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my advice to you is not force yourself to stay up, but simply try practicing at different times. ive practiced about 5-6 times during the day and at least 4 of those times ive had more success than i ever did practicing at night.

so try to switch it up a bit.

Hi Ben K, one of the reasons why we "believe" there must be some type of connection between the physical plane and the astral plane is because of what they call the "verifiable NDEs" or "veridical NDEs".

We inhabit ALL areas of consciousness ALL the time. The only differences are differences in perception. You can call it a "connection" if you want but thats really not whats going on. I can give you a very simple way of observing the "astral" realm. simply imagine something! when you do this you are accessing F2oC. This is where most people switch their perception when they have "astral projection" experiences.

The closest "connection" i think would be the brains middle region, with the pituatary gland and thalamus/hypothalamus region, which converts your subjective energy into objective reality, ie your senses.

Ive read alot of these NDE reports and i have to say they are really interesting. I really dont see how an intelligent person can look at those and still believe that death is "it" or "game over". But like i said, its not about facts, its about BELIEF. Im sure in the coming years science will discover more and more and the religous beliefs will start to finally get out of here.

I guess im just suggesting to you that you work not only on objective "facts" but changing peoples BELIEFS as well. Because that will do much more than just ANOTHER paper about someone who was verifiably dead and saw his surgeory happen or ANOTHER paper about someone having an "OBE". But just a suggestion. I mean i can give you 2,000 more examples of verifiable NDEs and people doing the card trick, etc. but people are simply not going to believe it.

[we need four "ifs":]

Hi Ben K and rest of participants,

In order to obtain scientific proof of these experiences we need four "ifs":

1) "If" there are some experienced projectors who are willing to collaborate with scientist in laboratory experiments according to all the control and security measures of the Scientific Method, and...

2) "If" there is a strong enough connection between the astral plane and the physical plane (not too much distortion, maybe a moderate distortion but not a high one), as to allow those experienced projectors to read two words correctly, and ...

There IS no "connection". The "connection" is a constant thing. The only thing stopping these "experienced projectors" from reading the right words is belief.

3) "If" those positive results can be published in a prestigious scientific journal (Ex: Science, Nature, The Lancet, etc.). This point is VERY important, it will make the big difference, and ...

You will be laughed out of the universe if you give a legitimate scientific journal a study on such an esoteric topic. science simply isnt ready yet.

4) "If" the same experiment could be replicated by several other independent scientists...

Geez thats the toughest one of the group! Its like trying to take LSD and experience the same thing twice!

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
-Carl Sagan

A religious quote from a religious man. Science is a method. Once it becomes a way of thinking, of living, it becomes a religion.

Correct me if im wrong but isnt a method just a set of ideas, which in turn are THOUGHTS or WAYS of thinking?

It is true, there is no such thing as objective proof, just acceptance by academia for what goes in the textbooks as being reality. Since proof isn't possible in the absolute sense, what we, normal people, term as "proof" means something different. Ben K demands proof to be something that isn't possible, knows it isn't possible, and therefore states that everything is a matter of belief (which is true). It's not proved unless everyone believes it, as far as Ben K is concerned.

Not that hard of an idea to accept, is it?

As far as the card experiment, all it shows is that a person can guess what a set of cards will be against some probability. It does not prove how the person does this, and science probably never will. Science is incapable of proving the wider reality, it is grounded to this one. The best it can do is say, this person can do what he claims (as long as what he claims to do has some relation to this reality), but there is no evidence whatsoever for how he does it.

Again, proof means different things to different people. To me the odds of someone guessing a card are so high that with so many successful attempts, i would believe OBEs are "real" based on this data alone. But others will just bring up contradictory beliefs and justify themselves.

Simply, OBEs never will be proved, only accepted (or not) by what evidence can be shown.

Egg-zactly. The trick is to get so much "evidence" that they cannot think up beliefs contradictory to your "evidence". They will then concede and either change their beliefs or bovine excrement their way out of the conversation and go back to their old beliefs.

definitly game

Cool.  

Frank or no Frank, you've lost.  Because you said "OBEs are never going to be proved".  And that was the bet you agreed to.

Well, it doesn't specify when they are going to be/not going to be proved, therefore if we go on for infinity, you never win your side of the bet, because there's always the possibility that they will be proved at some point.

Only I can win this bet.  When you find me in the mass of realities we would be living in, say a squillion years from now, and say, "Hey Selski, you owe me that bet we had during that strange existence on the planet called earth, because OBEs still haven't been proved."

And I'll say, "Well Ben K, there's still another squillion years to go at least, so sit back and keep an eye on them scientists - they'll get there eventually..."



Sarah

Im fine with never winning as long as I never lose  

[belief]

definitly game

keep in mind the difference between "accepted" and "proved". God has never been "proved".

There IS no such thing as "objective fact". only beliefs. and i will bet you my LIFE that there will never be a time when every human believes OBEs are not somehow "fake". There will ALWAYS be beliefs that contradict the OBE experience, no matter how foolish those beliefs may be. I do believe, however that quite soon the whole notion of "astral" travel and other areas of consciousness will become more accepted.

Hell, we can "prove" obes right now. There are NUMEROUS studies and reports on people doing the playing card trick and similar things. Its not about "proof" its about belief.

edit- this topic reminds me of a post by frank i read a while ago. il try to find it.

edit- here it is:

Hi:

As I've said a number of times, one of the most frustrating things about this whole thing, for me, is I cannot actually prove any of it to any semblance of a scientific standard.

I am hoping that between all interested parties we can at least bring this topic into the 21st century, by clearing away this Dark Age legacy that forever seems to haunt this topic. Plus, we can at least get something down on paper, written in a way that makes logical sense. Given that this is the 21st century and all that.

Also, I am hoping that in a couple of years we will have a number of people here who have steadily worked through all the various stages and pitfalls to the extent where we will be able to come to some kind of common consensus as regards our experiences. Perhaps by then we will be able to report some kind of actual meeting within Primary Focus 3 of consciousness and develop some kind of objective proof of that fact. Perhaps not to the standard required of science in a strict sense, but more in an objectively held group-consensus sense.

Personally, I believe the wider reality will never actually be proved. As I've said before, for example, that unless you are some kind of engineering scientist no-one ever actually "proved" the existence of electricity before you used it. People simply switch on a light or plug the kettle in. It's there simply to use as you see fit. I think that is how knowledge of the Wider Reality will start to become. The more people have these experiences then the more people will start to accept them, and so the more people who will have them, and so on.

To my mind, it all boils down to getting this topic wrapped up in an air of public acceptability. People generally still think it's all very freaky and mystical, or on the other side of the coin they think it's dangerous. But the more we try to explain it in a sane and sensible fashion, then the more people will come to accept it, and the more they will want to give it a try.

Yours,
Frank

[never going to happen]

its all semantical nonsense. science is a way of doing things, a way of thinking. anyone will tell you that.

OBEs are never going to be proved. There is no such thing as "proof". You either believe or you dont. You can get your hopes up that some magical device will come out or some magical study will be performed but its never going to happen. There will always be people who believe OBEs are "fake" just like there will always be people who believe in god.

Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge.
-Carl Sagan

[Mactombs]

Mactombs wrote:

It surprises me that someone with your nic would allow someone else to tell you what REALITY is

Well, as a NEO (NEW) person in this field, I still have a lot to discover/learn from the astral plane... Reading in other forums I've found weird stories I don't think I should believe blindly. I understand that most of the people here and from other Astral Forums are still apprentices with just very few 'hours of flight' experience who are willing to 'help' explaining their stories but this, in fact, is only a blind person trying to guide to another blind person...

Correctomondo. No one really knows whats going on, with the "astral" or otherwise. Even the wisest scientists beliefs are based on educated guesses of percieved phenomena. And most of these "scientists" are just payed goons who are given money to produce the right results, if you get what im saying.

That's why I sometimes doubt the 'reality' of the AP's phenomena: If everything on the other side is so real as on THIS side, how come that the experts cannot success 100% in something as 'easy'  :question:  as going to a place in the 'real-world' and explain what's going on there?

Once again its not about REALITY. These things ARE "real" wether you believe in them or not. The real question is what ARE they.

There are no "experts" in this field, im sorry to say. The nature of the work makes it quite tough for anyone to get past their own constructs and actually do some educational and/or helpful work. Its sort of like taking LSD and trying to help an old lady cross the road. Good luck getting anything done when the cars are talking to you, haha. I do believe, however that we are starting to see some actual progress in the field with the likes of robert monroe , laberge, moen and frank k.

I guess what im saying is, this isnt like any other subject where you can just learn from books or other people. This is a very personal, subjective practice that takes alot of time and effort. And thats the easy part. You really have to learn to divide belief from reality, because reality is for the most part, YOUR BELIEFS. Once you get the right beliefs its just a matter of time and effort like i said. So read up on the forums as much as you can, examine your entire belief system, and dont stop practicing.

oh yeah, and practice during the day/ in the morning sometimes! youll thank me later!

I think you guys are forgetting that science isnt some institution but rather a way of thinking. it will get around to OBEs eventually but until then there are two types of people in the world. those who believe in them and those who dont. the ones who believe are trying with all their might to spread their belief while the ones that arent are willing to go through hell to disprove it.

Its not a battle of facts, nothing ever is. its a battle of beliefs.

[If you read the experiences posted on this forum, you will see that most (if not all) of them can be explained as a form of WILDs or regular LDs, which is nothing paranormal]

Beyonder, OBEs are real, even Stephen LaBerge admits that. The "problem" is, there is NO evidence that the experience takes place outside the body.

If you read the experiences posted on this forum, you will see that most (if not all) of them can be explained as a form of WILDs or regular LDs, which is nothing paranormal.

What are WILD's or LD's? Does it imply that OBE's are not real?

Hes basically saying that they are not paranormal because they are dreams with different levels of awareness.

which is like saying all paranormal experiences can be explained as a form of "ghosts". nothing paranormal there right  

[this]

I found this forum few days ago and I've been doing a lot of reading since then.

Frank's posts were so inspiring and so different from other OBErs' POV that I was willing to give it a try... Then I read of his Virtual Class and I got excited with the idea of really being able of OBEing with his teachings and, after more reading, I find out that Frank's missing and still today, December 2005, you/we know nothing about him...

I thought, by all that I've been reading, that on this board there were good Astral Travelers who could have visited Frank to see how he's doing.

I know some of you have tried with little success and this makes me think if all this AP/OBE thing is for real or just a delusion made by our willingness of letting our minds playing trick (imaginary works) as a way to escape from REALITY...

Neo

Lol, dont let our results here get you down. remember this is a new science and what we are trying to do has never been done before. Rest assured that frank is not a con, and all of his posts were truthful and meant to help others.

Frank himself would probably have a really hard time trying to track someone down through non physical means.

this [/b]makes me think if all this AP/OBE thing is for real or just a delusion made by our willingness of letting our minds playing trick (imaginary works) as a way to escape from REALITY...

Hehe...to steal a line from Morpheus what IS real? Your right in saying our imaginations play a huge role in the process but that doesnt make it any less "real". we've just been conditioned to think that whatever we see here on earth is "real" and everything else is "fake". in reality, theres not much of a difference between a car visualized in your mind and a real live car outside in your garage. the only differences are in YOUR perception.

My tip to you is use the search feature to read posts by Frank, MT, etc, and read all the topics in "Permanent Topics" and "Astral FAQs".

For me it's really varied both in control and lucidity. I start in control and sometimes maintain control throughout the experience. In this case it's not phasing (I am in focus 10 though), just regular visualization but more vivid than normal. This is when strange things I don't control pop up. Even though I may plan on visualizing something specific, an entirely different thing will come up. If I'm not that lucid, something strange can happen for quite a long time before I'm aware of what's happening. And sometimes I actually phase, but it's never what I'm visualizing. Normally something freaky.

Agreed I see this alot too. Il be laying there and all of a sudden realize that im starting to dream about some crazy scenario that i hadnt even planned.

I think this is the point where you really have to learn to control your experience if thats what your going for. If you "go with the flow" you will fall asleep so you have to find just the right amount of effort to put out.

From the other thread about "vibrations". i think il just post any experiences i have here in this thread a sort of a journal for myself. maybe it will help others in some way. feel free to post questions etc

Well today i woke up, walked around a bit and decided to practice.

I got the vibes, and this time it went with it. this time they lasted only about what seemed like 5 seconds and were much less intense. I felt myself rising from my bed, but i kept my eyes closed. i knew that i went up and down that, probably about 7 ft up in the air, i could sense it.

Anyway after that I phased into several different places. One was my grandmas house AGAIN. dont know why. but this time i was outside and i was going down the sidewalk. I remember hearing my feet hit the ground as i walked it was so real.

After this scenario i found myself outside what i think was my childhood home. I remember relaxing myself and just letting my emotions calm down. when i did this the environment became MUCH more stable and i was able to walk around slowly, literally one step at a time. as i loosened my focus i would just zip places extremely fast. I remember turning my back to the house and looking around. When i looked back it had totally warped somehow. I was amazed.

I then slipped into a dream where i thought i had woken up. I then actually woke up, amazed

So for anyone who gets the vibrations, just stick with it and eventually you get over them.

Well today i woke up, walked around a bit and decided to practice.

I got the vibes, and this time it went with it. this time they lasted only about what seemed like 5 seconds and were much less intense. I felt myself rising from my bed, but i kept my eyes closed. i knew that i went up and down that, probably about 7 ft up in the air, i could sense it.

Anyway after that I phased into several different places. One was my grandmas house AGAIN. dont know why. but this time i was outside and i was going down the sidewalk. I remember hearing my feet hit the ground as i walked it was so real.

After this scenario i found myself outside what i think was my childhood home. I remember relaxing myself  and just letting my emotions calm down. when i did this the environment became MUCH more stable and i was able to walk around slowly, literally one step at a time. as i loosened my focus i would just zip places extremely fast. I remember turning my back to the house and looking around. When i looked back it had totally warped somehow. I was amazed.

I then slipped into a dream where i thought i had woken up. I then actually woke up, amazed

So for anyone who gets the vibrations, just stick with it and eventually you get over them.

why is it strange?

vibrations come about when you are in the "not ready to OBE, but getting there" part of the game.

the first 5 OBEs you could have skipped over that stage. lots of people do. lots of people never even get vibes at all.

When i ap i find that the memory's are vague, i hardly ever remember leaving my body, and when i return at lot of things i can remember straight away but other parts i don't remember at all. I once met my one of my spirit guides and i didn't remember him until the next time i ap i remember saying to him "i remember you whats your name now" he wouldn't tell me he said you should know by now.

i second that. even 20 seconds after feeling vibrations i have a hard time remembering them. itll probably get better with time and as the dream journal starts workin its magic

Got them again twice, once a day or two ago and again today.

im pretty sure im ready to ride it out, but the thing that always gets me is the "whoosing" sound. Its almost like you relax and you go underwater. The sound literally envelops my body and i feel like im going to explode. quite crazy

i cant wait to see where these things take me

Heres what frank had to say-

The vibrations in the area of your chest is the energy centre that exists in the region of your heart. Mystics call it the heart Chakra but I hesitate to use the word Chakra as there are just too many belief constructs attached. Airplane noises, whooshings and whirrings and all manner of things besides. Yep, it's all very normal, lol.

The heart centre is particularly weird (which is why I like it so much) I set it off for fun about once a week.


I used to get vibrations all the time up until a few years ago when I began the initial work on what became my Phasing Model. I found the vibrations came from a particular interaction between the two energy centres purple and yellow. Nowadays I hardly ever get them unless I activate these areas, which I have no real need to do. In my Phasing approach, you should not get any vibrations or any kind of exit-symptoms at all.

Vibrations tend to come as a result of people shifting their perception about within Focus 1 of consciousness, for example, energy-work or RTZ projection. These are actions that take place within F1oC. Vibrations are symptomatic of the various perception shifts that people can initiate within this area of consciousness.

With Phasing, you seek not to merely shift your perception within one particular area in consciousness. With Phasing, you keep your perception as it is, and set-out to initiate a phase-shift in your actual area in consciousness. This is a different action entirely. It is interesting that if you phase-shift to Focus 2 of consciousness and then start shifting your perception about within Focus 2, in a similar way to how people do within Focus 1, you can also get vibrations, still remain within Focus 2 of consciousness, but experience them as an F2/F1 overlay.


The classic vibrations are the energetic sensations felt from the various energy centres that act as an interface between the pure subjective energy of consciousness and the physical brain and body. People who specifically practice "energy work" regularly experience all manner of energetic sensations including vibrations of various types.

Practicing the Phasing approach can lead a person to feeling mild energetic sensations that are typically felt as a slight static-electricity type of feeling. Tingling and crackling sounds that can sound rather like the hissing of high voltage electricity pylons when it's damp and the air is very humid. But that's about it.

Yours,
Frank

I didnt even want the sonsabitches! basically whenever i go to sleep and im not actually physically tired i become either lucid or wake up to intense vibrations.

The sound i was hearing was the same high pitched sound i hear all the time, just WAY louder and it seemed to be making a swooshing pattern, like if someone where to blow in your ear repeatedly. I know for sure that if i just roll with them i will end up somewhere, (like i said i remember flying out of my body and through my wall a couple times. i also heard voices in the other room even though i was home alone) its just so different to sit here and type it and actually BE there experiencing this stuff, haha

Third or fourth time having vibrations today. i wanted to ignore the sensations so bad but this wooshing sound would get so loud it was unbearable. i was just too scared  

does anyone have stories of vibrations and overcoming their fears? Next time i get them ive decided im going to let them take me wherever.

What do your vibrations feel/sound like? What sensations do you experience?

If you have any information related to the vibes please do post!

Ben

Quite interesting, i just woke up from having an interesting "vibes" experience.

i became aware in the vibrational stage sometime while i was napping this morning. it scared the crap out of me even though ive "been there" before.

anyway i decided to use the chance to do some experimentation. Heres what i felt like- STRONG vibrations, lots of shaking. I heard the wooshing sound that some people report. If i relaxed the vibes became much stronger and the wooshing would become much louder. I found that i could "leave" my body fairly easily in this state. I flew up and out a couple times to make sure. it was quite easy to do this, all i had to do was relax a bit and let the vibrations take over. i then wished myself out of my body and out i went.

Let me be the first to say you DIDNT have a seizure. You ARE going to encounter strange sensations and other new experiences. If you dont want this, phasing is not for you. I realize how hard it is to ignore all the sensations but if you can let go of your fear you will be fine.

good luck,

ben

Frank said it himself-

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=169002#169002

MT:

That's interesting because I have been having a LOT of RTZ experiences recently. As you know this has never really been my thing but I've been practising stepping into Focus 2, and then detuning my awareness to take a step "back" into the wider physical. Mainly just for research for the book. It's not my thing but other people may want to know and all that. So anyway I've been zooming around all over the place. I don't recall any meeting between us but, then again, I've got so many aspects of me milling about here, there and everywhere it's unreal. I step into Focus 2 and I'm surrounded by me.

Yours,
Frank
______

So even if you DO meet "frank" make sure its OUR frank and not some weird bizarro-frank from another focus!

I don't completely agree.
When having an OOBE, the environment is a lot more like reality.
When having a lucid dream, then environment can be anything, and your power over it is a lot bigger.
In OOBE its more sort of an "observer" status ...

Thats because OOBEs take place on "earth". its like the boundary line between the physical world and the mind. lucid dreams on the other hand take place in a variety of environments. sometimes earth-like, sometimes completely non earth-like.

Il say it again- the ONLY difference between DREAMS and LUCID DREAMS/OOBE/AP is your level of awareness.

I don't completely agree.
When having an OOBE, the environment is a lot more like reality.
When having a lucid dream, then environment can be anything, and your power over it is a lot bigger.
In OOBE its more sort of an "observer" status ...

Thats because OOBEs take place on "earth". its like the boundary line between the physical world and the mind. lucid dreams on the other hand take place in a variety of environments. sometimes earth-like, sometimes completelt non earth-like.

Il say it again- the ONLY difference between DREAMS and LUCID DREAMS/OOBE/AP is your level of awareness.

first off, happy b-day!

second, lol, you are the 100,000 person to ask that question. the real answer is there IS NO DIFFERENCE. The only difference between a OBE and a dream is your level of AWARENESS, ie lucidity.

What happened to you was simple. You went to sleep, and became lucid. You then went through what sounds like the vibrational stage, or a lesser version of it, and ended up in the 3d-darkness. you realized that your body was asleep while your mind was still there, ready to go. so you left your body. the shock of actually experiencing this caused you to "wake up".

but you didnt really wake up, you had what we call a "false awakening". VERY common for beginners. Basically your mind is ready to wake up while your body is still asleep. These can get really annoying.

so the officical answer is yes it was an OBE. What more could you ask for in a "real" obe? if it felt real, it was!

keep up the practice and GL!