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you can try this to remove the resistance, go to sleep 5hours wake up for 30mins wash your face, then try the rope technique while you drift off to sleep but don't sleep if you can try the rope technique you maybe able to pull it off at the conscious level instead of falling asleep and lucid dream (be aware you are dreaming).  This way your mind is alert but body is a bit groggy/loose which will help loosen the resistance a lot.

interesting I've never been able to obe/ap from what you are describing.  Only times I was able to obe you can try this technique as well to enhance your ap/obe, is to go to sleep for 5hours wake up wash your face you can do some alert exercises if you want for 30mins keep your mind awake, then as you drift off to sleep you can do some meditation whatever method you are doing then drift off to sleep.  Chances are either you will obe/ap consciously, or fall asleep have a lucid dream be able to ap from it or fall asleep be aware you are falling asleep.  Countless times this is the only way I was able to do a ap in my dream, even sometimes be aware I'm falling asleep and thirdly one time I slept 5hours stayed awake all day then went and did exercises instead of falling asleep and was able to conscious obe.  I think reason being your mind and body is too tired when you do it before you go to sleep but if you sleep 5hours and wakeup for 30mins then go back to sleep you interrupt the sleep cycle a bit, your mind becomes alert and body still needs a little extra recharge so when you drift to sleep you literally wake up in your dream or be aware you are dreaming or obe consciously.  Many people I've heard of they usually wake up early in the morning and have like two alarm clocks to wake up for meditation earlier and try to obe and second ot wake up to go to work in the morning.

you know what I thought is if you get your body vibrating enough you should be able to walk out with no resistance, that is to put your awareness outside of the body ie imagine your awareness is drifting out, or do the rope technique pretending you're climbing out, or imagine you are standing next to your bed etc.. etc...  There were times in lucid dreaming where I would have false awakenings and feel the vibrations so much and just walk out with no resistance.  I wish I could do this consciously though but you have to be a drowsy/alert state or in other words body deeply relaxed almost paralyzed.  Conscious projection is true obe since there are no dream stuff mixing, in lucid dreaming part things you can believe are true and others are mental construct/symbolism/imagery.

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Wow, I wish they brought a real hypnotist to my school... though, if I did participate, s/he probably wouldn't be able to influence me, but it'd be hilarious if s/he could! Hmm...I've never seen that show before! Or maybe I did, oh wells.

well he wasn't able to hypnotize everyone he did some sort of test,
he knew who is or who is not hypnotizable, I believe half of them weren't. It was funny when we were seeing this I was sitting  beside my french teacher who took us to see this during our period, she was literally saying in her french language diabolos (you know what that means in english).  I don't blame the woman for saying that, anyone who messes with another persons mind be it directly (hypnotist) or magic (long distance) if you leave the guy in that state then you are evil no doubt or practicing witchcraft/pharmakosis (brainwash) but atleast the hypnotist he removed those things and he also allowed those people to remember what they did on stage not immediately though after a few hours so they don't have a shock on the stage!  

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I'm glad this course is free...but, as the saying goes, "Nothing in life is free." I think that's my mentality about it, it's also probably why I'm feeling very doubtful.

get to know the teacher, what type of character he is if it's free he must be some humanitariam or someone who likes to do charity in life which is a godly character. I know most are not like that though, they are the complete opposite, deceivers or BS'ers.

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I see you're a Canadian too (go Canada! Err..um), so why aren't you going to the actual workshop (that is, if you live in T.O)? ...

I called the place, and talked to the instructor. He was more than willing to talk and answer my questions...I think he talked a little too much, cause I was kinda getting nervous... he told me that we weren't going to be hypnotized, just shown techniques...but you never know @_@... I hope the guy isn't a professional hypnotist though ~_~. Oh, and he had an accent! Accents are so cool!... I wish I had an accent *_*

As a matter of fact it is an hours drive from where I live, only problem is the classes are at 7-8pm. I work during that time if it was from say 9:30-11pm or in the daytime or say on the weekend at different hours daytime hours I'd go. Maybe they should videotape the whole session and then stream it on the internet or something for those who can't go.

Sin what is there to be afraid of?  You can go there just learning the techniques, you don't have to suck in everything a person has to say you have the power to choose what you accept and what to reject and it's not like a cult where you have meetings every week, after the course is over its over you don't go back again.  I screwed up my astral projection once because I was afraid of seeing the astral for the first time in a conscious state (no filters whatsoever like in lucid dreams) and I screwed it all up because I was chicken because it was a new experience and it was VERY different than anything I've seen in the real world.  I'm never going to do that same mistake again when I have another opportunity to go into the astral/real time zone again thats for sure.  So long as the guy teaching the course is not a professional hypnotist (grin) but you'll see anyways. Freaky to see, one time they brought one to our high school he literally hypnotized ten students on stage at the same time some of them were my friends, he literally told them they are this and they are that ie one guy he said when he sits down on the chair the chair is hot as a stove, he sat down and he screamed ouuuch, other guy he said he was a comedian character and he was saying silly things on stage, another girl he said she was a stripper stripping on stage.  But they say these things are temporary they don't last forever only for a day or so if its a suggestion from another person but it was freaky to see a professional hypnotist not a BS'er one.  I doubt you will come under that condition if you watch the show penn/teller Bulls*it almost every show they showed a BullS*it hypnotist (ie ufo regressions/breast enlargements etc..) they never worked just sucked their money and fooled them after 10-30 sessions at $90 a pop.  This astral projection is a free course, there is no strings attached.

quote:sin: weagle: I hope there isn't anything wrong with it. I'm going to call later today to ask some questions. I signed up for the online course as a 'just in case', but I'll have to wait for another 8 weeks before I receive anything.

sin: personally if you want to learn to AP you have to learn from someone who knows already and is experienced since they will help you achieve your goal.  They have those live courses in the public library. There can't be anything wrong with that but then again it all depends on who's teaching it, is it a person that has done ap before?  But still nontheless you can do the online course for free and the author seems to know what he is saying so far in his perspective when you compare to others ie bruce's work etc..

rodentmouse: when I took the ap intro course I noticed that there is even other mind expanding courses you can take ie self knowledge or esoteric so this may get even more interesting because its other stuff that branches out from ap/lucid dreaming.  Can't wait to try those courses too.  And of course you have to respect a persons belief even you believe he's wrong.  But still though anyone who can AP its best to learn from them, you may get something out of it.  If you learn from those who pretend they know how to ap but nevered ap'd in their life is a waste of time, same as it's a waste of time watching tv evangelists on tv who are not spiritually enlightend themselves mostly material enlightend.

goingslow:  still I wouldn't hold to only that guys techniques as being the only one and I still would disagree with him saying body awareness exercises cannot make one AP, I did it once successfully just doing body awareness so he's wrong there and also in lucid dreaming ie body vibrating a lot just walked out in one dream proves body vibrations are also important (which body awareness helps you do) and they say it makes you concentrate on you physical body but personally it also helps you concentrate on your body double/etheric body that helps generate it.

I had another lucid type dream where I wanted to astral project somehow my legs were still stuck so I couldn't get out but I continued the lucid dreaming thing. It is really amazing when you know you are dreaming and just look at things and see how darn real they look to you and you are aware and can control the dream somehow. But the 5-6hours then awake (stay awake for 15-60mins) then go back to sleep works almost everytime so far 7 days 5 of the times I was able to astral project/fake project, 1 of the time I just mentioned I tried to project and failed still was lucid and one time I didn't have any lucid dreams at all maybe my body was too tired that day but so far I've been having success with this technique.  I think reason being they say after 6 hours the last dream/rem states pertain more to real events that will happen mainly because the mind and partially the body has been fully recharged and relaxed a lot but still the body needs a little more juice but since you wake up so to speak stay awake then fall back to sleep you keep the mind a little more awake than normal and reason why you can lucid dream more easily and from there astral project.  Now if I keep with the program ie wake up 6 hours wash the eyes then listen to monroe's tapes I've heard Frank had success with induction ie now he can go to focus 10 (mind awake/body asleep) close to almost on command.  I've seen some people who can do this which is amazing at their will they can fall into focus 10 and then astral project.  The only time I had a conscious astral projection is when I woke up after 5 hours of sleep and went to work, so I stayed awake for like 6 hours then when I went to do the meditation ie hemi-sync then body awareness exercises somehow I just got out instead of falling asleep go lucid then get out.  I think prolonging your sleep does something extra on the alertness thing but I'm still happy with the 5-6hours stay awake 1hour then sleep cause that can't do ya any harm anyways.  What was freaky I did the same thing one other time ie 5-6hours sleep awake stay awake for 6 hours, I took the wild lettuce herb/sedative and I had freaky lucid obe's ie 6 times in a row (6 false awakenings) where as I would maybe have 1 or 2 in the normal scenario. That was amazing but it sure drained my energy thats for sure.

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I don't use that method to project, but after some hours of sleep I become more lucid in the dreams and notice the trance state more often. I can't actually sleep 10 hours straight, so I sleep and wake, sleep and wake, and when I wake I feel wether I can start a projection from there, or I start it in the dream, when it fades and gets all dark and I get in trance.

Today I dreamed I was in bed and I was staring at my face from outside I guess, then I decided to project and closed my eyes. Got back in trance and imagined some sparkling lights vibrating at my temples. When the vibrations started I closed my physical eyes tightly and began spinning, and then I was floating away from my bed. I stood in the middle of my bedroom and decided to use the mirror to get to my brother's house. I could see my reflex in the mirror but I thought if I entered it it would get me there somehow. It turned out it didn't, I got into the mirror and was still in my room, but still moving I made a curve downwards and saw a bed and a clock, but then I noticed I was back to my body staring at the floor.

You know what makes me wonder when you have a obe or low level obe/partial obe when you see kids looking at you at your bedside I wonder why they are there?  Also when a tragedy happens such as a bus accident killing so many kids or say a drowning child in swimming pool, sometimes you see a physical sign ie a light from a unknown source shining on the spot of the incident.  Are the children well or are they really stuck somewhere because they have not matured mentally to believe in God or know what happens to them when they die and have that faith so they can go to the right place?

yeah I wonder what it means to see children looking over your physical body and also looking over you.  Is there really a lot of children in the astral world close to the physical plane?  Or is it just a symbol of somethiing I know the people walking with dogs was a symbol.  I also wonder what it means to see your dad and having it be so real ie dad plays around knocked me down and I even felt it.  I know they say spirits may be trasparent so far I was seeing them solid I wonder if those kids are even spirits or just a construct of my mind, that is what I really want to figure out then things can get interesting.  I also wonder if I do obe and say your brother/dad is in the next room I wonder why you can't see them there?  Just some questions to ponder about.

Man I had another lucid dream/false obe it looked real but wasn't just a darn good dream construct.  I was dreaming of a place they took a guys brain disected it and uploaded it with info so he wouldn't have to learn anything just whatever they inputed him.  I always came to my room/bed all the time I know I was dreaming either I would pull out of it or later find myself in my bed again trying to get out of the body.  First time I tried my legs were stuck, then I said I won't do it that way again.  Then the next time I slipped out, noticed I was not going through solid objects said I didn't get out went back in.  Then I got out saw a lot of little kids went outside through the wall in backyard noticed it was super nice weather when really its ice pellets raining it looked prety good I saw some anomalies but it was more solid this time around. I went around saw a apartment building when it should of been a houses all around turned around went back to my house, saw my old car in the driveway we sold long time ago went through the door normally cause I noticed I could not go through walls again then saw my parents they looked darn real and interacted with me dad even pushed me down and I even felt it, I went into my room and I said to myself damn this obe is lasting too long I hope I can get back to me body, the real physical phone rang and woke me up otherwise I could of gone on and on with this virtual dream.  It just makes me wonder was all of this a dream construct and how am I ever going to obe from a false dream state if everything looks real?  It's as if I trained my brain to see my bed all the time in dreams but makes me wonder how I can make them the real deal obe's with the true physical plane.  And I think the disecting of/programming of the brain could mean the effort/meditation and monroe tapes I'm listening to.

It's interesting I was again third day able to pull off an obe actually near lucid/on brink of sleep did the 5-6hour sleep 15-20min awake (then listened to intro to focus 10) for 37mins then did some body awareness for 20mins then drift to sleep I literally felt my body and my point of awareness slip out of my body as I was drifting to sleep and again I saw myself on the bed I saw instead of me my grandmom (she contacted me one time in lucid dream shortly after she passed away) then I was upset and said Clarity Now! I also said the words Stronger, Longer then I felt myself jump into my body and back out again and saw myself on the bed again but only anomaly was magic markers beside me on my bed (maybe they symbolize the dreams I write that I write when I wake up).  Then I woke up drained of energy from it, it didn't last long and after doing it 3 days in a row the third day it felt as though I had the most numbness on my body (thats the side effects I guess with obe/lucid dreaming) but bizarrely I think I have more physical energy because of my skin condition (psoriasis) was improving a little ie feeling more itching/healing than burning.  I just don't last long in this mode and ironicly I think my mind is now trained pretty good to enter it almost everytime 3 days in a row and successful but it just doesn't last long and I don't get so far out only upto my front yard of my house.  I gotta keep on trying what tricks to get this thing to produce more energy.  I know one time I did a conscious type obe took me an hour of listening to monroe/body awareness but it was the full obe ie energy shooting through the head/chest then static noise then being free but this one was so low level I just drifted out of my body without being charged or hearing any static noise. It makes me wonder what kinda of obe this really is compared to the other one?  But the other one definately was stable I saw a ghost walking in the house then when I went downstairs saw other transparent/white things in the other room as well.  I have to try the spinning/rubbing hands next time, I was trying to say other verbal things ie stronger/longer to indicate give me more energy so I can stay out longer but maybe I should say it after I rub my hands or spin.

it was weird whatever I was doing in the physical same train of thought carried in my dream I was in a high school and I was moving around and remembered why not take deep breathes in the stomach like the same I do while awake (which help create low alpha/high theta) and I was doing it, the dream did last pretty long.  I also tried another time they say second best method after spinning (96% effective) is rubbing of hands (90% effective).  I swear it felt like I pressed pause on the dream (never in my life I had a dream that just paused on me).  I should of continued to do it til everything went black then say my next intention is.  I think rubbing hands is less subtle than spinning but both are very effective ways of dreaming longer, I'm going to try them in obe's/partial obe's seee if they work well in those as well cause my obe's don't seem to last long I see a lot of anamalies first then I lose energy then wake up.

next time you obe and feel like you are 100% outside from your body just say "I can see now! or clarity now!"  This may activate your eyesight.  Or another trick is pretend you are removing something from your eyes pretend you're using your hands as if someone put a mask over your eyes and you're trying to remove it.  worked for me two times I was blind.  This is what I use and I'm assuming you are away from your body.  If it's the case you're still partially stuck to your body but partially out, whichever part is not disconnecting do body awareness on that part and it will free up or do the rope technique that will exert mega force to get you out.  And if you're still blind apply those techniques mentioned above.

This is my second day I had an obe from my lucid dreaming.  This time I tried again the 5-6hours wakeup stay up 1 hour go back to sleep.  And again as I go back to sleep I pay attention to the hypnogogic imagery (don't think about or or remark about it) and do body heaviness (sign of body falling asleep) and do body awareness but this time I fell asleep but was alert and immediately I said "Astral Project, Now!" I think the now was important to say last time I didn't say it. And then I saw myself in my bed moving out of my body turn around saw myself on my bed which this time looked more realistic but when I stepped outside it was ok for 10 seconds then after when I went to the front yard I saw anomalies ie people walking their dogs which look like a mental construct instead of the physical plane.  Then after 10-20 more seconds I wanted to do more things but funny thing I think I ran out of energy and I woke up from it (amazing my body even does this usually I'd drift to the dream state).  It was still a low level projection though didn't last long woke up from it and I didn't go through the heaviness/static noise/rush of energy I just moved right on out which is a crappy way.  I know having a lot of energy is important to have a high level obe than low level one because the difference is you stay out longer I believe and its less of a mental construct/abnormality since you are getting more imput from the physical world (like a cell phone who's batteries are fully charged I'd like to put it).  Does the spinning give you a lot of energy?  I'm wondering if what you say is true energy stored in naval or is it really you have to train the brain to be more alert/aware like in robert monroe's tapes where he even gives you things you can do to make yourself more alert ie touch back of your head say 1. I wonder if I did it in a obe/lucid would I become more alert or have more energy?  I wonder also if the reality checks will help (ie check hands which are wavy in dreams/numbers which change if you look more than 3 times) or doing body awareness.  I know how to trigger obe very well now in the lucid state, just imagine you're outside the body hold next to the bed and just hold the thought while falling asleep and you'll feeling tingling sensation end up being out or if you fall into lucid dreaming just say astral project now and you will somehow go out.  Also does it matter if you keep practicing this technique everyday, will the projections get any better because of your alertness because you are doing it everyday?  It's wonderful that there is a backdoor to obe's through lucid dreaming until one can achieve it everytime in conscious state just that I noticed an obe from a conscious state (ie do body awareness exercises, hear static noise then project) you've got more of your senses/awareness actually see spirit beings and very little of it is a mental construct but a better map of the physical plane/astral world.  But I did one time had a conscious obe full alert and morning after through lucid dream (commanded it) and both looked like fully alert ones.  I would love to improve the abilities just wondering which is the best direction to take.

what does it mean sometimes when you do the new system for over half and hour and your body starts to heat up sometimes is that also a good indicator for astral projection or is there major blockages?  Then again aren't blockages usually too much energy centered in one area and not the whole body?

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[Super Saints] are the ones who give their will completely over to God.

Question: is this an actual peice of jargon borrowed from a credible source (an actual term used to describe these devoted holy figures), or did you actually make it up. If the former is true, then I'll keep that term at close readiness.

Personally, I think the term coined by you "Super Saints" is crude. The term nun (or monk / priest) actually applies to what you are saying. The title of saint is only given to those who have pledged their entire life serving God, and is a title ordained by the patriarch (i.e. Pope)of the Roman Catholic Church. By that respect, I do not believe that Super Saints is an actual word that exists.

I believe you are right when saying usually nuns or monks are considered a super saint.  Then again there are lay people who gave up all their riches to follow God.  Think about it. Something supernatural had to have happened in their lives to change completely around not because of some BS'ers scaring people into their own religion so they can take their money but something happened that made them believe there is a creator.

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That is their [Nun/Monk]lifestyle. They completely work for charity I think is a major requirement as a super saint.

If you only think, then how can you truly know if it is true? I can't answer this one because I have no idea how saints are ordained. It is as elusive to me as the requirements necessary for knighthood. In any case, I would suggest you do the research (for the fun of it, and to understand the issue more closely)

I don't think they have to be canonized or ordained in a religion to be a saint.  There are many saints in heaven that are not recognized by the religious organizations on earth maybe mainly because they did their duties in private and were not recognized publicly.  I believe there are some saints that should be canonized but I believe in God eyes they are, take for example Mary Agreda 350 year old body not to decompose at all and not even embalmized yet she's not a canonized saint in the catholic church.

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If you believe that there is a God, he must have created us out of Love & Charity otherwise why would he create us for?

I believe in God, and I do not. This may sound confusing, but the reason I speak in such a paradox is because the perception as to what God is (what type of God we are speaking of), is beyond generalization. Are we talking about the detached Islamic god of Allah? Or perhaps you are referring to the virtual-plane state of God that is achieved in the Hinduist religion (i.e. Reality is a dream. Disciples who are learned in the way of this faith must spend their lives awakening themselves to the true reality that exists, which is God). Perhaps you are referring to the New Age interpretation of God, which is the most liberal and versatile image of all Transcendalist theses.

To generalize most religions I'd look at the new age/psychology type as the true God.  God is Love and Charity and all the misery in the world is from our own mistakes or other mistakes of others and sins, not God's fault, our fault.  So one is responsible for his own actions especially the karma law.  But I still don't want to limit God since God is unlimited even though we think we may know everything about God none of us know him completely maybe with the exception of Jesus Christ whom try to light some information about him in the bible.

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While I have a very strong spiritual side to myself, I do not easily buy into the ways of conventional, idealistic thinking. It is crude, broken, disarmed of rational thinking. While everyone has their own conception of God, (including you), I feel inclined to share my own opinion as well (as this point). As I see it, why must someone concern themselves with an Avatar (an image). Is God so important to people that they would spend their entire lives searching for an image to stare at? The same thing applies to any sort of defining point that one could possibly apply to God. I can honestly see why this happens though: people believe that by finding God in this way, they are establishing a relationship with Him (or Her. Or It). If that is God, I'll shoot myself. Last time I checked, the whorship of false idols was considered a sin. And from what I understand, almost everyone on this planet seems to find God in ignorance. That, in itself, is a whorship of Ignorance, and not a whorship of God.

I think when we want something we should go directly to him not some silly Rabbits Foot or lucky charm, I think you limit him to an object which God is far greater than anyone can imagine, he created the universe and life on this planet.

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I do not believe, for one second, that the result of our existence was for love and charity. I believe that love is an aspect of human nature that is mutual between its components. I believe that charity is a product of compassion. What I believe is that we were created to experience life in its two defining values: the microcosm and the macrocosm. Spirituality is the process of experiencing a side of life that is not found around you. It is the process of experiencing a sort of life within yourself. The every day life in which we experience is the other side of the coin, where we experience life in the macrocosm (the environment around us).

Reason I say charity and love because I am assuming God created us in his own images so he must feel the same as we feel therefore he must of been motivated for love and charity in order to create us.

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Compassion and charity go hand in hand. I believe that charity is a wonderful thing, because it creates a good equilibrium that shifts wealth to those who are needy of it. Charity, however, does make a person any more spiritual than the next person beside them. The only result of charity is that it satisfies a sort of psycological epiphany that allows you to realize that the dollar you do in fact have might be better spent on keeping a boy out of the cold for one day.

Another reason if we are explaining it characteristic wise here is Charity is non ego-istic thats another thing when one thinks he is above another person.  Almost like a humility or humble person one can't approach God in boastful way but in a humility way ie I'm merely nothing compared to God attitude same as all of us sinners approach God that way.

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Giving is a great thing. However, there is such a thing as too much giving. A dangerous form of giving would be self-sacrifice. Would you committ suicide if you believed it would make someone else happy? No, of course not.

Some saints who defended what they believed in their God were executed because they did not believe in someone elses religion.  Those you could say are self-sacrificers.

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Seriously the ones whom body's have not decomposed followed this same principle, try and find one person who's body hasn't decomposed who hasn't followed this principle.

No one's immortal. Our bodies grow and follow a process of decay once we get past our prime. The reason why our bodies decay is because of the cell regeneration process.

I don't think you've studied this field too much yet go to a search engine and type incorruptible body saints or better yet go to amazon bookstore and type those keywords there are books about them. I ain't joking there are bodies with pictures mostly nuns whom's bodies have not decomposed in 350 or so years even children saints as well 100 years and they all led a very religious life. They never put washed them or put any preservatives on them still intact no rot or decay in centuries.

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We are a sum of our thoughts or beliefs which develope our character so therefore our character is our destiny since thats all we carry with us when we die. . .

Reminds me of the old saying I once read/heard, "I think, therefore I am."

Yes or if you want to relate to the old testament whatever you attach to I AM, you become.

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Thought must be a higher-level transcendalist feature because without the cerebral cortex regions, which define the properties of reason, emotions, and what we percieve to be pleasure and pain... thought would otherwise be un-existential. But yet, it is clear that thought defies such a thesis. I am perplexed by this odd paradox and have yet to solev it. At present, it is Life's ultimate question for me: what defines thought in a context that does not permit it necessary?

If you take suffering, the greatest thing is to learn from your mistakes or sufferings so this way you're not stuck in an endless loop of negative emotions and go spiraling down even more I've seen people think Booze or Drugs or Marijuana was their way out but it made it even worse for them they ended up evicted from their apartment.

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. . .just what we did on earth by thinking and acting.  I like how Dr. Joseph Murphy puts it purpose in life is to think right, act right and do right.

And what he or you define as right? The islamic fundamentalists, for example, believe that destroying infidels is right. Does this mean that is it morally correct? No, I do not believe so. It seems that Dr. Jospeh Murphy has a hole in his fabric of logic.

Jesus said the most important commandments in simplified terms is Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself which everyone must follow.  So obviously killing anyone is not right.  But he also said even if you hate a person is still considered murder in your heart that is why it is important to even love your enemies as well and not judge them because you have no right to judge.

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I follow psychology because in there it's scientifically proven to be true (ie whatever you impress in your subconscious is expressed in reality.)

The subconscious has the ultimate impact on the surface mind. That is why self-motivational courses are regarded as a failure. They try to impress upon your surface mind the programming of motivation and positive thinking. To change your reality, one must change the way they think, and to do this, it requires progrmaming the subconscious.

You are right in that you can't teach a old dog new tricks, they have to deprogram or change their thinking which is the toughest thing to do and requires a lot of will power and effort probably as much as one who desires to astral project (that is even a tricky thing a lot of failures before some successes).

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Reading the bible without some psychology is chaos cause what proper system would you use to base your perception or logic on that is which is not 100% proven.

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Oh, but that's what makes it so interesting when you DO apply the concepts of psycology to the gospel. In fact, that alone should give you an understanding why I have I have written my profile signature in the way that it is. Do you believe in an angry, prejiduced, diametric, spiteful, jealous God? I certainly do not.

if you go back to those two important rules to follow so long as you have no messed up or destroyed other peoples lives, taken away their faith or something in that nature then there is no reason why God would be angry with you?  Or like the wiccans say do whatever you like in life but harm no one similar to Jesus's quote.

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The nature of evil, from what I understand, seems less extravagant in reality than how it is portrayed to be. When we are wronged, we feel a need to impose justice on the wrong-doorers that have offended us. Anger and Hate are not byproducts of evil or Sin. Rather, they are the result of natural thinking processes. No one is born naturally hateful or angry, they are simply made to be that way. I do not believe in Evil incognito or as an entity. That is not to say I am living a fantasy here where actions and thoughts that could be classified as "evil" do not exist. Evil, by my understanding, is a metaphor for a state of being that is destructive in some way or another (to the sanctity of life). Ironically, evil is accepted in some areas of our society (we kill both plants and animals to survive), whereas some forms of evil are not (murder, for example, is untolerable). Evil is a hyperbole for reckless hate or destructive decision making. Evil is anything that seeks to undo something else.

Dr. Murphy says evil is using the mind in the wrong ways but true its silly to blame entities for your problems there always has to be a cause and effect scenario somewhere.

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I think it is falliable to assume that evil did not exist before the (theoretical) Fall of Man simply because it is a product of reason. As long as free-will and reason exists, things that can be defined as evil will as well. Evil is not just present in Human society. It is also evident in the animal kingdom. Ever heard of a dog that had to be put to sleep because it had tasted blood? Animals kill animals, not simply for survival, but also because of reason (i.e. jealousy, envy, greed).

If we are no more or less than animals I think we lower our intelligence greatly.  Thank goodness we have a law system (law in the dictionary is also translated as Lord by the way) otherwise we'd be killing each other like in the wild-wild west gun slinger era.

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There are far but few of them who not only can astral project but also tell your future or even tell you possible futures if you act according to them but those have to be clasified as super saints those who never sinned/made a lot of mistakes and lived all for God.

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If you are suggesting that the gospel is credible, think again. It is full of more inconsistencies than holes than you can point a stick at. If you want an ultimate example of bible diametricity, look no further than the first page of Genesis itself. By examining the passages in there alone, I was able to draw up around 7 basic inferences (logic errors) that could not possibly be explained by biblical reason, explanation, or even miracles.

Nobody is perfect in recording events. I've seen the anomalies but it's the thought that counts not the creidibility of sentences. Take for instance when you look at the gospels, one disciple may say the same parableof Jesus slightly different way than the other one or may even say it partially wrong but gets atleast the point across in general.

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I read one quote from mary agreda's city of god it says the more sinner you are the less inspired from god

What do you define as being a Sinner? I am bisexual, does that mean I deserve to die and not inherit the kingdom of God? If you hold a job, you no doubt have (or do) work on Sunday. There is another Sin right there. I question the legitimacy of what should and should not be considered an act of sinning, for much of the excess content in that very book is indeed barbaric, sexist, and downright sick. From a philosopher's perspective, most of what it argues comes down to a matter of what one understands as being morally correct.


You know I made a statement awhile back and after learning about astral projection/purgatory spirit world on this earth I came to realize it still holds true and is the most important thing is not to be obsessed in life and not to feed on another persons obsessions if the impact is negative.  They say even people who are too religious are in the astral and not moved on because they were too religious fanatics caught up in their own religion knocking others down and lacked the other qualities of life or wasn't even considered a spiritual person.  So there has to always be a balance in life I think.  I like saying it this way if you become too compulsive to drink you become a compulsive alcoholic (not treating the temple of god right).  Same as eating, same as gambling, same as negative emotions, same as etc.. etc..
 

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You are or in other words it makes sense you make mistakes you are bound to make more mistakes as a medium, most mediums are not even mediums they're just great BS'ers.

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miracles do happen (ie spontaneous healing) but the best requirement true faith is believing in yourself and not external object or things or evangelists cause none of them get healed it appears, they did an investigation on hinn  70 healings that are claimed, after 8 weeks they gave them 7 people to investigate after waiting 3-10months none of them retained the healings because of blind faith.  It even says in psychology blind faith is not the best faith cause its temporary.

Of course TV Evangelism is wrong. It's capitalist.
I puke whenever I watch 100 Huntley Street (I mean, whenever I see it on TV). Noble intentions, but intentions that come in the form of pride and arrogance. How many christians do you know that have a sense of pride for their faith? Humility, on the other hand, is a wise state of being.

Every preacher has his own interpretation of the bible and usually it's the capitalistic way not the theologian way ie they always like to quote about tithing all your money to them.  Or they got the news/apocalypse hour they instill fear or false prophecies (ie hal lindsey they debunked him the show penn teller's Bulls*t last week how they sell books on fear and the prophecies never came true). The only religious channel I have a little respect for is probably EWTN (catholic channel). They bring on theologians who have a degree or atleast some credentials and talk about spiritual life and not brainwash you to give them the money and they also work on a break even basis just to cover costs, not to have fancy studios or drive fancy cars or ride on fancy jets etc..  

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One thing I have been keeping my eye on lately, is the process of healings, faith, and so forth. Ever heard of a placebo? The effect of believing is no different than a process that programs the subconscious mind. As you yourself said, it has been proven that what is programmed into one's mind is what shapes their reality.

I think 99.99% of the time it's what you describe but it still remains the 0.01% got their healing without having to work out much of their faith just have a little of it (read about the fatima incident about the miracle of the sun people who were healed etc..).

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what can I say money and ego makes wars.  The greatest anti-christ or anti-god will definately be the greatest BS'er in the world cause everyone will believe into their BS.

And as the doomsday naysayers seem to indicate, that day "is at hand"... but what they forget to add is that it has been that way for hundreds of years. The fable of the anti-christ is true only in the way that it can be interpreted in any such manor, and applied to almost any single individual that could possibly fit the profiles. Like Tarrot, the story can apply to many things.

Well as the years progress as we pay more and more taxes we are leaning back towards a communist system cause money in some sense is freedom and like I mentioned before god doesn't like atheism/communism (look at the fatima incident).

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I would not call Iraq a nation to be blessed by God, yet for all of the turmoil it has gone through (i.e. in decieving the world, as the political leaders indicate), it still to this day stands. Does that make it blessed? Having not crumbled by now, I would perhaps say yes if I applied your logic to this scenario.

It's not the peoples fault it's the dictator leaders fault.

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Extending your logic further, no nations of this world are blessed. All nations, under their distinct ideologies are corrupt. Capitalist Democracy is an oxymoron, and even true democracy does not exist within the world. What we live in (what I live in, in particular) is a friendly dictatorship, under the rule of a premier (Gordon Campbell, of the British Colubmia Liberal Party), which is under further rule by the Federal Liberal Party of Canada.
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Democracy is good if all people are treated equally but that is never the case. Usually politicians pretend to be but they are the greatest BS'ers, they only want the peoples votes once they are in their character changes.

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Leviathan you know if you read all the religions or lets take for example super saints (take for instance mary agreda city of god book she wrote revelations her body as a sign hasn't decomposed in 350 years)

Super... saints? Enlighten me on this issue because I have no idea what super saints are. I've never heard of the term before.

Those are the ones who give their will completely over to God that is their lifestyle they completely work for charity I think is a major requirement as a super saint.  If you believe that there is a God he must of created us out of Love & Charity otherwise why would he create us for?  Therefore in simple terms its fair to say whomever works for charity has a major characteristic of God within them also loving everyone as themselves even their enemies.  Seriously the ones whom body's have not decomposed followed this same principle, try and find one person who's body hasn't decomposed who hasn't followed this principle.  There is none, therefore God does give signs to people that there exists a God and this is the character to follow if one wants to follow him.

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what it boils down to looks like is your character is your destiny

You don't really provide a good analogy or explanation of this. I'n not stupid, but I feel you weren't being very clear or concise with your points.

If you want me to explain it further we are a sum of our thoughts or beliefs which develope our character so therefore our character is our destiny since thats all we carry with us when we die just what we did on earth by thinking and acting.  I like how dr. joseph murphy puts it purpose in life is to think right, act right and do right.

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which is true in the astral world whatever character you have you take it with you when you dream and the same thing if you die afterwards you take your conscious with you,

I make it a habit of arguging against this form of mental conscription, namely because human belief changes its position on idealisms faster than the wind going at hurricane speeds.

Rather than holding to belief, I merely keep things like this in mind, as an idealological philosophy / theory. I take a habbit of defending and/or quoting theory I may or may not even necessarily believe on [8D]

I follow psychology because in there it's scientifically proven to be true ie whatever you impress in your subconscious is expressed in reality.  Reading the bible without some psychology is chaos cause what proper system would you use to base your perception or logic on that is which is not 100% proven.

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most important is to develope your conscious/spirituality while you are alive ie pray/meditate change your beliefs/character etc...

Are you saying that through meditation and prayer, you can change yourself? That is only a half-assumption. The real path to changing yourself is through your subconscious mind. That is what affirmations, prayer, and meditation serve the purpose of doing. There is nothing spiritual about it. It is 100% all-natural psycological programming at work. []

New Age believe kindles on the idea that when we die, we move on, but what most people don't explore is the reasons why all of these things happen. What I do not buy into is blind faith, so because the science/logic behind this thing lacks, I do not easily buy into it, though I accept the possibility as a truth (I merely just like to pick at things and analyze them).

its true you can change yourself by reprogramming yourself difficult when they say you can't teach a dog new tricks thus you have to deprogram/omit the old habits but its even more of a blessing if you can help change others for the better or serve others for their own interests and not make a cent out of it.  Take for example give your time to help others. Even a double blessing help those you can't stand to help whom have done you wrong (love your enemies) because that means you don't hate or are judgemental of anyone thus you won't be judged like the quote in bible by jesus says judge ye not so that ye not be judged in the same manner mentally. Now if you have any abilities ie astral projection for exorcism or healings another blessing there because you have spiritual and mental abilities there.

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I am not sure at all about mediums. For the most part, I understand them to be people that are very accomplished at telling a person what they want to hear, or being able to offer very good advice (that is more or less common sense) in a very short time frame.

There are far but few of them who not only can astral project but also tell your future or even tell you possible futures if you act according to them but those have to be clasified as super saints those who never sinned/made a lot of mistakes and lived all for God.  I read one quote from mary agreda's city of god it says the more sinner you are the less inspired from god you are or in other words it makes sense you make mistakes you are bound to make more mistakes as a medium, most mediums are not even mediums they're just great BS'ers.

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I don't buy into that crap for the most part. TV is TV. Miracles and healings have occured in real life before, but that is a different issue, I would come to understand. What makes real life different from TV is that TV attempts to capitalize off public interest.

miracles do happen ie spontaneous healing but the best requirement true faith is believing in yourself and not external object or things or evangelists cause none of them get healed it appears, they did an investigation on hinn  70 healings that are claimed, after 8 weeks they gave them 7 people to investigate after waiting 3-10months none of them retained the healings because of blind faith.  It even says in psychology blind faith is not the best faith cause its temporary.

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But take this into consideration. For years, if not decades, Armaggedon has been theorized to occur in the middle east... in bablyon, if I remember correctly (which to my knowledge is modern-day Iraq). Notice the way current events are shaping lately so that most of the world has become entrenched in a third-world war. People are protesting, but ultimately, there WILL be a war against IRAQ, no doubts about it.

what can I say money and ego makes wars.  The greatest anti-christ or anti-god will definately be the greatest BS'er in the world cause everyone will believe into their BS.

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Thats the most evilist thing to do is to be the biggest BS'er in the world to make money or control over people

You speak of the dark side of capitalism.

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(examples Hitler was one etc..).

I have no idea how Hitler capitalized off the public in the way you are saying (money). Nationalism and Capitalism are different issues. During the Depression, there was nothing for Germany to capitalize off. In fact, it was under a state of Fascism, which was the right-wing opposite of Democracy and Capitalism.

thats another thing I believe God doesn't like is communist/dictators because they take peoples right to believe there is even a God (they want people working on sundays) and you always see a revolution or fall of those nations because of it because they are not a blessed nation.  Take some historical events like supernatural events of Fatima 90years ago changed the who nation overnight with only one miracle from God that could not be disproved in the atheist paper and literally changed the nation back to deomocracy/religious nation.  Hitler waited 10 years til he can brainwash the young kids which is easier to do on kids they believe anything in order to follow him into war then afterwards he started the world war.

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Thats why glad I ain't a leader because to be a leader you cannot be a BS'er if you want to work TRULY on God's side

To be a leader is to lead those who are needing to be led in a direction. Just because one is a follower does not make it any safer. Are you familiar with the dangers (and evils) of blind faith?

right direction that is.  what i see with politicians is they get in and don't do what they promise and whats worst is they like privatizing things so they can make more money by saving and taxing on privatized services which were once free/low cost services ie health care, hydro when they should be working for the people not as a business for their own pockets but to break even.

Leviathan you know if you read all the religions or lets take for example super saints (take for instance mary agreda city of god book she wrote revelations her body as a sign hasn't decomposed in 350 years) what it boils down to looks like is your character is your destiny which is true in the astral world whatever character you have you take it with you when you dream and the same thing if you die afterwards you take your conscious with you, most important is to develope your conscious/spirituality while you are alive ie pray/meditate change your beliefs/character etc...  I also like the show Penn & Teller's BullS*IT its on Showtime fantastic show it shows how people use people to make money by selling them BS such as fake psychics on tv you didn't know they do heavy editing on mistakes/pre readings cause the audience signs disclaimers not to talk to the media, or you didn't know tv evangelists scare people to join their religion so they can be healed but they never show 3 weeks or 6 months later what happened to those people most don't even retain their healing or those who write those apocalyptic books that don't even come true and they go back and revise it or scare people into making a buck.  Thats the most evilist thing to do is to be the biggest BS'er in the world to make money or control over people (examples Hitler was one etc..).  Thats why glad I ain't a leader because to be a leader you cannot be a BS'er if you want to work TRULY on God's side, you have to work for charity because charity can never corrupt a person but money always will. Also god is referred to the uncreated charity he created every living being out of his love and charity and we're on this planet to imitate him or his character.

I think it is I went to sites that actually sell the device assembled charge like $250-420.  One guy asked questions to one of them they refused to give test drives of device saying have to buy it or even refused to give names they say are testimonies that it works.  One guy mentioned he used it all it does is make you drunk, geez you can do the same if you listen to hemisync/binaural sound i doubt its any better.  But its funny things they are saying to get people to buy BS stuff like MIB (men in black) police the past etc if they catch you going to the past they will zap you and you'll have a mark, or may see greys/aliens and govt doesn't want people using these devices or wanting them to give out too much info then after I read all that BS obviously they are taking stuff people have watched in sci-fi movies which are not true and make people believe its true so they can buy it and whats scary is who would want to even put a electromagnetic device on their body if you don't know what the side effects are anyways.  What is bizarre is they said they put a person on art-bell's long time ago who was selling one of these type of devices.  But then again not all guests on the show are credible they just want to sell their BS so they can make money in books etc..  That's the most annoying thing this planet would be a better place if people didn't BS people around so they can sell or take peoples fortune wrongfully especially since they worked hard for the money honestly and not Bs'ing people.

well keep doing what works for you, you just said what the key was only have 6 hours of sleep then wake up early and attempt an obe then go back to sleep if you don't for next few hours.  Same thing with me I only had 5 hours of sleep my mind was awake body was asleep same thing heard static noise then was able to move out just feet were stuck just had to do awareness on feet and i was free.  Also desire/will is important factor as well you probably had that as well determination that is.

they're excellent tools I believe they're more like guided meditation til one advances.  monroe institute gateway wavei  intro to focus10 is a good starter if you want some guided meditation, also tommi's vibration starter (goes from 12mhz to 7mhz which is low alpha) is good as well I use after when I do body awareness exercises using (NEW) and after the tape stops I continue to do the body awareness exercise (still lingers in the body for awhile calmness) and feel like I'm even more energetic because the tapes helped calm me down quickly and the chatterbox mind.  I'm not joking when I say I had my first conscious obe from these tapes never before and I hope to have them again but had them after the tape stopped and continued my body awareness exercise.  Other things to increase your odds which helped my first conscious obe is to sleep only 5 hours and wakeup and either do the meditation or do it later when you retire to sleep when your body is groggy but mind alert and be in desirous mood ie boy this feels good attitude. I've done it without the tapes for one year no results (maybe some lucid dreaming/obe's) but no conscious obe just the body/mind wanders too much doesn't relax as much another good thing is my body doesn't tense up either cause the tapes produce such a relaxation (like I was taking wild lettuce/sleep sedatives).

sounds crazy but breathing in deeply may help one time I had lucid awareness dream I said I want to stay out longer I better breath in deeply (ie fill up the stomach) and started feeling something when I did it.  You can try that out when you obe.

(typical) stages of obe usually are you feel energy rush through your body first when doing body awareness then after that happens you may here static noise for split second (this means you generated your body double and are half in the astral half in the physical) you may at this point see through your closed eyelids or may see after you seperate completely. Personally if you start feeling a certain body part freeing and the other parts are stuck try either to do body awareness on that part that is stuck (ie imagine that part running energy externally) you can also try rope technique as well thats pretty strong to help you seperate.

i'm just curious i thought there would be many demons roaming earth because if a person sins for example pornography he will get a demon of lust, he he's into alcohol etc.. etc.. but for those who are oppressed such as those who were cursed or practiced witchcraft on are more stronger demons and hard to deal with like in robert's book.  Just wondering don't you see the two types if you do how do you distinguish one from the other?

do you have your astral sight when this is happening you could always take a peek if someone is really pulling you or maybe its your own body pulling itself out with your conscious?