Messages

John wrote The Revelation prior to the official cannonization of the books that we now call the New Testament, so it doesn't seem likely that his admonition about adding to the book concerned the New Testament (since it didn't exist yet).  More likely his admonition concerns his "book" - i.e. The Revelation itself.

When the Roman church finally got around to cannonizing certain scriptures into a "New Testament" they picked and chose among tons of letters and writings and finally arrived at those that would go "in" and those that wouldn't.  

At the time of the Reformation some books were removed from the New Testament - Martin Luther even wanted to get rid of John's "Revelation" but was overruled!  So now, protestant Bibles have one assortment of books in them and Catholic Bibles have another - and if you look back throughout history and across cultures you'll see even more versions of the Bible that do or don't contain various books.

For those who cling to a written law it would certainly be nice if there was always one, unchanging Bible - but alas human tinkering with scripture is historical fact.

It's ironic that although Jesus (and New Testament writers) railed against legalism and adherence to a written law, - that Christianity today is mostly about adherence to the written law (The New Testament) and about enforcing codes of behavior via peer pressure, guilt, violence and legislation.  

Note however, that when Jesus ascended he said he would send us a helper: The Holy Spirit - but he didn't say anything about a new written law!  Note also that Paul, clearly, had no idea that his writings would be bundled up and christened as "doctrine".  Jesus seemed to know that "Doctrine" and "Scripture" were easily used as tools of organized religion to manipulate and control peoples' spirituality - which is why he sought to spiritually empower people to be connectd to the divine via the Holy Spirit inside of them  rather than be subjugated to a man-made "church" which was outside of them.  

Alas, however, that for so many the tendency is still to scurry and hide under a rock when faced with the awesome prospect of knowing God - preferring to let someone else (the "church") deal with God on their behalf and dictate the terms of their spirituality to them.  

(Disclaimer: I'm not saying all churches are bad for all people, but that the tendency for organizations to "control" people is very real, historically, as is the tendency of people to seek approval from an "organization" - and I believe these phenomina are responsible for much of the spiritual malaise we see today.)[]

Beth,

I only found out about this site a month ago, but have enjoyed your posts.  At the risk of sounding prosaic, let it be said that your educated, informed and well-written posts have been beacons of light for the spiritual seeker.

Best of luck on your book! []

What we see in the physical around us is just a snapshot in time in which *God*'s plan is unfolding.  This plan involves elevating the spiritual consciousness of individuals, cultures and the human race in total.  I guess this process could be seen as God bringing about spiritual evolution.  And since different people and cultures are at different levels at different times in history God reveals spiritual principles to them that are meant to nudge them upwards, rather than provide them with "ultimate truth" that they are not yet prepared to handle.

Consequently I believe that the Old Testament was addressed to the Israelites in accordance with where they, as a people, were at spiritually.  They were not yet ready to have individual relationships with God, but rather were conditioned to perceive themselves as being under a group covenent.  Thus, to push them up the ladder of spiritual evolution what was necessary at that time was a system of rules that would move their culture forward a little at a time.  The prohibition against homosexuality, seen in this context, had to do with being a part of a group, and engaging in behaviors that were best for the group as a whole.

Jesus represents the transition from a group covenent to an individual covenent - i.e. the Jewish culture had evolved sufficiently that spiritually, some of them were able to enter into an individual relationship with God.  Thus Jesus' emphasis on living by the Spirit instead of adhering to legalism.  The New Testament writers struggled with this concept and their writings, while certainly having spiritual meaning for us today, were aimed at the culture of 2000 years ago.  So the teachings were more spiritually evolved than those of the Old Testament (i.e. let's not stone and kill people any more), but still contained ideas that we today, being even more spiritually evolved, find distateful (support of slavery, oppression of women, etc.).  

Having had another 2,000 years to grow spiritually, many Christians today are moving into new interpretations that take Biblical teachings much less literally - focusing instead of the spiritual principles and ideas conveyed, and getting even further away from legalism.  Thus we see more acceptance of homosexuality in certain denominations.  But because Christians today cover a wide swath of the spectrum of spiritual evolution there are still those groups that cling to much more literal views.  This is a good thing, because it shows God's plan at work - meeting people where they are at spiritually and moving everyone (individuals, culture's and the human race) forward slowly but surely.  Granted this process occurs slowly enough that in the span of one life we may not see dramatic change in the entire human race, but we can experience dramatic change in ourselves and help to nudge those around us in the right direction.

When God's plan is seen in this light, I believe it demonstrates that the Bible is even more powerful as a teaching tool than historically regarded, because it does not just lend itself to one interpretation but when understood properly with the guidance of the Holy Spirit can speak to Christians at any point along that spectrum of spiritual evolution.

And in a larger sense I believe that the Judeo-Christian religious tradition is just one of many processes that God is using to accomplish the overall plan of spiritual evolution for all humanity.  It happens to be the tradition that I was born into so it is appropriate to me, and yet I can see God's truth being gradually unfolded/revealed in different ways and at a different pace in all cultures.  So while at the lower end of the spectrum world religion's seem quite different, as you move up the spectrum into the more esoteric teachings of Christianity (mysticism), Islam (Sufism), Judaism (Kaballah), etc. - they seem to be describing a very similar God and a very similar process of spiritual enlightenment - so that it's not much of a stretch to see them all converging farther on up the spectrum.  (And incidentally even secular disciplines aimed at discovering truth such as psychology and physics even seem to be following a similar course such that they seem to also be zero-ing in on that ultiamte truth way up at the end of the spectrum).

For me, when I view creation, as well as my own spiritual views and those of my cultural contemporaries and the world over in this light then all of the seemingly unreconcilable things present in creation begin to fit together - kind of like a huge, multi-dimensional, cosmic puzzle slowly assembling itself.

And, ... what were we talking about again!? [] - oh, yeah - homosexuality - so anyway as we personally move further up the ladder of spiritual evolution I believe we become less judgemental and more concerned with what's going on inside ourselves than with what others are doing with their body parts.  

quote:Originally posted by stephen~

Nevermind things that don't exist in the real world, what about when you experience/witness things that do, and they are later confirmed ( the playing card test springs to mind)? How can it possibly be a dream then?

Because when in an altered state of consciousness such as trance, dream, or OBE we have access to the collective unconscious that Jung theorized - and that collective unconsconscious contains what we might consider "supernatural" knowledge of all things.  I think like the story of the 3 blind men and the elephant, that when viewed from a higher/different dimension or perspective we would see that psychology, spirituality and science are all zero-ing in on the same "truth" - but are approaching it from different angles.

So, with regard to this thread topic, I agree that OBEs do not necessarily present us with objective reality.  In an altered state of consciousness we may partipate in a scene where aliens abduct people and hatch various schemes for invading the Earth or whatever.  I would take that as an individual tapping into the unconscious (collective or individual) and that it is not objectively true, but rather a symbolic message sent to the conscious from the unconscious.

In some sense, this must be true because people from all walks of life report visions that contradict each other in their meaning.  How many people over the centuries have reported religious visions indicating the imminent end of the world?  

A particular sentiment that i've read over and over again in the writings of various "mystics" is that everyone, when they gain access to higher knowledge, has a tendency to want to write a book or tell everyone about this secret knowledge that they are now privy too.  It's an understandable and yet misguided result of our egos getting puffed up and blabbing something to the world that wasn't meant for the world - which unfortunately usually has the effect of us missing the actual meaning of the experience or teaching because if we believe that it is meant for everyone else we won't analyze it in the context of our own personal spiritual journey.

In a sense this problem underscores the ultimate "problem of evil" - which is that the ego defends itself against truth because ultimate truth brings on the death of the ego.

Jung asserted that in addition to our individual "unconscious", there is a collective "unconscious" which I would describe as the pool of humanity's remembered experience and thought.  Through various means, such as dreams we can catch glimpses into our unconscious and I tend to think that via our innate spirituality we all tap into the collective unconscious also - especially during altered states of consciousness such as trance, OBEs, dreams, etc.

So yes, I tend to think that dreams and OBEs are just as likely constructions that our unconscious builds for us in order to nudge us in certain directions in our lives.  The building blocks of these messages, can originate either in our personal or cultural unconscious or even from the collective unconscious of all humanity.

Because we are ego driven, we are likely, unfortunately in my view to see most of these experiences as being objectively "real" - i.e. real for all people rather than subjectively meant for us personally to chew on, per se.

That's not to say that we are not in touch with "real" entities outside of us, or that we can not telepathically tap into others' minds or other dimensions - it's just that, in my opinion, we tend to interpret the messages within that experience as something that we must shout to the world as objectively true and relevent to everyone - when I suspect most transcendent and mystical experiences hold spiritual value mainly for that person who experienced them.

Taken in this context, I suspect the astral planes are in some way a manefestation of the collective unconscious, - essentially a vast gathering of knowledge and experience containing many different versions of the "truth".  So when someone says that they were abducted by aliens and told all kinds of secrety knowledge about the origins and future of mankind, - I would suggest that their experience was real but that the resulting information is not objectively real.

I find that the best way to remember dreams is to get in the habit of writing them down each morning.  At first you can't remember anything, and then after awhile you just remember bits and pieces.  After awhile you'll get much better at remembering multiple dreams each night.

Also, when you first wake up and are thinking about the dream, stay still and review it in your mind.  Make a few quick mental notes from which you can reconstruct the dream, for example:   Mom's house...two-headed bear...roller coaster...restaurant.  Then, before going back to sleep again, if possible, write down as much as you can remember in your handy-dandy bedside dream journal!  Even if you don't write it down right away, just having reviewed it in your mind and come up with those little notes will help you to remember it in the morning.

I believe doing this every day greatly increases the chances of remembering not only regular dreams, but lucid dreams and OBEs.

First OBE,

I woke up in the middle of the night and decided to try to induce an OBE.  I think I used various visualizations to try to bring on vibrations (floating, climbing down ladder, etc.) - but the one I know for sure I used that had worked before to bring on vibrational state was that I imagined myself sinking in several steps until I was laying on the floor.  Then I imagined myself rising back up.  I repeated this a few times.  Sometimes when I do this I really *feel* like I'm moving, i.e. I feel an internal movement sensation.  Other times I feel like I'm just trying to conjur up the feeling of internal movement.  This time I felt the internal movement.

Eventually I fell asleep and awoke later (whether 1 minute or 1 hour I couldn't tell you) to the sensation of being spun upside down.  I'll try to describe this feeling more - imagine that you are floating horizontally and your body were to instantly spin upside down as if it were on a spindle - that's what I felt.  After the spin I was on all fours beside the far side of the bed (my wife's side, not mine) - and I knew I was "out".  My wife was muttering a little, and moving around (not sure if it was real or imagined) and so my initial thoughts were that I didn't want to disturb her or wake her up.

I stood up and decided to go through the wall, out onto our deck.  I went through the wall and remembered a description of the feeling I had read earlier that day - that it felt like going through wet cardboard, and I thought to myself, "hmm.  I guess it does".  Once out on the deck I began flying away, only I don't remember trying to do this it just happened.  And the deck, although mostly the same as our "real deck" had planters with flowers around the edges which in reality aren't there.  Almost as soon as I flew over the deck railing I was back in my body and awake.

Although I wasn't that lucid and the experience didn't last long, it was very interesting in that it validated the experience, like "ah, yup - if you do all of this stuff you do eventually get out of your body!" []

Maybe this will bring health care costs down![]

First let me say I'm no expert, having just started attempting AP a few months ago (6-8 OBEs in last 3 months or so).  However it sounds like you were very close to getting out.  

I've never had as shocking of astral sounds and sensations as you've had so I can only tell you what the books say - ignore them and calmly work on your exit techniques, whether it be "rolling out", sitting up, floating up, or whatever.  I know that's easier said than done, - yesterday while reading Astral Dynamics one passage said something like "...you may experience clammy hands pulling on you and voices that sound evil or demonic and visions of monstrous faces...but just ignore them" - yeah, right!

But anyway, it sounds like you were on the verge - keep going.[]

Well for starters, plug the number into a reverse phone directory such as this one: http://www.reversephonedirectory.com/ and it might tell you who the phone number belongs to, address, etc.

quote:Originally posted by MiStACoRn

That's interesting... I see a lot of people hyping it up to be one of the greatest experiences ever.. and about how realistic they feel.. I think you're the first person I've seen to have posted that they feel more like a dream than anything else after you wake up.

The few lucid dreams I've had have been bizarre simply because it's like "Hey, I'm dreaming and I'm awake inside my dream!"  but other than that they haven't been awesome, mind-blowing experiences. Although to be fair, just like OBEs I get the impression that it takes practice to become more lucid and to keep lucidity while in those dreams.  So if I were to have enough opportunities to practice I think I'd get to the point where I would have much more amazing experiences.  []

quote:Originally posted by MiStACoRn

Wouldn't I remember if I had a lucid dream?  I mean from what people are saying it feels just like being awake.. and I can pretty much recall what happened to me for the past few days...  Are they harder to remember than real-life experiences?

From my experiences, lucid dreams are still dreams and so remembering them is more like remembering a dream rather than remembering something from waking reality.  However, I do think you're more likely to remember a lucid dream than a normal dream because when you first wake up from it instead of going back to sleep you'll think about it for awhile.

Also, not all lucid dreams are equal.  In some you'll be "more lucid" than others.  And even if you are lucid the dream may de-evolve into a normal dream. Also, in some lucid dreams you'll be able to control what happens and in others you'll be lucid but still not actually controlling what happens.

My advice is after having a lucid dream, write it all down as soon as you wake up and collect your thoughts.

Good luck! []

And lest I give the impression with my last post that I'm sympathetic to this alien interview stuff, let me state, gently, that I think it's a whacked delusion.  Sorry, but these days with the internet anybody can post anything and get "followers".  Just on Astral Pulse there are the Zetas who claim to channel some aliens from outer-space, and another thread that affirms the Thiaoobu Prophecy (different aliens) - and various other alien related stuff.

I take more of a psychological approach.  When in altered states of consciousness we can connect with bizarre things - but I believe that our psyches create the constructs - i.e. is it an angel, an alien or a fairy...and was it a space ship, or a building, or an underground cave, etc.  To objectively state that these things are literally true and apply objectively to everyone is ridiculous.  Also, I believe that other things - like this alien interveiw - could be either pure fiction, or the product of psychological delusion on the part of one individual.  I wouldn't believe it if my Mom told it to me so I certainly won't believe some anonymous "alien interview" pulled off an alien-themed web site.

[]

quote:Originally posted by Xelios

Then there are the cold hearted s.o.b's who enjoy tryng their hardest to shoot down mediums and other people with psychic abilities.

Unfortunately, I think psychics are like lawyers and tv preachers - 99% of them give the other 1% a bad name! []

As for why so few people even explore anything psychic I attribute it to the onset of both rationalism and materialism.  Unfortunately people tend to be sheep.  We tend to believe whatever we're told or whatever others tell us is true.  So, when it was more common to believe in the mystical, people just believed and thus had more encounters with the mystical.  With the onset of rationalism in the last 100 years or so, we tend to only believe in those things that science gives us permission to believe in.  If scientists were to somehow prove the reality of astral projection tomorrow, you'd have a ton of people learning to AP within the year.

And as for materialism, people used to be alot more connected to the land and the stars and the sea.  They somehow understood themselves as part of a living world, rather than just a race of superior beings living on top of the world.  But when you've packed your day full of computers and video games and fancy cars to wash and a gazillion tasks to be performed each day - who's got time to contemplate the cosmos?  And then, when you finally do get a moment of quiet time, - wouldn't you know it's time to change the batteries in your Billy Bass!

And I don't think it's that only some people have the capacity for increased spirituality (or psychic activity) - I think it's just that most are too busy. oblivious and conditioned to even look into it.

quote:Originally posted by MiStACoRn

 I was wondering if some of you had a problem getting started with Lucid Dreaming, and if my dream recall becoming better and having more vivid dreams was a sign that I was getting closer to having an LD?  Any input would be appriciated.

yes, I think that means you're getting closer.  However, I actually found it easier to begin having OBEs than lucid dreams.  When I began trying to have lucid dreams I tried for about a month - every day doing those "reality checks" and reading lots of lucid dream stuff.  And I never had one.  Then I stopped trying and a month or so later I had one!  Now it seems like a couple times a year I'll have one without trying.

What was frustrating for me was that it seemed so out of my control when I would have one.  Often I'd remember dreams with obvious signs that should have clued me into the fact that I was dreaming, but I missed them (i.e. it just didn't seem weird that all my teeth were falling out!).

But with OBEs, which I would have thought to be more difficult, it only took me a few weeks to have my first one - and less effort.

It's probably different for everyone though, and clearly the result is different.  My OBEs so far have been limited mostly to exploring around my house, - except for two which in retrospect may have been lucid dreams because although I *thought* (while it was happening) that I was having an OBE I didn't actually remember getting out of my body.

i think if you keep trying for the lucid dream it will happen when you least expect it.  Keep in mind that we probably all have more dreams each night than we actually remember, so it's possible you've already had a lucid dream!  

Don't give up.[]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff_Mash

2) Take many astral breaths.  When you're out, concentrate on your astral breathing.  The deeper you breath in, the more vivid and strong the experience is (at least for me).  Also, there is usually a calming affect when you breath, and this seems to stabilize the excitement that you usually feel when you're flying around the place!

Good tip, - thanks!

Also, I read a bit in Astral Dynamics just now during my lunch hour and I notice that RB recommends glancing at astral hands every few minutes to keep lucidity.  I'll try both of these tips the next time!

And Zeke,

- yes RTZ is Real Time Zone, as mentioned, and in case you're not familiar with that term it's Robert Bruce's term (from his book, Astral Dynamics) for the near-physical environment you are in during an OBE - the environment that seems to replicate all of the stuff you would expect to find in the physical (although with the obvious tendency to morph into different environments).  So when you get out of your body and start running around your house or flying around your neighborhood, you're in the RTZ - as opposed to projecting to an actual astral plane.

[]

quote:Originally posted by asstray85

...LSD messes with your head, you see and hear things that simply arent there, imaghes, sounds, etc, created by your brain, and of course the possiblility of a spiritual experience.  DMT on the other hand is purely spiritual...

Just to clear this up, - The chemical composition of DMT and LSD are very similar which is why they have a simialr effect.  They both do a whammy on the pineal gland.  The pineal gland (located near the top-middle of the brain) is considered by consciousness sorts to be the "seat-of-the-soul", i.e. where consciousness resides.  It's no coincidence that it's location in the brain coincides with where the Crown Chakra is.  The pineal is extremely sensative to chemical effects and has a membrane around it that regulates very closely what chemicals can come into contact with the pineal.  Typically, seratonin (mood regulator) is about all that can get through this membrane.  The body does produce tiny amounts of DMT (maybe even produced by the pineal) but nowhere near what you would get by actually smoking, injecting (experiments were done on this in the 60s) or drinking DMT (in the form of Ayahuasca or another concoction).  Apparently, however, chemicals classified as "tryptamines" (DMT and LSD both) can fool the membrane around the pineal and once acting upon this gland create a variety of similar effects.  So to say one is hallucinagenic and the other, spiritual, is not founded in science or research certainly.

There's a book (look on Amazon) called "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" by an MD named Rick Strassman - in which he discusses clinical research in the 60s done to evaluate the effects of DMT and to evaluate it's potential benefits in the area of psychotherapy.  Essentially he had a variety of volunteers, all familiar with use of hallucinagens, and he injected them with increasing doses of DMT in a research environment.  Injecting DMT produced a fast, hard trip.  Milder doses just caused hallucinations and larger doeses caused the participants to perceive that they had "transcended" reality or left their bodies.  Many reported coming into contact with "beings", who in many cases seemed to know them, and often acted surprised to see them (as in "what the heck are you doing here, now").   Surprisingly, the forms that these beings took tended to fall into three categories; aliens, insects, and clowns!?  

Another book I read, "Ayahuasca: Human Consciousness and the Spirits of Natures", by Ralph Metzner, Ph.D. discussed the effects of DMT on dozens of people who used Ayahuasca as part of a South American religious ritual.  Those he interviewed were mainly Americans who went to South America to participate in such a ritual.  Since they consumed it in the form of a drink, their "trips" had a slower onset and laster longer.  And because of the setting (spiritual ritual) and their expection (it was described to them as the "serpent" drug and they were told to expect visions of snakes and serpents) they typically reported more mystical results involving serpents and snakes.  (Makes one wonder whether it's reputation as "the serpent" is a psychological association to the snake in the Garden of Eden being the bearer of knowledge, since this brew also is reputed to bring one to greater knowledge of themself, but I digress) Typically these visions were interepreted as connecting them to some sort of divine power in order to help them work through some sort of issues they were having in their lives. The participants generally all had very positive reviews of the experience.

Anyway, - interesting books.[]

I think I hear your mother calling.

quote:Originally posted by jc84corvette

Remember, the interview was between a Reptillian and a human in real life, real time NOT in a AP session. If it was in a AP session then he wouldn't be able to write it word for word.

However he received the information it seems like he was in an altered state of consciousness.  It looks to me like he was "online" so not APing when he received the initial communications (from the alien and then from the dark-haired man).  But when he actually went to the space ship he said that he intended to "journey out", but since their wasn't time apparently he "projected his awareness" - I took that to mean astral projection.  Probably we need additional information from Tayesin on that.

And I should make clear that I don't mean to impune anyones integrity here or deride anyone, but rather suggest that considering that extraordinary implications that would result from interpreting this experience literally it would seem prudent to ask a lot of questions and consider other alternatives.  Toward that end, Tayesin I'm curious:

Q: Have you had communication with the "normal alien" prior to this experience?

Q: Have you had communication with any other reptilians prior to this experience?

Q: Prior to this experience what were your beliefs with regard to aliens?

Q: Do you believe that this experience should be taken at face value - i.e. there really are alien bases around the world and there really is some sort of alien plan being played out, of which you are apprently a part?

Q: Do you believe you may be an alien?

Q: Do you believe that this experience pertains to all people and that there is anything the rest of us should do in light of this information?

Q: What are your spiritual religious beliefs and history, and how do you reconcile this experience with those?

Q: What can you tell us about your guide?

Q: Was this in fact an astral projection and for how long have you been doing AP?

Q: The communication that you received while "online" - have you received that type of communication before and if so how often do you get them?

Thanks.[]

In my humble opinion, our minds/consciousness "interprets" astral experiences, creates certain constructs and then presents the information to us in a format that we can understand - like a story, but often times dreamlike and bizarre.  Throughout history, prophets, holy people, and psychics have had "visions" that fall into these categories.

Therefore I'd be extremely wary at taking these things at face value.  

Consider also that the "Zetas" out here claim to be in contact with some sort of alien race, which is kind enough to answer a gazillion of our questions provided we submit them and accept answers through their official medium or whatever.  This of course, smacks of someone creating their own delusion, interpreting it as "real" and then setting about to get followers - essentially inserting themselves into our psyche's as the intermediary between us and God.  This is no different than any number of religions and cults out there.

And let's not forget the Thiaoouba Prophecy (which is also discussed on a thread out here).  In that one, a guy from Australia was taken to a distant planet by aliens and told of the secrets of our past yadda yadda ...  It's got more holes than swiss cheese but yet there are people who take it for truth.  But in my opinion it's just another individual delusion projected onto the world thanks to the handy dandy internet.

And there's the book God's Gladiators by Stuart Wilde (I only read the excerpt).  The author suggests that there is a substructure underlying reality called "The Sphere" (think "The Matrix") and that everything we are, think and know including religions and probably all of this alien stuff is just fake information we're being fed, but that in reality we're just being held prisoners in "The Sphere" so that our etheric energy can be sucked.

I'm not even interested in UFOs and that kind of stuff and I've run across a variety of these things that all contradict each other.  I bet if I spent a day on the web I could find hundreds of such stories/theories.

That is why I generally believe that each person should search for truth and follow the search where it leads.  But when someone spins a fantastical type yarn that doesn't jive with my experience and seems earily similar to any other number of such yarns I can only regard it as that individuals mind spinning a yarn for them.  To present Astral experiences to others as anything close to reality (i.e. John's Revelation perhaps) is misguided if you ask me (no offense Tayesin).  
[]

I read a couple of books a few years back having to do with "religious" or transcendent experiences induced by DiMethylTriptamine (DMT), the hallucinagneic chemcial in Ayahuasca (similar in chemical structure to LSD).  It seemed to allow the user's consciousness to transcend, but what the user perceived was highly dependent on what they were looking for and expecting.  Those who used Ayahuasca as part of a South American religious ritual were expecting imagines characterized by mystical serpentine visions and that's generally what they saw: mystical visions with snakes and serpents in them.  

But participants in a university study in the states when injected with DMT tended to see aliens, insects or clowns (of all things).  Since I don't believe that the astral or other "realities" are actually populated with metaphysical clowns I must conclude that what the participants are observing is energy in a variety of different forms.  Their subjective imagination/consciousness lends subjective meaning to that energy.  

I would conclude from this that Tayesin's mind, spirit or even unconscious is what is lending subjective meaning to his astral experience and that whatever meaning is present is meaningful only to his particular life situation.  All of us have so many desires buried in our unconscious that we are totally unaware of and it's quite possible that this alien scenario is some sort of message from the subconscious.  

Who among us doesn't harbor a secret desire to be important, to be "the chosen one", to be the repository of "secret" information from God, aliens, or whomever - information that pertains to nothing less than the fate and future of mankind!  These sorts of fantasies are planted in us from the time we're little - by cartoons, books and movies (Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, etc.).  It's only natural that these sorts of fantasies would use a highly pliable medium such as the astral to play themselves out.

So again, not to burst anyone's bubble here but we're not talking about reality.  If we really seek to understand this "vision" we should be learning more about Tayesin's background and situation so that we can try to analyze what it symbolizes in his life and what hidden message is being presented to him.

Last night I woke up to some slight vibes and I kind of just knew that whatever conditions were necessary were there for an OBE, and sure enough I was able to sit up, but then I couldn't get any further.  Right at my tailbone area I felt pain whenever I tried to get the rest of me out - if felt like the more I forced it the more the pain would be.  So I just sat there and focused energy on that area and took the opportunity to examine my astral arm in the mirror beside the bed.  Then after a minute or so I was able to get out.  

I got the impression (maybe from something I read out here) that pain somewhere along the spine would mean that that particular energy center didn't have proper energy flow or something - but I'm not sure if that would apply to arms, hands, side, etc. []

quote:Originally posted by Michael_E

...If you find yourself laying in bed for hours concentrating till beads of sweat fall down your forehead but not getting any results...

LOL! Been there, done that!

I'm sure there are a gazillion books that have similar angles, but a couple that I've read are "Putting on the Mind of Christ" by Jim Marion (which I've mentioned out here before) and "The Road Less Travelled" by M. Scott Peck.

The latter is a 70's era self-help type book that essentially equates spiritual growth with pscyhological wholeness.  The author however, pretty much describes wholeness through the myopic lens of a psycholtherapist, so his commentary tends to marginalize spirituality as if it were just another way of describing the psyche.  So while I found it interesting I thought the author was in over his head when he attempted to address the spiritual side of the human psyche.

Marion essentially starts with Ken Wilber's (well-known philosopher/mystic/integral psychologist) model of consciousness and uses it to describe the specific case of the Christian's path to spiritual enlightenment.  

I tried a couple years ago to read some of Wilber's stuff but it was over my head.  Since then I've read a bit more widely and might go back and attempt the Wilber material again.  But in a nutshell what he asserts is that individuals, societies and humanity are all in the process of spiritual transformation and that each of those entities is somewhere in the process of being perfected and that the various stages in this process (his levels of consciousness) begin with the Magical and end with total enlightenment which I think he calls the "non-dual" consciousness.

Marion would assert that the Bible and other Christian-related spiritual writings, being inspired by the Holy Spirit are imbued with multiple meanings pertaining to each of these levels of consciousness (understanding of spiritual things).  A primitive culture (Magical level of consciousness) has only a superstitious understanding of spiritual truth and would see Jesus' death on the cross as a human sacrifice to hopefully appease an angry God (like throwing someone in a volcano).  Mythic level believers (most fundamental Christians who take the Bible more or less literally) will see Christ's death as a blood sacrifice that takes the place of animals sacrifices to purchase atonement for all of our sins.  At some higher level (I'm not sure which one) we come to see Christ's death as symbolically representing the sacrificial laying down of the ego in order to usher in the "Christ consciousness" in ourselves.

So essentially the Holy Spirit is working to move all people, cultures and ultimately humanity closer to completion (spiritual truth) in a step-by-step manner and this process is just part of God's plan and has been in motion for as long as humans have walked the Earth.  And as part of this plan the scriptures have been endowed with the ability to speak to us at whatever level we're at to nudge us toward the next higher level of consciousness.

I'm not sure how much of that Jung would agree with, but he would assert that the deep and hidden meanings in all spiritual writings are a manifestation of the collective unconscious bubbling up with the express purpose of driving humanity toward enlightenment, which I guess he would describe as the colletive acknowledgement and integration of the collective unconscious with the conscious so that like an individual, when the process is compelte humanity will no longer have a "mask" and a "shadow" in opposition to each other but rather an integrated soul without conflict.  Jung would suggest that the archetypes (shadow self, suffering messiah, etc.), dreams, synchronicities, mandelas and the like that show up in our art, literature and culture are then, signposts and symbols from the unconscious (individual and collective) pointing us toward higher consciousness (individually and corporately).

Jung, being born into a family of preachers (unlike Freud who was more or less an atheist and had to describe the human condition without the benefit of spiritual explanations) described himself as being on the radical left wing of Protestantism, and more or less describes spirituality and psychology as two sides of the same coin.  His body of work in addition to the theories of Maslow more or less gave birth to today's transpersonal psychology which is the merging of spirituality and psychology.

[]

Reading this thread must have had some effect on my unconscious because I had a dream about the incredible Hulk last night!  I don't remember that much about it and it wasn't a lucid dream, but I was a musclebound guy whose job it was to protect someone (not sure who, it might have even been another aspect of myself).  Anyway at some point this other person is supposed to meet with someone and I'm to go along to protect them.  When I first see this other person they are a massive, musclebound, shirtless guy and I think "Wow, this guys much bigger than me, it's going to take everything I've got to defeat this guy."  And then I realize that he's the Hulk and he's going to transform into that raging, violent thing from the movie trailers and I realize there's no way I can defeat him and I start tyring to think of a "plan B", per se.  But then I woke up. []

I'll try to rent the movie this weekend and see what happens - I'll have to try to set my intention to dream about the Hulk and recognize it in my dream and become lucid.  

Need,

You are right when you say that no written material can adequately represent the reality of these painful spiritual transitions.  We tend to think that a spiritual transition should somehow *seem* spiritual, but from what I've read that is not necessarily the case.  

Like you say, for the spiritual person these transitions are often times when your beliefs are being uprooted and drastically revised. It's also a time when you may not even necessarily feel close to God and you may think you are in a spiritual dry spell.  There may also be various social, physical or other problems seemingly unrelated to spirituality.  These however, are in fact side-effects of the Holy Spirit working to bring about a transition to a new level of spiritual understanding (consciousness).

For those who aren't spiritual seekers, turmoil in one's life may just be the natural consequence of bad decisions but I believe that for those who are spiritual seekers such problems are very possibly related to spiritual growth.