Messages

"There are a lot of sexually unhealthy people in this world (hetero and homo alike). You just have to go on the internet to see the MASSIVE very sad heterosexual market there is...even for kiddy porn"

-WELL SAID Timeless.  I wholeheartedly agree.  I am not trying to pick on anyone here.  In fact, MJ-12, please don't get defensive...lile Timeless said, we are just here to share opinions and exhange ideas, that's the point of a place like this.

MJ-12, to answer the your new question of how homosexuals should be treated: with love.  It's that simple.  I try to love everyone, I really do.  Does that mean I agree with what everyone does?  No.

I think the family is one of the most important things.  Face it, if it weren't for a man and woman getting together, none of us would be here, right?

I think God and Heavenly Mother teach us a great deal about them and ourselves through marriage and family.

Finally, cainam brings up a good point.  I am a teacher and I don't share my personal views about spirituality and sex in the classroom and I don't especially don't want others doing this.  I believed otherwise I would go teach in a private school.

Don't worry, I'm not "ticked off"...in fact I too have been trying to avoid the topic, but you know what I mean, people are going to talk about this for a long time.  With that said, I hope it all ends ASAP so we can move on.
-Dan

Thanks for the links, I'll check it out.

The following is from the Family Research Council
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Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse
Timothy J. Dailey, Ph.D.
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Scandals involving the sexual abuse of under-age boys by homosexual priests have rocked the Roman Catholic Church. At the same time, defenders of homosexuality argue that youth organizations such as the Boy Scouts should be forced to include homosexuals among their adult leaders. Similarly, the Gay Lesbian and Straight Education Network (GLSEN), a homosexual activist organization that targets schools, has spearheaded the formation of "Gay-Straight Alliances" among students. GLSEN encourages homosexual teachers -- even in the youngest grades -- to be open about their sexuality, as a way of providing role models to "gay" students. In addition, laws or policies banning employment discrimination based on "sexual orientation" usually make no exception for those who work with children or youth.

Many parents have become concerned that children may be molested, encouraged to become sexually active, or even "recruited" into adopting a homosexual identity and lifestyle. Gay activists dismiss such concerns -- in part, by strenuously insisting that there is no connection between homosexuality and the sexual abuse of children.

However, despite efforts by homosexual activists to distance the gay lifestyle from pedophilia, there remains a disturbing connection between the two. This is because, by definition, male homosexuals are sexually attracted to other males. While many homosexuals may not seek young sexual partners, the evidence indicates that disproportionate numbers of gay men seek adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. In this paper we will consider the following evidence linking homosexuality to pedophilia:

Pedophiles are invariably males: Almost all sex crimes against children are committed by men.

Significant numbers of victims are males: Up to one-third of all sex crimes against children are committed against boys (as opposed to girls).

The 10 percent fallacy: Studies indicate that, contrary to the inaccurate but widely accepted claims of sex researcher Alfred Kinsey, homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population.

Homosexuals are overrepresented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3 percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children.

Some homosexual activists defend the historic connection between homosexuality and pedophilia: Such activists consider the defense of "boy-lovers" to be a legitimate gay rights issue.

Pedophile themes abound in homosexual literary culture: Gay fiction as well as serious academic treatises promote "intergenerational intimacy."

Male Homosexuals Commit A Disproportionate Number of Child Sex Abuse Cases
Homosexual apologists admit that some homosexuals sexually molest children, but they deny that homosexuals are more likely to commit such offenses. After all, they argue, the majority of child molestation cases are heterosexual in nature. While this is correct in terms of absolute numbers, this argument ignores the fact that homosexuals comprise only a very small percentage of the population.

The evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. To demonstrate this it is necessary to connect several statistics related to the problem of child sex abuse: 1) men are almost always the perpetrator; 2) up to one-third or more of child sex abuse cases are committed against boys; 3) less than three percent of the population are homosexuals. Thus, a tiny percentage of the population (homosexual men), commit one-third or more of the cases of child sexual molestation.

Men Account for Almost All Sexual Abuse of Children Cases
An essay on adult sex offenders in the book Sexual Offending Against Children reported: "It is widely believed that the vast majority of sexual abuse is perpetrated by males and that female sex offenders only account for a tiny proportion of offences. Indeed, with 3,000 adult male sex offenders in prison in England and Wales at any one time, the corresponding figure for female sex offenders is 12!" 1
Kee MacFarlane, et al., writing in Sexual Abuse of Young Children: Evaluation and Treatment report: "The large majority of sexual perpetrators appear to be males (Herman & Hirschman, 1981; Lindholm & Willey, 1983)." 2
A report by the American Professional Society on the Abuse of Children states: "In both clinical and non-clinical samples, the vast majority of offenders are male." 3
A study in the Journal of Sex Research states that "pedophilia does not exist, or is extremely rare, in women." 4
A Significant Percentage of Child Sexual Abuse Victims are Boys
According to the Journal of Child Psychiatry: "It was commonly believed fifteen years ago that girls were abused in excess of boys in a ratio of about 9 to 1, but contemporary studies now indicate that the ratio of girls to boys abused has narrowed remarkably. . . . The majority of community studies suggest a . . . ratio . . . in the order of 2 to 4 girls to 1 boy." 5 Another study found that "some authors now believe that boys may be sexually abused as commonly as girls (Groth, 1978; O'Brien, 1980)." 6
A study of 457 male sex offenders against children in Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy found that "approximately one-third of these sexual offenders directed their sexual activity against males." 7
Sexual Abuse of Boys is Underreported
The actual percentage of child sexual abuse victims who are boys very likely exceeds the above estimates. Many researchers echo the view of the Journal of Child Psychiatry study, which refers to the "under-reporting of the incidence and prevalence of sexual abuse in boys." 8

Dr. Robert Johnson, in Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, reports: "The vast majority of cases of male sexual molestation is not reported. As a result, these young men keep both the incidents and their feelings to themselves." 9
The Department of Justice report on child sexual exploitation explains why the percentage of boy victims is underestimated: "Adolescent boy victims are highly likely to deny certain types of sexual activity. . . . They are embarrassed and ashamed of their behavior and rightfully believe that society will not understand their victimization. . . . No matter what the investigator does, most adolescent boys will deny they were victims." 10
The Journal of Child Psychiatry adds: "Boys are usually encultured into an ethos where self-reliance, independence and sexual prowess are valued, while showing hurt or homosexuality are denigrated. . . . This may lead to powerful repression or deletion of the experience, with failure to report." 11
Homosexuals Comprise Less than 3 Percent of the Population
Relying upon three large data sets: the General Social Survey, the National Health and Social Life Survey, and the U.S. census, a recent study in Demography estimates the number of exclusive male homosexuals in the general population at 2.5 percent, and the number of exclusive lesbians at 1.4 percent. 12

A study of the sexual behavior of men in the United States based on the National Survey of Men (a nationally representative sample comprised of 3,321 men aged twenty to thirty-nine, published in Family Planning Perspectives), found that "2 percent of sexually active men aged twenty to thirty-nine . . . had had any same-gender sexual activity during the last ten years. Approximately 1 percent of the men (1.3 percent among whites and 0.2 percent among blacks) reported having had exclusively homosexual activity. 13
 J. Gordon Muir, writing in The Wall Street Journal, discusses a number of studies that have found that homosexuals comprise between 1 to 3 percent of the population. 14
In a survey of studies on homosexuals in different populations, the Archives of Sexual Behavior reported a random sample of Hawaii State residents interviewed by telephone. The study found "just about 3 percent of males and 1.2 percent of females as having engaged in same-sex or bisexual activity." 15 However, this relatively higher number is attributed to the fact that the study was not limited to exclusive homosexuals, but included all those who at some time in their lives engaged in same-sex activities. 16
Homosexual Pedophiles are Vastly Overrepresented in Child Sex Abuse Cases
Homosexual pedophiles sexually molest children at a far greater rate compared to the percentage of homosexuals in the general population. A study in the Journal of Sex Research found, as we have noted above, that "approximately one-third of [child sex offenders] had victimized boys and two-thirds had victimized girls." The authors then make a prescient observation: "Interestingly, this ratio differs substantially from the ratio of gynephiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature females) to androphiles (men who erotically prefer physically mature males), which is at least 20 to 1." 17

In other words, although heterosexuals outnumber homosexuals by a ratio of at least 20 to 1, homosexual pedophiles commit about one-third of the total number of child sex offenses.

Similarly, the Archives of Sexual Behavior also noted that homosexual pedophiles are significantly overrepresented in child sex offence cases:

The best epidemiological evidence indicates that only 2 to 4 percent of men attracted to adults prefer men (ACSF Investigators, 1992; Billy et al., 1993; Fay et al., 1989; Johnson et al., 1992); in contrast, around 25 to 40 percent of men attracted to children prefer boys (Blanchard et al., 1999; Gebhard et al., 1965; Mohr et al., 1964). Thus, the rate of homosexual attraction is 6 to 20 times higher among pedophiles." 18

The stark imbalance between homosexual and heterosexual child molestations was confirmed in the Archives of Sexual Behavior study itself, which divided 260 pedophile participants into three groups: "152 heterosexual pedophiles (men with offenses or self-reported attractions involving girls only), 43 bisexual pedophiles (boys and girls), and 65 homosexual pedophiles (boys only)." 19 In other words, 25 percent of the offenders were homosexual pedophiles -- or 41 percent if those who molest girls as well as boys are included.

Other studies report an unusually high percentage of child molestations by homosexual pedophiles:

A study on pedophilia in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa reported: "According to the literature, findings of a two-to-one ratio of heterosexual to homosexual pedophiles have been documented." 20
The Journal of Sex Research reports a study that included "199 offenders against female children and 96 offenders against male children. . . . This would indicate a proportional prevalence of 32 percent of homosexual offenders against children." 21
A study of male child sex offenders in Child Abuse and Neglect found that fourteen percent targeted only males, and a further 28 percent chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42 percent of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation. 22
Are Men Who Molest Boys Really 'Homosexuals'?
Gay Apologists Insist on a Simplistic Stereotype of Pedophilia
Central to the attempts to separate homosexuality from pedophilia is the claim that pedophiles cannot, by definition, be considered homosexuals. Relying upon a questionable methodology 23, the gay advocacy organization Human Rights Campaign published a "Fact Sheet on Sexual Orientation and Child Abuse," that states: "A sexual abuser who molests a child of the same sex is usually not considered homosexual." 24

The basis for this claim is the view that pedophiles who molest boys cannot be considered homosexual if that individual has at any time been married or sexually involved with women.

'Homosexual Pedophiles': A Clinical Term
The fact is, however, that the terms "homosexual" and "pedophile" are not mutually exclusive: they describe two intersecting types of sexual attraction. Webster's Dictionary defines "homosexual" as someone who is sexually attracted to persons of the same sex. "Pedophile" is defined as "an adult who is sexually attracted to young children." The former definition refers to the gender of the desired sexual object, while the latter refers to the age of the desired sexual object.

A male "homosexual pedophile," then, is defined as someone who is generally (but not exclusively, see below) sexually attracted to boys, while a female "homosexual pedophile" is sexually attracted to girls. 25

The term "homosexual pedophile" was first used in the early 20th century by the Viennese psychiatrist Dr. Richard von Krafft-Ebing, who pioneered the systematic study of sexual deviance. Krafft-Ebing described pedophiles as heterosexually, homosexually or bisexually oriented. 26 This division has been accepted by pedophiles themselves, 27 and is well attested in the literature:

A study of child molesters in Behavior Research and Therapy found that "a homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these offenders." 28
The Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy published a study on the same topic, which discussed "the proportional prevalences of heterosexual and homosexual pedophilia." 29 The study commented on a study that found that "the percentage of the homosexual pedophiles would be 45.8." Even adjusted downward for exhibitionists, "this would still indicate a much higher percentage (34 percent) of homosexuals among pedophiles than among men who prefer physically mature partners." 30
In a review of studies on pedophilia, the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa concluded: "The findings of previous studies report that pedophiles can be divided into heterosexual and homosexual pedophiles according to their erotic preference. . . . This was confirmed in this recent study." 31 The article classified homosexual pedophilia into three types: the socially inadequate homosexual pedophile, the intrusive homosexual pedophile, and the undifferentiated homosexual pedophile. 32
A study of pedophiles in Behavior Research and Therapy concluded: "The second, and perhaps the most important observation we made, is that a homosexual and a heterosexual subgroup can be delineated among these offenders. . . . Categorizing them in this way revealed important differences in the pattern of their sexual preferences." 33
The International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology refers to homosexual pedophiles as a "distinct group." The victims of homosexual pedophiles "were more likely to be strangers, that they were more likely to have engaged in paraphiliac behavior separate from that involved in the offence, and that they were more likely to have past convictions for sexual offences. . . . Other studies [showed a] greater risk of reoffending than those who had offended against girls" and that the "recidivism rate for male-victim offenders is approximately twice that for female-victim offenders." 34
Homosexuals and Homosexual Pedophiles Engage in a Wide Variety of Sexual Behavior that Belies Simplistic Categories
Despite this evidence, in their efforts to divorce homosexuality from pedophilia, homosexual apologists insist on a rigid, narrow definition of the terms "homosexual" and "pedophile" that permits no overlap of the terms. They deny that homosexuals are attracted in inordinate numbers to boys. They also claim that pedophiles cannot be classified as "homosexual" if at any time they have had sexual relations with women.

However, such a narrow definition does not do justice to the complex nature of pedophilia. Researchers have long been aware that pedophiles exhibit a wide variety of sexual attractions and behavior -- often to draw attention away from their primary lust for boys. A study on sex offenders in the International Journal of Offender Therapy and Comparative Criminology notes that "the reason child sexual abusers are successful at remaining undetected is because they do not fit a stereotype." 35

The data indicates that both homosexuality and pedophilia are intersecting categories that admit to a wide variety of sexual behavior:

Homosexual Males are Sexually Attracted to Underage Boys
A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that homosexual men are attracted to young males. The study compared the sexual age preferences of heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, and lesbians. The results showed that, in marked contrast to the other three categories, "all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories," which included males as young as age fifteen. 36
In The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, the authors report data showing that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys sixteen to nineteen years of age or younger." 37

Conversely, Homosexual Pedophiles are Often Attracted to Adult Males
A study of sex offenders against male children in Behavior Research and Therapy found that male homosexual pedophiles are sexually attracted to "males of all ages." Compared to non-offenders, the offenders showed "greater arousal" to slides of nude males as old as twenty-four: "As a group, the child molesters responsed [sp] with moderate sexual arousal . . . to the nude males of all ages." 38

A study of Canadians imprisoned for pedophilia in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence noted that some of the adult male offenders engaged in homosexual acts with adult males. 39
Many pedophiles, in fact, consider themselves to be homosexual. A study of 229 convicted child molesters in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that "eighty-six percent of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual." 40
Fr. John Harvey, founder and director of Courage, a support ministry for Catholics who struggle with same-sex attraction, explains that "the pedophile differs from the ordinary homosexual in that the former admires boyishness in the object of his affections, while the latter admires manliness." 41 However, the categories are not completely separate:

While granting that the majority of homosexuals are not aroused by young boys, the distinction between homosexuality and homosexual pedophilia is not quite absolute. In some cases the interest oscillates between young adolescents and adults, in others between boys and adolescents; in exceptional cases a man may be interested in boys at one time and adults at another. 42

Many Pedophiles are Attracted to Women, Marry, and Have Children
Gay activists insist that pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality because pedophiles are only sexually interested in children, whereas homosexuals only have sexual relations with adults. We have already seen that this stereotypical view is not correct with regard to homosexuals. There is also abundant evidence demonstrating that, while primarily interested in children, pedophiles nevertheless exhibit a wide variety of sexual behaviors, including relationships with women:

A study in Child Abuse and Neglect found that 48 percent of the offenders either were married or had been married at some time. 43
The Journal of Interpersonal Violence studied the sexual preferences of male pedophiles who sexually abused children. When they compared the sexual response of the pedophiles with the control group, they found, unexpectedly: "Surprisingly, the two groups did not differ in their response to the nude female stimuli." 44
A study in the Psychiatric Journal of the University of Ottawa reported that "most of the middle-aged pedophiles have had significant adult sexual activity." 45 Fifty-eight percent of the pedophiles in one study had at least one child, while other research indicated that "more than two-thirds of the married pedophiles in their sample had children, with an average of two to three children per subject." 46
A report by the Department of Justice addressed the devious stratagems of pedophiles, who will go to great lengths to conceal their true desires: "Preferential sex offenders may be 'pillars of the community' and are often described as 'nice guys.' They almost always have a means of access to children (for example, through marriage, neighborhood, or occupation.)" 47
Thus, the evidence shows that homosexual pedophiles cannot be narrowly defined as individuals who are solely attracted to underage boys. In fact there is considerable overlap between homosexuality and pedophilia.

Pedophilia in Gay Culture
The Historical Connection between Pedophilia and the Gay Rights Movement
David Thorstad is a homosexual activist and historian of the gay rights movement. 48 He is a former president of New York's Gay Activists Alliance (GAA), a prototype activist group founded in December 1969. The GAA at its inception opposed age of consent laws, which prohibited adults from having sex with children. 49 Thorstad is also a pedophile and founding member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).

Thorstad argues that there is a natural and undeniable connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. He expresses bitterness that the gay rights movement has, in his view, abandoned pedophilia. Thorstad writes: "Boy-lovers were involved in the gay movement from the beginning, and their presence was tolerated. Gay youth groups encouraged adults to attend their dances. . . . There was a mood of tolerance, even joy at discovering the myriad of lifestyles within the gay and lesbian subculture." 50

The inaugural issue of the Gay Community News in 1979 published a "Statement to the Gay Liberation Movement on the Issue of Man/Boy Love," which challenged the movement to return to a vision of sexual liberation. It argued that "the ultimate goal of gay liberation is the achievement of sexual freedom for all -- not just equal rights for 'lesbian and gay men,' but also freedom of sexual expression for young people and children."

In the early years there was some reluctance to accept pedophilia, primarily among feminist and lesbian activist groups. In March 1979 the Lesbian Feminist Liberation (LFL) accusing "so-called Man/Boy Lovers" of "attempting to legitimize sex between children and adults. . . . Feminists easily recognize this as the latest attempt to make palatable the sexual exploitation of children." The coalition went on record as opposing "the sexual abuse of children by heterosexual or homosexual persons." 51

Despite this opposition, Thorstad claims that by 1985 homosexual pedophiles had won acceptance within the gay movement. He cites Jim Kepner, then curator of the International Gay and Lesbian Archives in Los Angeles: "A point I've been trying to make is that if we reject the boylovers in our midst today we'd better stop waving the banner of the Ancient Greeks, of Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Oscar Wilde, Walt Whitman, Horatio Alger, and Shakespeare. We'd better stop claiming them as part of our heritage unless we are broadening our concept of what it means to be gay today." 52

In 1985 nambla was admitted as a member in New York's council of Lesbian and Gay Organizations as well as the International Gay Association -- now the International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA). In the mid-1990's ilga's association with nambla and other pedophile groups cost the organization it's status as a Non-Governmental Organization in the United Nations.

ilga's renewed attempt to gain admittance to the UN was rejected again in April 2002 because the organization "did not document that it had purged pedophile groups such as [NAMBLA]." The Washington Times reports that Ishtiag H. Anrabi, Pakistani delegate to the UN Economic and Social Council, expressed concern that ilga was continuing to be secretive about ties with pedophile groups: "For more than a year, the ilga has refused to provide documentation or allow review of its membership list to demonstrate that pedophilia groups have been expelled." 53

Pedophile Themes Abound in Gay Literature
The late "beat" poet Allen Ginsberg illustrates the seamless connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. Many know Ginsberg as an illustrious "out" homosexual poet: fewer are aware that he was also a pedophile.

Biographer Raymond-Jean Frontain refers to Ginsberg's publications in both nambla Bulletin and nambla Journal. He discusses how Ginsberg's biographers failed to discuss his poems that contained pederastic themes:

Although both Shumacher and Barry Miles (Ginsberg's initial biographer) frankly discuss Ginsberg's sexual politics, neither refers to his involvement with the controversial North American Man/Boy Love Association. . . . I reread Collected Poems and Ginsberg's two subsequent collections, surprised by the pattern of references to anal intercourse and to pederasty that emerged. 54

Ginsberg was one of the first of a growing number of homosexual writers who cater to the fascination with pedophilia in the gay community. Mary Eberstadt, writing in the Weekly Standard, documents how the taboo against sex with children continues to erode -- with the impetus coming from homosexual writers. 55

Revealingly, the examples she provides of pedophilia in current literature come from gay fiction. Eberstadt cites the Village Voice, which states that "Gay fiction is rich with idyllic accounts of 'intergenerational relationships,' as such affairs are respectfully called these days." 56 Other examples of pedophilia-themed gay fiction include:

In the introduction of the "mainstream" homosexual anthology Penguin Book on International Gay Writing, David Leavitt notes matter-of-factly that "Another 'forbidden' topic from which European writers seem less likely to shrink is the love of older men for young boys." Leavitt praises one book with a pedophilic theme included in the anthology as a "coolly assured narrative [which] compels the reader to imagine the world from a perspective he might ordinarily condemn." 57
Several texts included in another anthology, The Gay Canon: Great Books Every Gay Man Should Read, feature scenes of man-boy sex. One such book is praised as "an operatic adventure into the realms of love, personality, ambition and art . . . a pure joy to read." The protagonist is "a pedophile's dream: the mind of a man in the body of a boy." 58 Another novel which includes graphic descriptions of sexual violence against boys is said to "[tear] straight to the heart of one of the greatest sources, community-wide, of 1990's gay angst: What to do with men who love boys?" 59
Yet another anthology of homosexual fiction, A History of Gay Literature: The Male Tradition, published by Yale University Press, includes "a longish chapter on 'Boys and Boyhood' which is a seemingly definitive account of pro-pedophile literary works." 60 The author appears more concerned with the feelings and emotions of the man than with his boy victim. He explores the question of "whether or not you regard [having sex with boys] as a way of retreating from life or, on the contrary, as a way of engaging with it at its most honest and least corrupted level." 61
A significant percentage of books that have appeared on the Gay Men's Press fiction bestseller list contain pedophilia themes, including:

Some Boys: described as a "memoir of a lover of boys" that "evokes the author's young friends across four decades." 62

For a Lost Soldier: the story of a sexual relationship between a soldier and an eleven-year-old boy, set during World War II. 63

A Good Start, Considering: yet another story about an eleven-year-old boy (!) who suffers sexual abuse but is rescued by a teenager who "offers him love and affection" 64

Terre Haute: billed as "A poetic novel of sexual awakening in the American Midwest, tracing an adolescent's journey from introspection to perilous desire."

Shiva and Arun: the story of two Indian adolescents who "discover early on the joys of sex."

Teardrops on My Drum: barefoot kids in 1920's Liverpool search for "adventure, love and sex."

Pro-pedophilia Publications

Recent years have seen the appearance of publications that lend a scholarly veneer to the fascination with pedophilia in the gay community. Such publications attempt to make the case for "intergenerational intimacy." The nation's largest gay publisher, Alyson Publications, which distributes Daddy's Roommate and other homosexual books that promote homosexuality to children, publishes books advocating man-boy sex, including:

Paedophilia: The Radical Case, which contains detailed information on how to engage in sexual relations with young boys. 65

The Age Taboo, another defense of pedophilia which claims: "Boy-lovers . . . are not child molesters. The child abusers are . . . parents who force their staid morality onto the young people in their custody." 66

Speaking in tongues
Are tongues the initial evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit?
Evidences pointing to tongues being the initial evidence
Tongues were obviously significantly associated with the Holy Spirit's initializing of the believer into the new covenant of Christ, as illustrated at Pentecost (Acts 2) and in Cornelius' home (Acts 10), and also probably in Samaria (Acts and Ephesus (Acts 19).

(Acts 2:4 NIV)  All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

(Acts 10:45-46 NIV)  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. {46} For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,

(Acts 19:6 NIV)  When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

(Acts 8:17-18 NIV)  Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. {18} When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

The passage above does not mention tongues. However, it is probable that tongues or at least some kind of visible evidence is involved. This is because the passage says that Simon "saw" that the Spirit was given.

Evidences pointing to tongues not being the initial evidence
OT instances of filling by the Holy Spirit not accompanied by tongues
The experience of receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was not a new experience. It is the start of a new era in which the Spirit will be poured out more abundantly on all flesh. Peter explains that it is fulfillment of the prophesy in Joel which says that the Spirit will be poured on all people, young and old, men and women, even servants. In the Old Testament, this was not the case. The Spirit fell on key persons, empowering them to carry out the special office of God e.g. kings, prophets.

(Acts 2:17-18 NIV)  "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. {18} Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.

In the past, only a few selected ones are filled with the Spirit and empowered for certain tasks. While these people of the OT times were filled and empowered by the Spirit, there was no evidence of tongues.

Charismatics response

Tongues are the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit only in the New Testament period.

No evidence of Paul speaking in tongues when he first received the Holy Spirit
(Acts 9:17-19 NIV)  Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." {18} Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, {19} and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.

Paul later spoke in tongues (1 Cor 14:18) but that was not the initial evidence; it was the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Why did Paul not speak in tongues when he first received the Holy Spirit? It could be because there was no need for it. Tongues serve as a sign. In the instances when the people spoke in tongues, it either served as a sign to non-believers (Acts 2) or to other believers that the ones who spoke in tongues really received the Holy Spirit and were part of them.

Tongues are described as a gift
We know that in the Corinthian church not everyone speaks in tongues.

(1 Cor 12:29-30 NIV)  Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? {30} Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?

The reason why some do not speak in tongues was not because some were not baptized in the Holy Spirit but rather some were not given that gift by the Spirit.

(1 Cor 12:4-11 NIV)  There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. {5} There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. {6} There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. {7} Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. {8} To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, {9} to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, {10} to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. {11} All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Furthermore, it is the Spirit's choice to give whomsoever He wants the ability to speak in tongues. There is no mention whatsoever of speaking in tongues being an inevitable outcome of having been baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Are tongues always human languages?
There are many instances when tongues are real languages that man can understand.

(Acts 2:4-6 NIV)  All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. {5} Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. {6} When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.

(Acts 10:45-46 NIV)  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. {46} For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

The fact that the Apostles understood the Gentiles tongues to be magnifying God indicated that the tongues were a know language to the Apostles.

However, there are also tongues that are not human languages.

(1 Cor 13:1 NIV)  If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

There are tongues of angels that man will not be able to understand.

(1 Cor 14:2 NIV)  For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

Different purposes of tongues
The argument between Charismatics and non-Charismatics on what is the purpose of tongues can be simply solved if one realizes that there are more than one purpose of tongues.

Act as a sign to unbelievers
(1 Cor 14:21-22 NIV)  In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord. {22} Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers...

Tongues are a sign to unbelievers because when they hear the message proclaimed in their own tongues by someone who does not speak that language, it is a miraculous sign that it is God speaking through them.

(Acts 2:6-11 NIV)  When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. {7} Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? {8} Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? {9} Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, {10} Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome {11} (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

(Acts 10:45-46 NIV)  The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. {46} For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

God also used tongues to convince unbelieving Christian Jews that the Gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit, and that they ought to be welcomed as equals into the Church. Without tongues, the apostles would not have been convinced that the Gentiles could be saved.

When tongues are used for this purpose, it is very specific. That means that there may be long periods of time when this type of tongues cease to exist.

Acts 11:15. "As I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

The outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Cornelius' house occurred eight years after Pentecost, yet Peter could not point to any continuous flow of tongues for this purpose among the churches, when he explained to the Jerusalem church leaders what had happened to the Gentiles. After eight years, Peter still had to say "As on us at the beginning", not "as on all the churches regularly". If speaking in tongues in a known language was a normal experience in churches, Peter would not have had to reach back to Pentecost to cite a similar example.

Edifying of oneself
Besides serving as "signs", there are other purposes of tongues that do not involve "signs to unbelievers".

Paul refers to the Christians speaking in tongues without interpretation in a church. Because the tongues are unknown, they do not communicate anything to people and do not serve as signs.

(1 Cor 14:2 NIV)  For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.

The purpose of this type of tongues is not to serve as signs but rather to edify the speaker.

(1 Cor 14:4 NIV)  He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.



Edifying of the church
Tongues that are accompanies by interpretation edifies the church.

(1 Cor 14:5 NIV)  I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

Well, I guess it's my turn.

First of all I want to say how much I admire those who chose to share their thoughts up to this point.  I admire how accepting and understanding you are and although I definetly disagree with some of the things which have been said here, I do agree that all people need to be respected as long as what they are doing does not infringe on the rights of others.

Answers to questions:
1.  How I feel about homosexuality.  Well, I think there are basically three kinds of homosexuals (generally): The first kind is the person who is born predisposed to be attracted to the opposite sex.  I feel these people are few and far between.  The second kind are those who have been abused in some way, whether sexually or physically, etc.  Studies show that a LARGE number of people who are homosexual have had negative sexual experiences, such as sexual abuse, at some point in their lives, especially early on.  Lastly, there are those individuals who have simply experimented with so many things that their selfish and twisted ways have led them to be bisexual or homosexual just because they got "bored"...many intellectual figures of the past might belong to this category.

So how do I feel about homosexuality?  I think it's wrong, yet I don't judge somebody as "evil" because they are homosexual.  I do, however, think it is against nature and is wrong...although I think a lot of it depends on WHY someone feels or acts this way.

to be concluded...

Well, tough luck man...there are more than a dozen different forums here and the only one with "a lot" of posts about war and other current events is this one.

When hundreds of people start dying and the world is at warm or at least a large part of the world, guess what...people are going to talk about it.

If you want more info on OBE, etc please go to the OBE threads...

Excuse me, but I am a bit (actually VERY) skeptical of any book claiming to pronounce the meaning of life/existence.  I will have to look into it though.

FOr you to stick it up on top, you obviously must really like it.  I wish I could do the same for the books I love!  []

vesselinpeev:
I agree with you fully.  There is a VERY important reason that we have physical bodies in this life.

bomohwkl:
Would you mind sharing more about this experience.  Did she commuincate with you, etc.?

Regarding the importance of the body and not getting too carried away with OBE, there is this short article:
I Struggle to Stay In!
by Phylameana lila Desy
Vast numbers of individuals and clustering groups of people are seeking ways to experience out of body, never mind that several of these people seeking to be out of their bodies are actually seldom in their bodies in the first place - more than 50 percent of their energetic fields are hanging out in the ethers....

My personal experience is that for a major part of my life I had been out-of-my-body more than in it. And even now making conscious efforts to be more aware of my body and to actually be IN MY BODY continually I struggle with yanking myself back in. My spiritual nature is floaty. Grounding exercises help tremendously with maintaining a balance of our physical and spiritual bodies.

For years I thought that being out-of-body equated with being an enlightened or more spiritual being. I have since learned (urr...remembered) that I AM already a spiritual being. Being here on the planet means that I have this unique opportunity to be housed within a physical shell. Why discard or disdain the physical house? Without our bodies we wouldn't be able to enjoy the physical pleasures such as eating or sexual intimacy among many other physical sensations. After all, how could the spiritual body devour chocolate??

Out of body experiences done in a controlled fashion are safer and more fulfilling. Cherish your physical body as a place to return safely home to after the spiritual journey, not as a place to run away from.

This topic/question has been discussed in here NUMEROUS times and a great deal of good advice and personal expereinces/knowledge has been shared.  Try using the search engine built into this site (under the FORUM tab which is beneath the Astral Pulse logo in the upper left hand part of the screen).

I would stay away from Salvia Divinorum...it's effects are unpleasant in my opinion.  I agree with the Seeker.  

Any expereince you obtain by using psychotropic plants is usually difficult to control and therefore useless.  I also think it can interfer with the natural process of obtaining these expereinces through meditation and energy work.  

It is also easier to be attacked by negative energetic (spiritual)entities while under the influence.

Finally, I am not saying that all the effects are negative.  There are obviously pleasurable and positive aspects, but I think the negative ones far out weigh any positive effects.

The main thing I have found that these plants and chemicals teach is not to trifle with them.

I have not had the chance to read through this thread yet, so I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but I think
DREAMS
are the easiest think to compare to the OBE because they are similar and I believe that what a lot of people have thought to be dreams have really been OBE's they either vividly or vaguely remember.

Does anyone OBE for a specific purpose, such as trying to communicate with someone who has died?  (I don't recommend this) but I wonder.

Does anyone OBE for a specific purpose, such as trying to communicate with someone who has died?  (I don't recommend this) but I wonder.

[!][!][!]FINE!  Don't talk about this movie with me!

JK[][]

"First when a young male arab fundamentalist radical projects into the ethereal or astral he is more likely to seek and violently confront westerners there. I have no doubt at all that at least some of the negative entities encountered recently are discarnate muslem radicals. (Perhaps a few of those are permanently discarnate ( = dead) and if so then personally I feel no remorse or compassion.)
Secondly extreme emotions and thoughts that are extended over long periods of time can create what are called thought elementals. After a while a thought elemental can take an existence of its own free of its original creator(s). It is my belief that thought elementals are responsible for some of the cold spots and energy vortices encountered in various haunted houses."

Fascinating remarks GT.  While I disagree strongly with a few things said in this thread (mostly things BI has stated), I do see you understand a lot about the "unseen" (I put this in quotation marks simply because it isn't always unseen, as you very well know) reality around us.

The only ki balls I have ever seen are the ones Ryu and Ken throw in SF2.[]

THE BOTTOM LINE

I think this whole "problem" can be solved by remembering 3 things when you post:
1) Be respectful
2) Be thoughtful
3) Be yourself

Am I right?

I have had many heated discussions with people in this forum and, although we didn't end up agreeing with one another, we usually had a stronger/more positive relationship simply because we maintained respect and love for one another.

The following was taken from the 12 Monkeys film script.  Jeffrey is Brad Pitt's character and Cole is Bruce Willis.  THose of you who have seen this might get a laugh out of the following, if not, oh well, at least I did  (by the way, if you haven't seen this film, check it out, it's great!)

JEFFREY
Why don't I escape, that's what you
were going to ask me, right?  'Cause
I'd be crazy to escape!  I'm all taken
care of, see?  I've sent out word.
COLE
What's that mean?

JEFFREY
I've managed to contact certain underlings,
evil spirits, secretaries of secretaries, and
assorted minions, who will contact my father.
When he learns I'm in this kind of place,
classy joints where they treat you...properly.

LIKE A GUEST!  LIKE A PERSON!  SHEETS!
TOWELS!  LIKE A BIG HOTEL WITH GREAT DRUGS
FOR THE NUT CASE LUNATIC MANIAC DEVILS...

Interesting, yet not truly useful, at least spiritually...and they don't claim it is.  I got "bit" twice and logically it made sense why.  Thanks for the link.

I found one, it also gets the song info, etc.  Thanks so much for all the info though and I will likely download a backup program.  I think this info will most likely be of use to others.

By the way, what do you all think about dowloading music/copy rights infrigement?

Everything posted in this thread, no matter how outlandish is TRUE...that's why you think, "Well, I'll be damned!" When you read it.

Made of hog's hair and ivory, the first modern toothbrush was invented in China.


The giraffe is the only animal that is born with horns.


Dennis the Menace's favorite drink is root beer.


The movie "Psycho" featured the first toilet flush in a motion picture.


In the comic strip "Peanuts," Charlie Brown's father was a barber.


In China, the film "As Good As It Gets" is known as "Mr. Cat Poop."


Considered a distraction from archery, golf was banned in England in 1457.


The duckbill platypus can store as many as 600 worms in the pouches of its cheeks.


A group of 12 or more cows is called a flink.


Augustus Caesar suffered from achluophobia: the fear of sitting in the dark

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=380&SearchTerms=spider

Since no one else has responded, don't mind if I do!

First of all, this kind of thing is very common.  There is a fine line between the dream state and "OBE."  Dreams can turn into OBE's and vice-versa.  This has happened to me many times, especially when the dream goes lucid.

Anyway, I am a student too!  What are you studying my friend?

-Dan

Wow Celestial, sounds like you have the natural tendency to OBE.  How many conscious exit experiences have you had?  Do you expereince much fear?  And finally, do you remember having OBE experiences as a child?  

I like to ask these kinds of questions because I am interested in studying individuals like you who seem to have a natural knack for releasing your projected double.

Dan