Messages

To see what its all about, a scientist should have an OBE. I cant think of better proof than someone being there themself.

As far as proof goes, singular personal experience which cannot be reproduced by others is very poor.
Personal experience is fraught with ambiguities many of which might be self created from belief system, desires or self-delusion (confabulation). Just by reading many accounts of others astral experiences shows how radically different each person's experience of the astral is - especially when they filter those experiences through personal belief systems and consequently build philosophies of self and reality based upon them.
The only way proof (outside of personal belief based upon experience) of the astral will come about is to study either direct results from projection (people meeting, reading things remotely, seeing actions of others remotely etc) or to discover the mechanisms behind projection itself. As James said above, science is moving into some very exciting areas, so we might have glimpses of such proof in the not too distant future.

Science doesn't stand either way on OBE/AP as there are currently no tangible elements of this phenomenon to study outside of its psychological and philosophical implications. Science deals with what can be measured, and as yet, nothing in the OBE sphere can be measured directly.
It might not always be this way, but until whatever physical mechanisms involved in OBE can actually be detected in some way (anything which acts on the physical body or mind must have also have a physical mode of action – even if it is undetectable as yet) then we are stuck with indirect measurements such as number reading while OBE etc.
Scientists might have viewpoints regarding  these phenomenon, but science as it stands is purely impartial to it.

Something to consider is that our current categorisation of emotions, colours, sensations, concepts, basically everything we perceive, how we perceive etc might be a one time emergence from this current time and place. Even temporal and spatial locality might be properties of this time and place rather than innate facets of creation.
Our brains perceive in the only way they can; we percieve, construct, deconstruct, associate, dissacociate in the only way we can (which to a degree explains the structure we perceive around us). This leads to a very 'human centric' view of creation (iced with the current social and societal behaviours and viewpoints of the time).

The point of this rambling is, that even if things do start over and over again we might not even be able to conceive of our current mode of thought or perception - or we might not even have the faculties to conceive of anything at all.

MisterJingo, I guess I worded it wrong.  But what I meant was "What is your religion?"
Sorry about that.

Cavernstoy

In that case, I have no religion .

Other. Everyone has a belief system, even if that belief system is to believe that they have none . 'Other' for me is that I do not subscribe to any one strict belief system; I try to keep an open mind about everything, and evaluate any new experience or knowledge in terms of this openmindedness and my experiences to date.

Hey Sorrow,

you should be able to find lots of threads around here to get you started. It's great to have you here .

Voices or imagery, it all stems from the same place. So utilising voices to help project should be possible. I guess experimentation is in order, focus on the voices to the exclusion of all else - perhaps incorporate some tactile visualisations too (these are much easier to create than visual or even aural visualisations) and see what happens.

Hi Gav,
I sometimes get 'attacked' around the F10 stage too - although I need to be in a deep F10 state (usually bordering on the equivalent of sleep paralysis).
For me at least, I've narrowed down these attack situations to a few possibilities.
Firstly, sometimes I get very uncomfortable tactile sensations, and while they don't produce a strong fear reaction, they can produce uncomfortable sensations. In the suggestible state of F10, I think these uncomfortable (negative) sensations are sometimes interpreted as an attack.
Another possibility is that in the F10 state, we are letting down our natural defences, our mind is suggestible, and we are more in tune with our subconscious mind. Repressed, negative emotions/situations etc could 'bubble' to the surface mind and be interpreted and displayed by the mind as an attack. I don't get this too frequently now, but for a few years during OBE practice I would get it frequently. We seem to repress a lot of things over our life time (it's quite surprising how many things can cause fear reactions and then get buried in our mind in mundane day-to-day situations), and any form of 'mind work' (meditation, energy work, trance work etc) can bring it to the surface mind.
Literally accepting this, watching passively, and not getting caught up in it (or hooking into it with strong emotional response) seems to allow the mind to resolve whatever the repressed material is (in my experience anyway).

[yourself]

Something you will find is that if you go into the astral with preconcieved notions, those notions will be be proven to yourself (this doesn't necessarily mean they hold any truth outside of your own desires. I've known a lot of people who read about the astral long before they experienced it. Rather than maintaining an open mind, they imposed the writings and teachings the learnt upon their interpretation of their experience. They take this as justification such teachings are true - rather than seeing they interpreted the experience in terms of the teachings etc.
If someone wants to believe they are a 4000 year old fallen angel, leave them too it, but don't buy into it unless you want to. I'd be cautious for the simply fact the astral doesn't seem to have linear time, so age is irrelevant i.e. we are all timeless or so to speak. Secondly, talking about angels shows a belief in certain religious ideas - the astral is big enough to encompase all religions, beliefs and doctrines. This doesn't mean to say any of it has any truth outside of built up belief.
In these matters it can be best to err on the side of caution so you consider all possibilities rather than restrict yourself to one.

[nothing]

I am only now discovering the advice I received in the other thread is true, that one must keep a solid grounding in earthly life to practice this sort of thing.

I'm feeling reallllly shaken up, very badly after I had a bad natural (not drug-induced) experience... I came in contact with a being who seemed very powerful... He was very friendly and at first we were talking normally and then he reveals that he is a demon, so casually. Suddenly I get really frightened and I ask to go back, but he says, just as casual as he was talking earlier, he says that I can't leave and that I have to stay there forever. I then protest this and say he has no right to say that, and he gets really angry and says I am just a petty human and he could kill me if he wanted or take over my body. He then revealed his actual face and.... now I've been shaking the past couple hours.

I don't know where I went but it was a pretty deep place and... the thing is I now feel the reason he came in contact with me was because he knew that he could prey on my energies like a vampire, since I am a very open person. I already have disassociative issues and some mental problems, I don't know what I was looking for with all this tsuff but I feel now I'm on a path which I can't easily sway from... I'm still very drawn to it but now it's starting to be against my better judgment, like 'be careful what you wish for'

can you guys please tell me this wasn't real and I don't have THAT demon stalking after me?

Hey thenoob ,

Such experiences can be very scary, and can have an effect after they are over. Each and every one of us carries a lot of baggage. This can take the form of repressed emotions, fears, memories, beliefs – all these things are churning away in our subconscious mind, and they can colour our interpretation and view of the world.
I've had such experiences as yours, and I've been able to trace them back to fear responses which have played upon either dominant worries or things currently preoccupying my mind.
In previous experiences what seemed like a God, attacked me, I've been stalked by devils and deamons, and even had a sword fight with death (skeleton, scythe and all).
At the time I was terrified, and I'll freely admit I used to prey to God and Jesus for help. This was a response to the religion of my upbringing. Such prayers made me feel better, but I was the one making myself feel better rather than any divine intervention.
Over time, such experiences faded as I didn't feed them with fear, and now, even when I have what used to be terrifying experiences, I can on the whole watch them passively. I've also let go of my religious beliefs too - AP can be a very good tool at purging things we don't need .
The mind contains a lot of powerful energies, and AP can put us into contact with them, some will be pleasant, others will be negative and fear based. Something to keep in mind is that nothing can truly harm or destroy you in the astral – things can become very scary, but by holding on to these truths, you will come through unscathed.
Something I also did along the way was to learn shielding techniques (these really gain their effect through belief nothing can penetrate the shield, but they are very effective and can be utilised at will). One of them is called REBAL (resonant energy balloon), and to use it I will take a deep breath (seeing pure energy flowing into my mouth and lungs, and being held there), then I will visualise the number 10 in a bubble in my mouth, when I exhale, the bubble expands to surround me with a bright energy layer. Nothing can penetrate that layer unless I want it too.
This tool is from the Gateway Series Wave 1 (Monroe Insititute).
Anyway, I'll stop meandering. If anything becomes too much, then take a break. But just remember that nothing can truly harm you, and that a lot of the bad things you face are parts of you. Facing these things, and going through them will reduce them over time. It's like tidying up all the negativity leached up over a life time.

My definition of gravity is a multi-dimensional transcending force that is weak yet effective in our dimension.
If you think about gravity it is a force weaker then magnetic forces, yet strong enough to keep us grounded.

It truely is a amazing and complex force to understand, one beyond my comprehension.

I'd like to think of it as a force that seeps into our dimension,
yet its real origin stems from elsewhere and that is where its true nature and strength lyes.

In our dimension it must abide by different laws and rules of physics.

There was a theory that suggested our brane intersected (collided) with another brane (possibly causing the big bang due to the release of immense energy), and gravity itself is seeping from the other brane into our universe - which might explain gravities strange properties. But as yet, this is just one of countless ideas.
Perhaps when the LHC at CERN starts working (hopefully later this year) we will find more pieces of the puzzle.

Imagine a 2d plane.  If it is flat, there are no distortions in placement of the plane's grid.  However, if you have to wrap part of the grid around a sphere, it distorts the dimensions.

Assume the sphere has a radius of r, and the coordinate system is centered at the core of the sphere.

For simplicity, I'll limit the warp to one dimension on a hemisphere model.

Every x dimension between y's r and (-r) has the following displacement applied to it:

for |y|<=r and x>=r:
x'=x-(pi/2)*r*sin(acos(y))

The grid displacement would look similar to this:



(green lines = distorted x-lines, white circle = sphere, white horizontal lines = y-lines)

So imagine an object going along an imaginary or real string that has the same distortion applied to it as the the x-axis lines in the image.  A straight course would skew off into a tangent towards the sphere, when it reaches y=r or y=-r.

For example, look at a rollercoaster.  When an object is trying to go one way, and is forced to go another, g-forces (artificial gravity) are produced.

Imagine spheres in space causing rollercoaster-like warps in superstring 'track'.  Objects wanting to go 'straight' are being re-directed into another direction, thus producing gravity.

But such a view does not indicate how gravity propagates outside the immediate area of indentation. Also, the idea of a 2D plane is more a conceptual model used to help us understand rather than a direction translation of what is occurring (like 'imaginary time' in mathematics). In truth, the 'indentation' would propagate along the 3 physical dimensions (gravity is not only evident on a plane) and into the 4th (time) and, if we follow certain ideas from M-Theory (theory attempting to unite the 5 superstring theories), it is one of the only forces which can propagate across branes (our physical universe being a brane) and the other proposed dimensions – but this is mainly theoretical as yet.

Yes, I understand that belief plays the important role of whether or not one will approach this area of work. But is all of this based off the imagination? Do I imagine the energy flowing through me, doing as I want it to do, and it will happen? Will someone please elaborate?

If you practice energy raising/developing techniques you will feel what could be interpreted as energy. But one person's energy sensations are another person's increased awareness of natural body sensation being interpreted as energy through desire and belief (such sensations building over time as the belief is reinforced), and yet again this is another person's increased awareness of surface blood flow through the area focused upon, feeling tingly and being interpreted as energy.
Whether this is truly energy or not might not be important, what is important is the reinforced belief that it is. This belief can then be used as a foundation for other beliefs which might trigger natural reserves of the body or mind.
Also, we don't truly know what the imagination is, so yes it might be imagination, but our (basic) understanding of what imagination is might be flawed.
You will meet many people on forums such as these; some will believe totally in energy systems, others won't. Read all areas from the mystical models to the phasing models, and then make your own judgements based upon your own experiences.

Are you talking about the enrgy systems and chakras? If so, there are many who believe such systems themselves are belief systems rather than innate 'energy' structures inherent in all life.
quoting myself from this thread:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_energy_body_development/reasonable_proof_on_the_existance_of_chakras-t25494.0.html

I don't know of the historic origins of the chakra system, but I see striking similarities between it and other systems such as the Kabala. Both systems have nodes and paths (the kabala can be mapped to the body i.e. the middle pillar) and both map the macro and the micro to each node. The chakra system in the west seems to be moving away from these associations into more of a meditative object.
It seems that such systems map the psyche to specific abstract ideas (nodes), mapping the cosmos to such nodes too and drawing associations between them.
I see this as a tool for spiritual advancement because when the associations between the chakras/nodes and the underlying psychological/physiological is strong enough, working on the chakra system as a visualisation would actually effect change to the associated systems. The mind works well with abstract concepts, and visualisation of energy cleansing and charging chakras would have the intended positive effect on associated part so of the mind and body etc.
In this respect, I see the chakra system as a belief system which one can reinforce to work more easily with areas of the human psych/body on an abstract level, rather than an innate structure in all life.
As alluded to above, it seems the western ideas of chakras in the mainstream are simply chakras being energy nodes without the underlying associations taking place – this will render the system weak at best. Belief might derive some benefits from it, but it's the belief rather than the system doing the work.

There are many systems of belief concerning reality, self and existence, and all or none of them might contain truth. Personal experience, a degree of skepticism (even concerning the interpretation of personal experience), and a willingness to be open minded to avenues which do not match what you want to be true are best utilised when searching for answers.

Details details....   Oh well back to the drawing board.

There is a link that i'm meaning to post (I just have to find it again ) that is interesting and along these lines. It concerns a possible new state of matter which has been discovered, and implications the universe might be string-net liquid .

Actually, here it is:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg19325954.200

So liquid might be on the right track, just but the reality might be mind-bendingly complicated.

Why?  It seems to me that any disruption or ripple would affect everything in the medium, regardless of distance.  The effects would be tiny, but it still would exist.  Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

Disturbances in a fluid take time to propagate throughout the fluid. The universe is so large that there are parts of it which we will never see even before it ends because its light will never reach us in time. Gravity instantly effects every object regardless of distance (such effects can be seen in entangled particles - that is information is instantly transmitted between such particles regardless of distance), if gravity was more the effects of a fluid space, such action would not occur.
Also, the expansion of the universe is increasing over time, if as in the post I replied to there was no empty space, this expansion would be crushing everything already (due to the significant mass of the universe pushing against itself in increasing intensity) or at the least overriding  the effects of minute atoms in its substrate.

that guy was in prison? where did you saw that readings about that i was lying?

The guys name is James Hydrick and googling about him brings up lots of stuff on this, some which includes interviews with him about his time in prision and explanation on why he pretended to have psychic powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Hydrick

http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/2007/03/the_confession_.html

http://www.unexplainable.net/artman/publish/article_2685.shtml

I didn't think you were lieing? I checked your link out and recognised it due to the guy in it eventually admitting he was a fraud (something I had come across a while back).

OK, I've read some ideas thrown around this (in books and elsewhere), here's my guess at what gravity is:

Instead of imagining space as "empty", and matter as "solid", try reversing the process.  Imagine space is a continuous fluid, and "matter" is a disturbance in the placid, endless ocean of space, similar to air bubbles in a soda can.

Each energy disturbance, known as an "atom",  pushes the space outwards.  But since space is already "endless", it can't get any bigger. So it attempts to "crush" this disturbance to restore the placid order.  A bigger disturbance causes a bigger reaction from the space pool.  When it gets to a certain level of supernova, it reaches a point where the mass can hold back the pressure no more, forms a black hole, and shrinks into a singularity.     

A gravity field can be seen as a spacial "repair zone" to restore/offset-to the placid state.  It diminishes the further away one gets from the object.

Every action requires a reaction, so gravity could be seen as the reaction to the action of spacial distortion.

This does sound interesting, but it doesnt account for the one property of gravity that is every object in the universe has an attraction to every other object - not just those in it's immediate area (of disturbance). So right at this instant me and you has a gravitational attraction (although it would be so minute as to be insignificant).

Well the guy in the clip admited he had no powers to an investigative journalist called Dan Korem a few years after the linked clip was filmed. He says he learned the tricks which made it look like he had telekinesis powers whilst in prison.

Hey Solas,

Welcome to the forums .
Being immersed in the forums and reading of others OBEs might hopefully kickstart your first consicous experience .

I remember reading about an inventor that would build a machine in his mind and then visualize it running to see how well it would perform and what changes to make before actually building it. Unfortunately, I neither remember what book it was or the name of the inventor.

I've spent a lot of time practicing visualization during meditation, and it really is a skill that a person can learn. When I started, things were vauge, still, and choppy, but now it's easy to visualize myself in a setting and picture movement and details.

I think visualizing is more about concentration - being able to hold something in your mind without distraction is a major key.

In his book 'Astral Doorways' J.H.Brennan gives a series of exercises to increase ones ability to visualise. They take around 10 minutes a day and allows anyone to build the ability to visualise intricate scenes and objects over time. It's not an easy road, it starts out with basics, such as holding a square in your minds eye for as long as possible, but it increases to the level of visualising full rooms, then adding other senses to the visualisation (such as seeing yourself walk around it and touch things etc).
Laziness saw me not practice as much as I'd like to have done, but from what I did experience, the exercises were pretty good for those wishing to increase their visualisation abilities.

Hey an3mptyb0tt13,

This sounds very similar to a lot of my 'waking into a sleep paralysis state' experiences. Usually the immediate precursor dream contains a degree of lucidity, and an element of fear. What I think is happening is that we are on the border of sleep, so still seeing the dream images, but we become subconsciously aware of the paralysis state – this immediately generates a knee-jerk fear reaction which colours the dream which is occurring – making it more dark/scary. Once we become more awake and consciously aware of the sleep paralysis, we can reduce the fear and utilise it to OBE.

A lot of my friends know of my interests, and some have even experienced OBEs since I've talked about it with them. I guess I'm lucky that within my current circles of friends, I can be very open about what I believe – in the past friends I used to hang around with would have been a lot more negative about this kind of thing.
Just because I can be open doesn't mean I talk about it all the time, occasionally we might have a discussion about OBEs, other times philosophy etc and yet again other times just mundane and nonsensical discussions/arguments.
Luckily, my Fiancée knows absolutely everything about my beliefs and experiences, and is happy to talk about these things with me. If I couldn't be so open with my partner, I'd perhaps be slightly concerned about our future together.
I'd say tell people who you feel would be interested or receptive, but as with anything in life, certain groups only get to see certain facets of who we are – and just because we experience things doesn't mean we have to tell everyone everything (although with exciting subjects such as OBEs it can be hard not to sometimes).

my question is, do i need to talk to my therapist or an exorcist. and how is this awareness related to normal awareness. and is it crazy if its all just energy anyway?

An exorcist wouldn't be able to do anything for this, and neither would a therapist – unless you are feeling issues about it.
This awareness is normal awareness; it just shows you are being more observant of moment-to-moment detail than people who stumble through life not noticing much. This is generally considered a good thing for people interested in spiritual pursuits.
Even though everything is energy, it's infinitely more complicated then that.
If it's not bothering you, don't worry too much about it. Only be concerned if it starts becoming an issue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6548719.stm