Messages

quote:I didn't say it didn't matter to me, but it seems everytime I give MY OPINION, it is wrong. So why bother? and why is that so hard for ya'll to get? In one sentence I am bad for having my opinion and not hearing yours, in the next sentence you say I should understand why they feel my opinion is flawed..do you not see you are doing the exact thing I am being critiqued for? I never said I knew everything to be facts either...I am the first to admit that! Ask anyone who really knows me, I am always trying to learn more and not ashamed of it.

Thats good then - I'll say no more about that particular issue.

quote:Now I take this statement..as I don't have a grasp of logic, correct me if I am wrong but that is exactly what it sounds like. I am not overreacting, I am stating the truth.. And for someone whom says they don't know me well, you sure seem to act as if you know me, hence you having no problem in telling me of my faults.

Sorry, I was unclear in my meaning, I'll re-write what I originally posted for clarity.  

What I meant by "anyone with a good grasp of logic could see you are overreacting" was a direct implication that I think (my impression at least) you amongst others take criticism as an attack which you must defend with abrupt denial of fault rather than looking into yourself, seeing if the attack was warranted and then maybe modifying your attitude OR not depending on what you feel is right.  I'm sure you do this anyway but thats not the impression I get from many of the posts here (not just yours, Nay, you were just a more recent example.  I have short term memory problems so sorry you got caught in my crossfire).  Anyway, didn't mean to imply you lacked logic, I was just observing that maybe it was being substituted for some other means of dealing with the conversation.

As for stating the truth, please, tell me this TRUTH, as so far in my life I have discovered many truths only to have time and time again discovered enough evidence to prove them otherwise, until one day I decided that there is no such thing as truth, just observations of phenomena and theories as to their nature.  Even the so-called "laws" of physics get turned on their head every once in a while regardless of the number of scientists who argue their "immutable truths" against the invading theorys.  On the flipside of the truth coin, i sense a pot calling kettles black in that you think you are allowed to state your truths without people questioning their validity, but isn't that what DK did when she tried to say what happened to her truthfully and was questioned about their validity?  So maybe she reacted with hostility, which is exactly what you are doing to the "dark side" of this argument.  Its interesting to see peoples reactions when the tables have turned isn't it.  It's good advice to not give it unless you can take it.

quote:And for someone whom says they don't know me well, you sure seem to act as if you know me, hence you having no problem in telling me of my faults.

And you can claim that you've never, ever judged anyone you've just met from the way they act in a conversation? P-lease.

quote:Well, you see things one way, I see them another. Doesn't make either of us right.. Like I said..I tried to help, and got shot down for it..I quoted her responses to me. I felt pretty silly afterwards, I'll tell you that. She made me feel as if I could be of no help, and my ideas on how to perhaps alleviate some of her problems was down right stupid.

Like I tried explaining earlier, but you probably missed the point, there is no such thing as right or wrong when it comes to anyones perception of how they think the universe is.  But there is a sliding scale between delusion and reality where some people are more or less deluded than others.  So you got shot down because she didn't need your help.  So DK acted a bit upset in a time of crisis.  Thats over and done with now isn't it?  Why does it keep on getting dragged back up.  Are you still hurting over it?  I'm not trying to cause any bad feelings around here I certainly have none for you Nay, but maybe you'll feel better if you understand that Dark Knight did find your solutions silly and useless in her situation.  They may work for you, but theres many cats and more than one way to skin em.  If your well being depended on skinning cats, it would be nice to be able to skin as many different kinds as possible in as many ways.  Yack, bad analogy.  Anyhoo...

quote:It worked for me, but it is obvious from this thread that I have different beliefs on how things can be handled.

Which is the point in question I think.  And this just doesn't affect you, Nay.  Everyone has different beliefs in how things can be handled but they all lie on that sliding scale I mentioned earlier.  This discussion I think is trying to make us all aware of where we stand on that scale and I for one dont give a monkeys if I happen to be 33.6% more delusional than you.  If you think that is the case then try to prove it for goodness sake, unless of course you're happy to let delusional people wander in your midst deluding other people they manage to convince of their delusional perspective.

quote:Uh, I am sorry but that is just plain silly, bad analogy for what this whole topic is about.

Just re-reading the topic... hmm.. problems with PSD.  No I think the shark analogy works because the problem with PSD is a lot of people seem to believe something which works for them works for everyone else, and the reason that it doesn't work for certain others is because it is their belief system which is flawed, because it doesn't reflect your's closeley enough.  I will extend the analogy by adding that maybe you're spearfishing in the astral and so far you've encountered only herring.  One of the problems with PSD is not enough people acknowledge the greater dangers out there, and seem to think that thinking scary thoughts somehow attracts those big bastards.  Well, I used to be a positive child and was taken by a shark so to speak, and only recently realised what was happening.

quote:I am trying to remember when I said that you must bow down to me and respect me...
If you mean I don't respect people, because I have a difference of opinion well...that is your opinion I believe this is what I said, and it doesn't say anything about me demanding your respect..

Ok so maybe I had an issue with the clarity of your original post, but I have to make it clear also that its not only you that talks about respect.  I've read around here of peoples respect "slipping" a notch or two this way and that.  Maybe the issue should be trust and not respect because as soon as you stop respecting someone because of past injustices, you fail to notice that maybe their personality has changed.  Trust on the other hand is different, because if you distrust someone then your intentions are a lot clearer.  Thats how I deal with it anyway but then again, the old delusionometer could come in handy right about now.

quote:*sigh* I have repeated myself in as many different ways that I can, I grow tired and weary of this. I have to say I have learned something today.... That there are negs out there and walking around in human form, and now I give you my back.

Before you go, one last question.  No I don't think you've repeated yourself that much actually we do seem to be getting this argument to some fundamental issues that underly the greater problem of what is wrong with PSD, namely that to do with peoples beliefs on what is "correct" as far as PSD is concerned.  We have each others best interests at heart and rest assured what you are saying isn't falling on deaf ears, as I can see where you are coming from and I am slightly altering my stance to clarify and sometimes nullify some of my earlier arguments if you didn't notice.

And by turning your back on me is that to say I'm not worth talking to?  What are you afraid of, that I might learn something from you or that *gasp* you might learn from a stupid, ill informed newb?

Please don't go Nay.  I like to sort things out so that everyone is happy, but I guess I'm just too flexible when it comes to breaking my comfort zone.

Studied Information Technology at TAFE (college) and then went on to university to do Computer Science and Physics.  I'm now doing graphic design again.

i guess some kind of astral flyspray would come in handy

one at a time I'm sure I could handle these things, but I think whole swarms of them see me as an easy target.  I guess now I'm more aware of them I can shoo them off a bit more easily.

on a slightly different note, could somebody please direct me to instances where DK has attacked people verbally when they've tried to help her.  I'd like to see it for myself but I've looked around a bit and can't find any examples.

Ok maybe we need to order a pizza, sit around on some beanbags and chill out for a bit.

Nay, you seem like a loving and caring person, and nobody is questioning your best intentions.  However if you hurt somebody directly or indirectly, wouldn't you like to change whatever it is thats causing you to hurt that somebody?  Even if it means looking at yourself, spotting a problem and fixing it?

Nobody's perfect, but we can improve ourselves.

quote:I have no idea what ya'll are experiencing,and at this point does it really matter? Nothing I say will be right..

Why do you think it doesn't really matter what others are experiencing?  I think it matters because it helps you to understand where a person is coming from.  If you don't care about what others are experiencing how can you hope to understand their perspective and why they think yours is flawed?  I'm sure you've had plenty of experience over the past 15 or so years that confirms your own view of things, but that doesn't prove that you are right.  It does however make it harder for you to accept others views.  Still, guess theres nothing wrong with waiting until you see the evidence before you change your views, its just going to be a bit sad if the evidence involves yours, or someone elses pain (whether or not it was intentional).

As for thinking nothing that you say will be right, don't give up.  I'm sure if DK had your attitude she would feel the same way right about now.  Its not about being right or wrong its about listening and trying to understand what the other person is saying, which means asking pertinent questions.  Answers are easy to give, it is the questions which need the most thought because until you ask the right question, you aren't going to get a helpful answer.

quote:You are saying I am causing these things to happen to you, just because I do not take everything you say to be the gospel truth?

Anyone with a good grasp of logic can see that you are overreacting.  YOU are not causing the attacks, but when someone comes and asks for help apparently (I say apparently because I don't know you well enough) you and others push them away, so indirectly that person experiences suffering as a result of the best intentioned ignorance.  If you don't accept DK's testimony as being truth maybe you need to.  Because those names she's weilded around "like a sword" are actually references to people who have or are currently experiencing or witnessing others experiencing the SAME THING as she is, which should be reasonably taken as proof enough to a rational mind that DK is speaking truth when she talks about her experiences.  She isn't making it up.  Also, she isn't trying to force a guilt trip on you, and you should stop being so oversensitive to criticisms of your self.  When someone comes to you for help, tells you about their situation, do you up and say "I don't believe you because its nothing like I've ever experienced.  In my experience it should work like this this and this"?  That kind of response leads to an argument over the validity of the persons experience, causing the person to question their own validity and leading to arguments about the cause rather than speculation as to a cure.

quote:Maybe the negs just know that I will not play their games, and stopped trying to make me play.

Negs can be persistent lil buggers.  Some of them just won't go away, especially if they got their hooks in years before you became aware of anything spiritual.  Personally I've had a host of negs feeding off me for at least ten years, but I've only been spiritually aware for the last two or three, and for one of those years I was under almost complete control so I had no say in what my body was doing.  Wishing them away doesn't work.  Praying to god doesn't work (when they can silence your "voice").  Energy work doesn't work.  Attacking them doesn't work.  Ignoring them just gives them free reign to keep on feeding.  If a shark was chewing off your leg do you think ignoring it would make it dissapear?  Does praying to god make it go "poof"?  The same answer to those two questions applies to the stronger astral enemies one might find around the place.  Just because you've never seen them doesn't mean they don't exist.  Its like saying "I don't believe a shark bit off your leg because I've never seen one".  Imagine the look of surprise on your face when you finally meet one?

And respect...  Don't get me started on respect.  Damn, you got me started.  Why is it that people need to "Earn" respect?  Who amongst us has the right to judge one person more deserving than another?  Nobody.  Why?  Because as soon as you think you have the power to give or take respect from someone else, you immediately automatically think you (or your opinions) have the potential to be better than someone else.  Get rid of the ego trip.

quote:I have read of your experiences with interest DK. They sound disturbingly like schizophrenic experiences. You may want to investigate that.

I'm sure she already has.  Hey, most people think astral projection and conversations with spirits are schizophrenic experiences.  Who's to say DK isn't already on the ball as far as that sort of thing is concerned.  Sure, we all need a certain degree of evidence before we start believing something for ourselves but many people have been conditioned to pass any sort of "conspiracy" off as a skizophrenic problem that needs urgent attention.  Theres plenty of movies, jokes and references to conspiracy theories that desensitise the general population to the notion that the big people could possibly play mind games with the little people.  Couple that with the popular belief that you are the orchestrator of your own life and bam, you've closed your mind to a new possibility.

I think

quote:I mean come on, we all want to say that we know 'reality' - but this thread is a great example of just how hollow that claim can be. And when our claim to ultimate reality is threatened... hooo-boy! That is when you start seeing, 'My monoverse is bigger than your monoverse, and it's gonna whip your butt!' LOL

made perfect sense.  Nobody can claim to know everything that was, is and will be, but you are naive in thinking that everyones view is just as right.  It may feel right to the person experiencing their subjective reality, and they may argue that their view is right until they're blue in the face.  But then they act shocked and surprised when something from the objective reality, that is the "real" world/universe/whatever doesn't seem to correlate with their subjective view.  They may respond to the new situation by trying to twist their view to include the new phenomena, or they may have to disintegrate a few of their values and build a new system from the ground up, or they may just go insane and think they've become skizophrenic.  

Try to diagramatically visualise the universe as a circle, with the inside of the circle labled as "Reality" and the outside of the circle being "Delusion".  Everyone's perception is also a circle which overlaps to a varying degree both reality and delusion.  Some people are more deluded than others, some people are more aware than others.  Its a falsehood to claim that everyone's view is as correct as everyone elses, but that doesn't mean I'm saying its not correct for everyone to have their own view, no matter how deluded.  If that is what you meant by your last comment then I apologise for misunderstanding your meaning.

Well as always I can try to use my own experience to help - not that I'm competing mind you but hopefully others can learn from my mistakes.  I used to have vivid fantasys (too embarrasing to recount) which took over my life by the time I was 16, and through meditation I realised I was being used, the fantasys were being driven into me so I would respond by concentrating energy which was then easily fed off.  Once I saw the true nature of this... thing...  (Like you angelfire I have no word to describe what it is, just that it was attacking me and still lingers around if I ignore it for a few days it comes back and I can feel it "take hold" again)...  it shape shifts into people that it thinks I will mistake as the people themselves in order to get an emotional response.  It has also for the space of a year taken over my life completely and my physical body has been used to do many things I am ashamed of but which I, myself had no actual control over.  

The thing which most strikes me about this kind of creature is it is EXTREMELY well versed in conversation.  I tried communicating with it many times and it convinced my that it was a: CIA agents who've detected me and are watching me to see if I am an asset or a liability to their "scheme", b: god, c: friends or family trying to "help".  By doing this it effectively ran my life by making me afraid and easily manipulated.

Ok so it finally posed as a spirit guide and it was "helping" me focus my energy into ridding myself of the "evil spirit" which was really just pulling my strings once more and getting a free ride to my demise.

It still tries to get in now but I can recognise it pretty well by looking it straight in the eyes.  As soon as I do that the layers of deception are torn away and an ugly beast of a thing is before me - quite indescribable.  I took most of the steps you did in working on raising my energy and trying to maintain focus, but sometimes the little @#$@ still manages to get inside.

Hw to go about actually diminishing its power?  I find resisting it directly only makes things worse, because you are draining vast reserves of energy which it obviously seems able to absorb or deflect, probably through its own willpower.  Ignoring it doesn't help much either, because no matter how much you try to raise the energy levels it just keeps on skimming it off you by means of deception and oh-so-subtle manipulation.  Just thinking about it as I write this post, I can feel it sensing a weakness and forcing its way in because somehow thinking about it seems to... I don't know exactly but it seems to give it some kind of access!  It's trying to influence my post and its succeeding!

Damn!

I think we both need help Angelfire.  These things are cunning deceptive and highly intelligent and knowledgable.  They are definately not a thought form (hopefully SD can be so kind as to have a quick squiz in our direction and let us know what he thinks).

They use their convincing ways to stimulate strong emotional responses such as fear, anger, lust, etc so that they can feed off it.  I find that sheilding and focussing works to some extent.  Do you find that when it tries to "get in" to your mind it feels like its penetrating your skull from the outside, around the front and sides?  If you try and block it do you feel the "pressure" shift around to some other part of your head, but if you try to block it altogether your concentration fails?

Sorry about the long winded and twisting post but it seems likely angelfire and I are experiencing a similar attack, I mean some of the particulars are different but largely correlate.  I set out trying to offer help but realised that I'm still affected by this thing and I've put up with it for too long.  I've just been afraid to talk about it because I was scared of not being taken seriously.

sorry I just re-re-read the last few posts, it seems things are heading in a positive way already.  My apologies if my criticisms missed the mark by a few posts.

Just a suggestion, maybe you guys should talk about which part of each others argument you actually agree with.  That would certainly go a long way towards clearing the air for some more reasonable discussion.

Standing outside moments ago, savouring a cancer inducing cigarette, I paced back and forth trying to disseminate the arguments which have appeared in this discussion in the week I've been out of town.  The idea that a thread could possibly go on for "too long" I find to be appaling.  Just when people are getting personal and actually working out their differences, people start backing out because for some reason they're unable to confront whatever changes they may need to make in their ideology to accept the other side's viewpoint, or worse still they let pride get in the way of acceptance.

I find it interesting and I wonder why people see that they are being attacked when someone openly and honestly states what they think.  I wish I could post quotes but a virus has screwed up my system and copy/paste doesn't work!  I'll have to invent a situation which is typical of the common statement/response mechanisms at work in this debate.

person 1 : I have an opinion and this is what it is...
person 2 : I disagree with your opinion because it is naive to believe (whatever)
person 1 : How dare you call my niave, I'm offended, you are just an insulting person
person 2 : I am not an insulting person, your attitude reflects your naivety
person 1 : see!  another example of your insulting attitude!  I refuse to discuss this issue with you!

The point I'm trying to make is this debate keeps on going off track with people criticising peoples means of getting their point across.  People need to mature beyond the point of taking offense at a person's attitude in a conversation.  If people endlessly criticise one another's attitudes the point gets lost in a mess of opinionated garbage that doesn't help anybody.  Now here I am sounding like a hippocrite because I am in effect giving a blanket statement that criticises many people's attitudes.  The effect I'm trying to achieve is that certain people stop trying to make people have the same "manners" so that some invisible line isn't crossed that leads to the sacred "manners" being breached causing someone to be offensive.  Someone sinking in quicksand screaming out for help might say "SOMEBODY PLEASE F***ING HELP ME FOR F***S SAKE!" and then the "good mannered" people would say "No, I refuse to drag such a foul mouthed reprobate from the clutches of certain death, however if you were to have better manners..."  "WELL F***YOU THEN!" "Well, I guess I just can't help you I'm afraid.  Tiddly-pop." "F***! (gurgle, swallow, suffocate, die)"

I have read this entire post, and one thing stands out like a sore thumb.  It is difficult to communicate effectively with some vocally well equipped and conversationally cunning people here (i.e. those who ignore the point of a persons post, picking on a small detail such as the manner in which the point was made, thus diverting the flow of conversation, thus avoiding the need to use logic to debate your own point of view lest your logic be proven inferior, hoping to use a personality flaw in your logical opponent to get public opinion weighed against them thus negating the need for rational argument because obviously their attitudes are so flawed they are unreasonable and need to be ostricised etc etc)

I'm refusing to take sides because this isn't my argument, but I would like to see the people on each side reach an agreement rather than say its just too hard lets agree to differ.  Only the problem if you agree to differ is that every time the subject in question crops up, the same arguments start being recycled like before.

Blah blah blah who cares its just another opinion.

Nothing wrong with honesty, especially when brutality is involved:)

I never set out to say any of your intentions in what you were saying weren't compassionate or well meaning, and it is a shame that DK seems (from what you say) to be unable to integrate your experience into hers and responds with frustration and anger.

Everyone builds up their personal view of the world from only what they experience plus their imagination which fills in the gaps.  The closer one person's experiences in life to anothers the better they can relate to one another.  It seems DK's had some pretty far out experiences which may have pushed her perception a long way from the average, and she most likely feels that nobody understands where she is at, hence the frustration when yet another person offers their helpful advice (probably also due to the amount of conflicting ideas in spirituality, its like being a kid in a sweet shop).  This by no means is meant to imply that we should let her live in a fantasy world where we pretend that everything she does is perfectly normal, because of course this is pointless and doesn't help anyone.  And its already been shown that "slapping her in the face" with your beliefs isn't really helping, because she isn't a mugger, she's a person who's unsure about the world and desperately seeks to understand herself and others, but no one is listening to her.  That's all made up by me but the fact of the matter is you think she's selfish and insulting, and she may perhaps behave in that way, but the reason behind it, the actual cause of the behavior, the situation she is in, is what needs to be understood and discussed to help reach a comfortable co-existence within the group.  You can't judge a person on behavior alone and simply "feeling" for someone isn't enough if you truly want to help them.  You have to understand them as well.  Like a mechanic understands a car.  You might have a "feeling" that the engine's busted but the mechanic knows its the third woogey donga from the left thats out of alignment.

Anyway I hope DK gets better and I'd rather not have any conflict with you fine people, who after all have done the best you possibly can (as we all do).

quote:Perhaps we are being cruel, it seems DK can not help herself. I do not know what else to do.

I've seen (and experienced) time and time again that people trying to force knowledge on someone who isn't ready or prepared to confront the knowledge simply end up alienating that someone.  That someone feels that they aren't wanted and end up leaving the company of the people who were trying to force their help upon the person.  The end result being of course that the person ends up not benifiting from any of the experience that the others may have to offer.

This issue some people have with dark knight is a personal one which needs to be worked through in order to reach an understanding of some sort.  Trying to force her to see your outlook won't work, and neither will her trying to force you.  The best solution is to try and work down to the real issue which is bothering people and be honest about feelings.  Instead of saying "dark knight is an insulting person" which is an attack on her and an insult to her (it doesn't matter if she said something provocative first or not), it's better to say "it makes me angry when you suggest that ...  why would you say such a thing?" which then puts the ball in her park and she gets a chance to explain herself.  Sorry to use you as an example DK but people here seem to be fanning the flames rather than resolving the situation.  I don't mean that people do it intentionally, but it happens nontheless.

Let me say this: I don't think DK leaving would be a good resolution to the situation because she has experienced many things which could be shared with others if needed, she is an asset, but unless this conflict can be totally and openly discussed (compromises need to be made by all parties) she's just gonna up and leave us.  Some of you might say yay wahoo ding dong the grump is gone no more negative energy to drag us down but I would thing damn she's probably not gonna fare so well without a supportive community that can help her face the darkness and come through it a stronger person.



To sum things up from my perspective, people are who they are, and nobody has the power to suddenly change them, and if people try then they find they push other people away rather than creating any change.  You can't force these things.  However just because people are different doesn't mean the differences can't be discussed openly in a way which will benifit all sides of the discussion.  Venting frustration leads to an imbalanced discussion because sure you feel better having done it, but the other person feels offended.  If on the other hand you leave someone with an avenue to respond to your criticism or comment it gives them a chance to express their feelings on the matter.  This applys to everyone here and sure you might be thinking "you're standing there on your big butt soapbox telling us all how to talk to each other, where do you get off" but it's just another opinion, but I think its an important one because there is a disturbing level of intolerance to other peoples views here and it seems to be hampering any real change in everyones understanding of each other.  

Maybe we're all too set in our ways.

Insulting people isn't going to get anyone anywhere, I feel.  Why don't we try and focus on a positive outcome for this thread rather than an I'm right, you're wrong, no IM right, no YOU'RE wrong...  idiot...  loser....  moron... dum-dum head...  etc.

Enderwiggin has a point, in that even though you (acidmax) may have had some revenge, the people you acted it upon didn't learn anything, they're still gonna keep hassling you because there was no lesson in what you did to them other than don't stand in front of busses, don't fall down stairs, etc.

I'm genuinely interested to see what acidmax has to say about the source, because up until now he hasn't had a chance to properly explain it.

Okay so how would I get into the correct state of mind to have control over this source?  Is there any kind of trance work or meditation, you know how people can explain the events leading up to an astral projection, can you describe the techniques and steps on the path to accessing this level of awareness?  If it is pure emotion or energy (if they aren't one and the same) then how do you command it to say affect a person in the physical?  Do you focus the power into a ball or an intention and then direct it at your taget by simply "willing" it?

My impression is that maybe you're scaring these dudes off and they are just trying to help you.  If they want to talk to you, why do you try and pull a gun and point it at them?  Talk to them and see what they have to say, would be my advice.  Be wary though but don't try any arnold schwarzenegger stuff until you need to.  If you asked to see something, maybe they have information for you.  Obviously they knew what you were thinking when you tried to make a gun, which they took as a signal of "I don't want your help" or "go away, I'm not ready/too afraid to confront this situation".

Try it again sometime but be on guard, just not so hair trigger.

[)] it happens to us all once in a while.  Maybe theres another non physical explaination, I wasn't discounting that...

Taking a different tack, physics is a fairly useful subject when it comes to understanding the basic workings of the world and universe around us.  Its just when people try to use it as grounds for debunking anything that can't be shown to them as a mathematical equation that their minds are closed.  I read something about belief and perception here in another thread and it pretty much nailed it on the head when it comes to certain scientists becoming set in their knowledge that they "believe" that the answer lies in a certain direction when the evidence against it is clearly outweighing their own personal evidence.  An interesting example of science arguing with spirituality is over in this thread (at a forum i used to visit before I realised this one offers more in the way of experience):
http://www.astralforum.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=552&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

other than all that - don't go thinking you're a jackass.  That would be like me thinking I'm a jackass for rocking up to red rooster (fast food chicken outlet in australia), ordering over the speaker thingy for two chicken dinners, one with no peas, with chips and a wnig, yes, thats two chicken dinners... no, no peas.  With a wing... ahuh...  ummm....  a sprite please...  hang on that was with no peas!  and gravy, yes...  okay thankyou...  (get to the window)...  uh....  I've left my money at home.  (doh!) (drive off with laughter coming from the back seat)

I can relate directly to one experience that still stands out in my mind.  I was walking down the main street of the town where I grew up when I was attacked by several men wielding knives.  The dream was semi lucid at this point (i.e. I could see and feel quite realistically but was merely observing the events).  I was stabbed quite visciously many times (like 20 or 30 times), and I could feel the pain quite realistically; the initial resistance as the knife met the skin, the tearing apart of skin and flesh as it penetrated each layer of my body, the scraping and twisting as a bone got in the way.  Actually it only hurt to start with after the first 10 or so I kinda got used to it and sort of felt detached from the event.

There could be a simple physical explaination for this.

When a candle burns the wick melts the wax and vaporises the molten wax into a flammable gas.  When the wick is burning the gas stays close to the source of ignition (the wick).  However when you extinguish the flame the hot wax will continue to emit some gas until it cools.  This gas would rise as it is less dense than the surrounding air and collect near the lid as there is nowhere for it to escape.  For the gas to reignite there needs to be an ignition source and its possible that the inside of the wick was still hot and the embers smouldered away to the outside of the wick where they contacted the gas and, well, vwoosh.

Thats pretty much the physical explaination.

Good or evil aside, I can only think of these questions...  How can you best describe the source?  How do you get in contact with it?  What does it feel like?  How do you channel it?

Thanks

I guess i'm jumping in the deep end here, being new and all, but the water seems lovely and warm

Before I go on and state my opinion, I'd just like to say that everything I write is just what I think, I'm more than willing to change my attitudes if someone can show me that they are, for want of a better word, inferior.  Also I make various assumptions about people in a conversation from what they have said or written and if I'm wrong, please correct me rather than let me go on thinking such and such is a whatever.

I know DK you said that its your last post, but you've gone and taken us (i think) in a new and interesting direction.  I think we should all be trying to help each other as much as we help ourselves.  Thats the only way any of us are going to learn anything new.

DK, my initial response to reading your latest post was to empathise with your situation, because it seems to me that you are frustrated that the majority of people don't understand the weight of your problems (past or present).  Like dealing with depression, the majority of people who have never experienced it say "stop being so negative, think positive" yet no matter how many affirmations, how many positive thoughts you come up with, there's always ten reasons why those positive thoughts should be ignored.  So while the person with depression is trying to cope through a situation literally beyond their control and so mentally destructive, the well meaning people around who are confused and say "but you should be happy" eventually end up being irritating unless you ignore them and try to understand that they ARE trying to help, but they honestly have nothing in their range of experience that is really of any use to you.  But considering the only way they'd REALLY understand your suffering is if they themselves had suffered like you, and I know I wouldn't wish my own suffering upon anyone else, I don't know about you.

Its easy to mistake anger for negativity, but imho thats a hallmark of a person who needs to learn a bit more about negativity.  Negativity is something that hurts people.  If anger hurts someone then maybe they need to look at their own self confidence issues, because anger is real, and it can be weilded positively, as I believe DK has been trying to do (anger was the emotion I sensed in your posts, correct me if I'm wrong).  Anyway if it is the case that you're angry about something then just say what it is so then we can all work through that issue rather than seeing the same old arguments over again.  You need to help us understand what it is you're trying to achieve here, so then we can help you in return.  

Other than that, everything everyone here's said makes sense in its own right, its just there's an undercurrent of unacknowledged emotion thats threatening to push people apart rather than reconcilliate and promote understanding.

*slides out of the shadows, enters yogi with arms outstretched*

Hmm, my mind is entering the universal flux matrix-o-tron...  I'm tuning into your vibes...  downloading emotional data...  10%... 20%... 30%.... 50%.... 60%.... 90%.... 99%..... 99%..... 99%........ 99%............... complete...

I think hidden somewhere in your being is a search for answers, even though you never stated a direct question.  You feel that you've never found your place, and are full of frustration that you just don't get the people around you, and would love to find some people who were less judgemental and easier to get along with.

quote: I don't fit in with my age group. To me, most of them are fools. They all act like I'm some weird loser or something. Not ONE person can talk to me in a normal manner. Perhaps I'd just like to find my place? It sure as hell isn't here, I'll tell you that much.

Often the more open minded people (i.e. think outside whatever is shown on tv or in school classes etc, i.e. has a brain of their own, i.e. you and me and everyone else here) intimidate other people.  Also, because we tend to be nicer and more understanding people will take advantage to bring you down because they're sick of seeing you strutting around using big words and talking about complex philosophy.

I used to suffer a similar problem at school, not being able to get along with anyone because well I thought they were all stupid and they wouldn't listen to me, and I'd get defensive and they'd be offended.  I didn't see this however because I was stuck in a vicious cycle...  Problems at home were the root of my troubles, but it took me many years to work out.  I'd be made to feel stupid and useless at home and I'd go to school with this attitude of "gee, I feel stupid but I know I'm not, so I'm gonna set out to prove everyone wrong".  At first I tried talking with people to convince them but quickly enough they got sick of it because they wanted to have "fun" conversations about "fun" stuff like motorbikes or cars or go-karts or something simple.  Thinking requires effort, and considering most people like to be relaxed and chilled out as often as possible they consider their free time to generally be a "heavy thinking free zone".  The end result of the cycle was the people at school treat me like the dumb loser I was trying to show that I wasn't.

Because I shared so few interests with the people around me (as is still the case now) I found it was hard to communicate with them, for example I couldn't hang with the basketball crew because I didn't know anything about the NBA (I'm Australian), I couldn't hang with the library kids cos they'd spend all lunchtime playing magic the gathering.  I ended up settling for the band of outcasts who, I found, were easy to get along with in an I wont judge you-you won't judge me kind of way.  It still didn't satisfy my desire for "intelligent" company because I just wanted someone to talk to about my interests.  I have at least three good mates from school who I've slowly found share different aspects of my interests, all at different levels of understanding so we're always catching up with each other.

But my point...  hmm do I have one.  Hang on let me check...  nope, I must've left in my other pants....  oh hang on here it is. (I'm a rambler)

You want to find your place, just as I wanted to.  I've come to realise that you need to follow your heart, make some tough choices and also see that wherever you feel comfortable, that is your place.  A lot of it has to do with learning to feel more comfortable in various situation, at least with me I've forced myself to get along with people I'd otherwise deem stupid, and its quite a learning experience, especially when you get involved in interpersonal politics.  It seems to involve a lot of listening to other peoples sides of stories and taking sides and saying "yeah?" "Oh so she fell from the balcony?" "you think Adrian pushed her?  Thats no good" while all the time you're thinking "who are these people we're talking about!!!!

see im rambling again, anyway I was trying to make a point there but probably ended up sounding like an 80 year old man telling stories that go nowhere.  Which is a worry since I'm only 23.

As a last resort in my search for a solution to my uncontrollable depression and anxiety illness, Efexor has begun to level out my moods to a point where they are acceptable and I feel a lot more sane and rational.  If meditation alone could have sorted out the probalem then I wouldn't have turned to antidepressants, but the sad truth is that I was a danger to myself.  No matter how much positive thinking I tried my mind wouldn't stop feeling helplessley depressed.  The lack of energy and motivation sapped my love of life and began to affect not only my ability to AP and meditate but random, uncontrollable moodswings wreaked havoc on my social life and led to me jumping from one job to the next, always on the edge of a nervous breakdown.

Since starting the effexor a month ago I have begun having lucid dreams and can feel my spiritual awareness improving.

Jeff is right.  One thing I might add is that dreams are often a very personal issue and the same dream might mean different things for different people.  You need to use your intuition to work out what a dream means, and its better to do it as quickly as possible.  For example when I wake up after a particularly vivid or unusual dream I will lay in bed asking myself in my head "what did the dream mean, what did this bit mean, what did that bit mean" and usually the answers will come to me and it makes sense.

If you felt that it was truly your friend in the dream then its likely he was deeply concerned for you and has come to say that he's okay and not to feel bad or sad because he always knew that you loved him and it went without saying, plus I get the feeling he'll be hanging around for a while.  You could try calling him to you when you meditate or project, I hope you two will get a chance to talk soon.

Thankyou Kiauma, I totally agree, and I guess I just wish I could make a real change, for the love of everything.  Its a bad habit of mine to always set my expectations above what I can realistically achieve, but wouldn't it be nice to change the world.

Certainly I feel there's much more to existance than what I ever knew.  Now I am continually re-defining my perceptions and attitudes based on the metaphysical experiences I've had in recent years.  The hardest part of the process is working out my real purpose for being here, and even harder will be leaving my comfort zone to enact that purpose (once found).  I feel that I need to immerse myself in the capitalist system to a certain degree in order to survive, but knowing that capitalist money derives its value from the exploitation of cheap labour hurts me deep down.  However money seems to equal survival in this day and age, so thats my catch-22.  In a nutshell I want to advance spiritually but I feel shackled by the constraints of society.