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I'm one who sees this all as Magick and magical all at the same time. I am also one who sees it as science. Until EVERYONE is "doing it", "it" will not be natural or normal. I understand the argument that everyone projects and that most aren't aware. I would like to stress here that there is a particular component missing in many discussion and that is specifically of "Magick". Intentional projection is a work of the will with intention and imagination and sometimes force - all are legs of the magickal "table", three of which allow it to stand. It is the intention here that separates the practitioners from what is usually considered normal or natural.

It IS what we are supposed to be able to do. There is particular work that can be done when projecting and it falls directly within the bounds OF Magick - causing change to occur according to the exercise of one's WILL. To my understanding, THAT is a close definition of Magick. I'm not talkin Harry Potter crap here either. I am referring to the "Great Work" which we each undertake daily to better understand and direct our individual place in the Universe. After reading nearly all of Frank's PDF I would conclude he was greatly successful in his Great Work, he just simply would not have referred to it as such (once again I am only supposing as I really don't know the man).

A great explanation of proper meditation would be to divulge what can actually BE accomplished with the process and so further encourage the initiate to pursue self-fulfillment.

The Astral environment is the BEST place, IMHO, to cause positive growth and change in ones life - once again, the true goal and outcome of Magick.

I have no idea what it is, I'm inclined to think it is a chakra. I don't do chakra work so I wouldn't know. It is something I can feel in the back middle of my head and "energize" or increase focus on. When I increase focus on it I get rushes through out my body that are so intense I feel like I'm going to die if I increase them to anymore of an extent. Even now I can feel it and focus more on it.. I'm just not sure its safe or not to push it to its max as when I do it feels like I'm about to force myself out of my body or something due to the amount of seemingly insane pressure it creates. Also in my head it feels like its silently roaring.

Is this constant or does it come and go? Is there pain involved? Is this something you have created through a process like meditation? Can you move this "feeling" to other areas of your body? Have you ever or are you afraid to phase or project from your "body"?
Sounds like you may have an opportunity to experiment.

I think it has something to do with "sleep paralysis and trance".  

See "Noetic Theory". That is science. I don't know of "scienceism" but am always interested in what I don't know.

I personally tend to favor the traditional esoteric views but that is my history. What the future holds I will have to discover!

"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
Albert Einstein

You are talking of two different things as if they are the same. I was not talking about the "personal" experience a child can have, but HOW THE CHILD APPROACH THE SAME. This you can see with a little experiment. A little child approach the "method" in a total different way as we adults are accustomed to. First the child doesn't need many self-impositions on what works and what not. It is as if he already knows without a doubt that what you are talking about CAN be done. This changes completely the way the experience is approached. One of the differences is, in fact, that a little child needs at most a "daydream" focus of mind to project.

Again, don't believe it? Fine. Still this is an OBJECTVIE truth that anyone can ascertain for themselves. I'm not talking about what the child SEES OR DOES. I'm talking about how the child APPROACH the experience. Two different things, you see.

What the hell does this have with what I said is beyond me, really.

Thought you might see what I posted awhile back. There might be common ground in a response from you if you give it some thought. I dunno if the link works. Read it and comment please.

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_projection_experiences/kids_say_the_darndest_things-t31673.0.html;msg258410#msg258410

And the comment on my dog was in regards to this dilemma -
ob·jec·tive (b-jktv)
adj.
1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3.
a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices: an objective critic. See Synonyms at fair1.
b. Based on observable phenomena; presented factually: an objective appraisal.
4. Medicine Indicating a symptom or condition perceived as a sign of disease by someone other than the person affected.
5. Grammar
a. Of, relating to, or being the case of a noun or pronoun that serves as the object of a verb.
b. Of or relating to a noun or pronoun used in this case.
n.
1. Something that actually exists.
2. Something worked toward or striven for; a goal. See Synonyms at intention.
3. Grammar
a. The objective case.
b. A noun or pronoun in the objective case.
4. The lens or lens system in a microscope or other optical instrument that first receives light rays from the object and forms the image. Also called object glass, objective lens, object lens.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ob·jective·ly adv.
ob·jective·ness n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

-----VERSUS-----

sub·jec·tive (sb-jktv)
adj.
1.
a. Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world: a subjective decision.
b. Particular to a given person; personal: subjective experience.
2. Moodily introspective.
3. Existing only in the mind; illusory.
4. Psychology Existing only within the experiencer's mind.
5. Medicine Of, relating to, or designating a symptom or condition perceived by the patient and not by the examiner.
6. Expressing or bringing into prominence the individuality of the artist or author.
7. Grammar Relating to or being the nominative case.
8. Relating to the real nature of something; essential.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

sub·jective·ly adv.
sub·jective·ness, subjec·tivi·ty (sbjk-tv-t) n.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Philosophical debates are one thing but blatant definitions are another. I still am interested in your objective proof. Like I said, I'm not denying it exists, I just have not read anything which satisfies my criteria for objectivity.

We'll get there I'm sure.

Was I being insulting?

I thought I was encouraging!

I flatulate empirical poof.

As I said this argument is not "totally" subjective as you think it. There are also "objective" truths to talk about. Problem is that it is impossible to ascertain them in a forum, but this I thought was a given fact. The only thing you can do here as "proof" are examples, nothing more.

However if you think a forum as a background to "teach" formally experiences or demonstrating facts I think one should be a bit silly. I'm using the "mean" in the best way I can. However, I repeat, there are also objective proofs. One of them in this case is watching a little child doing what we call "projection". Maybe many self-impositions and pretentions on what and what cannot be will be simply removed just by this little experiment. It's not that difficult, isn't it?

My "karma" keeps dropping.

I still am wondering what type of objective "proof" can be managed. I'm not doubting it could be so, I just haven't heard the answer to my question. "watching a little child doing what we call "projection"" - I'm sorry but - WTF? Unless you can crawl into the mind of the child you have no freakin way of knowing what is going on in their little head. Sorry, but you don't.

I'm watching my mama mastiff, Mathilda, dream right now. She's twitchin and whinin and apparently havin a ball. Is she projecting? In the astral doggy realm? Who knows, but I'll tell you that my observation is that she is responding to some internal stimuli. That's the best objective information I can confirm. She is definitely not "paralyzed", she moving all over the floor. LOL.

Oh well, I don't think these forums are for proofs unless you're going to the island or figuring out what picture I have hanging on my wall. These forums help me because of the "discussion". The stories. The weird experiences that ring true because I know what it feels like or have experienced something similar.

I'm going to go lay down and fly for awhile. It will be a purely objective experience I can assure you.

Thanks for keeping this thread moving.

the issue of entirely subjective things never came up. We're talking about projection in this thread

No kidding? I though that was what I was talking about. "Evidence based facts". How is "projection" anything BUT subjective. Unless we meet each other in the astral what do we have? A discussion.

This thread started with discussion of brain waves didn't it? I still want to know what brain waves and projection have to do with anything. I'm serious. I'm not doubting here. Just trying to learn more.

Thank you Xanth. Im getting tired of people saying Im wrong for giving my opinion, yet backing up their claims with nothing but their opinion? I guess some people dont understand logical argumentation.

THAT type of discussion is one to avoid, hurt feelings. Don't deny it! Love your feelings! Its ok to cry some times but not ok to cry ALL the time.
I really want someone to agree to disagree. Not disagree to agree. I apologize but I have suddenly felt the need to return to illogical argumentation. "Stirring the ethers" as it were.

I hope you do as well! Greetings!

Jump right in with both feet!

Enjoy

Talk of proof and evidence. How exactly do you provide proof or evidence of something that is almost entirely subjective? Just asking. I mean you might be able to pull some validation trick - "Yeah dude, yesterday I projected to your house to see if you could see me but you were too busy masturbating to anime porn on your computer. So, yeah, I guess you didn't notice me but then you didn't notice your neighbor across the street watching you with her binoculars either." Your friend might not believe you unless it were fact but even then might not admit it to be true. The neighbor would be the one to give you the validation but she might not admit to anything either. You might not want, at that point, to admit anything yourself.
Personally, I think the discussion of AP alone is a sticky wicket. Unless the other person has similar experience or understanding you stand the risk of appearing VERY strange. I appear very strange anyways so it does not matter so much to me. It is interesting to read here of some people getting very upset and sarcastic. How does that benefit anyone. It benefits me only because I enjoy the flame. I am still a troll I guess.
Captain, that wasn't you on the computer any more than I was the neighbor with the binoculars.

I better find a new thread. I wouldn't want anyone to rip ME a new one. I like my old one just fine.

Forgiveness is your lesson here. Revenge will perpetuate your situation into further negativity and loss. Let it go. Love the lesson you have been given and move on. There is much more in this world. Be better than it and it will pass.

Yes you can.

You haven't said what technique you are using. How are you setting yourself up for success? As Chubysnow said there are many techniques and resources available.

What are you trying to achieve? What are you "wait"ing for?

LOL. Glad I wasn't the only one out of the loop. That is fun.

Your description of events is very encouraging. I get chills just reading. Motivation for me as well.

Thanks for sharing!

Pslilibus, in jeff warren's book The Head Trip there is a section with spiegel, it's basically a transcript of him hypnotizing warren. warren was unreceptive -and very skeptical- to previous hypnotic suggestion, until he met spiegel. spiegel performed a pretty impressive hypnotic demo on warren. after hearing that session i understand how the nature in which the hypno-trick works could cause any psychiatrist to make his 'sperm and egg' comment, but i prefer to believe a 'higher self' needs to be considered.

if i understand your point correctly, i would agree -nearly all scientists are impervious to the suggestion of a 'soul'.

Thank you, yes that was my point. I work with MD's. I have worked around "scientists" and researchers. Sometimes they are stuck in the biological process, ie. hypnosis is tied to the brain matter only, sperm and egg make you who you are - nothing more, ect. I think there is so much more that some are afraid of admitting to protect their reputation. I don't know Spiegel or his work so I cannot speak for him. I simply found this comment suspect. The idea that eye roll may indicate hypnosis ability may be a very valid point though, IMO.

I am a scientist only in AP. Probably more of an explorer though. The last frontier?

Captain, I did not say you were wrong. I think you are right because it works for you. Your language works for you. I am happy for you and your thoughts here. I appreciate what you have to say. I am sure it will benefit someone. I only have issues with the language ALL use, including myself. That is my only point. ALL of my points have been utterly logical.

No one should be "frustrated". I'm not. I doubt any of you others are either. The only frustrated ones are people who are struggling with the process and wade through countless terms and techniques which boil down to basically the same friggin thing.

At least we are all speakin da ingles here.

Apparently.

Let's get some shoes!

I'm wearing BOOTS.

Still feeling mutinous, Captain!

I am not paralyzed when I purposefully project. My wife has heard me talk and seen me make small gestures when I am OBE. She said it freaked her out. Said my voice sounded like I was under water...?

If I awaken from a dream and notice sleep paralysis I can use the opportunity to project and have done that many times. I am only saying I do not pursue paralysis as an accompaniment or precursor to an OBE.

"Now I've made a 180° turnaround. Today I believe that the major determination of who we are as people is pretty much decided when the sperm meets the egg." Spiegel

Sounds more like he did a 360.

When I think of the sheer multitude of mind-shattering shrooming profundities...

I see...

Thanks for the background info I'm all better now.

Exit technique?

I would hope you DO bother. Hell, I'm soaking this stuff up. Love the pictures/diagrams. Don't not bother on my account.

Still don't get efil though.

However, also in this case, the obstacle is self-imposed by the actual "method" used. If other means are used the paralysis is neither acknowledged and in many cases neither needed, also at beginning. There are many ways to obtain what is called an OBE or AP, and the sad truth is that many times beginners actually reading certain things create self induced obstacles and impositions.

This is one of those. What's worse is that actually trying to bringing on a "paralysis" is much more difficult than actually "leaving the body" in itself.

Yesssss!
My attempted point exactly. Are these forums more for those of attainment or those who are seeking? Both, I am sure but who stands to extract the most benefit?

Those who have projected dozens of times would easily suffice with their own terminology. Someone who tries dozens of times unsuccessfully might benefit from clarity. While I can understand PR's revelation I still feel somewhat mutinous.

Oh well.

EFIL. WTF. BUBBLES?

CFTraveler - Yes, cheers. I was not referring to your comment. I was questioning the entire thread. Xanth initiated this thread by posting a relevant glossary from PR. I constantly see discussion which amounts to nothing but semantics. That is time wasted when these are precious moments for those on the cusp. I think if we both review posts you will see we are very much eye to eye. I do not wish to pretend to be more knowledgeable than another so I will defer from further comment. I do feel my comments were succinct however though not directed toward you. I suppose cpt. picard and selea were where my comments aimed. Sorry or not, I look forward to further discussion of this issue. It is important to those who have not progressed beyond the desire.

Enjoy!