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[broke their solemn pledges]

quote:ever Read Why I am Not Muslim by Ibn Waraq?

I have never read the book, but I have heard him speak on television. Most of his criticisms actually had little to do with the religion of Islam themselves but those who use Islam in today's world to the their own agenda. Despite this, he still makes it seem like these people are the representation of Islam.

I am interested in hearing some of his claims about Islam. If you could express them on this board, I'd be happy to attempt to refute them, or at least clear some things up.

One thing that he kept repeating is the 'intolerance' towards the apostates(those who leave Islam) under the Islamic(fundamentalist) government. For example, when the Iranian Sheikh declared a Fatwa to kill Salmon Rushdie because of his book "the Satanic Verses" and his open bashing of Islam. If you've noticed, most of the Muslims who leave Islam and openly insult it and defame it are not born in Muslim countries and do not grow up with the Islamic lifestyle. EVEN in Syria, and other countries which happen to be Muslim but have a Secular government, the people who leave Islam do not come out and  openly defame it and if they come to a Western country they still do not defame like those who are born in Western Countries.

He also says that the verse: "there is no complusion in religion" only applies to Jews in Christians but the Muslims are required to force people who are not from the 'People of the Book' to embrace Islam.
This is not true for the only time the Muslims were allowed to use force was against the idolators of Arabia who had: 1) persecuted the Muslims and their followers for 13 years; 2)Broke their treaties. The proof of this is in the Chapter Taubah where the so called 'Verse of the Sword' was revealed:

" Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers" [9:13]

and also, this warfaree was not even to all the idolators, but for those who had a treaty with the Muslims and did not break the treaties then they were commanded to respect the treaty:

"(But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. "[9:4]  

And more evidence of this is that Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) told the Muslims to not force the Persians to embrace Islam, although they were idolators; and also the fact that when the Muslims reached India, they did not force the Hindus to embrace Islam but subjected them to Jizya(protection tax) like the other non-Muslims.


And one more note, is that Ibn Warraq is an athiest. He does not completely deny just Islam but completely denies all religions. If Muslims were in power, I am sure he would write a book about "the currupt Christians." It seems to me that he wrote the book simply to make money and for public approval.

quote: I have (another) question. Christianity also does not teach reincarnation. Yet things that I've experienced, particularly in astral travel, tell me that there is such a thing as reincarnation. DJ, you mention that you are interested in OBE. Do you mind my asking if you see a conflict between OBE/Astral projection and the Quran? Just curious how you balance the two. I have my own opinions regarding this issue and the Bible.

39-42. "It is Allâh Who takes away the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep. He keeps those (souls) for which He has ordained death and sends the rest for a term appointed. Verily, in this are signs for a people who think deeply.
"

It is possible that that verse suggests Out of body experiences. Mohamed and I had  a discussion about this very subject and we came to the conclusion that Out of body experiences are supported by the Quran(as being real) yet the idea of other dimensions is not. What people describe  of the Astral is like a dream, yet many people explain this as that the Astral is 'sensitive' to our thoughts. There is not much proof in Astral travel(in my opinion), for what if what you are seeing are just manifestations of your own thoughts?? It is hard for a Muslim to believe in Astral Travel and other demensions.

So reincarnation and whatever you saw that was in association with it could have just been a manifestation of your own imagination in which you were in such a deep state of  mind that it seemed completely separate from you and your thoughts(and real).


The idea of the Jinn supports out of body experiences too in my opinion. When we are in the real-time zone and we see beings of whom who we would not be able to see if we were in physical reality, it is possible it is a jinn.

There is some dispute about whether Out of body experiences are allowed to be induced by our own will. For example, the verse says that it is GOD who takes the souls at the time of death and at sleep.

Yet the Quran specifically doesn't say it is forbidden.

Islam doesn't concern itself with much of these issues. It does not teach man to detach himself from society to learn the truth. For the truth and its arguments are all layed out in the Quran. I have heard some people on this website say that "the truth can not be found in one book and we should not be expected to follow it!" yet they say this without ever setting eyes on the Quran.

The first commandments of the Quran(when Muhammad(sws) was visited by Jibril for the first time) are to read and gain knowledge:

"Read! In the Name of your Lord, Who has created,
Has created man from a clot,
Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous,  
Who has taught by the pen,
Has taught man that which he knew not."
[Surah Al-Alaq  96:1-5]


And then the Quran continues:

"Nay! Verily, man does transgress all bounds
Because he considers himself self-sufficient.
Surely! Unto your Lord is the return."[96:6-8]

And also:

"Nay, but those who do wrong follow their own lusts without knowledge. Who is able to guide him whom Allah hath sent astray? For such there are no helpers. "[Surah Ar-Rum 30:29]

"So set thy purpose for religion as a man by nature upright - the nature made by Allah, in which He hath created man. There is no altering (the laws of) Allah's creation. That is the right religion, but most men know not." [Surah Ar-Rum 30:30]

"Turning unto Him (only); and be careful of your duty unto Him and establish worship, and be not of those who ascribe partners (unto Him) " [30:31]

quote:That's what I thought it may have implied. Does Islam teach reincarnation? I would assume not. Since the implication from the section that I quoted seemed to be death was final. But I could be misunderstanding it.

You understood correctly. []

quote:I have heard of Jinn before, but I'll be honest, I don't really know what they are. Can you elaborate on what they are? Are Jinn something from the arabic culture or Islam or are the two so tightly intertwined that the Jinn are found in both?

The idea of the Jinn was something known to the Arabs before. The Arabs before Islam used to worship Jinns and 'ask permission' from the Jinns before they would enter certain places. When Islam came, the Quran abolished this practice(and told to worship none but God), but interestingly left it that Jinns did exist. The word Jinn means "hidden" and the Quran says that they are made out of "smokeless fire". There are good Jinns and bad Jinns and will be accoounted along with humans on the day of judgement. Islam says they can see us but we can not see them. There is a story(in the Quran) about a Jinn listening to a human recite the Quran and became a believer(after hearing the beauty of it's poetry). It is called Surah Al-Jinn
if you are interested.

Also heres a recitation of the chapter, its very nice:

http://www.alafasy.com/audio/qur2an/ram/072_jin_2.ram

I dont think it matters much. If all of mankind came from Adam and Eve than we are all one race, it wouldnt matter what color they were. Color of the skin is determined by what climate certain groups of people gathered and lived in, generation after generation. From what i know, The Bible doesnt mention what color their skin is, so it wouldnt be right to say they were White, Latino, Black, Asian, etc.

Most scholars do not really have any good interpretation on what the Quran means by 'Seven Heavens', but I would like to note a story about the Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him).

The story is known as the Israa by Muslims, or "night journey" It goes that Muhammad was taken while sleeping by the Angel Jibril and he ascended the "Seven Heavens" in which at the 7th one he met Allah(God). To Muhammad, the journey was long, but in reality when he returned to his home(in the physical reality), it was so quick that the door in his room hadnt finished swinging.

I have always thought of this as an Out of Body Experience.

Sufis are known as "Islamic Mystics", their philosophies are somewhat a mixture of Islam and the Eastern Religions. They are many times rejected by the mainstream Sunni and Shi'ite Islam because of many of the practices of the Sufis(such as praising Sufi priests). Otherwise, Sufiism is very interesting and their philosophies lean towards personal salvation through ones chosen path instead of the mainstream view of salvation through the path laid out by Islam.

I am also a Muslim(who has also been very interested in Out of body experiences btw []. Ill be happy to help answer anyone's questions about Islam.

quote:So my questions:
To me, the first two quotes above sound contradictory. How can God be all compassionate and merciful, and yet also not allow for any respite?

Islam allows a person to come and repent at any time he pleases during his life. If he dies while in disbelief, then after that time then repentence can not be accepted.

The concept is different from concept of being "saved" since Muslims believe that people are born pure and sinless and in a state of submission to God(i.e. Islam) Islam teaches that after people have reached adolescence they will be responsible for their good and bad deeds(and the intention behind the deeds.)

quote:I was baptised Christian and am familiar with that religion. Does Islam also teach that there is a devil, Satan? I thought that was a 'christian thing.'

Does Islam also teach a heaven and hell philosophy similar to christianity?

As Muslims we believe in all the past prophets such as Moses, Jesus, Abraham etc. We believe that they all came to teach the same message unto humanity(to worship one God with no partners), yet the scriptures(Bible, Torah) were corrupted when they got into the hands of men. Muslims believe that Muhammad(peace be upon him) is the final messenger unto mankind and the Quran is the final book which has been revealed to guide humanity.There is a Day of Judgement in Islam in which the believers who do good works are in Heaven, while the disbelievers are in Hell.

Muslims do not believe in the Trinity or Jesus being the 'Son of God'.
Muslims believe that Jesus was a righteous prophet who commanded to worship God, just as the prophets in the past did.

In regards to Satan, Muslims believe in the story, although Muslims do not believe Satan was an Angel, yet he was a Jinn(an unseen creature which has freewill). This is because an Angel(according to Islam) has no freewill and can never deviate from the path of righetousness which God has ordained for them. In no way do Muslims believe that Satan was a fallen Angel, but an unseen creature which has freewill which is known as a Jinn(in arabic at least).

quote:Islam had many questionable practices, such as the circumcision of females, and the negative effects it could have later ie.painful sex,hemohraging, ect. Islam also encourages conversion, as does all religion.
Also, a few records indicate an example that Muhammad was NOT prophet of god material. He encouraged the attack of Mecca, not conversion, simply because they did not beleive him and his testimony about Allah. Im sorry but regardless if it was self defense or not, do you dare say it was without question? A cop that shoots a man is going to hell in his religion. There is no, "I had to", because if a person is truly faithful, they would die for their beleifs. That is why Jesus Christ is dead, he was a martyr, as any prophet SHOULD have been.
Later on, he also remarried multiple times for new sexual partnership. Im unsure on this one, but I am pretty confident in this statement.

The Islamic world is somewhat in their own "Dark Age" as the Christian world was 1000 years ago. These 'genital mutilations' have no basis in Islam whatsoever(these are actually tribal practices which Islam came to condemn). Im sure you understand this already but i would just like to stress it.


Now, Jihad is something very misunderstood about Islam. Muhammad(peace be upon him) and his followers were persecuted for the first 13 years of their mission while they were in Mecca living side by side with the polytheists. They were subjugated to Beatings, torture, killings, sanctions etc. but they continued to preach to the polytheists and stick to their religion. Jihad means to strive, and at that time they were commanded to strive "to pray" and to strive to preach. This persecution and extreme oppression they were subjected to, were just like how Jesus and Moses were persecuted by the strong nations of their time.

The main difference is that when Muhammad and his followers went to Medina the situation became political. Islam is a way of life, not just a belief system. It covers the social, economic, and political spheres(not just spiritual). Muhammad established an Islamic state in Medina(after signing a peace treaty), which became the place where Islam prevailed, spiritually, socially, and politically.

Islam came as a final message to humanity and came to cover all aspects of life, from political to spiritual. The Quran states that it has not left any relgious matter out of Islam and the criterion for good and evil in all aspects of life has been laid down until the Day of Judgement.

When Muhammad established this final example for life and justice(in all matters), the fighting against the Polytheists was only against those who were fighting against the Muslims(or who stole from them et.c), the fighting was to gain back the dignity of the Muslim nation and to continue being able to invite others to Islam until Islam reaches every part of the globe. Muslims are not allowed to force anyone to "believe" or to become Muslim as said in the Quran: "There is no compulsion in religion. Truth stands clear out from error... "[Surah Al-Baqarah: 2:256] There are many verses that state that "if Allah willed, he could have guided all of humanity", and that it is not for a person such as Muhammad to make a person believe(since the matter is in the hands of God)

And in regards to martyrdom, many Muslims were martyred while being persecuted in Mecca(Muhammad was almost martyred many times but saved by miraculous occurences), but if a Muslim dies in battle defending the Islamic homeland and affairs, then he is too considered a martyr.

Now in regards to there being no other Prophet who fought. Didn't David and Soloman fight and establish themselves and their religion in the land? I am not sure if the story is the same but the Quran says(about David) : "So they routed them by Allah's Leave and Dawud (David) killed Jalut (Goliath), and Allah gave him [Dawud (David)] the kingdom [after the death of Talut (Saul) and Samuel] and Al­Hikmah (Prophethood), and taught him of that which He willed. And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief. But Allah is full of Bounty to the 'Alamin (mankind, jinns and all that exists). "[Surah Al-Baqarah: 2:251 ]

quote:As you said before, female abuse is not permitted, but the female side of Koran is still degrading when you think about it, good idea or not. The females are to cover their hair and face, for their beuty is for their family alone, and so a male will not merry her for lust, but for love. To back my previous statement, I do say this, the issues of covering ones hair and face came a while after Islam was established in Mecca, for this was when the Koran was being written. Now the the Muslims have Mecca back, they face it as their "Holy City" to pray.

Women are not required to cover their face. In fact, if you look at the old commentaries(written 900 years ago) on the Quran, it is easy to see that the idea of hijab or "concealment" is very general. The Quran basically says for women to "be modest" so that they aare not molested. This interpretation of being modest is very general, possibly for cultural considerations.

quote:1 a : of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god <divine love> b : being a deity <the divine Savior> c : directed to a deity <divine worship>
2 a : supremely good : SUPERB <the pie was divine> b : HEAVENLY, GODLIKE

In my previous post, I was thinking more like the first definition of divine.

quote:You are so confusing and contradictory toward yourself... If you are so firm with your beliefs, and you see God as flowing within and without us, and see God controling our own will, wouldn't it be safe to say that the universe is God, itself?? Now how dumb would it be to say the Universe is not divine. That would be just like you saying God is not divine.

Well, the universe is governed by laws that are inchangable to us. The only possible answer to the universe's creation is to believe that there is a higher being that is above these laws. You have to understand that the universe is not a 'living being' itself, but mere matter. The laws of the universe are consistent and the universe does not have its own will to break these laws. It is governed by its own laws and the universe itself does not break its own laws. The only possible reasonable answer for matter to come from nothing is an intelligent being to create it. Excuse me if what i just wrote sounds like mumbling because im damn tired... [:O] Also, I have not insulted you once, why do you have to consistently procede to insult me?

quote:You say the Universe is not perfect, you say God is seperate from the universe, yet you fail to explain why. Why would a supposed all being, not inhabit and consist of the ALL?? Do you catch my drift? SAying God is seperate from the universe is also just like saying you are seperate from the universe.

Yea. (Please note that I am not trying to tell you how to think, I am just defeding my position): Our souls are seperate from the universe. We receive information from our senses which are interpreted by our souls, but our souls are literally just consciousnesses that are limited to the input they receive. When we feel a punch in the arm, for example, that is just our soul interpreting what is projected into it through the medium of the body/brain. I find it hard to believe that I came into existence and started experiencing the world, without some kind of higher being causing me to.
 God, in my opinion, is seperate from creation because he is the Creator of the creation. He is beyond the laws. I cant worship the universe and everything itself, although I can recognize that everything in the universe glorifies the greatness of the creator of the universe.

quote:Tell me why the universe is not perfect. It seems perfect to me, it is there, it exists, it simply IS. The universe is a material and non-material existance/whole that lives from a natural course of action, we are dictated by a constant cause-and-affect stream of life. Everything has its reasons for happening. you say, "the moon revolves around the earth, earth revolves the sun, blah blah..." You simply point out the obvious, they happen for a REASON. Scientists could list a thousand other 'laws' or workings of our galaxy and solar system. The universe is EXACTLY the way it is supposed to be, it is perfect. Now if there was no such thing as positive and negative, if in did not have an out, if effects did not have their causes, ALL would have an arbitrary reality, it would be IMperfect. That is not the case.

The above quote lists all the reasons for why I believe in a one unique God. If everything has a reason, there must be a separate will that is behind them. You also list the yin/yang theory which is completely true. That is another unchangeable law of the universe. The fact is: God is the cause, the universe is the effect. God is the planner. The universe is the plan in action. God appoints these reasons, and there must be a separate "thought" for anything to take place.  The universe itself can not be god because it DOES NOT will itself into existence. It is governed by laws that can not be attributed to God Almighty, because He is completely beyond our understanding. If the universe just 'is', then that would mean it and all its matter were always present, in one form or another, and that it was always in movement and creation which seems to hard for me to even comprehend... [xx(]

 

quote:I'm sure if you were to ask Osama bin Laden himself, or any other Al-Queda member for that matter, they would call themselves 130% Muslim. You see them as non-islamic because they kill and commit murder, they sabotage the freedom of innocence. But they would probably see themselves as 'heroes,' getting rid of the 'infedels,' and wiping out more unbelievers.

What does that have to do with anything??

quote:Saddam Hussein has raped the minds of his people and destroyed the way of the Muslim for the most part. I've noticed in translations of announcements, in Iraq, while we were bombing military targets, the Iraqi government was announcing to all: We must protect our leader, We must help our president" over and over and over. What kind of S]-[iT is that?! Shouldn't it be like: "Our leader will protect you, we will find peace, Hussein will let no harm come to your children." Now that would probably be something you would hear here, in the States or something.

Your point??

quote:Islam is a large factor in all the chaos overwhelming humanity as a whole. Religion, alltogethor, must be re-shaped into a more practical point of view.

It is not Islam that is at fault. It is not religion in itself that is at fault. It is the individuals who are at fault. If religion did not exist, the good-natured people would have no ability to grow on their good. If religion didnt exist, there would be no motivation for ANY GOOD PERSON AT ALL, to do ANYTHING about evil. There will always be evil and there will always be rebellious, prideful people who do not care about the feelings and well-being of others. These people are separate from religion. Whether religion existed or not, these people would have always existed. EVERY RELIGION HAS IT'S NUTCASES, BUT EVERY RELIGION HAS HELPED MORALIZE SOCIETY TREMENDOUSLY AND MAKE THE WORLD A MUCH BETTER PLACE WHICH SURPASSES ANY OF THE NUTCASES'S EVIL ACTIONS. If any one of the world's religions did not exist today, the world would be in a much worse shape.

Sorry to say, that this will probably be my last post on this topic, I cant spend any more time arguing over these things. I still have 4 more years of highschool to finish. []

quote:In this context, these "my deity is better than your deity" and "my book is better than your book" discussions are completely moot.

Agreed.

quote:About 3 year's ago I had a friend who was deep into studying Islam. I found the same human sounding "God" as in the bible for the most part.

Its very rare for a Muslim to convert to Christianity. The Bible in Arabic uses the word "Allah" for God also.

quote:Bottom line is the rabbit hole is VERY deep and neither Christianity or Islam come close to touching the surface. NDE cases and quantum physics are both kinda blowing apart the old time "religions"

What kind of beliefs are NDE cases leading to???

There are many scientific implications in the Quran that seem to good to be true. For example:

"Do not the Unbelievers see That the heavens and the earth Were joined together (as one Unit of Creation), before We clove them asunder?" [Al-Qur'aan 21:30]

This very much implies the big bang theory.

There are more but i dont feel like listing them. For example there are implications of the roundness of the Earth(which Muslim scientists had concluded to be true a millenium ago), and there are implications of the development of the baby inside a womb etc. etc. without any mistakes.

What does Quantum Physics disprove?

By the way, this is a very interesting article: http://islamicity.com/Science/quranandscience/relativity/GeneratedFiles/TheRelativityofTimeandtheRealityofFate.htm

I knew I would get a backlash the moment i moved my lips about sanctions... lol

Im really not in the mood to write back to you Gelfling. I was just trying to make the point that no Muslim, righteous or not, forces Islam upon anyone. The Quran's command to keep from forcing Islam on people is to blunt and concrete for anyone to misinterpret.

Ill just comment on this:

quote:They both can be used to subject humanity into slavery and be used for sick actions. Both have aspects that reek of man made rules and human thinking not a God that loves his children.

I agree that both can be used to subject humanity to sick actions. But both do not reek of man made rules and human thinking. The only Islam that most everyone here probably knows is Al-Qaeda Islam, which is not Islam. It is barely Islam. The Islam that 99% of the Muslims of today practice is the Islam that ironically is unheard and seems to have no consideration from any non-Muslim.
I suggest that you goto a local Mosque to learn about Islam and have them answer any questions that you might have. []

   

quote:DJMidgetMan's mentally is like... "Well, I know that answer [insert mumbojumo here].. blah blah..... because the Quran says so!" IS that all you have to go by is the Quran? I find it very insulting for you to be preaching to me about "What God is" and trying to correct me and trying to say it like it is.

I only used one quote from the Quran. I am just expressing my beliefs, which happen to be Islamic beliefs.

quote:We obviously see different versions of GOD, but nevertheless still agree that there is only one GOD. I see GOD as jsut as state of being. God is Order. God is Chaos. God is good and evil. Got is both courteous and sinister, for (I believe) to see God as every thought, emotion, self, the seen and unseen all neatly packaged into a ONE. I believe there is no right way to describe GOD for we look at it from so many different angles. The Universe just IS.

I have thought the same thing many times too. But the truth is, the universe is not divine. The universe is governed by laws that are NOT divine. These laws did not make them selves. The universe did not make itself. The universe is governed by specific laws, and is inperfect order . The moon revolves around the Earth, the earth revolves around the sun, and the sun revolves around the galaxy. Perfect Order . Also, the law of intertia: an object that is in motion, continues to be in motion unless something stops it.  An object that is not in motion stays motionless until something starts it. Once again the universe did not create itself, it did not plan itself out in such perfect precision, and it did not start its own movement. Its these things that lead me to believe that the universe came to be by intelligent design and that God is seperate from His creation.

quote:I believe God is not a single thinking conciousness, but actually exists as all the awarenesses and consciousnesses in the entire universe.

I understand your reasoning and have thought about that myself too.  It fits very well with your other concept, and I respect your opinion. We do have different opinions about the concept of God and they are both worth reflecting on.

quote:I refrain believing in any organized religion that teaches "This way, or the high way."

Most organized religions teach like that. Except for possibly Hinduism(I consider Buddhism as more of a philosophy than a religion.)

quote:Hitler is a perfect example: Me manuplited the minds of the general people, believeing they are superior in race and laws. They saw this as "Right." You and I would probably see this as evil, care to disagree? Hitler would execute innocent people for theyre beliefs. You know that sounds like Islam nawadays, especially with the Al Queda extremists, they all put their beliefs and standards above all others, believing they are "right."

That actually has nothing at all to do with the actions of Al-qaeda. Usamas intentions are purely political but uses a twisted interpretation(which is extremely out of context) of Islam to gather his followers. He does not kill people because of theyre religion. He kills people because the U.S. kills people(1.5 million due to sanctions) and is occupying the Middle East.  Usama is not near in equivalence with the ideas of Hitler. Read Usamas speeches, especially the one after the 9/11 attack and you will know what I mean.

quote:I seriously hate any organized religion. You must learn, adapt, develop your own morals, and not rely on what a book says. Almost religions support the Ten Commandments. Because everyone agrees in the sayings, it seems universally ethical.

Okay. I have read on almost all religions and i have found what i believe to be the truth. I can never dispute the Quran, after deep reflection of all the religions Ive studied, it makes the most sense to me.

quote:DJMidgetMan, those are some mighty big words that I would love to contradict. I could argue the one and only God's name is Jehovah, not Allah. Tell me I'm wrong. How do you know what is right? The only reason you believe what you so believe in is becuase you believe in it! If what you state is the truth of the way of the Muslim, then all participating in the Al-Queda society are going to Hell.

It doesnt matter what God's 'Name' is; its the concept that matters. And yes, acording to Islamic belief, Al-Qaeda would be going to Hell,basically because they give Islam a bad name. Usama USES and twists Islam and its concepts to his own personal goals, which is denounced in Islam.

quote:]"You know what I say? I say the only Will running this world is God's Will, is a bunch of horse crap. If I so choose to throw both of my middle fingers up at the sun and say "I am seperate from the source!," that would be MY will."

According to Islam, your will was given to you by God, and all your power is God-given. According to Islam, He could take your will away from you at any moment at any time he pleases, but once again life is a test, and you will be brought back to know what you had done with your free will.

quote:If God's will really did dictate what goes on in the world and in peoples' lives then that force is very confused and f@cked up! I say this because what kind of force would bring down a Messiah and tell the world what to believe in, saying it's Truth and "The only way," then a thousand years later give a completely different way of law and belief and say, "This is your last chance, you must submit." The way I see it, Muslims are only 'submitting' the existance of ourselves and it is really they who try to impose belief onto others.

[Quran 2:256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error;

No Muslim forces Islam upon anyone. This has rarely ever happened in history, and it doesnt even go on today. There is no Islamic government that forces Islam upon any non-Muslim.

quote:I can't remember what they actually said but it translated to "Only God permitting." I hate that! It is YOU permitting. Are you trying to tell me that world hunger, suicides, the Columbia trajedy, 9/11, terrorist murder, pollution, and killing in the name of religion is all this Allah's Will?!?! There is only the Self's Will. Period. How could anyone argue against that?

Once again, Self will comes from God. The wrongdoers will be punished for what they do. You are not separate from the will of God, because God wills you to have your 'self will' and God still has power over what you do. Wrongdoers will  be punished if they abuse their 'self will'.

quote:You know what I believe?! Muhammad was not even a real prophet!

Thats what you believe.

quote:You see the problem here? REAL prophets had this supposed "GOD" speaking directly unto them. They had special divine powers which they would try to prove these miracles. But nothing of Muhammad is of the like.

You could say that. Or you could say that he was illiterate and he brought to the world the most significant Arabic poetry that ever came into existence, today known as the Quran. And yes according to Islam, he did speak to God. According to Islam, He ascended the Seven Heavens(seven dimensions []) and when he reached the highest one, he spoke directly to God.

quote:I believe the judge of this "life Test" you speak of is NOT GOD or Allah, but it is YOU. YOU look back on what you have accomplished in your life time. YOU judge what is right. And it is YOU who will receive back 3x what you have given. (wicca's rule of 3) The only God I believe in is that of the Self. Non other.

How could you believe in the Self but not in God??? Did you create yourself??? Did you create the universe you are living in right now?? Surely the universe did not create itself, and surely you did not bring yourself to life. I am also very happy that the Wicca religion has a system of punishment and reward, this the basis to striving towards becoming a good person.

I did not mean to offend you or anything, its just that it seemed that you insulted my religion, and you seemed to exclude it as a bad religion from all others by saying: "Or maybe the one and onlyu 'god' really is "Allah" and we are going to be punished for not submissing."

hey what the phak, the one and only is god is Allah.... Allah is the Arabic word for God, and there is no god but God. If you really want to know what a Muslim is, it is someone who submits to God. It is believing that God passes his will over everything, and we are not the ones in control. We should realize that our freewill, our good fortune, our bad fortune, and all our power can not come to be without the will of God.

A Muslim is believing that this world is a test, and we were given our freewill by God to test us. We were given our souls to test us. Whoever does wrong to other people, they are wronging their own souls.
They will taste the evil of what they used to do in Hell.  Those who do good and have faith in God are helping their own souls. They will be rewarded for what they used to do in Heaven.

Jihad means to struggle, not 'holy war'. A martyr is one who fights against oppressors in the way of God. In the way of God simply means: no killing civilians, no killing soldiers who are unarmed or who surrender, and NO RISKING COLATERAL DAMAGE. In the times of Muhammad, jihad was usually fought if the religion of Islam was in danger of becoming extinct. Muhammad's enemies persecuted, oppressed and slaughtered his followers(and tried to kill him), because they wanted to wipe away the message of Islam off the face of the earth.

The Quran in my opinion is the final revelation to humanity, and a mercy unto mankind. Before Islam, Arabia was in complete chaos and anarchy. In a span of about 20 years, Islam turned the Arabs from unfaithful animals into completely civilized human beings. Islam ruled the Middle East in peace for over a millenium(except with a couple attacks from Mongols, Crusaders etc. etc.),. This ended when mainly the British broke up the Islamic empire, and turned the middle east into the chaos it is today.

Hmm... If I was good at projection i would try as much as I could. I just want to know what kinds of things are happening. America constantly suggests that the numbers of innocence in Iraq that will be lost will be very few because of their new "software" which allows for more accurate bombings. I just want to know if this is at all true, and what is really going on over there... [V]

Oh sorry, i meant that i was meditating before i went to sleep, and then i woke up in the morning in a deep trance.

Worship is exploring the non physical and becomes truly spiritual(in my opinion, dont get offended anyone) , under these requirements:

1. The nature of God is not a physical one, you are praying to a spirit or being, that you do not apply a physical image to.  I believe this because if you apply a image to something, it becomes more in your mind, and your own imagination. If you pray to a being that you know sees you, even though you may not see Him,  then your mind becomes clear, and you see things on a more spiritual level.
2. You are fully concentrating...

Feel free to explain your theories on this, i dont want to insult anyone or anything, so dont be offended. Im just offering a theory.

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

I believe God is all knowing, present everyone, nothing escapes Him, and he is all powerful. I believe that he is seperate from creation, and that he has no needs. I believe that God created us out of the mercy of Him, so that we could experience life.
   I believe the belief in God is deep inside ourselves, but we lose it as we get distracted by the evils around us. I believe the believing in God is a natural state of being that everyone is born into..  Yet as we face the evils of society, we forget. I believe that we are born with a test to see if our souls can return back to the belief in God when it is shown to us(through the Bible, the Quaran) and that if we have faith to resist the temptations of life. I believe that God has the power to interfere in our lives, yet if He did interfere frequently, the test would be broken and the existence of God would be so obvious that the test would be meaningless.
   I stated most of my opinion on woship on my previous post on this topic, but I would like to say a couple more things. I believe that we should worship because He gave us life, and gave us the ability to experience life with our senses. If that isn't a good enough reason to worship Him, than I don't kow what is. Refer to my previous post for the rest of my opinion.

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

The benifits of worship are for ourself, not for God... It makes us spiritually pure, and makes us good human beings... It makes us happier because we constantly remember God and Heaven, which makes this life seem less stressfull. Worshipping God makes us modest. I dont think God would force us to worship him, because He is so great beyond our imagination, that he would not 'need' anything from us... Worshipping God is for our own good.

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

I believe that the psychological effects of prayer were placed by God... So many things are placed by God, but most of us just assume: "thats the way things are, and it has nothing to do with a divine source". Well I believe it does. I am a Muslim, and in the Quaran it talks about many things that show that God exists, but that most of us have too much pride to acknowledge them... I dont have enough time to quote all the things but I will as the topic picks up a little more...
       Another thing on the subject of prayer to God.... Most people when they prey have too much doubt in their mind about God when praying, and expect God to give them: "clear proofs" about his existence by answering their prayers.... Well if God did that for everyone, than there would be no point on testing us on this earth to see if we will believe in Him.

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

Sorry that i didnt reply to any of this, I almost forgot that I even posted this...lol... Well....  Cainam_nazier, Ive already had the exact same attitude towards him as you suggested... I talk to him as a friend, I dont try to enforce my views upon him... And yes, he is the same age as me.... And yes, I have been really nice to him, and very tolerant and cooperative... I can tell hes already questioning where he is headed because of this.... But Im not sure of that.... In the summer, one of his 18 year old "Skinhead" friends is going to give him a skinhead tattoo.... and he told me he wants to join a gang... Thats what worries
me...  
    Sidenote:  It probably sounds like Im rambling on with unorganized thoughts, but I havent been able to express myself lately, theres been so much going on....


DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

Thats a good idea.... I'll try it, although i still need help on my projection skills...

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

When I let my mind wonder, it pops up into my head... Last night I think I successfullly stopped it by clearing my mind completely while falling asleep.

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

you say that you should do/think something... is it easier to solve problems while meditating?? or do you think i could envision a peice of music??

DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"

To tell you the truth, my lucid dreams are spontaneous...... But one thing that seems to be common in my lucid dreams is that I become aware only at certain places.... So think of a place that you normally visit in your dreams and tell yourself before you goto sleep that youll be aware if you see or you are in this place...... I suggest you do that for multiple places... Hope it works.....



DjMidgetMan
  "Mind over Matter"