Messages

Hi Person!

I agree with much that you are saying. I believe that in totality there is the 'all' which for terminology sake we can call 'god' if you like, but although it is indeed sentient, it is so way beyond us that I'm sure it is not aware of us, just as we are not aware of individual cells in our own bodies, it probably has better things to do!

However,  I think there are many other powerful beings (or 'aspects' of the 'all', just as we are, that are also individual) further down the ladder who do actually take an interest in our affairs, these make up all the many deities that humans interact with.
Many of these may well be 'thought form' deities created by us, just as you say happens in 'Black & white' which is based on this idea.

However, where we differ is that I think Christ is yet another thought form  deity like the others, but you do not want to see him that way, but perhaps that is because you believe in him? Because of this, you will want to see him as somehow beyond all this, but I do not, especially given the historical reality of Christian origins. I guess we will just agree to disagree on this point!

I think Christ like many other thought form deities competes for our attention. Actually there are probably at least three Christs since Christianity is split into at least three factions, with Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox. Seeing how these three factions all hate each other, the three Christs probably spend most of their time fending each other off as well!

What I wonder is what happens to deities after people stop beleiving in them. Do they disolve into nothingness, or do they just drop in power until they become 'dormant', and remain so unless people start believing in them again?

I wonder since Paganism is coming back in a big way, perhaps many of the old gods are waking up again, such as the Norse gods for example, who are gaining followers again.

Cheers,
Douglas

Hmm, or next time you're on the astral call out for him and see what happens!

Douglas

twstedrage_

Don't worry, the oil reserves are actually not due to run out for about 50 years, and even then there are possibly large amounts under the surface of antartica which could be raped.

However, I think it will probably work out just perfectly, as most scientists have been saying that workable nuclear fusion power (zero pollution, runs on sea water) although already invented, would not become a feasable alternative for other fuel types of at least another 30 or 40 years.

Which means that it will phase in gradually just as the old fossil fuel reserves are starting to run out... so I see no great problem.. the doom mongers see everything in the worse possible way.
The only thing that needs to be done is to manage the continuing pollution content of the old fossil fuels until around 2040 or so, which although a problem  I agree, is certainly manageable.

Douglas

Sorry guys, but I agree with James on this one, and I DO know plenty about Tolkien and the background.

I can say that the site refered to is complete sh*t! and if you want to beleive that then you are more gullable than I could possibly imagine.

Tolkien was a professor of Anglo-saxon (or old english: the Germanic ancestors of the modern english) at Oxford university. He wanted to write this fantasy history in order to have a playground for all his invented languages, as he was a specialist in linguistics, the history of Middle-earth arose out of this.

Most of it is actually contained in his myth cycle of Middle-earth, called 'the Silmarillion'. This was used as the background history when he eventially decided to write some stories based in this world (The Hobbit, and 'The Lord of the Rings').

Tolkien stated quite clearly that his world was 'an imaginary history of our own world', that is a fantasy version of our own early history. So yes, it IS set in the past world of earth, but a fantasy past.

He also made it clear on no uncertain terms that it was a story, plain and simple, with no allegory or metaphors.
However, he sees nothing wrong with 'applicability', that is fine, but allegory oversteps the mark as far as he is concerned.

The reason you all find parralels is because Tolien was a devout Catholic and used a certain amount of Catholic ideas when he was formulating his world.
For this reason in the Silmarilion, you get the fall of morgoth, the first dark Lord, who was originally the greatest of Eru's (god) servants but who fell from grace; he was called Melkor but after his fall he was renamed Morgoth (great enemy). Sound familiar anyone?
The Sauron of Lord of the rings was but a servant to Morgoth in the early days.

Tolkien also based much of his story on anglo-saxon myth as well as other real myth-cycles.
Numenor, where the men of the kingdom of Gondor originated from is based on the Atlantis myth (doh!).

The Rohirrin, or kingdom of Rohan are specifically based on the anglo-saxon culture, the movies were faithful to this so that is why you should spot the germanic/nordic style of their language, names, dress and (esp) architecture.
In fact, in the extended edition of the Two towers, Eowyn's lament at Theodred's funeral, she is actually singing in real olde english!

The Maiir spirits who come to earth to assist in the fall of Sauron and who take the form of old men (the 'Istari' which translates as 'order'), the word 'istari' is also known as 'Wizard'. These are the guys of whom Saruman, Gandalf and others not in the movies belong to.

While Tolkien specifically denied that Gandalf is any kind of christ allegory, it has to be said that he certainly has a 'biblical' thing about him, especially after his return, more like an OT prophet perhaps.

However, there is also Norse influence in Gandalf's formulation, as the Norse god Odin was sometimes said to take the form of 'an old man' and to wander among men. Tolkien, given his knowledge of germanic/nordic culture, was aware of this.

Other germanic/pagan influences include the rings of course, cf Wagner.

Tolkien wanted to emulate that great anglo-saxon poem 'Beawulf' which is a pagan anglo-saxon story but which was eventially recorded by christian monks, and in doing so it was infused with 'christian concerns'.

Tolkien liked the way this had been done, and he also greatly admired these 'pagan pre-christian heroes' who were good at heart and led good, honourable lives, and were loved by god, even if they were not christian, as it was hardly their fault that christianity had not arrived yet! Some Christian fundamentalists should take note of this obvious fact, before condemning non-christians to hell, cf one level of Dante's inferno, reserved for all those who were around before christ...ridiculous!

tolkien had a similar idea to do the same with his book, although this was secondary, the main point was ALWAYS to tell a good story and to get a shot of using his languages.

Basically, as Tolkien himself said, 'I am writing a primarily pagan story, set in a pagan world, with pagan characters, but It is INFUSED WITH CHRISTIAN CONCERNS'
For this reason you get Christian themes like, redemtion, res-erection and so on, but the Christian themes are, I repeat NOT his main reason for writing, they just came naturally.

All this can be found in the forward (written by the man himself) to the book Lord of the Rings, so there is no excuse for getting your facts from crap websites. Other info can be gotton from his Letters, also published.

Regards
Douglas

Janette_DuCharme_

Hi!

I agree that we are all thought forms of some kind and that the universe itself could be said to be created in this way.
Of course, use of the terms 'god' or 'him' are simplifications just so we can discuss the basic concepts; however, I agree that gender-specific terminology should be phased out, although funnily enough, you don't hear this very often coming from the fem-dominated Wicca scene!

I subscribe to a pantheistic view of the universe as 'sentient'. However, by this i dont just mean the visable physical universe, although this is one view of so called 'naturalistic pantheism', which christian critics often make the mistake of assuming is the only type of pantheism.
I am of the other 'classic' persuasion that includes all the inner or astral worlds as well, not just the 'narrow band' that we perceive here.

Also, while naturalistic pantheism doesnt really view the 'all' as sentient as such, classical pantheism *does* believe that the 'all' is sentient, although way beyond our comprehension. For this reason I don't think it takes an active interest of us down here or is aware of itself down at our level, it probably has more interesting things to do. I think there is probably a pyramid heirarchy of beings, or 'aspects' of the 'all', some of which are much further down, near to our level who DO take an active interest. These make up all the many deities that humans perceive.

Right, that's bored everyone so I'll be off now!



Douglas

You can either believe the Bible or just pick and choose

An example of a typically limited viewpoint.

More correctly, you either believe what's in the bible or you don't.

Perhaps some day you will be more spiritual regarding this matter, and seek wisdom from the Lord.

You are obviously of the blinkered 'if you dont believe in the bible you dont believe in god' world-view.

You will be in my prayers

Thank you. You have my sympathies.

Regards,
Douglas

Shaman_

Interesting... although some will argue that since attacks and killings  occur in Israel/Palestine, Iraq, N Ireland, Republic of Congo (where over two million have died over the past 10 to 20 years without much notice from the west, probably because there is no oil there), Sudan etc, on a regular basis, it is not suprising that if you dream about a generic bomb blast or killing, you won't have to look very far to find it, also, if you dwell on such thoughts, even if only on a subconscious level, thse images will turn up in your dreams from time to time.

Just a thought, although at the same time, maybe you DO perceive possible future events!


The flashes don't have to be during dreaming. The flashes appear as light flash, but they can also be seen a an opening of a portal for an instant, a clear crystal-like film sometimes.Usually this occurs during resting or getting ready to drift off to sleep.   WISP

Wisp, I am familiar with this effect as it is the early stages of the phasing process. It is possible to experience this level of consciousness when just drifting in or out of sleep. This level, which manifests as an 'astral cinema screen' effect is what Monroe would refer to as 'Focus 12'.

Some people spend ages meditating trying to bring on the screen effect but I often just experience it when I got to sleep or wake up.
The astral screen is a vision of some place in the astral. To those who have experienced this effect, you will know what I am talking about when I say it is ULTRA-realistic, more than a 3D moving image. You can just sit and watch what is going on or you can take the next step which is to *will* yourself (you/ your mind) forward into the scene. You will find yourself moving INTO the scene and into the astral itself; well done, you are now someplace in the astral!

This is the phasing process, as described by Monroe, Frank and others who practice this form of astral projection which sends you directly INTO the astral world.

Since the akashic records (records of all past events and projections of possible future events based on what has come before) are said to reside on the astral some where, it doesnt suprise me that some people get flashes of such events, which are played out in some region of the astral, which is what you are tapping into in your 'visions'.
Remember however, that the records are 'possible futures' and are subject to change depending on circumstances, so for this reason not all visions turn out to be accurate. This is why prophets' predictions do not always turn out to be correct, as something unforseen comes along aftewards and changes circumstances. eg I actually have a lot of respect for seers like Nostradamus, I know that some people give him some grief, but I think he saw things accuratly from where he was, although things have occured since which changed the future as he saw it. The individual who experienced the visions that inspired 'Revelations' in the bible is another case in point, as they are based very much in the world of his own time (imo, these visions were refering metaphorically to the fall of Rome, which is somewhat ironic seeing that its the Roman empire who was responsible for taking christianity and transforming it into the world religion we all know today!!! but that story belongs in another forum!)

Ok, thats my rant over! But wisp, try to use this effect next time to enter the scene yourself and see what happens!

Douglas

Douglas

hehe and ours!

btw I'm Scottish so I like screwing with the heads of our English friends 'down south' as well. If it was up to me Scotland would be independent from england again, but hey, that my opinon. Anyhow, we've got our own parliament back again so thats something.. we're 'semi-independent' or devolved... or is that de-evolved?

Anyway, whats with this Patriot act thang?

Lets hope it doesnt refer to Mel Gibson's 'The Patriot', the biggest pile of horsesh*t I've ever been forced to endure and also a historical joke.... eg He's a plantation owner but he doesnt own any slaves...yeah right!

seriously, i take it the Patriot acts are measures brought in after 11th september to 'protect' you all, but ends up eroding civil rights?

Thats what's happening all over actually. Its the same here in the UK. The law was changed last year so that the police now have the ability to arrest and detain individuals for an unspecified time, without formal charge. This comes under the new 'anti-terrorism' law.

What people don't realise is that such laws can and do get abused by those in power. It is a historical fact that it is very easy to bring in a new law but very difficult to remove it again. Such laws may be used and abused by those in power in the future, long after the actual time to which the laws were applicable to. It really is storing up trouble for the future.

Regards,
Douglas

Interesting debate there on objective vs subjective morality. I used to think that there was probably some kind of objective morality we could arrive at, but once I finished doing 1st year philosophy, that idea was wiped!
The academics have been raging about this for years but most of the arguments now are leaning towards the idea that morality, like reality, is subjective and relative.
Although some of you might disagree like i used to, once I sampled some of the main arguments against objective morality (and reality), i realised how difficult it is to maintain any kind of objective stance... sorry for those who dont like that idea, but some of the arguments against objective morality are formidable, not least the fact that a culture's perceptions of right and wrong *change* over time, just as everything else does. ie What was unacceptable in the past is acceptable now, just as some of our views now, may be unacceptable in the future.
Even seemingly basic examples like 'torture is bad' are not always clear cut.
For example, Some in the US govt. have stated that torture should be considered in some cases, eg if a terrorist is captured who knows the whereabouts of a bomb that is about to go off, but he is refusing to talk. This statement would have been inconceivable coming from the US government before 11th September, but not now.

Now, the above scenario will generate opinions both for and against the moral worth of such a decision.. and thats the point. You will never be able arrive at a fundamental objective morality simply because humans disagree with each other about things. They do so because everyone perceives the world in a different way. The objectivists can take their argument no further than to say that there is some kind of objective morality out there, but since humans will never reach a universal agreement as to what that is, the theory will alays remain just that, a theory. Meanwhile, the reality is that we all constuct our own moral framework.



On a personal level, I think that because our consciousness is so restricted to our own narrow-minded, distorted little perception of reality (the 'Time-space illusion' as Monroe calls it), we are in no position to judge what is trully 'right' or 'wrong' with regards to the 'big picture'. In fact, from our physical world perspective it is most likely impossible for anyone to discern accurately the quality of any thought or action and its long-term significance. Our self-created ideas of good/evil are illusions as far as the totality is concerned, although they may seem real enough to us. As Robert Monroe says 'In orbit, there is no up and down'.

So even if there is any kind of divine *truth* or ultimate order out there, it is way beyond our limited scope to perceive it. For this reason, the only thing we can do is decide what is good and bad for us, which is in effect a subjective, moral view. Every culture defines its own rules. In my view, for the reason given above, there will NEVER be any final absolute moral objective truth declared that will be accepted by everyone. To anyone who thinks such a thing will happen, well as Morpheus says 'You're living in a dreamworld Neo!'

Douglas

Check www.religioustolerance.org which has infor on this religion.

It is still practiced in Iran and some other areas.
It has had a great influence on late Judaism and Christianity.
It was from Zoarastianism that Judaism inherited the concept of dualism, that the world is a battleground between opposing forces of good/evil. The concept of a leader of this opposing force (Satan) was only formulated in the second century BC.
This dualism concept was later take even further with Christianity.
Its very interesting when you think how used we are to this concept, we think it has always been around, but such a concept would be quite alien to Classical thought.

Classical thought (Greco-Roman) thought more in shades of 'grey', everyone was a complex mix of moral shades, even a creature who was nasty, like the Gorgan, might have some nicer characteristics as well.

In many ways the classical way of viewing this is much closer to our own post-modern viewpoint, where the judeo-christian (and therefore Islamic) black/white division is seen as simplistic.


Zoarastianism is also monotheistic but there is some controvesy about which influenced which, with the Jews convinced they came up with the idea first, and the opposing view of those who think that zoarastianism influenced the early polytheistic jews.

The latest thinking suggests that both are wrong, as there is some evidence that both groups may have formed monotheistic philosophies  independently of each other.

Douglas

Hi Ossian!

Thanks for your post, very interesting!

I agree with you that Wicca and Neo-Druidism have only a limited conection with old pagan practices. Wicca esp. has no great connection as you say.

neo-Druidism has slightly more, or at least is on the right track, as although we cannot re-construct all the specific rituals and beliefs, we do have soem basic notions and a 'framework' to work with, and the two basic precepts:  of aquiring knowledge or lore and respecting the earth, can be used as foundations with which to build on.
So although neo-Druidism is new, a good proportion of its 'spirit' is certainly old and provides a good framework to construct a 'new druidism'.

I would just like to note that I have no problem with Wicca or any other neo-pagan system. Even if they are all new, they all contain at least some original 'sentiment' as it were. To criticise Wicca because Gardner made it all up or whatever is unsound, since Wicca has moved on and has continued to develop since then, and as one wiccan pointed out, if religions were all rated on their *historical truths*, then all religions, Christianity included, would be undermined. However, it is not about historical origins, it is about a way of life and viewing the world.

Concerning the Celts,
Thanks for your description of the Celtic/Aryan migration theory. I was wanting to ask you what you thought of the other theory that is doing the rounds at the moment, esp in academic circles:
ie this is the 'celtic culture theory', which reckons that there was no large scale migration as such, rather the celts were the same people who had always been there (at least since neolithic times) but that it was the *Celtic culture itself* which spread, being formulated in the Latiene(?) region in modern Switzerland, and then spreading across Europe, possibly through trade. Celtic culture was essentially a fashion (a set of ideas inc. culture/art/religion) which was quickly picked up by people as it spread until by around 500BC, most of Central and western Europe had adopted celtic culture.
This accounts for all the regional differences.

A half-way house between this theory and the earlier one is that perhaps there WAS a spread of ideas and culture but ALSO it was assisted by SOME small scale migrations which helped spread these ideas.

Certainly it has been postulated for some time that the 'aryan group' actually refers to a language group rather than a people. This was known before the War, however, Hitler got the wrong end of the stick and thought it refered to people, in fact many thouht this, even in Britain and the US.  This language group spread from india into the west.
This would be consistent with the concept of the Celtic culture being a spread of ideas rather than people.

What do you think?

Douglas

All the signs are here that we are near the end of the age. I believe that sometime within the next 20 years the Rapture will occur, when all who have accepted and have been cleansed by the blood Christ are take up in an instant to heaven, and will be saved from going through the 7 year Tribulation period


hmm, Well I won't hold my breath, but everyone's entitled to their beliefs!

In mine, I believe that people like us will be sitting discussing about how the 'end times are coming' a hundred years from now, just as they did a hundred years ago, and a thousand years before that. The 'signs' are always 'there' if you look for them; but that just my take on it; just don't go and try and bring it about yourself by building atomic bombs or killer viruses aka '12 Monkeys'!!!

However, I do support the more moderate line taken here and the one which is followed by most sensible christians whereby even non-christians can still go to heaven if they have lived a good life, as it is possible to be 'good at heart but mistaken'.

This angle puts the Christian god in a much better light than before and protects against that odd and never entirly confortable notion of him being a god of 'unconditional love' even although in the previous model he condemned thousands or even millions of fundamentally good people to hell just because they hadnt quite got the idea of being Christian or were wrapped up in their own allbeit mistaken (from a xian pov) religion.

As far as I know, the catholic church has already adopted this modification, but how widespread is it amongst other christian 'factions' as it were?
I think it essentially rescues christianity and is a reasonable approach which is probably why it is adopted by most reasonable, moderate Christians, but I'm guessing the 'fire & brimestone' community are having none of it?

Regards,
Douglas

cailin_

Sorry if I was coming over as picky Cailin, its just that in your earlier post it was worded as if you had no idea of such a thing as Scottish Gaelic. Pardon me if I interpreted that the wrong way, but I think it was the bit about Gaelic being no longer spoken 'on that island' which was confusing, as clearly, in Scotland, Gaelic IS spoken although it is of course part of 'that island' you speak of!

The Scottish parliament is encouraging Gaelic but is a long way off from making is compulsory like you say it is in Ireland, more's the pity.

There is a similar situation in Scotland however, as after the Jacobite rebellion in 1745, the English banned the Scots from using 'the Gaelic tongue' as well as the famous ban on 'tartan' (the Plaid, not the 19th century invented tartans of course).
These bans were only repealed in the 19th century but it has taken a long while for Gaelic to re-assert itself, although it is doing so now, and indeed in some areas of the highlands it has always continued to be spoken, ban or no ban.

Regards,
Douglas

The Gaelic language is still spoken in Ireland, Britian once spoke it too but it has been lost on that island. It now exists only in France and Ireland.


The island of Britain is made up of two countries remember... England AND Scotland. (three if you count Wales but Wales was only ever a Principality, not a soverign country, however, Welsh is also a celtic tongue and is spoken there).

Sorry, Cailin, but Gaelic is also spoken in Scotland, I should know as I am Scottish and live in the country

Scottish Gaelic and Irish Gaelic differ in some ways however, but it is indeed spoken in areas of the highlands and the Scottish parliament also encourages others to learn it with Gaelic tv programs etc.

Regards,
Douglas

I think it's good to always remember that what we define as an 'expert' is only relative to us. On a larger metaphysical level our minute grain of half-knowledge is probably laughable!

One on my favourite occult proverbs is applicable here and should be remembered by all so called 'experts':

'To realise that you know nothing is the beginning of wisdom'


Douglas

I think that some people are overly negative about the forums. This forum is still, by far, THE best astral related forum on the internet. I have learned so much during my time here and I have been able to put plenty of this advice to good use; as a result my astral experiences have been transformed, but it woudnt have happened if I had not spent the time here, sharing experiences and debating/learning techniques theories etc.

By far the most important aspect has been the encouragement that people on the forum give eoch other, it gives you the incentive to keep pushing your next experience to get that little bit extra, also great is the incentive to do well so that you can post your experience for others to see and hopefully comment on; the chance to share in each others experiences is something that many people here dont have a chance to do out there in the 'real' world, where friends and family have no interest/knowledge of astral related matters.

I was a newbie here myself once, as we all were, but although I agree that there are some threads that I no longer read as I am so familiar with the material, I absolutly support the continuation of them, as I recognise that there will be others like me, who come here for the first time and need as much info as possible.

All we are talking about is being selective. Feel free to ignore threads that you know inside out, and look for the gems of info and experiences that you require now, you WILL find them in amongst all the other information; there are some great threads out there.

Like others, I will only post astral experiences which I feel to be exceptional in some way (to my previous ones), also I dont have time to type out every experience I have on a regular basis, I wish I did!
However, If people are interested I will try to make more effort in future.

If there is a problem, perhaps it is the sheer amount of sub-forums. Before, when there were less, the info coming in was more concentrated and therefore there was a greater amount of good posts in any one forum; now it is spread thinly over a huge variety of somewhat pointless forums imo ('magic' for example, do we really need a forum dedicated to it?

So If I was going to suggest anything, it would be to perhaps prune away some of the more pointless forums so that everyone is channeled into a smaller selection of good ones. That is how it was in the past and it worked very well.

Perhaps this has been realised already, with the closure of one of the 'energy' forums.

Anyway, stay positive and remember that this is by far the best astral related forum out there and has the best 'community spirit', which is essential for giving encouragement and driving forth progress!

Onwards and upwards!
Douglas

Hello Atalanta!

Welcome to 'Astral Pulse'. This is a great forum and is useful as a learning tool and to exchange ideas and experiences.

This is very important for many people who have had experiences as they often feel very alone, as if they are the only person in the world to have experienced the same thing. I used to be in this position. Now, thanks to this forums, I have seen that in fact I was not that unusual after all!

The forums can be especially useful as often people are not comfortable with sharing these experiences with friends and family and the site provides a platform to do so.

Whats more, the debates here can be great fun, even when they get out of hand, as they sometimes do; all in all the participants are great fun and very helpful.

All the best!

Douglas

Not really, I am a big Tolkien fan (long before any of the movies, although they are good as a movie interpretation), but I can't see Morgoth or Sauron invading 'Middle-earth' any time soon.

Rowling has just taken a few common 'spooky' ideas and integrated them into her story. In the end the Potter books are simply 'boarding school adventures' with some magic thrown in. Not really a new format (apart from the magic).

Any attempt to see it as 'realistic' in any way is almost as bad as the gullible teen fraternity who at the moment are obsessed with DBZ and think, because it has a (vague) reference to actual chi practice, although it has beeen exagerated out of all recognition, that it is a realistic example of things people can do (btw I don't mean you Atalanta, just some people).

Like all obsessions with tv shows, it will pass, although of course I don't want to compare Harry Potter with DBZ as clearly the former is far superior in the sense that the creator obviously has a brain.

Regards,
Douglas

PS there is nothing wrong with being a Harry Potter fan, just in case anyone thinks I'm having a go at them!

In the earliest recordings of his teachings he only ever refered to himself as 'Son of Man', never 'son of god'.

Furthermore, he described himself only as a 'herald of the kingdom of god', which can be interpreted in several ways but a 'prophet' is certainly one possibility.

He also preached *only* to Jews and actually forbade his diciples to teach to non-jews. Only jews were to be part of the coming 'heavenly kingdom'. Jesus Was a jew and his teachings were for jews..only. It was only after Jesus' death that Paul later pioneered the 'new way'.

Also, rather than annulling the 'old law' and the 10 comandments etc, he actually demanded a stricter policy of adhering to the old laws. Much of the new testemant teachings about the old laws being fulfilled and no longer valid is simply untrue and later addition. Jesus believed it was his mission to further enforce the *old laws* which he felt some jews were slacking off from. He tought that only by leaving their old lives behind and by living in strict accordance with the jewish teachings could one enter the 'heavenly kingdom'(which was imminent apparantly).

it was only later after Jesus' death that a some of his diciples, like Paul pioneered 'the new way' which was geared towards teaching non jews, but this new policy was quite against Jesus' original teachings, drawing resentment from many of Jesus's original Jewish followers.

As time wore on, jewish followers of Jersus' original teachings saw how the teachings were being increasingly transformed into a genteel religion and was moving rapidly away from their original form, ending up with the new testement writings, written variously from around 60AD to 80-100AD.

Christianity eventially became a genteel religion in its own right and especially during the 3rd century, when the concepts of Incarnation, Redemption and the Trinity were first formulated.
Later after the sack of Rome in 410, Augustine proposed the idea of 'original sin', although this concept has never been accepted by the eastern (orthodox) church.


I know that many of you will say that I am simply wrong here and that these things are difficult to accept for some christians, but the above data on the origins of christianity has *long been known* in scholarly circles but it is only recently that such research has moved out of academic circles to become more well known in general, however, I think it is the right of every christian to know about the origins of their religion (if they wish to).

I advise checking out your local divinity and ancient history department at university for more info on this interesting topic.

Douglas

Not that I totally blame you, but there is a reason the Church has been around for so long.


You're right, its called 'force'. Is it any wonder that since the enlightenment of the 18th century and especially more recently, now that the church no longer has the power to *force* people to adhere to christianity, that its numbers are falling as people are once again free to follow their own beliefs or at least be free to *think for themselves* and explore other systems? (the 17th century, esp the witch trials was the nadir for many more enlightened thinkers)

I am quite aware of why chrisitanity has been around for so long being an ancient historian myself: it got off to a good start thanks to the Romans, as once Christinity was adopted by the Roman state the entire empire was transformed into a christian theocracy, much in the same way that fundamentalist Muslim regimes are run today.
Chistianity as you recognise it today is a legacy of the Roman empire to the modern world along with government, law and other facets; all these have survived because the Greco-Roman world is the basis for western civilisation.

It quickly became THE way to rule and back up state authority.
Religion, esp christianity in our context was (and still is in some areas) a tool used for social and political purposes and for enforcement.

To say so is absolutely blasphemous.... Not "merely different," drastically different, unbiblical, heretical.

Luckily, for the rest of us, such statements are not really very scary any more.

Judging by your use of words exothen, if you were born a few hundred years ago, you would have been quite happy to burn the 'unbelievers' at the stake! I suppose, if you had your way, you would ban all other faith systems, make paganism illegal etc?? Please let me know!

I also take it that you accept every word of the bible as absolute fact, and as Jesus originally intended, with no distortion, addition, subtractions, corruptions whatsoever? Just wondering!

I am not a christian anyway, so I shoudlnt even be reading this forum, but I like to drop in occasionally to see how your all doing and to see if the usual routine of cursing the unbelievers to burn in hell (nice) is still popular, which it still is, no wonder christianity is losing poplarity!

Regards,
Douglas

Shaman,
As I said, I dont think we should get to hung up on the term 'angels' and try to find one single definition of them from any one particular religious context.

In reality all religions have ideas about higher beings, going by various names. Most people in the west, whether Christian, Muslim, Jew or 'New ager', whatever, use the term 'angel' as it is a convinient word within our western cultural context.

In the east such as in Buddhist terminology, such beings are known as Boddhivistas or Bosatsu, and are described as radiating pure love (the diference baing that *most* boddhivistas were once human at some point in their development, although not all).

The umbrella term 'angel' that we use covers a WIDE RANGE of different beings some of whom seem to radiate 'pure love' as described and others who come across quite differently, however they are all extreemly high level.

Some people seem to have an urge to categorise everything neatly so we know what everything is and its nature and attributes (a common human urge) but I think in reality things are a bit more complicated.

Douglas

Now that I am back I discover that some a talking about masturbation on the forum.


Yeah, but that is taken out of context. The masturbation issue was a serious discussion especially how some people were concerned about the issue of masturbation, due to long term hang ups about it, especially due to christian dogma.

However, I agree that all the DBZ crap and demon war gobshite has got out of hand and seems to be the current obsession with the early teen band at present.

It never fails to amaze me the influence tv shows have on these guys, the whole dbz and demon war crud is influenced by japanese anime; the dbz crap has very little relation to real chi practice and rather gives us an indicator as to the extent that some people cant tell the difference between tv shows and reality.

My advice is simply to ignore such topics and wait for the fad to pass, which it will!

Regards,
Douglas

Jesus takes all the Christians to heaven (altered consiousness, or the 5th dimension, possibly?). The non-believers in Christ will be left on earth, apart from God, and all that is good. After a period of time they, along with the devil, will be cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity (Hell).

I just love it!
btw the 'mayan prophesy' as it is portrayed is in no way related to the christian scenario. For a start there is nothing about 'non believers' burning in hell, or indeed any kind of mass-death. This is all fantasy and is also the influence of, may I say it, Christian apocalyptic mythology; that is, you are trying to view other traditions through the lens of christian mythology, which leads to all this nonsense, including all the recent crap about 'demon wars' etc, which have absolutly nothing to do with Mayan tradition, but plenty to do with Christianity.


To my point:
You know, I recognise that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but the constant harping on about various 'doomsday' scenarios really gets on my t**s, mainly because thats all Ive heard for the past 10 years+!!

First it was Nostradamus and July 1999, which everyone had 'good' evidence, whats more it was even 'backed up' from other non-related 'traditions',
then we had the millenium crap, even when it turned out that due to a re-arangement of the calender, the millenium had already passed sometime around 1996 our time!

I was hoping for some sanity after 2000 and a hope... just a single glimmer of hope, that maybe, just maybe, once people had went through all that without any of it happening, then they LEARN not to be obsessed with all these kinds of 'revelations'.

But no, now its '2012' and we have to endure another 8 years of this stuff. In the past i would have said that i was looking forward to 2013 when (of course) nothing will have happened, but I now know that by that time, excuses will have been given and attention will have been transfered to some all new great prophesy. Add to that a whole new generation eager for their own 'doomsday' prophesy to call their very own, (which is what this mayan one is actually), and the rest of us basically have no respite.

btw, I would just ask that some of you who are into this 2012 stuff might want to check out some of the fact (proper facts!) about this as I have read in some academic journals that this whole thing has come about through a complete mistranslation and distortion of the original texts which in reality mean nothing of the sort.
Hoevever, now that the story is out there, it has taken on a life of its own, promoted by money grabbing new age writers and credulous readers.

I am in no way saying that this is the case IMV, so dont hit me with complaints about this opinion. I don't know either way. I just want to point out to people that there is actually a controvesy about this whole issue and people who are interested might want to check out the facts and not just rely on 'mayan prophesy websites' or whatever.

Above all, I would just like to invite all readers to remember this post in 9 years time when they wake up on the 1st January 2013 and find that they have NOT been elevated to a higher vibrationary level or whatever the theory is.

Thank you.
Goodnight.

Douglas

You know, I know everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but the constant harping on about various 'doomsday' scenarios really gets on my t**s, mainly because thats all Ive heard for the past 10 years+!!

First it was Nostradamus and July 1999, which everyone had 'good' evidence, whats more it was even 'backed up' from other non-related 'traditions',
then we had the millenium crap, even when it turned out that due to a re-arangement of the calender, the millenium had already passed sometime around 1996 our time!

I was hoping for some sanity after 2000 and a hope... just a single glimmer of hope, that maybe, just maybe, once people had went through all that without any of it happening, then they LEARN not to be obsessed with all these kinds of 'revelations'.

But no, now its '2012' and we have to endure another 8 years of this stuff. In the past i would have said that i was looking forward to 2013 when (of course) nothing will have happened, but I now know that by that time, excuses will have been given and attention will have been transfered to some all new great prophesy. Add to that a whole new generation eager for their own 'doomsday' prophesy to call their very own, (which is what this mayan one is actually), and the rest of us basically have no respite.

btw, I would just ask that some of you who are into this 2012 stuff might want to check out some of the fact (proper facts!) about this as I have read in some academic journals that this whole thing has come about through a complete mistranslation and distortion of the original texts which in reality mean nothing of the sort.
Hoevever, now that the story is out there, it has taken on a life of its own, promoted by money grabbing new age writers and credulous readers.

I am in no way saying that this is the case IMV, so dont hit me with complaints about this opinion. I don't know either way. I just want to point out to people that there is actually a controvesy about this whole issue and people who are interested might want to check out the facts and not just rely on 'mayan prophesy websites' or whatever.

Above all, I would just like to invite all readers to remember this post in 9 years time when they wake up on the 1st January 2013 and find that they have NOT been elevated to a higher vibrationary level or whatever the theory is.

Thank you.
Goodnight.

Douglas

You know, I know everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but the constant harping on about various 'doomsday' scenarios really gets on my t**s, mainly because thats all Ive heard for the past 10 years+!!

First it was Nostradamus and July 1999, which everyone had 'good' evidence, whats more it was even 'backed up' from other non-related 'traditions',
then we had the millenium crap, even when it turned out that due to a re-arangement of the calender, the millenium had already passed sometime around 1996 our time!

I was hoping for some sanity after 2000 and a hope... just a single glimmer of hope, that maybe, just maybe, once people had went through all that without any of it happening, then they LEARN not to be obsessed with all these kinds of 'revelations'.

But no, now its '2012' and we have to endure another 8 years of this stuff. In the past i would have said that i was looking forward to 2013 when (of course) nothing will have happened, but I now know that by that time, excuses will have been given and attention will have been transfered to some all new great prophesy. Add to that a whole new generation eager for their own 'doomsday' prophesy to call their very own, (which is what this mayan one is actually), and the rest of us basically have no respite.

btw, I would just ask that some of you who are into this 2012 stuff might want to check out some of the fact (proper facts!) about this as I have read in some academic journals that this whole thing has come about through a complete mistranslation and distortion of the original texts which in reality mean nothing of the sort.
Hoevever, now that the story is out there, it has taken on a life of its own, promoted by money grabbing new age writers and credulous readers.

I am in no way saying that this is the case IMV, so dont hit me with complaints about this opinion. I don't know either way. I just want to point out to people that there is actually a controvesy about this whole issue and people who are interested might want to check out the facts and not just rely on 'mayan prophesy websites' or whatever.

Above all, I would just like to invite all readers to remember this post in 9 years time when they wake up on the 1st January 2013 and find that they have NOT been elevated to a higher vibrationary level or whatever the theory is.

Thank you.
Goodnight.

Douglas