are. But many homosexuals reject the more predatory and hypocritical aspects of mainstream culture. If you reject loud mouthed idiots and are more able to speak with members of the opposite sex as human beings, that is a good thing. But you don't have to be gay to be sensitive. In fact, all the good things associated with homosexuality can be had without being homosexual. Homosexuality on its own, has no real benefits. (See the question about happiness and the section on 'what is sexuality,' below.)

In general, the individual problems are relatively minor. Together, they are enough to be significant. They are still not as serious as some other behaviors, so why make such a fuss? Because once a person has chosen this behavior (or allowed themselves to drift into it), it becomes extremely difficult to change – the damage lasts a long time. So being a homosexual is rather like having a leg missing. It is not the worst thing that can happen, but it is very difficult to fix, and even if a person is born that way, fixing it is still the best solution.

This section does not look at the eternal ramifications of homosexuality (e.g. eternal progression is built on the model of the family), but only on its effect in this life.

What is Bad About Homosexuality?

"Nothing – I know lots of good gay men and lesbians!"

This is usually the first response, so perhaps I should clarify some things:

Every individual is a mixture of many things.
If you are gay that does not mean you cannot be excellent in other ways.


The problems listed here are not as serious as some other things.
I am not claiming that gay men are psychopathic child abusers. The overall observable differences are probably not huge. I am just saying that they are real issues that will, if adopted in general, tend to have real (and negative) effects, even if those effects are minimized.


Gays and lesbians are a persecuted minority.
Any openly gay person is aware of being watched with (often groundless) suspicion. So a gay man is likely to try harder. For example, a gay couple who adopt children are more likely to be a model family. Some of the following points would only become significant if homosexuality became ordinary and commonplace.


Everyone says their own friends are good.
This is going to sound offensive, but we can never say "my friends are good and gay and therefore being gay is harmless" unless we know...
...what the same person would be like if they were not gay and had never had any gay feelings in their whole life, and
...that any difference can be attributed to their being sexual orientation. It is quite possible that a typical gay man is happier and more stable for reasons that are not directly related to sexual orientation – see below.
So what is wrong with being gay? I shall ignore the major theological issues for now...

In a Word, Childlessness:
By choosing homosexuality, you choose an affliction that many people (who never had the choice) spend millions of dollars trying to overcome. You cut yourself off from the most wonderful, fulfilling, and meaningful experience possible – having your own children. Some people are unable to have children for medical reasons, and they deserve every help and support. But to voluntarily cut yourself off from this experience is to forever limit the joy and growth you might have received. The fact that having children is important to homosexual persons is evident in the strong push for social acceptance of gay parents adopting children and lesbian couples desiring access to IVF technology. Why artifically cut yourself off from the way God designed for children to be created?

But there are other issues as well.


It Reduces Freedom of Action:
This is the smallest of the three problems.

I am not suggesting that homosexuality is a slippery slope to anarchy and the destruction of society (though this could be argued), but simply that social norms are a good thing. It is a fact (perhaps unavoidably) that when heterosexual men and women are together, they behave differently than when they are in a same sex environment. Why? Because sexual attraction is so powerful, and because roles (whether biologically or environmentally determined) mean that men and women are different. These differences are healthy.

There are times when same-sex groups are preferable. For example, girls perform academically better in same sex schools than in mixed schools. Or there are times when it is just fun to be yourself and talk to people who think the same. There are those who argue that male and female differences are significant in other ways too.

If homosexuality was common, it would be impossible to have a single sex group where there was absolutely no danger of sexual desire. This is not because homosexuals are weaker than heterosexuals. It would be just the same if a few heterosexual men were mixed into a group of heterosexual women. The women could not behave in quite the same way as before. Thus their freedom is limited. Even if the men always behaved impeccably, there is the possibility of misunderstanding, and a precedent is set for other men who may be more devious.

The usual answer to this argument is that people can learn to be self controlled. This is true. But there will always be some who have less self-control than others. Hence he problem can be reduced, but it cannot be eliminated.


It Avoids Variety:
Homosexuality is often portrayed as a form of variety. But there is generally less variety between two people of the same sex than there is between two people of the opposite sex. Homosexuality, in general, thus avoids the challenge of variety.

It could be argued that multiple partners (whether homosexual or heterosexual) provides that variety. But I would argue the opposite: multiple partners means avoiding variety. When one partner presents behavior that we cannot cope with, we just move on.

Living a whole life with someone who is fundamentally different is healthy. It forces us to become more understanding. Men and women in particular tend to have complementary strengths, and learning to live together in love is one of the great growing experiences of life.

You might respond, if heterosexuals are so understanding, why are so many so prejudiced?


Partly due to the sin of serial monogamy. As noted above, many people do not face up to difficulties, but just move on to another partner.
Partly because we often do not face up to our problems but just learn to live with being unhappy. Hence the popular idea that being single is fun, but being married is miserable. We choose to make them so by not facing up to challenges.


The wisest and most balanced, unselfish and nicest people I know are those are elderly married couples who have learned how to be in love their whole life.


It Weakens Family Bonds:

A gay couple cannot have their own children. They can (in theory) adopt, but the biological parent will be someone else. From what I know of adoption, the adopted child usually feels a link with their birth parent, just as a birth parent feels a bond with their child. Hence the gay couple family bond is weaker, being divided.

If we accept the conclusions of evolutionary theory, and these particular conclusions are backed up by numerous studies, we should not expect an adopted family to be as strong as a natural family. This is of course the average – many natural families are very weak, and many gay families will be very strong. But overall, there is a difference, and in a country of several million people, this translates into a few more unhappy and dysfunctional people.

This is not to say that adopted parents are worse parents. At present people adopt because they have no choice. Hence many probably try harder, and this can easily make up for any increased biological risk. This is specially true in current gay families. Because of the adverse publicity and the small numbers involved, I would expect that each gay couple who adopts children would try extra hard to be perfect parents. But as more and more gay couples adopt children, the pressure to be exemplary disappears. Once gay couples are just ordinary couples, the effects of weakened bonds will become more apparent.

One solution is to not have children. But apart from reducing freedom of choice, this avoids all the benefits of having children. As with marrying someone who is different, learning to live with and love children has the effect of improving a person's understanding and unselfishness. (Which is not to say that this is automatic – we choose to bring up children well or badly, just as we choose everything else.)


It Creates Confusion, Which Creates Misery:
Because sexuality is so personal and so complex, it seems to have the unique ability to confuse and create misery.

Many people who "come out" as gay report initial confusion over their sexual nature. This generally makes them unhappy. I suggest that the confusion is not because they are "trying to be something they are not" but because they do not know what they are. Something has made them suddenly see homosexuality as an option (it could be a number of things) and now hey are confused.

Or consider the woman who has been raped. She knows it is not her fault, so why not get on with life and not worry about it? There is no logical reason to get upset, but people do get very, very upset. The worry seems to be "Did I encourage it somehow? Will I feel as happy about my body?" etc. It seems that any hint of doubt over your sexual nature creates confusion.

Or the example of the child who is sexually abused. Logically once they realize it is not their fault, they should be able to forget it. But of course they cannot. The feelings are apparently similar to being raped, but without the experience of an adult to guide them.

Sexual confusion is a damaging thing. It is a simple fact in any sphere of information that more information leads to more confusion. No matter how clearly we explain the options, more options will lead to more confusion. There is no compelling reason for more options (see the comments below about happiness), so why add to the pain?

There is also the fact that, once boundaries are blurred, it is easier to confuse ourselves, to miss he obvious, and to confuse others. Pedophiles, for example, benefit greatly from the boundaries of right and wrong being blurred, even though gay men would be the first to say that pedophilia is wrong (even if there is a pedophilia gene).

When the potential for pain is so great, and there is no compelling need to accept alternative sexual orientations, we should be very careful before adding to the potential for confusion.


The Genetic Argument Favors Adultery – and Worse:
As one writer put it, "The rationalizations presented for homosexual behavior... [such as 'it is not my choice'] are suspiciously identical to the rationalizations I have heard presented by child molesters and confirmed adulterers in the context of my work as an attorney." (Sunstone, Feb '89 p.4)

The usual response is to show the differences between homosexual behavior (consenting adults) and child molesting or adultery (which creates victims). But that response misses the point. We all accept that there are worse things in life than homosexuality. The point is that if we accept the argument for one, how can we reject the same argument when used for the other? For example, there is a very strong case for a genetic basis for adultery (e.g,. men are biologically programmed to spread their seed as far as possible). If we even begin to accept the argument for homosexuality, we will have to say that adultery is acceptable.
"But I am happier being gay than being straight!"
Hopefully, people who "come out" as being gay are happier than before – it would be sad to think that someone became gay and then became more miserable at the same time. But everything that makes a gay man happier being gay than straight can be traced to something other than being gay:

Acceptance from others.
Escaping an abusive environment.
Feeling vindicated in your beliefs.
No longer struggling.
Finding that you are different, special.
Release of tension, and perhaps more sexual opportunities.
Etc.
All of these things can be achieved in other ways, without deciding "I am gay."

And of course it does not help your happiness if you are struggling with self-control, and everyone says "you cannot control it! It is unhealthy to try! You were born that way!" That just creates internal torment.

"Where is the evidence for all this damage?"
I do not claim that these effects are dramatic – life is too complicated for that – but they are real. A person's sexuality is only a part of their life, and the fundamental differences between homosexuality and heterosexuality are easily swamped by other unrelated considerations. That is why I have concentrated on the theory rather than try to produce masses of statistics.

There will be many good gay men and many bad heterosexual men. But the evidence for the above points (as general principles) is clear. It is difficult to see how homosexuality could avoid contributing to these problems.

No doubt some readers will want to help me with this. (Chris stands back as his hotmail account is flooded with angry messages).

What is Sexuality, Anyway?
Before we can understand homosexuality or heterosexuality, we need to understand sexuality in general.

Biology is Not Specific – What You Think Makes All the Difference:
If you have experienced sexual desire, you will know that it is not a case of 'yes' or 'no.' It depends on how someone looks, how they behave, their age, what they say, their shape, height weight, how they dress... if your genes are able to pre-program all of these things, they are very clever indeed.

The genetic element of sexual attraction seems to be very malleable. Why is it that what was sexually attractive hundreds of years ago (e.g. white skin, lots of fat) or even last century (e.g. flat chested women in the 1920s) is generally considered less sexually attractive now? Do genes follow fashions? And what if you fell in love with a woman (or man) only to find that they were actually a man (or a woman) in disguise, as in some stories? It seems that you fall in how you think a person is, and not how they actually are.

"Homosexual activity may be observed in nearly every culture but the way in which it manifests itself varies widely. In some societies, it is an acceptable form of behavior for youth, who then are expected to 'graduate' to heterosexual activity. In medieval Japan many Samurai had male lovers, often in addition to wives, to whom lifelong devotion was the norm. In our culture, however, there is a much more rigid bifurcation between heterosexual and homosexual: gay people are consigned, as it were, to a separate ontological status as human beings, sometimes even to a separate existence. The peculiarities of a given culture doubtlessly color the self perceptions of its homosexuals, and a cross-culture sampling of these perceptions might yield somewhat different results." (Sunstone Review, April 83 p.40)

Biological Drives Are Routinely Re-directed:
Let us start with the assumption that there is a biological basis of sorts. What does it "make" us do or feel?

People seem able to be satisfied by all kinds of sexual experience.

Some people remain celibate because they are so obsessed with their career – they are "married to their work." Is there a gene for this?
We hear of fetishists – people who are 'tuned on' by shoes, leather, or whatever. Is there a gene for loving shoes, or leather? I doubt it.
Some people engage in sadomasochism. Is there a gene for this?
Some people grow to have sexual desires for children. Is there a gene for pedophilia?
If there are genes for these things, who is to say there are not genes for all kinds of other variations in taste? Does it follow that all should be treated equally?
History shows that human societies express sexuality in different ways. In some ancient societies it was normal behavior for men to have homosexual experiences when young, then become heterosexual later on. Is that because the genes suddenly changed? In some societies, homosexuality was the norm (the island of Lesbos was the classic example, hence the name Lesbian). Has normal genetic makeup changed so much since then?

Today, we often hear of people who saw themselves as heterosexual for many years, then decide that they are in fact homosexual. It works the other way too. (Though not as often, given that there are far more heterosexuals than homosexuals.) Some of the people who were once gay but have now become straight form groups (such as "The Evergreen Foundation" or "Exodus") and offer counseling and help to others who feel they may want to change. This fact seems to really annoy the homosexual lobby, though they don't mind if it is the other way around.

So I see no reason to suppose that sexual orientation is not subject to free choice. The only unique feature seems to be that changing orientation seems to be extraordinarily difficult or traumatic. This is to be expected, as it involves so many issues that are vitally important to the individual.

Biology is Only One Small Part:
Sexuality is "the quality or state of being sexual: a) the condition of having sex; b) sexual activity; c) expression of sexual receptivity or interest esp. when excessive." (Webster's Dictionary) Thus, sexuality is a general term for anything covering numerous feelings, behaviors, and attitudes:

feelings of identity in terms of biological gender, self-worth and purpose
beliefs regarding personal identity, biological facts
desires to explore and grow, and for physical stimulation
external physical characteristics, others' opinions
beliefs regarding what is normal, healthy, moral or right
peer group standards of desirability
purpose and goals regarding family and relationships
attitudes to friendship, lust, duty, etc.
desire to fit in, be accepted, feel important, wanted, needed, liked
desire to be different
etc., etc.
It may be helpful to divide all these feelings and beliefs into those we are born with and those we learn. Here I have erred on the side of biology – I am assuming that many things are

Nature
(what we are born with) Nurture
(what we learn)
the need to be loved
the need to feel significant as an individual
the ability to enjoy physical stimulation of many kinds
the appreciation of beauty (a sunny day, a healthy body, etc.)
the desire to learn and experiment
physical appearance
the need to procreate
etc.
some things are forbidden by society (and thus become desirable)
other people expect certain things
goals and ambitions
what gives power
what gains approval
who cares
etc., etc.


Many of these needs and attributes can be satisfied through physically intimate contact with, or intellectual identification with, another human being at an intimate level. We call that sexuality. But it is just an umbrella term for something more complex.

Any complicated experience, if we dwell on it enough or practice it enough, will eventually becomes a feeling, or a habit. That is, we do not think it through each time. Some behaviors start so young, and have so many influences, that it is extremely difficult (if not impossible) to identify where they came from.

In truth, of course, all feelings are learned. We learn to interpret feelings in just the same way that we learn to interpret any other stimuli. New born babies, for example, take a while before they can make sense of the messages they get from their eyes.

Breaking Sexual Orientation Into Manageable Pieces
Changing from liking women to liking men (for example) would be a huge step for anyone. But is such a step necessary?

Breaking it Down Into its Component Parts:

Is it wrong to have good friends of a particular sex? Of course not. (It may not be sensible to spend time alone with someone if you have a problem with temptation, but that is a relatively small price to pay.)
Is it wrong to find someone of a particular sex physically beautiful? No – after all, I am very definitely heterosexual, but I can admire a male athlete as well as anyone. A man does not have to be gay to find Michelangelo's "David" beautiful. At the most, this just requires a subtle shift from "sexually beautiful" to just "beautiful."
Is it wrong to behave in a masculine or feminine way? That is a pretty meaningless question, as no behavior is uniquely masculine or feminine. We all need to be firm yet sensitive at all times, and adjust the balance according to need. No fundamental problems here.
What about the sexual act itself? Stripped of all the other layers, it is purely physical. Forgive me being crude, but your nerve endings do not know if your partner is male or female.
So, what is the problem? Just that "I do not love people of that sex." This can be overcome. We love what we know and care for. If we spend time getting to know someone, and see things from their point of view, we grow to love them. If that person is already a good friend, and someone you like being with, it is so much easier.
But perhaps it does not feel right? Then we need to identify where we get our ideas of right and wrong. Perhaps we think something is ethically wrong? Perhaps our friends would not approve? Perhaps we have always done things a certain way? Whatever the problem is, we can address it and overcome it.
And so we can go on. Divide and conquer – whatever is the problem, it can be addressed in some way.

What is it you love about the people you do love (male, female, or whatever)? Let's say you are a man, and you find men more attractive than women. Why? List the reasons. Perhaps you like dominant people? There are dominant women. Perhaps you like muscular people? There are muscular women. Perhaps you like people with beards? Come on, now we are being silly. Whatever a man can provide, a woman can provide the same. So we come down to the last line of defense, which is "I don't know – I just do!"

Let us have a look at that concept. That is the key. It is easy to identify the issues, but eventually we have to face up to the decision – do we want to?

The Key:
This is the point where I make my stand. If I am being offensive to gays and lesbians, I suppose that this is the big issue, the crux, the key to the whole matter. I believe that "I don't know" is not acceptable as an excuse. We cannot afford to allow our lives to be tossed about by mysterious circumstances. We are not slaves to mysterious forces. We can learn what those forces are, or we can ignore them.

There is already a perfectly simple explanation for sexual preference – it is largely motivated by, and wholly controlled by, learned behavior and attitudes. Any genetic element is routinely controlled by these attitudes, whether conscious or not. Unless something dramatic is discovered by science (which seems highly unlikely), these are facts we need to accept if we want to live in the real world.

It's All About the Fall of Adam:
It's the same old story: consciousness, free will, choices, knowledge, independence – call it what you will. We can choose to be controlled by mysterious forces, or we can learn about those forces and take control ourselves. That was the whole point of the fall of Adam. Before the fall (as far as I can see), mankind existed for untold ages as a victim of circumstances, unable to understand or do anything about his life. After the fall, mankind began to take control of his life – and responsibility for it – for good or for ill.

"Man is not the creature of circumstance. Circumstances are the creature of man."

I once knew a man who was very interested in the church, but would not join, and would not get married either, because he once (many years ago) had a homosexual experience. He did not know if he perhaps would again, so his life was on hold. Instead of controlling his life, and deciding "I will not do this" or "I will do this" and living accordingly, he was letting his life control him.

This must sound very "holier than thou," coming from someone who does not have any particular homosexual desires (though I am sure I could develop them if I chose – as a male, I find a lot to admire in other males). But I do have experience of this principle at work in other areas of my life. We all do. It is a common problem. It is perhaps the universal problem in all walks of life. We all choose to let our lives control us in some ways, instead of taking charge.

I often read (in newspapers mainly) of people who have broken up a family because they just felt attracted to someone else, or people who do something bad and then try to blame someone else for effectively controlling them. I have had people tell me "I hope I don't do this or that thing again, but you can never know for sure." Well actually you can know for sure. If something is important enough, you make a decision and stick to it. And if you think you might be tempted to break that decision, you find ways to reduce or avoid those temptations. It is not easy to take control of your life – if I could manage it in every area myself, I would be perfect – but it is possible.

Giving up, on the basis of "I don't know why, I just do," is not an acceptable reason for destructive behavior.

How to Make it Easier:
I realise that, no matter how we "divide and conquer," some changes will still be very difficult. It seems to me that the simplest thing we can do is to stop listening to people who tell us we have no free will. We do have free will. Telling ourselves that we are weak tends to make us weak.

The Bottom Line
When we look closely at homosexuality, it looks just like any other feeling or behavior – influenced by genes, but subject to free will.

I just want to say this: I never said because someone has a baby they have found true love...in fact, I don't think that getting married makes your love wonderful or real.  REAL love, however, in my OPINION happens between a man and a woman who dedicate themsleves to one another and to God.  Marriage is a sign of this love, but obviously, as someone pointed out, divorce rates are tragically high and kids are left hanging out to dry WAY too often...and that's just horrible.

The way life/existence works is that a male and a female can "mate" and produce offspring.  In the bonds of marriage this is called starting a family, or raising a family, and I don't care what you say, in my understanding (which is obviously not your understanding) this is the way we can truly come to realize our potential.  It's obviously not this straightforward and cut and dry, but I don't have the kind of time (at least this week) to share all of my ideas, nor do I think you really want to hear them...  

I know you hate more for saying this, and I know you think I am so simpleminded and cruel for sharing my ideas about this, which is sad, I am doing so.

Thank you for your ideas and I just hope "we can all get along" in the future despite our different takes on this.

What I find truly fascinating is the fact that if one of you were to start a pro-gay thread I might chime in but I definetly wouldn't get all worked up and angry like some of you obviously have been simply because I am not really worried about what others think in the sense that I don't feel strongly compelled to "come down" on others and "preach" my beliefs.  I simply like to share ideas and opposing view points.

Understanding others view points and allowing them to speak their mind can only help you come to understand and strengthen your own view point, right?

Until next time!

Biggy-
Hey, thanks for relating your experience.  I too have had similar, if not identical feelings before exit and I understand completely.  It's SO SCARY, actually TERRIFYING at that moment and it seems literally impossible to go through with it, but then as soon as you are fully awake and alert the dissapointment comes and you see, "Dang, I have tried so long to do this I should have jsut braved through it!"

"The fear" is normal.  I can't say I am completely over it myself, but it's normal and harmless.  Just break out and, like Andrew said, just try to think positive thoughts and then break out...and you will see there is nothing to fear.

Good luck!
-Daniel

Thanks for sharing that.  I think it's amazing how OBE can be used to help us communicate with those who have passed on.  In fact, I thnk it's the natural way this occurs and I think any other way or means to attempt to communicate with the dead can lead to deception.  I am thinking specifically of spiritual mediums and that kind of thing (like the movie Ghost and some of the new tv shows)

Anyway, I think this thread is great.

I have another question for people:
What practical aspects of OBE could be helpful to society as a whole?

Could/should OBE and other spirit practices be taught in school (university level)??  Maybe even just meditation??

Goingslow asked me: "Do you think a homosexual couple couldnt experience the love you feel?"
No, don't think a homosexual couple can experience love the way a heterosexual couple can.  But I also don't think a heterosexual couple could experience the kind of love a homosexual couple does.  

I do think the kind of love a heterosexual couple feels is different and superior.  To be able to create new life which reflects the couple's love is something unparalleled by anything else.  I have not yet experienced this, but I plan on it.  Everyone with whom I have spoken with who has children has told me this.  Unfortunately, many people who have children don't feel this way, or at least don't put the amount of love and time towards rearing their children and therefore don't reap the spiritual benefits of parenthood.

Regarding the question about those who cannot have children:
My wife and I are friends with a couple who is not able to have children.  More than anything else they wanted to start a family.  They adopted two children, one of which was born to parents who abused and neglected the child.  They are so very happy with those children and I believe they will be able to rear a family of their own in the future (not in this life).

Tom I have to disagree completely with you when you say, "There are even reasons to say that the differences between men and women are not absolute."

I think they are.  I know that emotionally we can be very similar, etc. but essentially there are HUGE differences between males and females.  There always has been and there will always be so.  I, for one, believe the differences are wonderful and part of a much deeper spriitual reality and plan than we can fully comprehend in mortality.

I do think there are a variety of reasons why the lines seem to become blurry: 1)some who emphasize the differences for selfish and evil gains 2) biological anomalies: for whatever reason, and I don't pretend to understand why this is so, people are born with certain tendencies.

This is a rough sketch of deeper ideas that need to be treated more carefully and thoroughly, but I did want to share this because, in my OPINION and my reality (timeless) this is the truth.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Below is an exerpt from a discourse that I personally find very informative, especially the factual data...everything else you can discard if you like, and I provide this simply for your information:

"In contrast to our doctrinal approach, many persons approach the problems of same-sex attraction solely from the standpoint of current science. While I am not qualified as a scientist, with the aid of scientific literature and with the advice of qualified scientists and practitioners, I will attempt to refute the claim of some that scientific discoveries demonstrate that avowed homosexuals and lesbians were "born that way."

We live in a time of accelerating scientific discoveries about the human body. We know that our inheritance explains many of our physical characteristics. At the same time, we also know that our behavior is profoundly influenced by psychosocial factors such as parental and sibling relationships (especially during the formative years) and the culture in which we live. The debate over whether, or the extent to which, specific behavior is attributable to "nature" or to "nurture" is centuries old. Its application to the subject of same-sex feelings and behaviors is only one manifestation of a highly complex subject on which scientific knowledge is still in its infancy.

Some scientists deny that behavior is genetically influenced. 8 Others are advocates of evidence or theories suggesting that "there is substantial evidence for genetic influence on sexual orientation." 9

We are, of course, aware of evidence that inheritance explains susceptibilities to certain diseases like some cancers and some other illnesses like diabetes mellitus. There are also theories and some evidence that inheritance is a factor in susceptibilities to various behavior-related disorders like aggression, alcoholism, and obesity. It is easy to hypothesize that inheritance plays a role in sexual orientation. However, it is important to remember, as conceded by two advocates of this approach, that "the concept of substantial heritability should not be confused with the concept of inevitable heritability. ... Most mechanisms probably involve interactions between constitutional predispositions and environmental events." 10

Wherever they fall along the spectrum between outright rejection and total acceptance of biological determinism of sexual orientation, most scientists concede that the current evidence is insufficient and that firm conclusions must await many additional scientific studies.

A study of 56 pairs of identical male twins in which one twin classified himself as "gay" reported that 52 percent of the co-twins also classified themselves as gay. 11 A similar study of female identical twins yielded approximately the same proportion of co-twins who classified themselves as gay (34 of 71 pairs, 48 percent). 12 If these studies show some inherited influence on whatever causes a man or woman to classify himself or herself as homosexual or lesbian, it is clear that this influence is not determinative. As a prominent scientist observed, "Even the identical twin of a gay man has a 50 percent or more chance of being heterosexual—even though he has the exact same genes and is reared by the same parents." 13 We should also note that the results of these studies (and others described below) are based on the subjects' self-classifications, a shaky foundation for scientific conclusions when "there is still no universally accepted definition of homosexuality among clinicians and behavioral scientists—let alone a consensus regarding its origins." 14

In any emerging area of knowledge, a new source of evidence is most welcome. In July 1993, Dr. Dean Hamer made worldwide headlines when he announced that he had found "a statistically significant correlation between the inheritance of genetic markers [an identifiable strip of DNA] on chromosomal region Xq28 and sexual orientation in a selected group of ... homosexual men and their relatives over age 18." In other words, "it appears that Xq28 contains a gene that contributes to homosexual orientation in males." 15 Putting the most positive interpretation on his discovery, Dr. Hamer's subsequent book concludes:

"We can make only educated guesses about the importance of Xq28 in the population at large. On the high side, the region couldn't possibly influence more than 67 percent of gay men, the proportion 'linked' to this region in our highly selected group of gay siblings. On the low side, if much of homosexuality is caused by environmental factors, or by a large number of interacting genes, Xq28 could account for as little as a few percent of the variation in male sexual orientation. The median range, taken from our linkage data and from the available twin and family studies, suggests that Xq28 plays some role in about 5 to 30 percent of gay men. The broad range of these estimates is proof that much more work remains to be done." 16

"Some role in about 5 to 30 percent" of self-classified "gay" men surely falls far short of justifying the claim that science has shown that "homosexuality" is "caused by" genetic inheritance. One eminent scientist identified two of the uncertainties:

"What evidence exists thus far of innate biological traits underlying homosexuality is flawed. ... Confirmation of genetic research purporting to show that homosexuality is heritable makes clear neither what is inherited nor how it influences sexual orientation." 17

In their impressive reappraisal of biologic theories of human sexual orientation, Drs. Byne and Parsons of Columbia University's Department of Psychiatry offer these important cautions and suggestions:

"It is imperative that clinicians and behavioral scientists begin to appreciate the complexities of sexual orientation and resist the urge to search for simplistic explanations, either psychosocial or biologic.

"Conspicuously absent from most theorizing on the origins of sexual orientation is an active role of the individual in constructing his or her identity. ... We propose an interactional model in which genes or hormones do not specify sexual orientation per se, but instead bias particular personality traits and thereby influence the manner in which an individual and his or her environment interact as sexual orientation and other personality characteristics unfold developmentally." 18

This observation, but one of many suggestions from scientists, is particularly persuasive because it takes account of the vital element of individual choice that we know to be a true principle of our mortal condition."
-Dallin H. Oaks
---------------------
For what it's worth, I have been happily married for about 9 months now to my young wife Sarah and I feel myself growing and becoming more in touch with my higher self...in fact my spiritual growth has sped up significantly since she came into my life.  I feel complete with her and get glimpses into eternity and what it will be like with her...and I know there is something divine about a man and a woman coming together.  Procreation in mortality offers us insight to what the future will be like.  

If you don't see this the way I do, fine, but I thought I would offer my viewpoint.

Now that so much has been said in regards to this topic and more specifically my view, I find it very interesting and funny how so many people who proclaim to be so non-judgemental and so open minded and accepting cannot accept a point of view/opinion that is different from their own.

I posted this without any guile or need to decieve or anything like that.  I have also tried my very best to be friendly and open minded, so I don't think I reflect the plethora of idiots out there who proclaim what it right and wrong according to tradition and blind faith.  

So (and I am trying to be very logical here), judging by the way some people have said I need to act or not act, those same people should have just said, "I disagree with you for x reason (s) and I give you the right to think what you think".

Doesn't that make sense??  If we are all so worried about understanding and accepting one another, then why don't we?  I accept my friend who is gay, although it doesn't change my opinion about homosexuality and he accepts me.  So, since I accept your view, can you not accept mine?  If I were violent and/or in some way m militant about this view then I might now expect acceptance, but in this case it only seems fair, right??

Timeless- I am sorry if I misunderstood you, I tend to look at the biger picture and sometimes wax too philisophical![^]

Regarding "murder", I don't think that killing is always murder.  Murder is the shedding of innocent blood.  I am not really "for" war, but I do think killing can be justified (ouch! I can already imagine what people are going to say to that!)[]

I can say one thing which I think everyone will agree with me on:
Life is a Hard Place...a Place of Hard Life Experiences

In the end the thing that matters most is that we have tried to find truth and light and that we have tried to live by it.  Everyone will have a different and unique life and only God and us, the individual, are perfect judges...

(by the way, the reason I am posting so often is that the job I am at today allows me to be on the net![])

GoingSlow-
Relax my friend!  Seriously.  If you feel you are right then don't get so worked up and angry.  Anger only proves that you are unsettled and do not approach things with an open mind and open heart.

You wrote: "As for 'only liberal viewpoints are accepted'. As if people are only acting non homophobic to seem liberal. That was a moronic statement...deal with the topic not whether its liberal or conservative."
Ok, first of all, I never said ANYTHING about liberal or conservative viewpoints, not one thing, so I don't know where you are coming up with that.

Secondly, if you feel this topic has no importance then please ignore it.  I, however, feel that topics such as this are very important.  If homophobics would approach this with an open heart and mind then we probably wouldn't find them committing horrid acts of violence against homosexuals.


Next, I don't understand some of the things you are saying, for example: "Worry more about the content than they way things are stated."  Contnet is the things which are being stated, or in other words, the things stated make up the content.  Do you mean the "subject"?

You also said I should not have brought up this topic here and should have instead brought it up with friends.  Well, I consider a lot of the people, actually everyone, here a friend.  Just because you disagree doesn't mean I should not have posted.  I am not making irresponsible or insincere blanket statements.  I am not judging anyone and I am not bringing this up just to make controversy.  In fact I feel like I have learned more about the subject.

Lastly, the fact that you continue to use foul language is really disheartening.  I am not terribly offended by it, but some people I know would be.  This forum has always been a place of mature discussion and I don't want to see that turn into mud slinging and swearing.  

First of all i don't agree with the idea FredHed pout forth (and it doesn't sond like he believes that either).  I annot say for sure what the deja vu feeling represents, but I do have an opinion:

I think we often times see the future in our dreams or suring OBE, actually I believe a part of our soul (higher-self) knows, like God, everything (omnipresent) and I think sometimes we tap into that part of ourselves and thus we get THAT feeling which is indescribable and often times wonderful (and even scary).

I myself have had dreams which have come true and the feeling, even in the dream, was similar to deja vu.

Welcome to the forums!

-Dan

Although this may not apply to this particular topic, certain things ARE wrong and certain judgements can and should be made.  Murder is wrong.  Sexual abuse is wrong... children and other innocent beings, heck -all of us- need to protect oursleves and others from certain things.  

Like I said, homosexuality isn't one of these "black and white" things, but to say that there is no need to judge or state, unequivocaly, whether something is good or bad, right or wrong, is denying the existence of these objective principles.

James:

Please don't put words in my mouth.  My goal is to love everybody with no "ifs".  I have stated this in here and in other threads.  If you choose not to believe me, fine, but I don't think it's fair to go off saying what I do and don't feel and what I do and don't believe.  I do not and will not do this to other people, yourself included.

I do not judge people, bottom line.  I may see someone who is violent and dangerous and therefore might choose to avoid them or their company.  This might be a from of judgement, the kind of judgement one must make everyday, but as far as "you are a sinner and are going to hell" kind of judgement, NEVER.  I don't even believe in "heaven and hell".  

Thanks for you thoughts though, I can tell you are a thoughtful person and I respect that.
-----------------

I don't apologize to anyone for taking a frim stance and having beliefs in a time when it is a fad to accept anything and everything.

One more thing:
SpiritGurl, I hope I have not offended you or hurt your feelings, if I have, I apologize.  I have a very close friend who feels that he too was born with homosexual tendencies.  I love him very much and he has communicated to me what an incredibly difficult time he has had along the way.  I don't judge you nor anyone else, that is left up to God.  

Hey everyone.  I sense a lot of hatred and anger towards me because of the way I feel.  I just want you to know that I don't feel this way toward you.

...and by the way, GoingSlow, please don't use foul language in these forums.  That's one thing I feel adamant about, it degrades the high quality, respectful atmosphere of the forums.  Also, attacking my personal beliefs and belittling me (or anyone else for that matter) simply shows your lack of respect and understanding.  

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Lastly, James S, the bible is full of references to homosexuality was wrong...please look at Paul again.  I don't, however, take my stance soley because of what the Bible says.

Sorry if I am not being clear.  

Here's what I am saying:

I think homosexuality is wrong.
---------------------------------
Although that's the bottom line, I will add that I don't hate homosexuals, but I adamantly oppose same sex marriage and education regarding homosexuality, at least to children.  I also feel very sorry for anyone who is sexually perverse, including heterosexuals who engage in distasteful and/or evil practices.

I regard sexuality as a sacred thing.

THE POWER TO PROCREATE IS LIKE THE POWER TO KILL.  PROCREATION BRINGS SOULS INTO THIS WORLD AND MURDER FORCES THEM OUT OF IT.  

Spoken.