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tried creating a small silver ball once and the only thing that happened was my hand was shaking and sort of getting numb. I visualized the ball in 3D and then moved it into my hand but nothing.??
That's how it said to create it at least.


Magika_

Welcome to the forum... there are plenty articles for you to read if you really are serious about astral projection, as others have pointed out to you.

My only concern about the above quote is this sounds very much like you've been watching manga/anime movies with their far fetched stories of people firing *glowing* chi balls and bolts of lighning at eachother in the street, demon wars etc, and now you want to try this yourself...

This stuff is the bane of all serious ap users on this forum and i would suggest leaving all that stuff at the door before you come in.

If the above description is not the case then apologies in advance.

Douglas

I stumbled upon this thread and took a peek out of idle curiosity, oh dear...
I sometimes despair for my fellow AP forum users!

Is this the latest fad? You are giving the rest of us a bad name!
Once again Manga/anime has worked its wicked way with gullable folk's minds!

Just a bet, but I am guessing that '2012' and a 'demon war' is also connected with dragons in some way? I wouldnt be overly suprised... a variation of the same material  

Apologies in advance for my sceptisim of this latest fad but its always good to get another point of view in the mix.. everyone is free to believe what they like afterall, so it can't do any harm.

Douglas

Its open season for the christian missionaries on this forum! .... they will be falling over themselves in their rush to 'save' you from erring from the 'true way'...

For what its worth, you might like to look into buddhism or Hinduism.. Hinduism is great stuff!

Wicca or other branches of neo-paganism are worth a look, Wicca has a lot of similarities with Tantric doctrines, esp the male/female polarity.. this connection is probably not coincidence as it is thought that many of Gardner's early Witches were well-to-do types who had spent time in colonial India... hense the influence..
It has been repackaged in a western pagan way however and is all the better for it in my opinion.

If you want all the fun without the religious angle I would suggest Robert Monroe's work or that of Bruce Moen, both pioneers in the field of wider reality imo!

Good luck whatever you decide to look into

Douglas

Palehorse_

I hear what you are saying, but I don't find your definition very believable either, but like I say, whatever rattles your cage.

Douglas

According to the Bible God's wrath is the other side of His love

Which I've always though was utterly ridiculous, however if thats what turns you on...

who are subsumed by the Compassionate Buddha or the Cosmic Christ, or Whatever, they are certainly to be protected from the Barbaric Demons of Selfishness -- the Lucifers... the Bob Monroes!

LeoVolont_
I see you have pretty much failed completely to see where Monroe was coming from.... Try reading his books properly next time, without twisting them to fit in with your own preconceived notions...

Monroe deleted morality to engage a wider audience? What planet are you living on? It certainly isnt Earth.

Douglas

erm.. I think you are reading too much into all this... the real answer is far more simple.. I just have a lot of experience of past accounts of 'pole-shifts, energy portals, earth changes etc and have seen many such tales come and go over the years, and this one is no different.. When I say 'cynical' that wasnt quite correct, as i am not cynical in any real way,, cynicism is a disease of the mind in my opinion. however this doesnt mean I am not level headed either and I listen to my own experience... and this is what my own exprience tells me...

I just wanted to throw in an opposing viewpoint for you to mull over; but of course you are free to disagree... I can't help feeling however that at some point you will see through these stories about 'global energy shifts' etc, usually after the 50th such prediction kicks in.

Such stories are peddled for those who are desperate for things to change in some fundamental way.. the good news is that things CAN change in a fundamental way, but the change comes from within, not without.

Douglas

I'm in Edinburgh  

Whereabout did you see this creature? was it nearby?

Douglas

god, you americans are so hung up about sex!

(ok not all of you, just some of the less enlightened ones who vote republican and live in the south)  

Douglas

I live in ~Scotland (hello!), where about did this happen?

Douglas

What a load of old crap!

sorry for being cynical but I've seen all this *so* many times before, it just get boring..
I'll see you after the 12th when you can explain to me why nothing's happend.. it will be interesting to hear the latest excuse!

Douglas

Moral of the story, dont watch crap tv.. its depressing!

Have you ever watched Big Brother, X Factor.. etc and actually *felt* your brain cells corroding?

Its 'bread & circuses' as old Seneca would say..  thats all it is; they've just taken a leaf out of the Roman empire's book and updated it, keeping the masses docile and amused with pointless drivile... seems to work, people love it and they don't rebel!

Douglas

Palehorse_
Apologies, I put your name at the top of the post by mistake, I meant to put Beserk's, the originator of the first post!

No wonder you had no idea what i was talking about when i was refering to you saying stuff!!

You bring in some good points though, and to sum up, no I dont think that the two events are connected as it goes against everything I know about the astral personally and from what i've read from others.
Also, 'god' encounters of all varieties are very common. From my experience there is absolutly no way that astral encounters can have physical effects other than ones brought about psychologically i suppose, which from what i know of monoe is highly unlikely... he certainly doesnt appear to have any residual 'god guilt trip' issues lying around, in fact if anyone doesnt, its him!

Douglas

Palehorse_
I see you have been reading 'Donald's post on 'Afterlife knowledge forum'
where he brought up this point.

This line has been taken completely out of context unfortunatly, and you have to read the whole book, esp. the context of that situation to understand what was going on.

By this stage, Monroe was encountering many different individuals and other 'beings' who projected thrmselves as all manner of deity forms  from mainstream religions as well as all manner of other things you can think of.

Then one time he was confronted by what he considered a thought form, in the form of the typical OT 'god' type.  If it really was 'god' in the sense that you imagine this being to be, dont you think that monroe would be in no doubt, never mind his own sceptisism? this is 'god' after all and if he wanted you to know who he was, he is perfectly capable of doing so.. saying that it was down to Monroe sounds like a cop out to me.

I think it is telling that Monroe actually regarded this creature with amusement rather than fear or wonder.

Also it is clear from the description that this being was quite hostile, threatning Monroe on no uncertain terms.. mind you this is quite consistent with 'god' from the OT so maybe thats not suprising and tells you all you need to know about the truth of the OT account of god, not someone I'd be interested in talking to.

I also agree with Monroe that 'god' doesnt 'need' love.. you just didnt pick up what he means by that.. what he means is that you have to start thinking outside of the all to human conception of 'god' which is this guy who sits up in heaven expecting people to 'serve him' (your words) and expecting everyone to love him, like he would be upset if we didnt.
Also this idea of the god threatning and punishing individuals who didnt measure up or 'learn their lesson' is also all to human in its conception.. this image of 'god' is firmly based on the human king/subject master/slave model, where god is depicted like some kind of Roman emperor presiding over his subjects and demanding to be recognised... indeed this conception was fostered by the church developing as it did within the context of the Roman empire.

Monroe is saying that what he describes as 'god' and i use inverted commas since i dont accept the standard definition of god as you do, he is saying that this force, which is part and parcel of the universe itself and which we are made up of ourselves, does have as its ultimate expression the Prime Energy, which we call 'Love' but this is an oversimplification, however for us to move towards expressing unconditional love is the ultimate aim, this doesnt mean that te universe gets upset or angry if this isnt expressed by others, nor is 'punishment' meted out.. this is incorrect, since the universe is beyond such human needs and emotional pitfalls.

Monroe and others recomend learning to express unconditional love but at the same time you have to be practical, and while we feel sorry for those who express negativity and are aggrssive, like this 'god' figure, it is better to avoid them if at all possible or at least until you are advanced enough to engage them; you should not get upset when they attack you as in the astral such negative emotions can spiral out of all proportion.. the best advice if encountering them is to remain emotionally calm, and a feeling of light amusement is a very good weapon as this can disarm the most agressive of individuals who seek to dominate or overpower you with fear, as this being attempted to do, as monroe was suceseful in dismissing the being.


As for the vision and Monroe's death... there could be many explanations for this, other than 'proof' it was the OT god..
1) the most realistic explanation: coincidence... linking phlem/eumonia related death to a vision of lungs filling up with water/drowning is a BIG jump.. perhaps you dont have much experience with astral projection but this effect is not that uncommon and is often brought on as a form of panic response; This is my view of this.

I should point out this quote from a US medical journal to show that someone dying of this ailment is actually very common:
Pneumonia is the fifth leading cause of death in the elderly (over
65) in the U.S. ( and, presumably in other comparable countries.) It is
probably the most common primary cause of death in all progressive diseases.


Other possibilities: 2) however it may also be that this being saw a likely source of potential ilness in Monroe's makeup and used this to frighten him..
If you read monroe, you will know that beings are able to scan someone energetic makeup to find out all kinds of things about them.. perhaps this being did this..

3)another possibility was that this being inadvertanly caused this to happen through the vision, ie the vision of monroe drowning was a random thing thought up by the being but this had an unfortunate effect on monroe's energetic makeup which transfered to his body, resulting in a physical illness years later.. we had better hope this isnt true as it may suggest that obe isnt quite as safe as we though before.

In any of these cases, the scenario certainly doesnt portray 'god' in a very positive light and as I say portrays him as all too human in conception, which is what monroe saw it as, a human thought form taken form in the astral... it certainly isnt the sort of god form i'd want to associate with.. and this is what it does when it complains about not being loved??? what a psycotic.. if you want him you can keep him.. but watch your back!

What I'd recommend is instead of getting hung up on such accounts, is actually go out and get some practical experience in the astral and you will soon find that every religious conception, every deity, be it OT god, Jesus, Buddha, Zeus and more will exist in thought form somewhere, as well as every other human conception that you can think of, and even more that you cant! THEN, after experiencing this, the above accounts will become perfectly understandable, as will all the near death experiences from around the world where in every culture, where the individual involved sees 'god', (the 'god' vision doesnt always happen, it depends on how religious the person is) they see the deity in the form they expect it to be. This is perfectly consistent with the makeup of the astral.

Oh, and Monroe seems to be doing perfecly well for himself if you accept the accounts of Bruce Moen and his students, who have encountered Bob Monroe several times on their journeys since his death. He appeared on several occasions and helped them out with their explorations and gave them some hints and advice, he certainly hadnt changed his perceptions of god or human perceptions thereof.. He certainly seemed the old bob Monroe but he was operating on a much higher frequency and has now departed from the explorable levels as far as I know.

Douglas[/i]

I agree, cults are just new religions that havent grown enough to become 'mainstream'.. when a new religion arises the older established ones try their best to supress it and blacken its name, until the new faith in question becomes so great it is able to survive on its own regardless.. after a while it becomes accepted and is then called a 'religion' rather than a 'cult'. eg the Hari Krishna group are now so widespread they are gennerely regarded as a religion now, but not so long ago they were talked about as being a 'cult'. The word 'cult' should not be automatically viewed as a negative word, it is just a faith classifiaction or rather size classification.

The irony is, all the mainstream religions that like to bash cults, ALL started as cults themselves!


Christianity in its infancy was a cult and was supressed and put down by the established pagan religions; now christianity as the established religion does the same to all the new cults coming up, history shows us that the established faiths will fail in this aim.


Its amazing what you accept when you get used to it..
for example, many established religions warn of the techniques that cults use, sleep deprivation.... withdrawl from society, segregation... memorising endless lines of text and other forms of data,

where else does this happen?
try christian monesteries, nunneries etc.... all the same methods are used however its accepted so thats ok.


Of course you still get dodgy cults or dodgy branches of an otherwise respectable cult... just as you get dodgy branches of many mainstream religions.. the problem is that the 'cult bashers' try to tar them all with the same brush which is wrong.

At my university they have banned scientologists from handing out leaflets at the campus, but in an act of utter hypocracy they are quite happy to let a hard line christian nut stand outside with his bill board shouting at everyone.. you know the type, he has a long beard as he likes to think of himself as some kind of old testemant prophet and  he lives on some religious compound somewhere.... he is allowed to carry on of course.

douglas

PS about 'hell' I beleive this is self created, if you are convinced this is going to happen to you, then you will create that reality for yourself when you 'pass over' so to speak.. and it may take you a long while to get out of it..

As for 'evil', I follow Plato's line that 'evil' is an absense of good, not an outside opposing force as such.. fostered through ignorance.

I also dont think its 'nececerry' as such, rather it is an inevitatible consequence of the system but one we can try to avoid through learning.

I get you, so the 'bog standard model' for a 'minor system' is one populated planet per universe...
the only thing is, that seems like a lot of wasted space, ie we are one speck in this big physical universe, the huge size of it seems a bit of overkill if its just one populated planet in each..

mind you, perhaps this is so we have plenty breathing space... it might look massive at the moment but we might have technology very soon that allows us to settle all around the place, in which case maybe its good to have all the extra room just in case... Also, perhaps all the extra planets, stars etc may be 'raw material' as well for future projects that we may undertake as we advance... i dare say there is some logical reason for it in any case.

Very interesting findings in any case, btw I hope you sumarise some of this in your book!

Douglas

fuji257_

you re right, there is not enough on the minor roman deity to make a religion out of it, not because we dont know enough, we do, it just that there isnt much to know, he was responsible for making sure the Morning star came up every day, that's it.

Any 'religion' would have to be based on the Hebrew Satan figure, the one who eventially adopted the name Lucifer as well; this is where we get to Le Vay's satanism.. which is metaphorical rather than literal....

What the church didnt realise when they made up their devil worship/black sabbath mythology was how utterly absurd it all was..
no sane minded individual would 'give their souls to satan in return for a bit of material gain', metaphorically they might, but not in a literal sense.. how could you enjoy your gains knowing you were going to roast in hell afterwards and be used as satan's sex aid? I would challenge you to find anyone who would actually consider this who wasnt nuts.. the only ones who might were those who didnt believe it in any case, which just reinforces my point about how absurd it is.

The church liked to spread the idea that there WERE people who would consider this a good trade but there has been NO EVIDENCE of any such things taking place in recorded history, i cant emphaise this enough..
the only thing that MAY have occured is some christian accidentally bumping inot some pagan practice out in the sticks somewhere and mistaking this for 'devil worship' but thats about it..

The ONLY time we have EVER had any confirmed 'devil worship' (outside of LeVay) is within the past century thanks to the spread of hollywood movies etc and it is ALWAYS traced back to rebellious teens trying to be 'evil' or nutcases who have watched said movies and taken them as fact.

the devil worshp myth is one of the most bizarre myths ever spread by the church and is alive and well today, being peddled by the christian right, often in the shape of nightmarish satanist conspiracies to control the world.

Le Vay's philosophy has just made this a lot more complicated now thanks to his use of the term 'satanism'.. thanks mr LeVay


Douglas

just thought i'd mention before someone else does that what i said above may sound rich coming from where I live, as Scotland has quite a bad reputation for sectarianism between proddies and cathies (of course nothing like N. Ireland) but still quite bad, esp.  on the east coast Glasgow area...Celtic vs Rangers anyone?

However I wnted to point out that I'm not part of that!

Doug

Frank, when you say 'a planet each sitting in its own universe', is it your belief, at least as far as you have discovered so far, that our physical earth is the only inhabited physical planet in our system, in our time line that is?
(I'm not refering to other 'earths' in alternate timelines here, although I know what you are saying).

Or are there many other physical planets similar to ours scattered around our physical timeline universe as the seti people hope there are?

I believe Monroe spoke of these various 'learning centres' as he calls planetary civilisations, and seems to have found that in our physical universe and in our timeline, there are many physical world civilisations, our earth being one of them..
Of course as you say, if you add all the alternate timeline versions of these worlds as well then the range becomes trully mind boggling.

Douglas

concerning 'base material'.. are WE also made up of this stuff? And if 'we' created this system, do we also create each other out of it?

Well, he was a planet AND a deity, as many deities are represented by planets.
Tyciol is right, 'Lucifer' translates as 'light bearer' and was the name of a minor Roman deity, who was identified with the Morning Star, hense the name 'light bearer'. There was nothing particlularly 'evil' about him, he was just a minor deity; there is a couple of references the the quite harmless Lucifer in the poems of the Roman poet Ovid for example, dated to the late 1st centuryBC.

However there is also the hebrew diety of misrule, Satan, who only took shape in Hebrew doctrine as a personification of 'evil' in the 3rd century bc or so, due to influence from Zoarastianism.

now this character, while having no direct relation the the Roman deity, DID share a few charactersistics, hense when Christianised Romans came to write about Satan they noted the similarites and gennerly used the name Lucifer, but now to apply to this Hebrew deity.

by the end of the Roman perod, the original Roman diety had been fogotten with the Hebrew Satan figure now happily using the name 'Lucifer' for himself.


As for LeVay's satanism, i agree Satanists do not actually believe in a horned devil figure laughing it up in hell, but more as a metaphor for individualism.

I disagree with the idea that satanists are simply 'Humanists' in the modern sense. This implies that the Humanism movement champions self centred individulism and personal gain above everything else.. this is not correct and sounds more like christian propaganda.

Humanists are very concerned with morality, just as anyone else, they just believe in a secular morality, in the spirit of the best greek philosophers and modern philosophers like kant and Hume etc.

If we are being more correct here, satanism equals 'modern capatilist ideals', ie personal gain, competition, make as much money and material gain as possible, you are number one, no one else is going to look after you, you have to do it yousef, law of the jungle etc.

These are all the rules of modern western capitalist society.

The satanist simply says that rather than feel guity about this reality (which is what it is, we can wax on about ideals but the above description is about how the world actually *is* not how it 'should' be), instead we should celebrate this fact about ourselves..

There is also a warped sense of humour involved of course, since it must be known that the use of the christians satan figure is bound to annoy conservatives, and is partly the reason they use it...

In fact LeVay's satanism is not that remarkable or controversial upon examination.

I want to point out the distinction however between Satanism and the concept of 'devil worship' found in goth/nu metal and hollywood movies.

Christian conservatives havent actually got round to the fact that this is a myth.. black sabbaths etc only became written about in the 17th century, by christian monks no less.

While sporadic cases of 'real' devil worship occur today they are always traced back to rebel teens who like to try and rebel by 'worshipping satan'; the great irony is that in their urge to rebel against the christian beliefs of their parents, they actually end up *reinforcing* their parents religion, since satan is a christian figure!!!!

If they really want to rebel, why no become a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a pagan???

All this is a bit to complicated for the press and much of hollywood unfortunalty, which is where most christian conservatives get their information from!

Douglas

I dont accept this. yes the catholic church equate 'occult' with 'evil' but then so do all branches of christianity, with protestantism being no different. Its sad that yet another debate has been subverted to once again attack the catholic church. As I have said before, I am not christian so I dont have a factional agenda here, but i find the whole protesent/catholic antagonism extremelly tiresome.

What annoys me even more is when I read some artcle which pretends to be an objective and critical discussion of christianity in general, only to find that the article has a secret agenda and is actually a protestant attack on catholism, a tediously common occurance, esp in the US.

Douglas

No I haven't heard of it. Do they still have any books that have the precise rituals or have they been lost (probably burned in the library at Alexandria)...?



I think many of the rituals have been preserved within in the 'Corpus Hermeticum' of body of hermetic lore that survived christian prohibition, and the tragic lose of the Library of alexandria,  preserved in many cases secretly by Christian monks funnily enough! and was transmitted to the middle-ages and from there to the various modern western mystery schools, like the Golden Dawn etc.

However I am not sure if it is just the basic outline that survived or the presise details.

Concerning Hermetism:
Hermetisism/gnostism differs from eastern traditions however as it isnt pantheistic as such more kind of a mix of monotheism AND polytheism, wherin there is a trancendent One above all knowledge but this manifests itself down a 'chain of being' in a pyramid right down to our level, manifesting as all the various gods, spirits etc... a favourite line is that 'the One manifests itself in diversity'.

It probably wouldnt take much to shift the trancendent 'One' to a pantheistic 'Brahman' interpretation mind you, and in my view would reconcile the two philosophies.. perhaps this has been done already. This is pretty much the view of modern neo-paganism.

excellent post Frank, and thanks everyone else for replying as well, very interesting..

I have had a heart to heart with myself over the last day or so and I have to admit it (there is no point in denying this to myself any longer) that there is still a vestage of fear lingering somewhere inside. It is not doubt.

I have up until now been in denial of this since I liked to think of myself as past that stage, but in truth this is not the case.

The problem of why my lucidity levels are always just that bit below par is due to the 'saftety mechanism'. my lucidity stays at just below that point, above which I would have 100% of my faculties and therefore 100& awareness of whats going on.. in that situation I still freak slightly and zap back.
This is why I keep getting zapped back, my lucidity 'tests the waters' every now and then and rises slightly, but it gets to the cut-off point where I gain an almost full realisation of whats going on and fear zaps me back.

I have made progress however and perhaps I just need time to get more used to non physical reality.. I have had some striking experiences already, such as the 'green fields' experience where I believe I contacted my 'astral family' or other significant people.
The fear issue is ingrained and therefore a long term issue, I probably shouldnt let it worry me too much but just let it fade bit by bit over time..

Douglas

PS I will try the affirmation.. that sounds like a good idea

kalratri_

Interesting.. thanks for the input...
I love that term 'idolatry' though as it still carries negative connotations due to middle-eastern hangups.. although I shed that one a while back.

The idea actually comes about from a complete failure to understand how statues and other representations of deities actually function, both in classical religion and in eastern traditions.

I was at a classical art class recently and the lecturer was tring to explain this concept to people some of whom couldnt grasp it... No the greeks didnt actually think the statue was a physical likeness of the deity or WAS the deity.. the attributes of the statue were a kind of code. a symbolism for the properties/functions that the deity possessed. Furthermore, the perfection and beauty of a particlular statue, while reflecting the gift of the artist, more importantly served as an echo, a reminder of the divine beauty of the deity, even although the sculptural beauty was not related to the divine beauty.. it brings us closer to it however..

The monotheists didnt get this however... although funnily enough in some christian denomenations (Catholic and Orthodox for example) icons are ok, even when they fulfil the same function! but there you go..

Doug

PS kalratri, have you heard of 'theurgy'? this was a form of mysticism/magick performed in Roman times and one of the practices was the creating of specialised statues that could be the recepticles of the gods.. this might be accomplished by placing special herbs or other materials associated the the god inside the statue or special prayers etc.. the god in question is then able to inhabit that statue or focus on it in some way, allowing a more direct connection with worshippers... It sounds a bit like the eastern practice you describe..
I have to add however that this practice was only conducted by specialists and was in no way a common practice amongst most pagans in the ancient world.

The last time I became lucid in a dream I dismissed my immediate enviroment by placing a desire to go 'higher' as it were. I found myself in a lift that was going up... (I didnt conciously think of this but what a great way to envisage the process of focusing on a higher level!)

Anyway it didnt work because when I got out of the lift i was back in the same lucid dream locale again... oh well!
Anyway, I was fine for a while then I felt that irritating pull back to physical wakefullness... I always get this before I can do anything meaningfull.

However this time i managed to resist the first surge of this pull by grabbing onto a banister and holding on for dear life.. after a few moments I found to my delight that the pull lessoned and vanished and I was free to carry on! This is the first time I have been able to resist the pull...yeah!

But then a few minutes later it came back and this time I couldnt resist it...
whats going on? I wasnt frightened and there didnt seem to be any bodily functions to bring me back.... was my failure simply a lack of will?
Perhaps I just need to practice resistance and 'holding on' when this occurs.
Any tips to keep focused are appreciated....

On another point has anyone came across this phenomenom:

Upon getting the 'astral screen effect' (focus 21?) Sometimes I find that the scenes are switching at a phenomenal rate too quickly to be able to focus on anything... i have noticed that it is conected with my thought processes, ie my mind is whirring round so fast that the astral screen is doing likewise...
its probably to do with the fact that I am so excited about getting this effect that my mind is flying through countless thoughts of where to go what I should do etc... the screen looks like its doing 5000 frames a second all with different scenes!

I guess the idea is to slow your thought processes down but I have found this impossible.. if you wake up in such a state you might as well quit that time round.. unless anyone has any tips for slooooowing down!


Doug

For the past few years I have listened to women who have been involved in various women's empowerment programs based on the concept of a return to the Matriarchal Society.


The problem is however, that there was NEVER a 'matriarchal society' which was then usurped by a 'patriarchal' one; this is complete myth. There was never a matriarchal society the way some Wiccans and others argue, this is a feminist myth that has been totally debunked in recent years.

Yes earth mothers and goddesses WERE reveared throughout the ancient world but in all ancient systems we find NO evidence that the matriarchal deities were exclusive or held ABOVE male deities, at least not on a widespread basis. You might just get away with an odd case but even then the evidence is almost non existent.

Rather, in ancient systems divinity was more balanced with male and female deities representing different aspects of the divine world.

I would agree with the argument that with the coming of christianity and later islam, this equal balance of male and female elements of the divine has been knocked off course and replaced with a firmly patriarchal system, this is indeed the case and I would say that Judaism, the ancsestor or christianity and Islam, is to blame for this.

But there is just no evidence for a universal matriarchal system that is basically the exact opposite of the patriarchal one we have now...
The reality is more that there was once a balanced system but this was replaced by a male orientated one.
I think most sensible wiccans and most feminists accept this fact nowadays, but you still get the old hard core who refuse to accept the facts.

Douglas