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Hi Jeff
Just a few thoughts. I am also married and for about 1 year did not tell her or anyone. I told a Christian Minister and he dismissed it as fantasy and told me he thought I was having a subconcious desire to be someone important and was making the whole thing up.

All though I have told my wife and she believes me and is mildly interested it is also becoming a bit of a contention in our relationship. It is as if she feels a bit sort of afraid that I will just "fly away" some day or go die in my sleep. It is a interesting observation that people who have OBEs also seem to get strenght and stamina spiritual as well as mental to endure. I say endure becourse allthough it is a wonderful experience it can at times be very intense. Others may not have the same strenght as they do not have to do the battle so to speak.

As your day so shall your strenght be

I think that if I was to re do it I would be much more gradual and careful how I relate and make sure I did not give her any worries about me. I had a keeper of the thresh hold experience early on wich was terrifying and I told her. Bad idea[].I think that was too much for her. I think it would be wise to proceed carefully and with love and wisdom. It is a hard burden to carry, when someone you love are engaged in activities you do not understand and have no power over, and it can make people very fearfull.

Honesty is of course the best policy but maybe a remark and let her ask questions and certainly making it a gradual thing , rather than, "Honey I just wanna tell you that I leave my body at night and fly around the city and ....I just thought I would let you know[].

All the best
Mustardseed

Hi Coffea

Maybe I am beating a dead horse. If you thereby indicate that you do not want to read posts from me that is. But I have a feeling you will read this one!!

I know how YOU feel, your juvenile comments show it with tremendous clarity. I know what you are really after as well Coffea, the hot debate, the exchanges of clever wits the cutting sarcastic remarks and the feeling of.....ha that will get him. But in all that you show yourself very lacking of any real depth. Just a shallow and insecure individual, who believes that by provoking, agressing and getting ..."in their face" he will make people think.[]

All most people have to say to you after a couple of exchanges of opinion is .......ok my friend....have it your way....... WHATEVER[]

Your posts bring nothing to this forum Coffea......nothing.

Enjoy your life

Mustardseed

Hi Coffea
How are you today. Just to assure you I do take my posts seriously[], however once in a while people come in to a very serious conversation with some short remark, often with some condecending remark irony etc and derails the entire process, and subject "line". (that would be you []) I then find myself answering them in the same tone, and though it is off subject and quite lame and nonproductive , it does bring some comical relief. I find the you have previously steered this and others conversation this way, as has Xander. If that is the way you are used to discussing things, you only confirm in my mind that you indeed are very young and not interested in other points of view than your own. This post might enrage you both for another tirade of sarcasm, and i will probably answer that one as well[][], thats how "mature" I am. Ha. Anyway might I suggest that you try to make your posts longer and let us all know what is really on your mind. This particular part of the forum is actually for discussion of such topics as sin , in case you would rather doscuss Astral travl. you might wanna go to Astral Chat.

Regards Mustardseed

obviously none of you are parents. I would be very carefull about calling the Child protection agency if I were you. If she has harmed the kid go ahead but if it is just your opinion and an overshadowing feel free to share with them this fact and add that your friend has seen aliens around her. If we are lucky they will take the 2 of you instead and we wont have to discuss this again. []

Joking aside. Xander what will you do? Can you do anything. Are you even sure in your diagnosis. It seems very extreme.

Ok I find that fair and logic []. Gods ways are above ours. Maybe he has reasons and ways we cannot concieve at all. About the Fundi heaven, I totally agree. I believe that God in his mercy will let their life in heaven be a continuation of their lives here.

There is a very old joke about a Christian guy who dies and goes to heaven. As Sct Peter leads him along the golden streets he sort of gives him a tour of the place.

"over there in that big mansion lives all the 7day adventists they love singing so you will have agrand time there, over in the mansion to the right we have the mormons, they are big on multiple wives and have some great parties, though no wine is allowed inside, in the house on the corner live the jehovas winnesses but they are hardly ever at home though, still knocking on doors you know" he sort of leads him through this whole part of heaven and on the way they pass a beautifull mansion with a big lawn and he suddenly get real quiet. The guy asks "who lives there" and Sct Peter leans over real close and whispers

"well you see in there live all the fundementalists, we all really love them so we are always real quiet when we pass this way be course they think they are alone up here"[]

I also agree with you about the reasons for Roberts anti Fundi stance. Must be hard to continually have to defend a lifes work and have all that negative energy come knocking. I do think he is a very experienced man and wrote some great books but, on some points IO disagree with him but ....so what! I do find him somewhat dogmatic in certain areas though.

About the Christians giving the liberty for people to find out for themselves I have to tell you that I have done that on numerous occations. Having been a Missionary for some 28 yrs many are the times I have asked people to read the Book of John and ask Jesus into your life and then ask himn to show you the truth. Maybe slightly different but nevertheless.

Regards Mustardseed

quote:Get past your dogmatic mindset where we must slavishly obey or restrict ourselves to mainstream religion. We are not discussing mainstream religion per say, but the fundamental notion that souls experience more than one physical lifetime.

.......This point illustrates I think the most fundamental difference between us Mustardseed, as you seem to be restricted to viewing spiritual matters only through the lens of the various established religions, whereas I am not

Firstly Douglas, would you mind terribly to stop insinuating that I am dogmatic restricted narrow minded etc. It is really grinding on me and I find it increasingly harder to not blast you back. We hardly know each other and you really have very little understanding of me and what I believe ....I assure you. [].

Ok Lets talk about a few issues and seperate them a bit. I agree that this is only a speculation, but disagree that I am basing my view point on Fundi "rules" and have such a mindset. My notion is simply this.

Allthough I am doubtful on the notion that we come back an infinite amount of times, I am not totally knocking the multiple life aspect of reincarnation. I have wondered if there migfht be a preexistance in variuous astral inviroments. Must assume that Earth is the starting point and that all after that must surely be better higher or more advanced. This is only a notion. This could as well me the finishing line or a middle stopover. That is ofcourse if we assume there is a linear type of order in it. It seems generally accepted that earth is the central poiunt and all lines pass through it every so often. What if it is not.??

quote:We also have to remember that this whole process is MUCH more complicated than as first imagined. For a start we are applying logical rules to a being who apparently exists outside of the physical universe and therefore the rules of logic could be said to not apply to him; unless he is bound by physical rules of logic?

I find this statement to be confusing and just the type of statement that shuts down any speculation. How do you even speculate if you also maintain that this is a possibility. Its like trying to calculate a a+B=C without knowing A , B or C. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Why are we even talking then[]. Do yoiu get my point?

quote:Explain how this 'doesn't make sense'. I would say that you might find there are more enlightened people in the world than you might think. It depends on your definition of 'enlightened'. This is not a single one off process. People do not 'become enlightened' as a one off event: they are on a long leaning curve and we all become MORE enlightened as time goes on. Some stick around to help others, some don't. Others may be here who don't make it their business to go around advertising themselves. They are here for their own reasons and keep to themselves. They are probably NOT the world leaders, or religious leaders, they may be the guy who takes out the trash or works in the mailroom and who is not concerned with 'fixing the world'. You are unaware of them. It is not their intention to 'fix the world' as such, and it may be the case that it is not meant to be 'fixed'. It is the highs and lows of life with all its joy AND suffering which makes it all worthwhile.

Again this is very confusing for me. This EXCACT POINT I brought up myself in the famous Satan decieves you thread, to Robert Bruce, and he compleately wiped the floor with me. Try to read it.

From Satan decieves you thread:

quote:

Mustardseed said:
I believe that you put way too much importance on realizing your spiritual enlightenment. Many poor illiterate people with no Phd and very little time for delving into things of this nature are very spiritually evolved in my book. Enlightenment as I see it is closeness to God or alignment with his Spirit. So even a poor farmer in some field somewhere who shows unselfish love, a soldier who without worry of his own life saves his friends, a mother that labours day after day with her wayward kids or a father that works 2 jobs to take care of his family can have as much enlightenment as any enlightened mystic IF THEY LOVE .

Robert Bruce said: Well, isn't that nice....

Your opening statement in the above is unphilosophical. You seem to be accusing me of considering myself to be above and beyond other mere mortals, as if I were some kind of cult leader type person. This is something that I take great pains 'not' to do.

Realization is absolutely essential to enlightenment. Enlightenment cannot occur without the staggered realization process. One can become close to God in many simple ways, yes, but one cannot become enlightened through this because enlightenment is a direct result of the realization process. They are indivisible.

I am certainly not unaware of these people at all. They are the reason I believe that enlightenment is strongly overrated and a life lived in love is as important if not more important. This is my own best argument against elitism, and folks who preach this way to God. Gnostics with hidden knowledge etc. If thgis is not done for LOVE it is in my opinion andf experience only a glorified ego trip no heat no warmth no real connection to God  and certainly no "higher" level of understanding. Please read 1Corinthians 13. These are a few quotes you should read the whole thing.


   1Cr 13:1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not LOVE, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.  
   
   1Cr 13:2   And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains,(in the astral?) and have not LOVE, I am nothing.  


Regards Mustardseed

The world is full of situations like this. What does your belief have to offer such a woman Xander. What can you do for her in the way of helping her and the child. Anything. Seeing grey aliens and sensing overshadowings have no practical application. A 10 yr kid could see something is wrong but what will you do. Do you have a solution.

Go ahead make my day Xander.......ask me!!

Xander, I just got a great idea......have you ever considered stand up comedy.. You would be a blast[]

I would sure pay to see you have a go at the, stupid Christians. You could get some shaving cream and do the "foaming at the mouth"
rutine, I bet it would be great.

Good luck with your highschool examen ( or was it junior high [:X])

Regards Mustardseed

quote:But if the belief system territiories are themselves a form of 'belief system territiories', this means that you accept the premise that belief system territiories exist.

Huh??

quote:
Why then would christian beliefs be exempt form this area, because it is 'more correct' than every other belief? By stating this you are only returning to the old neverending circular agument again, where each mainstream religion states that it is the one true belief.

I did not say that Fundis would be exempt. Look again. I only differentiate between Christians and fundis. !!!! I believe some fundementakists will be side by side with all sorts of other people whos faith is in traditionalism....only.

You did not answer my 2 other posts, what do you think.

I am of course biased as I believe in Jesus Gandalf and I believe that He is the way. However who knows what the future holds for each individual YOU could become a Christian in the future. I know you will say no way but you must admit it is a possibility. It is the same principle I am talking about. We are all guessing and I resent you, as well as Adrian (greetings all[]!!)who pretend to be so well informed, when infact you are just like the rest of us....guessing. No pompous diatribe and pontification about "other astral explorers have found and bla bla" really cuts it with me as well as many others, your main following will be, PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE AS YOU DO. The rest of us will just sit back and wait it out and resign us to the "notion" that we "must be meddeling in things too high for us" and we should leave all such thinking and questioning to the knowledgable people the ones who has enlightenment, the spearhead the priesthood, the CHURCH, and ......whoops we are right back where we started. Dont you see it.

quote: but it is unlikely for the good reason that the higher realms are not generated by personal beliefs and strong emotional responces, which you can 'feel' generate your enviroment in the lower levels with a bit of experience.

Sorry Doug, you speculate[]. This is entirely your assumption and not based on anything at all. Even the theory about the existance of these "levels" as you call them is highly speculative. We do not know ANYTHING hardly about where and how they are accessed. Even the most experienced have only experienced them in fleeting very brief moments, and their ideas are nothing more than speculations either and educated guesses. The entire OBE EXPERIENCE IS NOT AN EXACT SCIENCE for goodness sake, so let us not ...please let us not get dogmatic about what, where and how the astral works.  


Regards Mustardseed

Coffea Coffea Coffea Coffea

How should I know!!!! Are you perfect? ........I dont think so. I would guess ....Guess mind you, that he has his reasons and that his reasons is way above ours, I would also guess that if he is God he is wayyyyyy ahead of someone who calls themselves Coffea Gandalf and Mustardseed and derives their experiences fromn talking to a bunch of people on a Chat board that they know next to nothing about. What do you think?

In the future my condecending little friend....... be nice okay. At least give it a try, otherwise you will find people talking to them the way you talk to them.[]

Regards Mustardseed

Hi Gandalf I posted for you on another thread the one about Pastor whatever his name. So lets discuss this as well. It seems we come from very different places. I have no problem with your belief and would be glad to talk, however if you insist on pulling the conversation down to a tit for tat level with sarcasm and no humor I will be as glad to refrain. I have no problem with a good crack joke or pulling legs but destructive sarcasm and biting Irony is wasted on me.

quote:So Satan is not 'evil' then as everything Satan has done was ordained by god; god created him with the capacity to rebel.

In my opinion YES you are right Satan is no more evil trhat anyone else who rebels against God. His ability to wreck havoc is greater but in a way he is about the same as anyone else who conciously fights against love and kindness and decency.

quote:If God did this on purpose this means that what we call 'evil' comes from god and is therefore 'good'

I would not think so. This is the nature and the very heart of free will it can and does create Good and evil. Lets put it in a way that you relate to./ I assume you have been brought up in an avarage home. Love your folks but yoiu may or may not lie them. YOu could at any given time go out and buy a chainsaw and masacre them .or help them trim their trees.... One choice would,  in my universe(opinion) make you eviul the other would not.

quote:If he didnt do it on purpose then he is obviously not as intelligent as you make him out to be?

Are you serious. If you believe in God then do you think he is intelligent. Hello.......[]
I take this as a quib and an attempt to bait me or ...whatever.

quote:If he did it out of nececety, as perhaps the universe can only exist with a balance of good and evil, this implies that god is not omnipotent as he cannot create a universe (or people) without evil.

You know Douglas you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Some of your posts impress me....not this one[] Just becourse you decide to not step; on an ant does that mean you are not able to and trhe ant is stronger than  you?

quote: But if he is god an ominpotent why isnt it possible for him to create a pefectly good universe with perfect people in it?

It is but .......he apparently did not want that. He seems to want peoiple to come to him by choice. Thats all.?

quote:Because he wanted to give us free will? however, if he can do anything, he could give us free will but create such good beings that could never conceive of doing anything bad, but he hasnt, because he cannot?

Huh ......... I am not getting you[]


Have a nice day Douglas

Regards Mustardseed

Go talk to the Mother. Stand up and be counted Xander. Tell her she is influencing her child and that you would like to help her. Then if she yields give her healing Prayers or whatever , talk to her and find out where she is either hurting or has neg influence (drugs etc) look for signs of dark arts, possession or overshadowing. Talk softly and try to win her. either that or be silent and see the child suffer!!! We have all been there Xander, it is a tough choice.....to speak up or not to speak up, that is the question. My prayers go with you.

Regards Mustardseed

Greetings all (thought I would try that)[]

God is real. He may not be the old man with the beard but he is a spirit. The most powerfull spirit in the astran dimensions. He is the spirit of love. All love is inspired by him. He is light and in him is no darkness at all. He is personified in his physical "son" Jesus who is God to us, lived in love and died for love so we could be with God forever.

The counterpart is the Prince of Darknes, Lucifer, the arch angel, one of the other "sons" of God. He is real too. He has been cast into earth to rule here for a time. He is known by many names and is also the prince of the power of the air. He has under his command defiant angels and spirits who are in rebellion to God. They are divided in various principalities ruled by princes of varying importance.

Regards Mustardseed

Basically you can call yourself anything you want. It seems to be a matter of defining what a Christian is. If you would use the definition of a Christian as : a person who believes that Jesus was born lived and gave his life as a sacrefice for you.

Are you then a Christian .....no.

If your definition is a person who goes to church and keeps church rules ........maybe (I dont know you)


If your definition matches your action then it is affirmative. However the definition by the vast majority is the first and then you would have to decide what you believe[].

Regards Mustardseed

quote:At the core of the apologetics is the fundamental problem that the writer is too restrictive in his/her conceptions.

your viewpoint only. Neither of us all know how restrictive or not restrictive these rules are, right. This is a educated guessing session, isn't it or are you elevating it to a teaching session[]None of us KNOW.

quote:This stance assumes that karma 'punishes', but most theories of karma are not concerned with 'punishment'.

Are you saying most, meaning that there are many of them?. If so what is most. Is one view held by 1 billion people only counted 1 and the different versions held by each AP member counts  say 200. This makes no sense. We are talking about Reincarnation as practiced and believed by the vast multitude of Hindus and Buddhists in the world. Pick a number[]its in the Billions. If you make minisqule changes and say you have a "different approach and belief" where are your following. There are none. Even RB and Monroe and others are not in agreement but they all guess, and people here dont even believe as they do. People basically accept the theory of reincarnation as a neg vote to Christianity, they would rather live forever and be reincarnated a couple of million times...... Hey whats the Rush.....I will get there in my next reincarnation.

quote: it is about learning through experience. Your view is attempting to perceive this concept through the lens of christian thought, in which 'divine punishment' is central.

This is an assumption. You first do not know what is central to us nor what is central to the Bible. The Gospel is the GOOD NEWS that God who is love loves us and send his Son and he loves us too. This is the central tenant of the Bible.

quote:However, in many branches of reincarnation belief, concepts of punishment, sin and evil are not present.
What is important is learning. Often the only proper way to learn is by realising consequenses of actions from 'the other side', you then learn from this and will act with more wisdom in future.

Ok we get closer in defining then. This is what we call punishment we call it that becourse discipline = training to us and we accept "punishment" which in your eyes is bad as a gift of God to teach us lessons. We rejoice in it as  gift of God. Who has the wrong perspectrive is then subjective.

quote:This argument is making an assumption that 'we' are the same 'we' that was around at the begining of human history. Actually, most reincarnation beliefs are centred around the idea that people come here on a constant basis, learn and grow and then move on to other realms of existence. The purpose of learning is the overriding reason for being here, the 'moral basis' if you want to refer to it as that; Part of that learning process is to learn to love other people. Therefor, at any given time there may be a whole mixture of people at widely varying levels of development, and possible from different backgrounds. For some people here, this might be their last visit to Human life. Therefor, it is not the case that human society is going to be any more 'morally advanced' than in the past (although as an aside, I think we have made progress, thanks to the 18thC Enlightenment and secular ethics, but this is imo).

This makes no sense Douglas. Come now. If this is the case and people stop coming here as they attain enlightenment and there should be no enlightened folks here.!!!!

If there are enlightened folks present here, i.e. Robert Bruce Moen,yourself? Buddha etc it would mean that it is possible to be enlightened here. If this is possible we should be up to our waist deep in enlightened people all over. Your argument does not hold, so either explain more clearly or re-think.

quote:This assumption is based on an a prior notion that reincarnation is linear in form, and in fact this may not be the case.

This is not how you explained it above. Your above statement was that it was a process, in effect INDEED LINEAR. 2+2=4 notice the line[]

You cannot have it both ways. I also read RBs article and found it very very interesting but this is NOT anywhere near to being considered mainstream Reincarnation belief. Nowhere near.

quote:It may also not be the case that 'suffering in this life' is due to events in a previous one.

your back to linear again.......

quote:It may be the case that those people who have caused others pain in the past may return in order to see what it is like in reciept; again not nececerely 'punishment', more a learning curve.
Others may choose a hard life this time around purely for the learning oppertunities it presents, not because of any actions in the past.

and back to non linear....more like alternating current []

quote:Firstly, This view supposes that there is a finite amount of souls.

this is generally accepted reincarnation beliefs Douglas. The reason is that we are all a little part of God and since God is infinite the amounts of souls are as well. This is not supposing but simple math 2+2=4

quote:However, god is deemed to be infinite

Oh sorry got confused by your statement above[]

quote:and many notions of reinarnation view all life as 'sparks' of god who continually split off and begin a long cycle of learning and growth before they eventially rejoin with the the whole again. The purpose of this is so that god can grow, and we all get to 'become' god in the end.

If this is the truth we are truly opposed. In my view we never become God, we might get close to Him and so forth But we never become God. This sounds humanistic and is a bit democratic.....hey my turn to be God. Some take this even further than you and say "they are allready God....." and the universe in theirs only....this is the stuf various socially demented folks eat up. You are God you decide you rule. It is ego at its finest.

quote:This process has no end that we can perceive and there are new souls appearing all the time. Remember also that reincarnation does not restrict itself to this world but may also apply to all the other worlds of the universe and possible realities that exist outside of it. Earth may well be just one speck of dust in the big picture.

Sounds very theoretical and very......like the stuf I used to hear round the campfires in my hippie days......wow man I just thought of something heavy...wow....it was like ..well it ...I ...wel it was real heavy...but I forgot cause it was soooo intricate.[]

quote:Secondly, the concept of 'evil' is not a universal one; It may be the case that 'evil' is relative and has no meaning outside of human constructs. Therefore there is no longer any 'problem of evil' to solve. It may be that due to our vastly limited view of the greater reality, we are in no position to know the ultimate purpose and outcome behind events and actions; all categories of 'good/evil, good/bad etc, are relative. As Monroe says 'in Zero gravity there is no up and down'.

I sure hope you are right man, I sincerly do. That would be very nice...however I think not!!!!. I have seen evil in people in govt. and in society at large. I learned about evil before I learned about good Douglas. Even accepted OBE theories count on Demons and very evil creatures.

Very interesting conversation. Thanks for replying. Dont get offended about the little jokes, sometimes these threads get so serious[]

Regards

Mustardseed

Dear Douglas
Thanks for the reply. You express yourself so much better in English than I and I find it quite the linguistic challenge to attempt to take up the discussion in a like manner . Just to let you know my post are quite laborious process [8D]

Anyway. I am first quite pleased that we can have the conversation in a decent manner, I am sure everyone involved in the thread would agree, this is much more productive and very much appreciated. Thanks.

I have been thinking about your post a lot. Even way back in the 70s I knew about this theory and as  hippie it was quite frequent to meet people who had this world view. As I went through my life however and as I gained my "life experiences" I found that words in themself and theories with no attachment to real life started to matter less to me. Action, in how people lived their lives started to mean more. I felt compelled to look at the people who had these beliefs and determine if I wanted to go to the emotional physical state where these or other worldviews led me. I am assuming here that what we believe make us what we are.

The New Agers (Neags []) in my opinion were just as bad off as the Christian Churches. (Fundis[8D]). I felt determined to embrace the belief I saw resonating in me as the TRUTH. I looked in various "Panteistic" places but in the Bible and Christianity (not Churchanity mind you) I found my home. Its words of Love, attitude of compassion and mention of a God not concerned with works buildings, spiritual discipline and righteousness in a physical way but only LOVE appealed to me.

As I put its words into effect it came alive to me. Visions dreams, prophecy as well as much other good "fruit". There have been downsides and bad samples but even these has been good for me as samples of how NOT to act. (my basket is full of good fruit[])

This is the reason of the faith that is within me. As I said before I do not have a need nor do I feel it is in my place to do penance for past mistakes of other Christians, apologise for the inquisition or go to jail cause some TV preacher gets greedy[]

My worldview has changed since that time. 76. It has expanded and continues to do so. You talk about some adding to theirs, and I get the feeling you believe this to be sort of a smokescreen and something people do becourse they have no guts to throw it all away. Maybe it is I will have to think about that for a while. My first inclination tells me it is not[].

My basic notion and belief is that there is intelligent consious activity behind the universe spiritual/ physical. Its is not an system running on its own. In that view I have asked myself

1.I have been wondering if the Christian beliefsystem territories, that people talk about so much could be a planned purposeful step, to help people who will have to make a transition and facilitate. Not to keeping them trapped as if it is a selfimposed hell as some hautily throw at you, but the second step of a ladder that we should all or some should progress by. I ask this becourse it seems evident thet there are right and wrong ways to do things in the physical and astral. Fx. RB and others talk about inducing OBEs with drugs as a bad idea, as the spirit is not ready and developed enough sort of driving without a licence or experience. Are some people running ahead of God?, and the plan?

2. Could it be a possibility that the entire Astral world that you and others consider the "real" astral/spiritual reality, is just a "beliefsystem territory" sort of a giant sandbox, where those who are a bit ahead of God are allowed to experiment and play castles soldiers and so forth, till they come to a developement or a maturity where they understand Gods ways. Before you refute this bear in mind that there was a time when the entire world , as gigantic as it was in your mind, consisted of probably no more than 2-3 blocks or maybe a small town.

3.I have learned in my life Douglas to not take things by appearance. To look deeper. This goes for people, feelings, experiences as well as of course what I am taught by books. I have had a very interesting conversation with Beth and look forward to her Book, her opinion!. I know that the Bible translations have "flaws" if you can call it that. Aeon is one of them. There are others!!!But I also believe there is more to the Bible than meets the eye, there is in my mind no doubt that deeper levels of understanding in every aspect of life exist, but just becourse we know this , do we have to go there?

There is much knowledge that is bad for us. Maybe much Astral experience that we were not meant to know, and many levels we are not yet ready to explore. Maybe. Just becourse we can .....should we? I find it facinating though and am exploring in my own little way. I have found that I am capable of inducing the vibrations almost at will, leading me to believe or assume I could project at will also. Give take a bit[]

I proceed cautiously, not becourse of fear of demons or fear of my mind , but becourse I want to move WITH God. Not ahead of him not behind. I can only try to listen to that still small voice, intuition and gut feeling and then pray for his guidance in this.

Regards Mustardseed


Ps I forgot, the fact that Jeff and others were Christians and Born again as you put it, in years past seems very unconclusive, and not a very useful point in our discussion. You are surely aware that thousands of Christians came to believe in Jesus after a long life of involvement in all sorts of New Age doctrines, including most definately OBEs.

Dear Exothen
I would like to ask you if you yourself practice any of the gifts of the spirit. More specifically, healing, tounges, dreams, visions, and prophecy. Do you know of any church where these gifts are encouraged? If yes where if no why?

I agree with you on most of your statements , however I find it sort of interesting that you seem to have a label for everything and a answer to every question "be always ready to answer any one who ask of the reason of the faith that is within thee" seems to be more relating to testemony of salvation. Are there any questions that your Church or reading the Bible does not answer. I mean along the lines of how it all works and how it all fits together.

You do come off as very self confident, you have the power of the written word but tell me what are your questions, do you have any?

Why are the Churches so spiritually dead and the Christians so divided why is there so little real love there and so much hypocracy, and spiritual pride.

Regards Mustardseed

I find you to be evasive. Please answer the following observations in point form. This would only be fair to ask. Exothen is challenging your beliefs and asking questions, if you do not want to concede to him being right you should answer. No emotional outbursts , no commenting on him or his lack of willingness. Just the facts. I am very interested in hearing your replies.

To make it easier I have copied part of the post (hope you dont mind Exothen)

1. Moral argument: in pantheism "there is no source for the moral standards that karma enforces." Since there is no ultimate difference between good and evil, all morality becomes relative. But if nothing is right or wrong, then "karma has no business punishing anyone for it."

2. Social argument: if we have had hundreds, or more, chances to improve over millions of years, we should have made moral progress, but there is no evidence of that. As an aside, morality has to be absolute in order to even draw a comparison, otherwise, to what standard is one comparing?

3. Problem of Evil and Infinite Regress: "if suffering in this life always results from evil done in a previous life, then there would have to be an infinite regress of past lives. But an infinite regress in time is not possible, since if there were an infinite number of moments before today, then today would never have come." Since today has come, there has not been an infinite number of past lives. And, of course, science tells us that time isn't eternal.

"On the other hand, if there were not an infinite number of lives before this one, then there must have been a first life in which a previous incarnation was not the cause of its evil."

4. Problem of Infinite Time and Lack of Perfection: "In an infinite amount of moments there is more than enough time to achieve the perfection of all souls which reincarnation is designed to do. In short, all souls hould have achieved oneness with God by now, if there had been an infinite amount of time to do so. But they have not. Hence, reincarnation has failed as a solution to the problem of evil."


What say ye!!

Gandalf I would like to hear you refute or explain Exotens quotes about Karma and Reincarnation. These same points have been brought up before but seems always to be ignored. Karma and reincarnation really is questionable, yet it seems to be the cornerstone in most Neag's beliefsystems (I thought we could coin another word for NewAgers seeing we have become Fundis)[]. Even Robert Bruce brings this up in a very interesting article.

I am listening!!Any other Neags who wanna give that one a shot??

Regards Mustardseed

Hi Douglas
I agree with much of what you say. I really do. However I find that you are in error of your view of Christianity. You continually have this sort of ticked off attitude and seem to be looking for a cause, and a fight.

You seem to believe you know better and you are so adamant in your opposition and dislike for "fundis" as you call them. You fail to see that many many Christians have very "mystic"experienceses and have built their faith in God on very similar concepts as the catch basket . We have seen felt and heard and believe becourse we have seen felt and heard. But in your opinion what we have seen felt and heard is not good enough. You allow yourself to build your beliefs on your senses, but do no give us the same freedom, then you use the theory of "belief system terretories" to negate our world view, and elevate your own to doctrine. This is a double standard.

You do not discuss, but argue. I have said before that I would like to discuss things with you or anyone else, who asks questions and has a desire to share beliefs and experiences, but if you come here to prove me wrong and show me how utterly foolish my faith in God is, then you are nolonger seeking, but have found and have become a fundi in your own right but with a different set of fundementals, just another hat[]

Regards Mustardseed






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Hi Guys
Well I am not thatb well read, however being a believer in the literal interpretation of the Bible I believe that they married their sisters!!! Makes sense to me.

We could disagree on lots but agree on as much , what will we occupy our mind with.

Regards Mustardseed

Hi Douglas
I have been reading the thread and wondered if it is a bit off topic to start another "christianity pisses me off and is bovine excrement" flaming session.? The one starting it asking: What do religions or you say about Homosexuality. This is the beef of the matter. I realise you are not in agreement with very much the Bible says, and I do not blame you much seeing how Christians in the fundementalist category have used it to elevate themselves and put others down in a very selfrighteous manner. However they are not the only voice of Christianity.

IMO it seems pretty clear that Homosexuality in the old testament was a pretty bad thing, a rebellion against Gods way and obviously if one chooses to believe a literal interpretation, it is enevitable that this would influence such a believers opinion, when they would try to figure out Gods position!!!

The New testament is harder to figure out. While on one hand there are the obvious mentions of Gods wrath in Romans 2, this seems to be a reiteration of the old testament in Pauls words. That taken into consideration and Pauls general attitude of almost "anti sex" or death to the flesh, one wonders. ?? I heard once some gays quoting John saying that he was gay "laying on Jesus breast" but I doubt that. It is obvious though if one reads the whole New Testament and considers the scriptures over all that the "sin" of Homosexuality if there is such a thing, is no worse than adultery, and substance abuse and seemingly way less important to God than the sins of the spirit. i.e. Pride selfrighteousness and judgementalism, and a lack of faith on God and even rebellion.

Whether God considers it "good or bad" is actually in a way quite unimportant. We have free will and the ones choosing this lifestyle will do so wheather they believe they are in "gods will" or not. There might also be some personal considerations in the equation and likes and dislikes, but the attitude of looking down on the Homosexual as an inferiour person, sinful or whatever is entirely unsupportable seen in the light of scriptures. We should not judge our brothers!!!There is no if and buts about that.

I have had many good friends who were gays, my wifes brother was gay and died of aids a few years back. He was a very dear friend but though he was not a Christian he was in his own words quite troubled by the lifestyle he and his friends were living and felt they sort of "did it to themselves" ? We never touched on what the Bible says, he knew it well, and I did not see the need.

The question in the thread is interesting though. I personally would like to ask what people think of the average single gay lifestyle as opposed to the hetero, in terms of spiritual values. Is there a difference and if so what is it.

Regareds Mustardseed

Generally I would suggest that you read a lot more on the subject before attempting an OBE. It would also be advisable to learn some relaxing tecnik or use the NEW system. All these can be found on the site.

These are the general accepted points on the site. I myself use a different method as I am a Christian but do not want to force my views on you, as some here feel they are in opposition to generally accepted views. ? They work for me.

In my universe, you would try to clean up your life first. That would mean that if you have a substance abuse problem, drugs alcohol or a spiritual problem, work that out first. Get on a plan, and start making progress. If you are over weight start jogging diet or whatever. Get in touch with nature, take time to be alone and pray or meditate if you do either. Get the "ship" in order, becourse if you presist you are going on a long journey, and you might be "gone" a while[]. If you are a Christian read the Bible, stay away from history and doctrines but read the basics found in the Gospel of John. Revelation should give you a vision as well.

If you do these things things will change. Your sub conciousness will adapt to the changes and a triggering effect might take place. When you have dreams start recording them and think about them. Make friends with people you have clashes with, stay positive and full of faith. If you need any help from me later feel free to PM or write in public domaine.

Regards Mustardseed

Come on Xander, no need to get angry ok. I never claimed to be nobody special. I said in my post, lets discuss it and proceeded to put forward my opinion and what I have gathered and what I am contemplating. I you do not agree thats fine, but explain to me what you do think about the subjects.

These observations are just my opinion and I think they are valid points.

We do not have to agree, right? nor are we in this (AP) to establish a commen belief system or absolve one such. While you are at it , drop the remerks about my spelling please, thats just silly. Do you advocate that only people who spell correctly or spend 4 times as long as you composing a post using spellchecks and copying messages, can debate? And all that talk about knocking me out of ...whatever it was.....Hello, are we having a bad hairday[]. Lets be friends for goodness sake and have a sense of humour ok.

Regards Mustardseed

Ok lets discuss this the. What is the workings of God and what is not. What has the Church to do with it anyway. The Church did not exist in the form it has now when this was written. The old testament condemns listening to and seeking advise of spirits other than Gods spirit yet in Revelation when John falls down to worship the angel he said to him "worship not me for I am of your breatheren the prophets", It seems that when people cross over they are used in some way to aid the ones here. At least this seems supportable by the scripture. Certain beliefs like astrology is clearly in the Bible. The lights in the "firmament" was for times and seasons. "The stars in their courses fought against sesirea" .

It seems obvious that the physical and spiritual creation was created after a certain template, and with certain building blocks. Lets just say a art as dousing. (Finding water with a stick) Some very fearful folks believe it is the work of demons, like they did back in the middle ages. It could just be a simple natural force magnetism or physical law not yet found by science!!! Christians are often too quick to lob everything they do not understand into the pot of "demons at work". I believe that in this they are very wrong.
It seems evident Moses dowsed himself. I had a very good friend a farmer, in the south parts of Devon. He was a very sweet and kind man and used to go help his neighbours find springs and stuf. He never knew he was dowsing, he was finding water, he loved God and was a very sweet spirit. Was he communicating with demons. I think not. Most folks who claim demons are at work heve never had experience with spiritual entities , if they had they would think different. These spirits leave their signature believe me.

Other practices are in my opinion, much worse. There are some here who are developing severe problems and have horrible experiences. Why? Is it becourse they still are under influence of us in the "belief terretories" or are they meddeling in matters way out of their sphere. I believe it is.

You can call me what you want Gandalf and Xander and False prophet and all you others, lets compare notes again in 6 months time. Some of you are inviting trouble by not being carefull enough and realising what you are involved in.

All that said and done I have to explain that I have frequent OBE experiences and had them since I was 4 yrs old. I have hovever found it best to avoid the RTZ, and go straight to the Astral planes as much as possible. Often I do not go with the vibrations. I go in my time and as I feel led by God and my faith.

I hope I make myself clear and apologise for spelling mistakes. I am not a good speller in English but a busy man and have no time to spend hours typing things like this and minding grammar too much.

Regards Mustardseed