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[Originally posted by Arie:]

quote:Originally posted by Arie:
Do all of you who have had obe's.....do you believe they have helped you to grow spiritually?  Just curious.  

I personally believe they have helped me grow spiritually.  No doubt about it.

quote:
How do all of you believe spiritual development takes place?  I already cast doubt on most of my beliefs....I've only kept a couple as you see in my other post.   I still feel like the same old me though.  I don't feel like I'm growing spiritually.

I think we all take from the experience what we want.  For example, even before having any OBE's, I was always a 'helpful'  person.  I didn't know much about the spiritual side of things, persay, but I had a good heart.  Now that I'm able to have OBE's/AP's, these give me more experiences which have opened my eyes to a whole new world out there.  What happeend was that it took this good hearted guy, and made him look at everything with a spiritual filter over his eyes.

Now everything I do revolves around my knowledge of the astral realm.  For example, I'm going to a Halloween party tomorrow night.  I have the option to get wasted and pass out if I want to.....but the first thing that goes through my head is, "Jeff, you know that if you drink too much, you're going to have your head spinning, and there would be no way in hell that you could project tonight."  You see, for me now, everything revolves around my projections.

Because of this outlook, I not only look at life differently but my hunger for learning and controlling these experiences has become a huge desire in my life.

quote:
I would like to hear from people....who feel like they are growing spiritually.   I would like to know what you are doing specifically that I'm not.

I don't know how to tell you what I may be doing that you're not.  However, I know that many people who OBE/AP smoke cigarettes....and this is an example of how I could never do that....since knowing that smoking causes cancer and an unbelievably horrible death, I don't understand why one would do that when there is so much more out there to experience.  If I wasn't an OBE'er, I probably wouldn't think like that and I could care less what the effects of smoking were.

That isn't to say that smokers are less spiritual than others, so don't misunderstand me.  But to use an anology, if fish knew they could breathe underwater, why would they use scuba gear?

Just my two cents.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by Brother 12:]

quote:Originally posted by Brother 12:
If you want to clothe these experiences and techniques in the kind of terminology you might be more comfortable with then it could be accurate to describe what is going on as psychological engineering at a very deep level of depth meditation.

I understand 'why' these terms are given....but it just reminds me of other institues (like the IIPC) which likes to give more complicated names and labels to things which only seem to confuse and mystify the entire experience.

quote:
You are in the habit of attacking first posts by new users as hogwash without attempting to understand where they are coming from!

Out of curiousity, how can I be in the 'habit' of doing something when I've only done it once?  And to say that I was 'attacking' is rather presumptious on your part, seeing that I prefaced my entire post in an apologetic tone, not meaning to offend or disrespect anyone for feeling that way.


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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by James S:]

Hey there James....

quote:Originally posted by James S:
I'm not trying to play off two different sources of OBE techniques here. I'm just using them to make a point. R.B. seems to be more concerned with helping people grow spiritually. TMI seem to be more concerned with taking money from people to expand their research into consciousness. Lets face it, exactly what do they give away for the betterment of others?

I hear where you're coming from, because I feel the same way.  However, I have a slightly different view on things.  

One, I understand why some people would requre money for OBE related tools.  For example, publishing books and materials (like Robert and TMI do) cost money, so I can see why one would charge something for people to have them.  In my own personal example, I am developing software for OBE'ers to use to record and track their experiences.  When it's finished and tested, I would like to sell this product.  Does that make me a cruel, capitalistic person for wanting some money for my hard work and effort?  I don't think it does.  However, what I won't do is charge an arm and leg for it, because I'm not trying to get rich off of it.  If one tries to get rich off of something, then they start to become too materialistic and consequently, lose purpose for why they made their products in the first place.

So I have nothing against TMI or anyone else who tries to see me something which would further my spiritual growth.  What I do have a problem with is when these same people hike up the prices to ridiculous amounts, or giving false hope to people that their products will somehow make projecting an overnight success.

quote:
What do you think is the main purpose in astral projection? Are we truly becoming better people if we are simply to learn a quicker way into the astral to use according to our desires? Or should we be seeking to better ourselves by taking the time involved in energy development and other more traditional projection techniques?

Personally, I use my AP experience as a way to become a better person all around.  My experiences have opened up my eyes to many things, which has carried over into the physical world.  I find myself being more understanding of people and their situations, because I know that there are other battles they must be dealing with in non-physical realms.

Using any external tools (tapes, books, etc) to help me achieve my goal to AP at will is welcomed with open arms.  Now, there are people out there who desire to AP only to spy on people and be devisive.  But what goes around, comes around, and they will reap what they sow.  Karma has a strange way of catching up to people!

And to me, phasing doesn't seem to take away from any spiritual growth that would come from traditional OBE's.  Both types of experiences involve your full waking consciousness, and it's that alone (the expansion of your consciousness) which allows you to learn and grow from the experience.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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Good post, Oahn.  Having a strong intent befor projecting is a key element to a successful projection.  And like you said, sometimes speaking our intentions outloud beforehand can be enough to instill something in our subconscious mind which will help us 'get out.'


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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by jackr:]

quote:Originally posted by jackr:
Is there an easy way??

It's easy in theory.....but much harder in practice.  But PRACTICE is the key word.  Some of us have been practicing for many years, and we're still nowhere near the skill level that we would like to be at.

My advice to you is to stick around this forum.  Stay active, read up on all the posts, and read any book you can get a hold of which deals with Astral Projection.  Not to kiss butt or anything, but Robert Bruce's book, "Astral Dynamics," is a great read.


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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by Arie:]

quote:Originally posted by Arie:
I plan on doing the interrupted (sp?) sleep technique tonight.  What techniques do you guys use to get out of your body?  Do you wait until your body falls asleep completely?   Thanks

What I do is that at some point after my sleep reflex has taken over, I 'snap' bak to my full conscious awareness.  Almost the same kind of feeling you get if you've ever died in a dream.  All goes black, and you feel strange, like something is about to happen.

Well, I'm very familiar with this feeling now, so whenever it happens, I simply ROLL out of my body.  That seems to be the most effective exit technique for me.  However, this is only something that one would use for going OBE.  If you were to astral project into the astral realm directly, you would simply phase right into it.




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Jeff Mash
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I responded to this in your previous post here: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2335


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Jeff Mash
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As you'll hear from a lot of people on this forum, the main difference between a dream, a lucid dream, and an OBE/AP is your level of awareness.  

If you have a litte bit of awareness, then it seems your imagination fills in a lot of the detail/environment.  However, the more lucid you become, and the more awarenss you're able to harness, the more you can control the experience and travel to real astral realms.  When that happens, you're imagination doesn't seem to create as much around you (unless you allow it to).  

It reminds me of a fish in water.  If you put a fish in water, it will naturally swim...unless you trap it on all sides.  Your imagination, by nature, will wander and start creating all sorts of things, which is why you find yourself going from scene to scene in all kinds of dreams.  When you gain your full awareness, you more or less harness the imagination and become more stable.

So to answer your question, was this experience some sort of an OBE?  I would rephrase that to say, "Did I have the same awareness in this experience as I would have in an OBE?"  Only you could answer that one, my friend.


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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by Th0th:]

quote:Originally posted by Th0th:
I feel your distress Brother 12. I too have suffered at the hands of Akishra and psychic leeches. They are very pernicious, and masters of disguise in the aetheric world.

This information from Deacon Lesenthe should give you some salvation, as it did for me.

"Like all aetheric creatures, and aetheric conductor will disrupt them, so if you think you're infected (usually only weak, sick people with no natural defenses... whatever those defenses may be), just swish a big, steel knife around your body a bit to dislodge them. They're pretty autonomous, so they should just skeddaddle.

Something called the "Trident fo Paraclesus" can be used in this case. It's a big, metal fork with a wooden handle that's been appropriately charged and consecrated, et cetera, for the purpose of chasing things away. Same purpose as the sword, but more points!"

Hope this helps. Take care of yourself.

Thoth

I don't mean this to be taken the wrong way, but I want to ask the people in this forum something.  When I read things like what Thoth wrote, my very first impression is, "That's a bunch of new age hogwash!"

I'm not saying this to be disrespectful in any way, because I respect everyone's beliefs, as long as they are not violent or extremist beliefs.  However, time and time again, I talk to people interested in astral projection, and I hear lots of advice like, "Take these crystals, place them on your chakras, and meditate."  Or, like the previous post, he said he "suffered at the hands of Akishra."

So am I completely ignorant in all things spiritual, or is this a bunch of new age rhetoric that people latch onto in order to try and label every astral entity that they come across?

Hope I didn't offend anyone.  I just would like to see where everyone is coming from on this.




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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by James S:]

quote:Originally posted by James S:
Jeff, Now the trick here is to grab one of those things running through your head and get it stuck in a loop " I like Mickey Mouse...I like Mickey Mouse...I like Mickey Mouse...I like Mickey Mouse". You'll either effectively quieten all other surface thoughts or really want to go and watch some cartoons.

Usually when my mind is stuck in an endless loop like that, it keeps me wide awake.  I either have to get up and read, or hit myself in the head with a hammer.

Lately though, I've had no trouble with fleeting thoughts.  In fact, surprisingly, whenever I lay down now, I'm shocked to see how quiet my mind is from the get-go.  

Last night, I also noticed something peculiar.  Do you know how normally, all throughout the day, we hear ourselves in our mind talking?  For example, as you're reading this, you probably have a silent version of yourself reading this in your mind.  When you look up and think to yourself, "I wonder what's for dinner?", usually its that same voice doing the talking.  I've always been aware of this, but last night during my meditation/trance, I started to hear *another* foreign voice.  It was a little garbled and hard to tune into, much like tuning into a radio station that has bad reception.  But I felt at the time that I was close to tweaking my focus in a way which would allow this foreign voice to come through.

It reminded me of the 'emmisary' that's talked about in Castenada's book, 'The Art of Dreaming.'



Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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Not I, my friend.  Have you had any experience with them?  I'm not even sure I know what they are.


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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by amazing abilities:]

quote:Originally posted by amazing abilities:
sorry im new
but i have a question blossom i have a girlfriend and i have to meet her dad to take her out anywhere but she doesnt want me to becuase i think she is scared of her dad do you have any advice

Well, I can tell you what NOT to do.  Don't have any condoms fall out of your sleeve when you go to shake his hand.  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile_big.gif" border=0>




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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by Frank:]

quote:Originally posted by Frank:
The key is to take things really slowly while you are out there. Thought and movement is ever so fluid within the Astral. Even if you slow things down to what feels like a half or a third the speed you would normally think and move (Physically) you are probably actually thinking and moving many times faster than you *ever* could Physically.

I had to laugh when I read that, because you're absolutely right.  Whenever I'm out, I literally take ONE STEP AT A TIME....almost concentrating on each movement so that my mind stays focused.  If I don't do that, it tends to flutter all over the place and, as you say, 'scupper' the experience!

I suppose the more experiences one has, the less they have to concentrate on stability as it starts to become second nature.  In the beginning stages of a projecters experiences, the mind seems to be overly excited.  As experience develops, the projector learns how to contain the excitement and become more passive and detached from things.  I would say I am just crossing over into that area now, based on the mentality I have when I'm in the astral realm.

Thanks again for the feedback, mate.



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Jeff Mash
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Hi there Oahn....

Welcome to the board.  You're post was very entertaining to read.  Let me ask you, did you do anything in particular to awaken your kundalini?  For example, were you constantly doing energy raising exercises?  Or did it just come up and hit you upside the head like a bum in San Fransisco?


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Jeff Mash
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Thanks for the reply Frank.  It's funny how all along, I always 'knew' that the higher focus levels were only a mental shift away, but I never fully analyzed my own projections to see that I was experiencing these minute shifts personally.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I wasn't projecting directly into the RTZ, then I was projecting into an environment which mimicked it.  And I now see how many times, I could be walking down a familiar hallway in my house, only to make a turn and find myself in a completely different house!  It's all about controlling these mental shifts.

Once again, thanks for the advice.  The last couple of times I got out last week, I have gone straight to an astral environment, instead of my traditional OBE exits into the RTZ.  I can't wait for my next one soon.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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Oh for the sake of Pete.......Somebody shoot me.


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Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by Frank:]

quote:Originally posted by Frank:

Jeff: That's an interesting occurence.

I'm a bit confused where you say you knew he wasn't a physical entity. Do you mean he did not currently have a physical body, i.e. he was not currently incarnate. Or that you knew the boy was currently incarnate but realised you were viewing a body other than his physical?

When I say that I didn't think he was a physical entity, I should give a reason why.  And the reason is.......I don't have a good reason!  I think I just assumed that since:

a) I was 'out' and usually when I'm 'out', I've never encountered anyone.  And those that I have were always shocked and alarmed.

b) I forgot what I was going to say for b.

Anyway, during this exact same projection, I did walk through a window of some house into a room which had some people in it, and they all looked scared to death to see me there.  So the only way I can explain this whole scenario is this:

1) Either I was in a realm which looked similiar to the RTZ but wasn't, or
2) I was in the RTZ and these entities were part of it.

THat still raises the interesting question though: I wonder if being in the RTZ, one can see and interact with beings who normally reside in higher Focus levels.  For example, could someone who usually resides on Focus 27 "travel" into the RTZ and interact with us there, or any other Focus level for that matter?  I would have to assume that they can, since we ourselves are free to travel through multiple Focus levels.

If this is true (and I've never heard anyone else hypothesize about this), then I can see how things can make a little more sense during a projection.  This could explain why many times, you're environment tells you that you're in one Focus level, but certain entities that you come across appear to be from another Focus Level.  

What do you think?


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by Frank:]

quote:Originally posted by Frank:
The big disadvantage is the Phasing experience is a whole lot more restrictive. Barring the odd exception, the only place you ever get to go, or thing you get to do, is to project within the Astral realms.

Frank, I just thought of a question, and I'd like to hear your take on it.  Since Focus 27 is the realm of people who have died and know it, and Focus 24/25/26 are the realms of belief systems where people usually look at you funny, would you say it's possible that one could project into a RTZ-like environment and still encounter one of these beings?

I'll give you an example.  In one of my earlier projections a couple of years ago, I found myself in my bedroom.  I made my way outside and started to fly to the corner of my street.  There, I saw a small boy, about 11 or 12 years old, who looked at me kind of shocked.  He was definitely able to see me, and I knew that he wasn't a physical entity.  He then picked up a rock and threw it at me, almost as one would throw something at an animal to keep it away!  

I always just passed this off as some astral entity that I encountered in the RTZ, but now I'm wondering, could Focus 24+ people be seen in a lower Focus level?  Or was I not really in the RTZ, but merely in an environment on a higher Focus level that mimicked the RTZ?  I guess it would also help to know which (if any_ Focus level the real time zone falls in.

Not sure if you can answer these, but I thought I would ask these questions as an interesting topic of discussion.


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Jeff Mash
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Meditating is a great tool to use for leaving your body in the same sense that a key is a great tool for starting your car.  It's not necessary, but it helps.

The reason why I feel a meditative mind is important to projections is that through meditation, one practices silencing your inner voice, which is a constant setback to a person when they're trying to get into a trance state.  Let me tell you, there is nothing worse than trying to quiet your mind when it's constantly talking to you.

"What am I going to do at work tomorrow?"
"Hey, when are these vibrations supposed to happen?"
"I like Mickey Mouse."
etc....


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Jeff Mash
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Ok, I'll take a stab at it.  When one has an OBE, you are going to feel a lot of bodily sensations.  You may feel yourself peel out of your body and find yourself either in the RTZ, the black void, or the astral proper.

However, when you "phase", it's almost like your bypassing a lot of that stuff and going directly to the astral proper.

Imagine being lowered horizontally into a pool of water.  You slowly pass through the surface of the water and become wet.  Phasing is like that.  You may start to see images or scenes flash before your closes eyes.  The more you observe these and detach yourself from everything else, you can "phase" or merge with the astral proper.  You don't necessarily feel any dramatic separation from the body, any violent vibrations, etc.

It can be an easier aproach to astral travelling, and less traumatic to the newcomer, because they don't have to deal with traditional OBE symptoms.


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Jeff Mash
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It could.  Sometimes being sick means lying in bed a lot and going in and out of consciousness.  That's a good recipe for some projections!

However, sometimes being highly medicated can affect your mental stability, and make any sort of projection attempt futile.

I'd say go for it.....you're in bed and resting, mind as well do some reading and practice some techniques!


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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[Originally posted by AndrewTheSinger:]

quote:Originally posted by AndrewTheSinger:
Jeff, how did you get to the Moon exactly? You flew from here to there? Requested to be taken there? If you requested, how did you request it and who did you request?

At the time, I was sleeping in a tent on a houseboat at Lake Shasta, California.  Here is the exact entry from my OBE Journal:

/****************************************/

Wow, what an amazing night I had last night.  It was the first night that we were houseboating, and during the night, sleeping was normal.  Early in the morning, I had to use the bathroom very badly, but I must have held it, going back to sleep for about an hour.  Finally, I got up, went to the bathroom in the water, and then went back to bed.  That is when everything happened.

I had so many experirences last night, it's impossible to remember them all right now.  But I can tell you that I felt in complete control, that I could have had an experience whenever I wanted.  

The most memorable one was when I was lying down, and I took my arms and dove into the ground. Almost right afterwards, I felt water, and I was diving deeper and deeper into Lake Shasta.  This was accurate to my location physically, which was on a houseboat.

Then, while underwater, I switched directions and began to go up.  I ended up coming out of the water and heading towards the stars. Last time I tried this, I became scared, but I was keeping myself calm this time.  At first, despite my extremely fast speed, the stars which I was looking at were remaining the same size.  Then, they all started to stream past me, like some warp drive special effect on Star Trek!  

I stopped right in front of the moon, which at this time was completely dark except for the light reflecting from the earth.  It appeared dark and ominous, filled with craters.  I was thinking about landing on it since it was literally right in front if me, but then I decided to turn around and look at the earth.  It was amazing!  The earth was in front of me, not very big, but still large enough to make out the outlines of countries.  I then started to fly very fast towards the earth, and I started to skim the surface of what is Africa.  I saw bushes and things blow by me very fast, and then I lost control and ended up back in my body.

/*************************************/

My journal entry for that night had a few other experiences, but I only posted this one about the moon.  I never asked to be taken there, but I remember that when I was flying upwards at a fast speed, the only thing I could think of was, "Hey, I must be in space right now.  Space? Moon!  BAM!  There's the moon!"

quote:
I have never made it to the Moon even though I tried to project there a few times.

Before this experience, I consciously tried to project there from the RTZ.  However, once I started to move super fast (at light speed), I got scared, disorientated, and lost control of the experience.


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Jeff Mash
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I've never really had any success using the rope as a relaxation method.  Instead, I've used the rope as an EXIT technique.

In other words, once I found myself in the body asleep/mind awake state, I used the rope to pull myself out of the body.  Like you, there is no way I can concentrate on pulling an imaginary rope for any length of time.


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Jeff Mash
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Tracy,

Hehehe, I'm the exact opposite.  Not only do I never see my guide, but I'm always free to roam wherever I wish!  Although I think in my case, my lack of interacting with a guide is only a phase.....I think once I learn a few more things on my own, they'll be ready to show themselves to me.

As for you, I don't think you could ever offend a guide, simply because they know more than you, and they know the human nature.  I suppose that if you insist on doing things your way and ignoring their instruction, they may distance themselves, just so you can see that you're not as smart as you think you are.  Who knows, though.

I imagine them to be like parents....who might tell the child what to do (and what not to do).....and when the child insists on doing things their way, the parents silently observe in the background, making sure the child doesn't get hurt, but also watching as the child learns lessons on their own.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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Hi Spirit,

Well, you've come to the right place.  One of the first steps at being successfull at astral projecting is to constantly keep that intent on your mind.  Coming to this forum and interacting with other like-minded people is an excellent way to accomplish that.  Not to mention, there are many people here who can help answer specific questions that you may have.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
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