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[36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." 39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." 40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak." 42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." 43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"]

quote:i don't want to see a single bible quote, not one iota of a reference to it, not even a hint of the bible from you in this entire topic, unless it is an important part of the story! i only want to hear "allanon's story"! only your thoughts and feelings about things! no preaching, no lecturing!

Mine, or anyone elses testimony to the Objective nature of the Bible is to be taken as fallible and insignificant in light to the True Way which is found in the Word's of Christ Himself.

The first book I picked up when I began my search for the Truth was the Bible. It is now the last. When I began to see if there was any credibilty in religious sentiment I delved deeply into most if not all of the major religious scriptures.

Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Dhammapada, various Sihk writings, kundalini, quantum, Koran, Gnostic text, philosophy such as Kant, Hume, Descarte, Plato, Aristotle, Mill, and finally the most important of all which is that of the Shaman.

Astral Projection was always my MEAN with which to seek out the Divine. If there was a God and spiritual experiences were happening to people than there must have been a BIOLOGICAL/NEUROLOGICAL CATALYST THAT MADE THESE EXPERIENCES COME ABOUT. In that I mean that when you hear about projection being done it is due to the chemicals of the brain being fired at specific intervals in order for the "soul", "self, "atman" or "higher self" to realize the spirit realm. A dualistic approach to the mind body problem.

I locked myself in my room for three years and rejected all manner of the "secular" lifestyle. I would get up at five in the morning and meditate and repeat mantrams and what not in order to break that first dimensional barrier. Celibacy was observed and a constant attention to thought patterns. I WOULD FIND GOD MY WAY. I would work out and hone my body so that it was marathon runner shape so that I could really beging my quest.

I was almost ready for step two.

Now the Shaman began to take shape inside of my spirit. I conversed with the realm of the Shaman's of Peru off the Napo river. IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR SOME REAL PROJECTORS JUST GO TO A VILLAGE DOWN THERE!! I learned the secret knowledge of plants and there effects on human consciousness. I observed the effects of the vine of the dead. I began to make major breakthroughs out of the body and had many, many terrifying ego death experiences. Entity contacts, etheric flight, beings of light, etc, etc. I was almost convinced in the Universalist approach but I felt evil at the end of that white tunnel. Instintively I knew that Jesus was supposed to be in the astral but where?

I still did not give up.

After three years of constant attention to these matters I finally had a series of TRUE visions.

My first came in the Colorado mountains. I fasted for a week and camped out in the middle of winter to really test my mettle. This was the first "Christ" experience I had. The visions I had of Him were few but very clear. I observed Him not with physical eyes but those that are of the Spirit. I remember running with Christ in Heaven as I meditated and He had the biggest smile on His face. As I looked back to see why I saw that all the sheep of His flock were following Him and they ran on His robe. But the most exciting part was that His robe flowed down to Hell. As He ran those that were in torment from Satan were grabbing on and being pulled up. The Light of that place is not from the sun but from the countenance of His Perfect face.

I began to delve into the Word. For obvious reasons I discarded my pantheistic, mystical approach and took a more orthodox root from here on out. But enough of this boredom, now for the real turning point in my thinking.

I was once again in the mountains and had been failing to help many of my friends that just seemed to be so lost. They were slaves to materialism and the flesh. They were slaves to drunkedness and lewd acts such as orgies and what not. My spirit was broke because there was no one I could relate my visions too. The Church wouldnt that is for sure. I began to walk a mountain path and this is when I really witnessed a miracle. When I went up that mountain that day I went up with a serious neck injury. I had a bulged disk in my neck from doing incorrect squat technique. The chiropractor said I would need surgery.

As I walked down that path it was night time. I was at the end of my rope and just about to give in to the world. I began to question myself and why the hell I was trying so hard to help a world that didnt give a excrement. I knew Jesus was out there but I had no more contact with Him yet as far as the astral went. I closed my eyes and just let faith take me up that Path. ALL AT ONCE I WAS HIT WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT LIKE A SPEAR THROUGH THE TOP OF MY BRAIN. It was bliss that transcended the flesh. I saw through new eyes. I saw the life of Christ unfold before me like a panaramic movie. It is there and all humanity will one day witness it first hand. The most important thing that I brought back can be seen in the verses below....

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."
39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."
43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.
45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"


I saw Christ as He went to pray alone. At this time in His life He was able to finally see what the Crucifixtion would mean. He would be seperated from God. All men would murder Him just to keep eternal life. He would always be cursed with the weight of man's sin. He would be totally alone. I SAW HIS FACE AS HE WEPT BITTERLY AND I FELL TO THE GROUND AND CRIED LIKE A BABY. I NEVER CRIED LIKE THAT BEFORE AND PROBABLY NEVER WILL AGAIN. Jesus suffered more than anyone realizes. He was seperated from the Father COMPLETELY. I felt the terror that gripped Jesus as He begged the diciples to sit with Him. I SAW IT. I LIVED IT. IT WAS A GIFT AND I WONT LET HIM DOWN. He did not want to die!!! But He did it because He has the only Perfect soul fo Love. He did it because God told Him too. He did it for YOU.

I had many other visions that night but when I left to go home MY NECK WAS COMPLETELY HEALED. THE DOCTOR DIDNT BELIEVE IT.

That is my partial testimony and take it for what it is worth. The Bible is the Way to go and WE ALL OWE CHRIST A LOT BECAUSE YOU DONT EVEN WANT TO KNOW WHAT SATAN IS LIKE.

I am praying for you and the world.

[1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.]

quote: never once doubted his existance. I don't think anyone here really does. I also believe the words that he spoke himself are among the wisest and most profound of anyone who has walked this earth.

I dislike what the christian church at large has made of him. I see them as using him more as an excuse than a reason. I put a lot of that down to what I consider to be the highly 'legalistic' writings of Paul.

IMO Jesus sought to free us from religions and dogmas. Paul just used the words of Jesus roughly a hundred years later to shove us right back into the dogmas again.

Just my opinions, but essentially yes, Jesus was / is real.

James.

1I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

[18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. 20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.]

quote:Not only do I believe the Bible has changed but also there used to be more books in the Bible. Did you know there are now 66 books in the Bible?

Peace & Love,
Paul

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

[Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles. 3 I have commanded my holy ones; I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath- those who rejoice in my triumph. 4 Listen, a noise on the mountains, like that of a great multitude! Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms, like nations massing together! The LORD Almighty is mustering an army for war. 5 They come from faraway lands, from the ends of the heavens- the LORD and the weapons of his wrath- to destroy the whole country. 6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty. [1] 7 Because of this, all hands will go limp, every man's heart will melt. 8 Terror will seize them, pain and anguish will grip them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at each other, their faces aflame. 9 See, the day of the LORD is coming -a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger- to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. 10 The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.]

Dear Timeless.....In answer to this statement.....

quote:Do you not see that your attitude is precisely what starts religious wars. Do you think God rejoices in war? Love does not start wars. Will and Ego start wars because they are the mother and father of hatred. What ugly cheap substitutes you offer for LOVE.

Raise a banner on a bare hilltop,
shout to them;
beckon to them
to enter the gates of the nobles.
3 I have commanded my holy ones;
I have summoned my warriors to carry out my wrath-
those who rejoice in my triumph.

4 Listen, a noise on the mountains,
like that of a great multitude!
Listen, an uproar among the kingdoms,
like nations massing together!
The LORD Almighty is mustering
an army for war.
5 They come from faraway lands,
from the ends of the heavens-
the LORD and the weapons of his wrath-
to destroy the whole country.

6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near;
it will come like destruction from the Almighty. [1]
7 Because of this, all hands will go limp,
every man's heart will melt.
8 Terror will seize them,
pain and anguish will grip them;
they will writhe like a woman in labor.
They will look aghast at each other,
their faces aflame.

9 See, the day of the LORD is coming
-a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger-
to make the land desolate
and destroy the sinners within it.
10 The stars of heaven and their constellations
will not show their light.
The rising sun will be darkened
and the moon will not give its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
12 I will make man scarcer than pure gold,
more rare than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;
and the earth will shake from its place
at the wrath of the LORD Almighty,
in the day of his burning anger.

quote:Love is not a sword it is a healer. You hold nothing in your hand.

34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
  " 'a man against his father,
      a daughter against her mother,
  a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--
       36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[5]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

[The Parable of the Sower 1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear." 10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'[1] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. 18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."]

This is the best parable in my opinion on those that fall from the faith and why. IT IS VERY GOOD READ IT!!!

The Parable of the Sower

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3Then he told them many things in parables, saying: "A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop--a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9He who has ears, let him hear."
10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?"
11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
  "Though seeing, they do not see;
      though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
  " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
      you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
   15For this people's heart has become calloused;
      they hardly hear with their ears,
      and they have closed their eyes.
  Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
      hear with their ears,
      understand with their hearts
  and turn, and I would heal them.'[1] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.
18"Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. 22The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. 23But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown."

[The Parable of the Weeds 24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' 28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "]

quote:it is possible that God would allow the Bible to be corrupted by man because he created another "tool" through which people can learn the truth about him:

From the Christian perspective this would be considered the person of Jesus Christ. If you have a direct relationship with Him and do not have access to the Word I believe you will still know the Truth in your heart.

Since I have been Born again I must add that my life has gotten HARDER not easier to tell you the Truth. Things that I would have paid no attention to before or simply ignored now make my heart race and my soul ache. When the Spirit is truly at work in you it is not some fun ride. In fact it is diametrically opposed. It is the flesh versus the Spirit. Many I believe turn from the faith because it gets very hard to continually have to fight the world system. I still believe that those people that had the saving Grace at one time in there life will be saved however. It is like the parable of the seeds. Read it below and Jesus explains the different type of believers and what happens with them.

The Parable of the Weeds

24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field."
37He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

[9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.]

quote:When I was a Christian I thought the same thing. Now that I am no longer one I see things differently. It has nothing to do with any hatred or dislike with Christianity.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

quote: Allanon-

I can agree with that statement. However, you to pass a class you don't argue with a teacher(they may fail you!) I have always been taught that in class you learn what they want you to, outside is your buisness, but in class you must listen and not try to argue. Is this your first semester? College is fun isn't it?]

I am a Senior getting a BS in Biology and a minor in philosophy. College is fun but it should be noted that what they teach ultimatelyat public institutions is MORAL RELATIVISM. That is the mind set of the world.

I bet if you did a survey of 100 college students 98 of them would agree that there is no Absolute Truth and it is all realtive to your perspective. It is the world system and it can be seen on this forum as well. It can also be seen as we tear out the ten commandments and put ourselves in the place of God.

I am still thinking of the best Way to do this testimony. I will get to it tomorrow.

quote:where's your testimony? it is time you explained what all the above statements are about... you have me totally intrigued. i am dying to know what you've been through, and what has brought you from "being in [our] shoes" to being a.... very enthusiastic bible-thumper. i really think you need to tell us about your experiences. if it is too painful or traumatic or something, you don't have to... just say so... we'll leave you alone about it. but just realize that all the quotes in the bible are just getting you nowhere with most of us. i'm sure you have to understand that, since you've said that you used to be like us.... you should know how we think, then. but if you're not too uncomfortable with sharing your story with us, you have my full attention.

just one thing:
i don't want to see a single bible quote, not one iota of a reference to it, not even a hint of the bible from you in this entire topic, unless it is an important part of the story! i only want to hear "allanon's story"! only your thoughts and feelings about things! no preaching, no lecturing!

I would be very happy to explain my testimony here. It is the topic of the thread and hopefully wont anger the administrators. However I have to go to my PHIL 332 class right now and let me just say that PHILOSOPHY MAJORS AND TEACHERS ARE REALLY THE ONES THAT ARE HARD TO DEAL WITH. Try going into a class like that and stick up for the Bible and you are pretty much laughed at. At any rate I will be thinking of the best Way to convey my experience and will get it up soon.

Jesus is a not a Spirit out there trying to screw you guys.

quote:For what its worth Allanon, the spirit I follow I do so out of love. I don't worship her. She was actually quite emphatic that I was NOT to worship her, just love her.

As to how she relates to Jesus, she says it is proper for him to be referred to as Lord Jesus. (They do have a great sense of propriety and respect in the spirit world!)

And before you ask, yes I am in regular contact with her. She is always with me.

So I guess you believe that Jesus does really exist if it is confirmed by your spirit. That is He is not something just made up by the Church.

quote:We shouldn't have to constantly deal with posts like this, but yet we do, several times a day. I don't enjoy looking through topics and seeing massive amounts of preaching, and all coming from one person. I think it's well established that not many people here do. I've yet to read a post by anyone that agrees totally with what Allanon is doing. We shouldn't have to deal with this, yet there is nothing that we can do. It's that simple. We just have to wait for moderator or administrative action.

Ignore my statements of Truth or just visit one of the other hundreds of threads here on the board. You write against the Word because you want it to go away. Your inner child knows the Truth but the sins of the world cloud the mind from Grace.

[quoteAllanon, I believe you will likely reject this path that I am on. The thing that I KNOW is that God does not. Remember that NOTHING can separate us from the love of God. That is UNCONDITIONAL. No ifs, buts, maybeys, rules, regulations, laws, sins, NOTHING. To say that we have to follow a particular way, or a particular set of instructions invalidates this one very basic statement.

][/quote]

If that is your path than I cant stop you. With your above quote it should be noted however that the reason for the unconditional love is because of Jesus Christ. Your spirit that you follow may be a good one. The Way that you can tell this is to ask it if Jesus Christ is Lord. If it agrees than it passes the test and is not a false spirit.

There are only two camps of spirits. They are for God or against Him. There is no middle ground here and I hope you realize that. Best of luck on your path but always remember even Angels dont recomend you worship them.

Traveling the Etheric realms can be enlightening and stimulating. However you always must ask yourself if it ultimately is gettin you closer to the Truth. Is it bringing you closer to Christ, If not it is counter productive. In Heaven there will be plenty of time to do travel and what not. THE PROBLEM IS AS OF NOW WE ARE IN TROUBLE AS A HUMAN FAMILY. We are near the end times and this can even be validated by your "mediums" and "spiritists", not that I think they are credible but that is something you can relate to.

It should be known that you are better off just doing the Right thing and following the TRUE ASCENDED MASTER WHO ROSE FROM THE DEAD AND WILL COME AGAIN PHYSICALLY. JESUS CHRIST.

One thing that I must add to all this is that I do not believe in an eternal hell. In the original manuscripts the hell fire is described as having eternal consequences which is death but not eternal conscious torment.

Eventually everyone will realize that the only perfect lifefore is God alone and this is revealed by His incarnated human self Jesus Christ. And furthermore just to really get the message across God Himself allowed death to visit His body just to prove to the universe the sick and twisted end result of sin. I am sure there is much that we humans are unaware of as far as other created beings go. Certanly we are being observed by all of creation in manner with which God is trying to show His case that those who put themselves before Him will do the ultimate sin. Kill the only perfect soul in existance.

The Bible is the revealed inerrant, infallible, and eternal book in the original writings I might add that we should follow. No matter what the world around us says and what we percieve through the senses. God is not some inept deciever that is going to allow His book to be fuc$%%# with just because the Romans decided the canon in 350 AD. If God wants something to be done it will be done even IF THE MOST EVIL PERSON IN THE WORLD IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING IT. IN THAT I MEAN THOSE WHO DECIDED ON THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE EVEN IF THEY HAD BAD MOTIVES WOULD FAIL AT THEM BECAUSE GOD IS NOT SOME PENCILNECK.

[Isaiah 40:28Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.]

Soulfire-

I understand where you are coming from. I too once had trouble with Absolute Truth claims and what they entitled. But often what you or I want is not in congruence with God's Will. Whatever the case I am sure you follow an ethical lifestyle that could be considered similar to Christianity. I am sure you dont willfully try to be a bad person.

But the fact remains that there is One God and He is not a flake.

He has a Way that should seem obvious to the world but it doesnt because we are so blinded by sin.

As far as Jesus and His sacrificial death are concerned I dont see how you cant figure out why that is. The OT is full of atonement of sin via the sacrafice of various animals or the blood. It is pretty obvious to me that the Jews were the chosen people of God and were blessed by God above all other nations due to Abraham and his faith. They failed to recognize the True Messiah and this is what gives us Gentiles access to the New Covenant in Christ and His PERFECT blood which can atone for not just one but ALL sin. It is the central theme in the Bible and it comes with constant study of scripture and inquiries.

Isaiah 40:28
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and his understanding no one can fathom.

quote:This is a sensitive and hot button for me too.

The christian's word's and actions are put under a microscope. The foul things that can be said about the christian faith is awful.

Many outside of christianity are quick to call out hypocrocity about the faith and faithful. Hypocrocity is just as evil whether your a christian or not.

Those who choose to not recognize God is one thing. Those who prey upon the believers of God are something else. Allanon is correct about the wrath of God.

The bible is a tool to teach one how to think for oneself. Believers are extremely underestimated. And....God will not be mocked.

If only more people can understand the awesome power of God!

A copcat action is taking place in my state by the ACLU regarding the removal of the ten commandments in the same manner. I feel the evil in this whole thing!

Nice Reply. The Lord keep you.

quote:Andrew unfortunately started suffering from depression a few years ago. He had been prescribed medication, which kept him stable, but wasn't helping him to improve. He started to attend a non-denominational group called GROW, which started here in Aus in 1957, has since gone international, and is designed to help people combat mental health issues, mainly through getting people together in small groups on a weekly basis. It's foundations are christian based, but christian doctorine is not pushed at all, people have free choice as to their beliefs.

It was just over a year ago, during his time in GROW, that Andrew had an encounter that really brought him back to life. His description of what happend fit the Classic OBE scenario, though he'd never had one before or new anything much about them. As he described it, he was taken to meet Jesus Himself. The Lord spoke to him, told him who He was, and there could be absolutely no doubt - no deception. Andrew described Him as having the most overpowering presence, a being of pure love and light. Andrew just broke down before him and sobbed. Jesus lifted him up, and embraced him. Andrew described being completely infused with love and absolutely pure raw energy, the likes of which he's never encountered before.

Now, Andrew does not just believe, he KNOWS! He has met Jesus. he KNOWS he exists! Not by the words of the bible, not by what a dozen ministers have told him, but by what he has experienced himself. The Jesus Andrew met fits exactly what Adrian has described - an extraordinary being who has achieved a state of perfection. There is nothing false about Him. Jesus is a being of a magnitude way beyond us and is someone worth believeing in.

Andrew, like you Allanon, and like I used to be, was unaccepting of any other belief, thinking them to all be false as the bible says them to be false. What he understands now after his encounter with Jesus, is that there is no need to fear other beliefs, because the love and presence that he felt was one of unconditional acceptance, and that the path to God is not one of rules and laws as written by men, but one that is open to anyone who would seek a path of love and light.

I have had many, many OBE's and a few NDE experiences. I know of the being of Light. I have seen many worlds PERSONALLY that are beyond this dimension in space and time. I have seen things with the pineal gland or sixth chakra as you guys call it that I would bet only a few Shamans of the Amazon have any idea of. THAT DOES NOT MATTER. I went down that road. The road of dimensional travel and YOU NEED A GUIDE. JESUS CHRIST ONLY AND HIS HOLY SPIRIT. I am telling you that these Ascended Masters and what they teach is a trap. You have to Love the Correct God. You have to Love the Truth. Not the illusion.

Like I said before however my testimony is NOT what you need. You need the Word of God only. The Jesus in the Bible and the Gospel of Christ is the only OBJECTIVE standard to rely on. But just so you know I have had many, many experiences in the Astral and IT IS NOT A PLACE TO BE SCREWING WITH UNLESS YOU ARE ROOTED VERY, VERY STRONGLY IN THE WORD OF GOD. TRUST ME MAN. You and your friend were disillusioned by the CHURCH and what the organizations told you. I am not telling you to join a Church. I am telling you to join the Body of Christ by understanding the Word of God. Read the Bible and heal yourself through the Holy Spirit. Jesus will walk with you and you will see EVERYTHING differently if you are really dedicated to Him and His Word.

God Bless you all and good luck in the AP realm without Christ because you bring things back with you that you do not see or feel or hear. They influence you and without the protection of the Holy Spirit you will be blind to the Truth that is found in the Bible alone.

quote:We could ignore the whole religious issue and look at the other things this judge has done. He asked if he could put up this monument, he was told no yet he does it anyway. I wonder what kind of judge breaks the laws just to please himself. Next, did he get a building permit to erect this monument? hmm ... Then, this is public property not his own, so why is it that he gets to put whatever he wants on it reguardless of what those above him says? This is his place of work. If I should go to work and put up something that those above me have told me not too I might be lucky to have a job the next day, but you can be sure that whatever it is I put up would be gone.

The judge is trying to answer to a higher authority which is God. He will be rewarded for his testimony and action.

quote:nobody here, infact I argue that nobody on Earth, truely knows what is going to happen to them after they die.

Look to God and His Word for the answer you seek.

quote:take the bible out of your back pocket and think for yourself

I would rather take God's Word on things.

quote:Gandalf,
ROFLMAO!!!

Ok hands up who can spot the members without a sense of humor!

Reminded me of this skit from Rowan Atkinson:

The Devil

Hello, nice to see you all again.

Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell, and I am the Devil. Good evening. You can call me Toby, if you like - we try and keep things informal here, as well as infernal. That's just a little joke.

Now, you're all here for eternity, which I hardly need tell you is a sod of a long time, so you get to know everyone pretty well by the end, but for now I'm going to have to split you up into groups. Are there any questions? Yes?

Um, no, I'm afraid we don't have any toilets... if you'd read your Bible you would have seen that it was damnation without relief. So, if you didn't go before you came then I'm afraid you're not going to enjoy yourself very much... but then, I believe that's the idea.

Right, let's split you up then.

Can you all hear me still?
CAN YOU HEAR ME AT THE RACK?

All right, off we go...

Murderers, over here. Looters and pillagers - over there please, thieves if you could join them, and bank managers...

Fornicators, if you could step forward - my God there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Adulterers if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine there.

Okay...

Americans, are you here? Look, I'm sorry about this, apparently God had some fracas with your founding fathers and damned the entire race into perpetuity. He sends particular condolences to the Mormons who He realises put in a lot of work. That's the way the wafer crumbles. The Iranians, I'm afraid, can't be with us - someone's been holding them in purgatory for about nine months.

Sodomites, over there against the wall.

Atheists! Atheists? Over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of charlies.

Okay, and Christians! Christians? Ah yes, I'm sorry, I'm afraid the Jews were right.

Okay, Moonies, maniacs, marmite eaters, male models, masochists, mass murderers and masseurs, if you could take a pew at the back - with the Methodists that is.

Now, you're the lot who used to kill whales, is that right? Ah, yes, I must remember - I've got some strips to tear off you bastards later.

Everyone who saw Monty Python's "Life of Brian" - I'm afraid He can't take a joke after all.

Alright now, one final thing. We're trying to implement some kind of exchange scheme with the Lord God Almighty, or Cliff as we know him. Some of you will travel up and have a decade in heaven and we're having some angels down here. Now, I hardly need tell you that in heaven you will be expected to behave in an exemplary manner, so I hope you will do the exact opposite - tear off their wings, use their haloes for frisbee practice, that sort of thing.

Well, I have to go now, unfortunately, but Beelzebub here will show you the ropes ... and the chains, and electrodes.

I'd just like to leave you with a favorite joke of mine, if I may. Quite apt to the circumstances, I think. It goes something like this:

Knock, knock!

Who's there?

Death.

Death wh...!



Enjoy
James.

As far as this follish stanza goes all I have to say is JESUS TAKES YOUR PLACE at the judgement for your sins if you will recieve Him.

[10You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who CALLS you into his kingdom and glory. 13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.]

quote: would be sincerely interested in hearing your thoughts on this. I don't want to "argue" with you, but I want your honest feelings about it. There are many MANY similar examples...

quote:Think of the language here and what it means: his "elect" and his "chosen". If this is an accurate perception of the mindset of God, it implies that God chose which of us will be his, correct? If this is true, then God also chose which of us would be left to rot in Hell. We never had any choice...it was God's choice. If that is true, then the teaching of a fair "judgement" by God when you die must be false, because if God had ALREADY decided whether or not each person was going to be "his" or not, then there is nothing left of "us" as individuals to "judge". It would be more accurate to say that we were PRE-judged...prejudice.

God calls those to Him that are willing to HEAR HIS WORD. It is not prejudice as you say. If you will not hear the Word of God than you will not be able to test His will and know what he wants. ANYONE can be Chosen that decides to put His Word ahead of man made doctrines and ideologies. Read the verse below for more.

The only Way to be in the New Kingdom is if God ALLOWS us in. We cannot make it on our own. The Word is your guide and Jesus is the physical manifestation of His Truth.

10You are witnesses, and so is God, of how holy, righteous and blameless we were among you who believed. 11For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who CALLS you into his kingdom and glory.
13And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

quote:Hasn't the controversy around the commandments in that court been around for a while? I think the judge in question should resign and join the 700 Club.. If he was truly meant to be a judge, he would understand not everyone in America is Christian and not everyone in America would be comfortable with those commandments. He shouldn't taken the hint when it first became and issue and just taken it down instead of decided to be a hero for the church. The United States, unfortunately enough for this judge, has to recognize everyone's constitutional freedom of religion and right not to be alienated. I just thought I should share.

Your thoughts on this situation?

This country was founded by Christians and taking down the commandments will invoke the wrath of God.

quote:and hopefully people (ahem...you know what I mean) see the SARCASM in that post.good one gandalf.

The mind of God is not something to be sarcastic about. I did not write to decieve or mock but to proclaim to you the Truth that is found in our Lord Jesus. Your rejection of the Word is like that of Sodom and Gamora. People were carying about as they do now but did not heed to the warnings of the prophets. There lot was that of fire and wrath. I write to you to help you understand that the powers we fight are not of flesh and blood but of spirit. Spirits of deception that blind the mind from the message I am putting forth to you from the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The complete Gospel and revelation of the workings of the Lord to the fallen.

Do not joke about the seriousness of this. Anyone who has ears let him hear that the Lord is coming soon to call His elect and Chosen from the principalities of the world.

[Treasures in Jars of Clay 1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[1] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.]

quote:Bible with bible can be easy.

I hope this helps Allanon. Don't judge, let God judge his children.

-Tenacious

Make sure you quote the Bible in the Way it was intended to be quoted. Paul puts it best here below.


Treasures in Jars of Clay

1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"[1] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

[Jesus Is Coming7 Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.9 But he said to me, Do not do it! I am a fellow- servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!10 Then he told me, Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.12 Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.15 Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.17 The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.20 He who testifies to these things says, Yes, I am coming soon. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.]

Jesus Is Coming

7 Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.
8
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9 But he said to me, Do not do it! I am a fellow- servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!
10 Then he told me, Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.
12
Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.
13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.
15 Outside are the dogs, those who practise magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practises falsehood.
16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.
17
The Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life.
18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20 He who testifies to these things says, Yes, I am coming soon. Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.