Messages

Ha. Good point Ex. This is how it works in this Forum. We in "the belief system territories", have been declared kind of "lawless". Secondary citicens and generally we are condesendingly being tolerated in our ignorance. On the other hand every 15yr old kid satanist, pocket philosofer, gamer or Ki specialist demon slayer or whatever, is wayyy ahead of us in spiritual development. [] You better get used to people like Gandalf. Dont worry about him his name and continous comments indicates that it is yet another Lord of The Rings Buff, who believes himself to be a mighty Wizzard. Another Harry Potter wannabe!!!Dont get all offended Douglas, but your comments above as many you have made before are sort of ...... silly. They only show us your belief, thats all. Besides sort of talking down to folks who accept Christianity of course.

So Ex dont worry 'bout them, they are kind of cute once you get to know them and get used to their selfrighteous lingo[]

Regards Mustardseed

Mixed you up with Xander. I shall be glad to include ref. however the conversation started between us when you made the above statement. As you were the one making that first initial statement you should also back it up. As a Christian you cannot say "the Bible says...." and then when someone says  "where does it say that", require ME to include ref.

I personally believe that you would have to differentiate or at least define Nwe Age before you condemn it. NA has become a very big movement and include various beliefs and practices. So define which you call new age and be so kind to quote me what the Bible says about these practices. This is your responsibility. I am not making statements saying NA is Christian and blessed practices. If I had made such claims you could have asket for MY ref. to back it up.[]

I hope I am making myself clear.

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Exothen
I have posted for a long time here on the board and is known to most as a Christian. I know my Bible. If you only want to poke fun at my spelling mistakes but do not want to answer my posts in a respectful manner, most folks will just blow you off as yet another selfrighteous holier than thou church person. If that is your intent and if you feel they (and you) would get closer to God that way....ok. If however you want to reasonably discuss the issues at hand, please stop your sarcasm and ....talk to me. You keep quoting the Bible saying.......the Bible says....Please give me the references you refer to or stop saying the Bible says!!!. In many things I might agree with you , but I would need to know your scriptual backup.

Thankyou
Regards Mustardseed

Dear Exothen
First let me apologise for the spelling mistake. I am not a native english speller, as I have explained many times before and most do not hold me ad ridgid as others to this standard.

I compleately understand your concern. We have had a very long conversation about this at the famous Satan decieves you thread. There seems to be however a very blurred line between what is condemned and what is not what is new age and what is in effect just ancient arts of fx healing. Let me explain.

First of all I would agree that in the old testament it is clear that God did forbid the Jews of old to see mediums and witchcraft was forbidden. (i.e. the witch of Endor) this however was a specific message in the old testament and if we should really put things "on end" the old testament is null and void. I assume that you are familiar with those verses!!! There are now for a Christian only 2 commandments "Love God and your neighbour for on these two hang the law and the prophets". All things are now lawful......but not all things profit!!. Personally I remain sceptic about witcraft etc but find it interesting that the Prophet compares witchcraft with stubbornness and other rebellious acts.

"to obey is better than sacrefice and to listen than the fat of rams, for rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as idolatry and iniquity"

It seems to me that in those days there was a possibility that Gods message could be confused with the Devils, and God had to have very strict guidelines. He also at that time recommended that a child or teenager who was disrespectfull against his /her parents or a woman taken in adultery was taken without the gates and stoned to death! Something I do not expect you to adhere to!!

This may be an indication that they at that time had no real dicernment. Jesus was not yet crucified and the HOLY SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN. !!!

In our days this is different. We do have both and the ability to discer.

In my opinion what one does with ones "spiritual manefestation' may be a determining factor. I do myself have OBEs and had them since I was 4 yrs old. I does not seem evil to me , thoughit is at times scary. There are a mass of gifts that I would say seems ok though not to my liking. Zone therapy, acupunkture, aromatherapi, iris reasing, and even astrology. I am not advocating living by an astrologer but we as christians must admit that it seems evident that different people have been born under different signs thus been given different traits.

On the negative we have fx channeling. I have said often that channeling is a very dangerous practice along with penduling etc.

I think we must discern and that a lot of misunderstandings arise from the dogmatic viewpoint that it is all bad if it is not in church. The churches themselves are guilty of many sins spiritual problems are rampant and they are not in a position to remove any splinters from their brothers eye. Let us discuss these things in a reasonable matter and it could be an interesting conversation.

This is why I said "who determines what new age is"

Regards Mustardseed

My friend was taken off life support yesterday and passed over peacefully, within a few hours. She was a very very sweet girl who had within the last 2 years rededicated her life to serving God. In a moment of weekness she had a few beers and was offered some pot which she smoked. She only had a few puffs but they caused a lowering of her blood pressure, she had 2 clots symmetrically on either side of the brain and only came to again for a brief 4 min period the next day. Her Grandmother died the same day , 1 hour before on the other side of the country, of old age.

I believe they are safe with Jesus.

Thanks for praying

Regards Mustardseed

Referance Please

Yes I would say that is probable how it is, but to me this obsrevation is also nonconclusive. The same as when you said "you are more Gnostic than you know". I realise this is how it works and how folks jump to conclusions. People do yhis in all aspects of life. It is a rare individual who really takes time to try to understand a opinion, he/she precieves to me opposite or conflicting with his own.

People like that never bothered me that much. I felt as a  example Allannon was very much like that. "dont confuse me with the facts my mind is allready made up". Right!!

As a Christian who is active in different spheres of society I encounter people like that all the time. First they see what I do, then they are all over me in praise for the wonderfull work, buttering me up and "people worshipping" me, and then when they find out I believe in God and Jesus and pray and so on, they are soooo sorry. Now they just thought they found a nice reasonable socialworker and , tsk tsk he shous up to be a fanatic.

However I also find this with New Age folks like yourself. First all agreement and the power of God, yeahh, astral travel, jubii, healing dabbabdabba duh, Christian..............huh what ?? oh damn.

A lot of times people just have their minds made up and WILL NOT take a look at or consider an alternative explanation.

I myself do not think I embrace gnostisism, just becourse I have a active Christian prayer life with certain added experiences. Neither do I want to be told "na na na na na David is a Gnostic" [] if it means that I have to be less a Christian to be one. The Christian faith had many Mystics, Pios, Hildegaard etc, not to speak of the innumerable amount of people who never told their story. They did not identify themselves as Gnostics. They realised that the things of the spirit they were experiencing was probably "meat" for the average person.

Maybe you are still not aware that I along with a multitude of others are very critical of Christianity at large , Churchanity as I call it, but have no beef with Jesus. It is similar to being french and traveling in USA. I bet that often you will encounter problems even you make it known at every turn that you are not in agreement with your countrys foreign policy. This could also be American traveling in Europe actually.

My wife arrived home today, one day late. She was expected to come yesterday but managed to get on the wrong flight and by the time she got out of that one she missed the right one[]. We fit pretty good. Both nutty and quite the airhead.

Regards Mustardseed

Thanks for the answer . Have a good rest.

quote:[
Quite honestly the Bible does not support anything involved with the New Age, but condemns it, quite strongly. .....

and who determines what?....... new age is.....?

quote:
I do not believe for one minute that the church has corrupted the scriptures over the centuries, and in fact, the evidence goes very much against that. I do not fault you for holding to that view, it is somewhat common; it's just that it is erroneous and without basis.

As you, I believe it is erroneous but it is not without basis.
I think that would be very biased and is exactly the kind of statement that gets people up in arms.

Regards Mustardseed

You will be surprised my friend..........at the short attention span of most folks here, myself included. After 22 line I (we?) said ....OK whatever[]
Regards Mustardseed

Dear Beth

I came across this article yesterday during my research. I found it really spoke to me and thet the author must surely have been listening in on the astral pulse. I would appreciate your opinion.

http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/14.8docs/14-8pg22.html

Regards Mustardseed

[IT]

quote:Well, you have definately had many experiences in the phyiscal world that I have not.  You have traveled the world and you have seen other religions in practice.  I have not.  So I do not have the kind of comparative models to place beside Christianity in order to determine whether it is a better or worse religion than the others of the world.  I guess I can see where you would choose Christianity over these other options.

Glad you do. I tell you it is a very real consideration.

quote:
I do not see where religion, as an institutional organization, or as a collective understanding has really helped this world to evolve spiritually or morally--except in realizing that the ultimate power is beyond humanity.  This is a good thing--but this also has a double-edged sword.  Whenever a religion claims that "they" have the "truth" of this higher power, and that only through believing as they do can one access that power, it only serves to create an "elitist" (yes, I can easily use that word) attitude toward other people and their faiths or beliefs.

Agreed. I also do not adhere to an institutionalised religion. As far as a collective understanding that just seems to come all by itself, in every religion. As far the elitist think, I also believe this is a human trait. I would say that the administrators maybe Adrian and yourself and RB also do adhere to an elitist understanding of the world in the way elitist is commonly understood. I would say that Gnostisism itself is extremely elitist maybe more than most , so as one finger is pointing at someones fault 3 are pointing back at you[].

quote:In the post before this last one, you said

"The circumstantial eveidence becomes important. Personal experiences becomes secondary!!"

The circumstantial evidence ONLY becomes important when one is trying to "prove" or "disprove" one over the other.

Exactly

quote:To be forced to do this at all, is prohibiting us all from realizing the "truth of God."  God cannot be enclosed in any one religion.  We must rise above our need for religion and give the "truth" and the "power of the truth" over to that which possesses it.  That is God.

I do not understand this statement. Is that not exactly what you are doing. Trying to disprove Christianity and the Bible on the grounds that it is not a literal account of a historical series of events?

quote:I have found that books, words, and the thoughts of others can be very empowering for a time--if they responate with you, and if you are in need of another's testimony. But these words and these books are not the words or the books of God.  They are the books and words of people's experience of God.

All except one[]IMO

quote:
You obviously find where the Bible speaks to you on a level that has made your life better, and has helped you to learn that helping others is one of your gifts--gifts of Love that are of the highest and best that we can and should all give.  I admire that--and I have also tried to live my life in that same vein.  I too have gleaned a lot from the wisdom found in the Bible.  But that does not mean that the "truth of God" can only be found in the Bible--or in Christianity.

Not really. I have come to understand that as Paul said "in me..there there dwelleth no good, for to will is present but how to preform I find not". I have come to believe that all that is good about me is....God. It is his power inspiration and certainly His Spirit. He gats the credit all the time Beth. Think about it my friend!! You have had a few brief encounters with "me", "I" am not that soft and fuzzy to be around[]. I explained this concept to RB as well but he felt it was flawed in its logic. In the Christian tradition or belief, we are not good, it is only "Christ in us the hope of Glory" (doctrine of Co habitation)

quote:Your goodness Mustardseed, is much more a testament of YOU than it is of your religion.  YOU are a GOOD person, and probably would be a GOOD person even if you never found the Christian message.

It is my belief based on the direction I was heading at the time, and my experience with othere of like mind, that I would not be alive. If I would have made it to my 49th year I would be "high as a kite" or worse yet in jail, mental institution, or worse.

quote:
As you report--you have certainly spent your life doing good deeds, or at least knew that there was something better, even before you found your religion of choice.

I was not just thumbing through a catalouge of religions Beth. I was looking for a way out. For the truth and was not gonna settle for nothing less.

quote:All my life Christianity has been an option for me--I do not come from a third world country or a European world where things are in worse shape than right here in America.  But what I have seen, is how the Christianity that is present here in America is seriously flawed.  I have seen people use this religion to do great harm to others--to separate families, and to pass judgments on people who otherwise do not deserve it.  I took from the religion the few parts that resonated with me, and I left the rest behind.  I then went on a search for something better.

Good for you. I would include Church and that type of organised Christianity / fundementalists with all the other false ways so we agree there. "with their tounge they draw near no me but in their heart they are far removed from me" (I quote from memmory when I put no ref.)

quote:I have yet to actually find where "any religion" meets my needs.  Personally, I do not think that I ever will.

que sera sera

quote:I know you can't understand this because you are a man.  But virtually everywhere on this planet--God is referred to as "HE."  Quite a few years ago I was really drawn to worship the Goddess as a "SHE"--this resonated with me much more than "HE"--but I soon found that this was just the dangerous opposite swing of the pendulum.  To me, God is much bigger than man or woman--so when we think of God as being one or the other--we fall into a dangerous trap of arrogance and ignorance.

Interesting . Rather than saying God is neither he or she it is also possible and indeed plausible he/she is both. Some time back I came upon a theory that the Holy Spirit is female. Interesting idea.  

quote:I could not agree more with you when you say that "personal experience" should come first.  I have told you several of my experiences, and some of them have included Jesus, but others have not.  BUT--even the experiences I have had of Jesus--the Christians that I know would disregard them as "just my imagination" or as "just my own wishful thinking" that Jesus is somehow present and appearing in my life.  Christianity does not usually accept things like that, because that means that "I do not need Church" to help me get there, and it means that I have had an experience of Jesus that they have not.  Christians do not like this sort of thing. They prefer to believe that they will all "see" Jesus at the same time, when he returns.  This keeps is all on a level playing ground so to speak, and no one is able to experience Jesus outside of what the church deems acceptable.  The Christianity where I come from does not accept a one-on-one communication with God or Jesus.  All communication must be mediated through the Church.

We agree on so many points. This is one of them. I am glad you say the christianity where I come from (sounds like Texas!!)

quote:I also know that many of your experiences would not be accepted by the Christians where I come from.  They would think you were just as nuts as I am! []

Absolutely, been there felt that!!

quote:God does not necessarily = Christianity.  I have not given up "God"--I have just given up on Christianity's interpretation of God.  God has never left me, and as a matter of my own experience, I believe that God has stayed with me and given me the courage to live "without Christianity."  God is the constant in my life--not religion.

I think you have almost got a block against Christianity becourse you cannot comprehend it as being lived outside the churches. Selah!
But it is. The Churchanity you see and the Teleevangelists, Church Of God hypocracy is virtually unknown outside USA.

quote:Thanks for listening to me this time!  I guess I have been rambling, but bottom line--you seem to think that God is in Christianity, and that if you give up Christianity, you are somehow giving up God.  I just don't think that this is the case.  To be quite frank, I did not really "find God" until I renounced Christianity and "looked within myself."

You are very welcome. Always interesting to listen to you.  

quote:p.s. Just one more to go?--not true my friend.  You have a great many more opportunities, and just like the other night, it will come again "like a thief in the night."  It will come again when you are ready to receive it.  You have had a "glimpse" now--you have seen it, and you "know" it is there.  So, whatever you have been thinking about and doing in the last several days, perhaps that is the right path for you at this time.  Whatever it is, it is stirring the spirit deep within you.  Keep walking down that path, and IT will come again.  The Light is Within You.

I was actually referring to 1 night before my wife comes home[].....about the light being within me. .....I believe that I have Jesus so yes it is. However it was not always in me. I opened my life and it came, I was in darkness before I came to know Jesus.

Regards Mustardseed

PS You ended up with the statement "the light is within you" . I know you mean well but statements like that are probably what you want to avoid in your writings, that is if you want to get your message across to Christians. It is a little sort of condesending. I know you by now, and honestly am not offended but many will be. This is "tinkering" with a very central point in most folks beliefs. Sort of if I said to you. "Just keep searching Beth if you do you will understand and come to know Jesus as I do". I would find such a statement, selfrighteous and not fair on you, as well as unwise [].

Yes my friend they are indeed real experiences and many of us have been having them for years. It is entirely possible that you have too but that you might have "forgot" or blocked them out.

They vary, but let me tell you in confidence , they are real as real as the computer you sit by and the table it is on....reach out and touch it.........come on.

Then think of your life in context to that.

Regards and blessings as you start out on your path

Mustardseed

Dear Beth

That is a good one. I wondered about that too. All depending on what the truth IS (IS!!!!as in absolutely is![]) the roles could be reversed. It is true that I have had no relationship with these folks either(Romans), and this is my point exactly. Since there is no personal relationship either way and since it seems obvious that there were a controversy even back then, it obvious to me that we will have to believe, what we believe, BY FAITH.

I have by now (as Imagine have others)developed , on the basis of my own desire for serving God, an understanding of what releases Gods power!. I have in a "metaphorical" room found certain switches so to speak and I know atleast in part what turns on the inflowing of His Spirit, his knowlwdge his power and so on.

To me the answer (electricity )is LOVE. Even in the spiritual context love is a great aid. Its opposite, hate seems to only lead the wrong way, but Love seems to generate various great experiences and propels us into the presence of great men and women. When Love is applied things that were before complicated and things that were in a knot seems to loosen up.[] There may be different ways to minister this love (i.e. tough love) but the motive will always be the same.

Personal experience is in my opinion now moved from second most important to most important. We as individuals must now make sure for ourselves either way. Make up our own mind so to speak. Christianity then becomes in the very word a "faith", along with other faiths.

In this scenario, and if we adopt the stance that since we cannot prove a negative. ("Prove that something cannot be proven!!"), circumstansial evidence is moved up the ladder along with experiences. It becomes important to look elsewhere for indications as to what the Truth really is. Much like RBs Catch Basket Concept. I would compare my own life with Fx the lives I see living other faiths. This could be Hindues Muslims Pagans Atheists, Church people etc etc. As I heard it said once "I might not know where it IS at but I sure know where it is NOT at".


This following observation could be and is in my opinion an example of circumstantial evidense.

Where I come from the Pagan beliefs revolved around a pantheon of different Gods, Thoh and Odin being the big guys. They left this pagan belief system at the reformation and adopted a Christian value system instead. In India the system is the same or similar as it was in Scandinavia during the 300-600 a.d.,  Krishna Brama Vishnu etc are revered. (Most religious systems believe that God is either an angry God that will have to be appeased or at the least is indifferent as fx. Buddhism.) This has produced a system as we see it there. I would say it is safe to say that if these countries have had these religions as their building blocks for centuries they must blame/credit these religions for where they are at, having lived there I would say they are not doing that good. Dont read the story books on this one, but take my word for it, these countries are in a mess. This seems to be the truth as well for much of the Muslim world.

It becomes important to look around, at what peoples beliefs have caused them to do and how it makes them relate to others. Even on this board I find it is relativly easy for me to figure out whos postings can be helpful to me. There are a variety of people having adopted various names and having various attitudes and some I do not have much regard for. They seem indifferent to the pain and longing of others and generally are a ruthless lot. I would put Allannon in this bunch as well. I do not believe in "his God" either. A very few people emerge then in this situation, the things they say resonate with me and the experiences they have and had agrees with my own. This is also the same in society at large and in all relationships we as people have.

I am not a great believer in Books. Books are written by men Beth. In my opinion they are often nothing but words. History is written by the concourer as you so well explains and the more eloquent and more well connected person often gets the sopebox. Words, There was a time I believed in Words. No longer. Actions speak louder than words. Tell me how you live your life and I will tell you what you believe as someone said.

The spiritual experiences I/we have also becomes more important. In everything we do and in everything that happens to us there seem to be potential "red thread" God seems to delight in giving mankind hints, and seeing us use our free will to follow these "red threads". These experiences I am having may be one such "thread" but I believe that one should be very very careful how to interpret such experiences. As you know, my own recent concious OBE could be interpreted several ways, all depending on my point of view and desire.

All this to say that Christianity has served, and serves me well. God answers my prayers and when he does not I am always glad he didn't later on[]. He does seem to lead me in a plain path. From a distance it could look as if I as well as many other Christians are running out or asphalt and are coming to a dead end but it could also just be a ....bend in the road. I believe it is.

Thanks for listening to my many .... words[]

Regards Mustardseed

PS 1 left ,[] so far no go

Hi Beth
I read Origen. Not too clear. I guess what I summise is the even back then this controversy raged. Wonder what the official Jewish version is? My problem is two sided.

It is evident that the validity of the Bible, the literalist way so to speak was questioned. One would assume this to be a natural reaction. Jos. Fla. wrote and explained about this and seemed to use the same arguments as i did in a way. Though it would be fair to note that I have avoided to use the scriptures as proof of the scriptures!! Agreed?

Ok since this seems to have for a while been a hotly debated issue and there is no proof either way but absense of proof only. The ciorcumstantial eveidense becomes important. Personal experiences becomes secondary!! My OBE though very real and somewhat unusual is still not proof to me. Neither is Origin. I certainly understand his point and yours, but I did not know him!! Have no proof he is anything but a doubter and a neg inspired blind leader of the blind!!
Try to understand Beth that it is too vague for me.

I am still reading Jos.Fla. and will research Origin as well.

Regards

Mustardseed

Thankyou E.W
My problem however is still that I seem capable of inducing OBEs at will but do not want to. Very interesting site I will have to read it close up.
RG
MS

Hi Beth Thanks for all the research. Fl. Jos. is facinating. I hope I am not making more work for you, that was not the intent. Very interesting with the name, I think I will stick with Beloved scorpio, I guess that may be why mustard is called mustard it stings. I am working on that though and hope to be perfect and the nonstinging kind in about oh lets see....a couple of trillion years[]. It is amazing how our sunsign influences us. How about you, is there a Taurus there by the screen.?

My days of solitude is drawing to an end here. All is back in the daily spaces. I did however have what appesrs to be my first OBE in the RTZ last night something I have tried to avoid and I made what according to Jeff M. seems to have been my first concious exit. Due to its rather troublesome nature I will send it in PM to you for your thoughts.

Regards Mustardseed

Beth
I am starting a major project reading Flavious Jos. what do you think about this following qoute. I find it interesting as concerns the topic we discuss.
Flavius Josephus Against Apion (1)

BOOK 1

1. I SUPPOSE that by my books of the Antiquity of the Jews, most excellent Epaphroditus, (2) have made it evident to those who peruse them, that our Jewish nation is of very great antiquity, and had a distinct subsistence of its own originally; as also, I have therein declared how we came to inhabit this country wherein we now live. Those Antiquities contain the history of five thousand years, and are taken out of our sacred books, but are translated by me into the Greek tongue. However, since I observe a considerable number of people giving ear to the reproaches that are laid against us by those who bear ill-will to us, and will not believe what I have written concerning the antiquity of our nation, while they take it for a plain sign that our nation is of a late date, because they are not so much as vouchsafed a bare mention by the most famous historiographers among the Grecians. I therefore have thought myself under an obligation to write somewhat briefly about these subjects, in order to convict those that reproach us of spite and voluntary falsehood, and to correct the ignorance of others, and withal to instruct all those who are desirous of knowing the truth of what great antiquity we really are. As for the witnesses whom I shall produce for the proof of what I say, they shall be such as are esteemed to be of the greatest reputation for truth, and the most skillful in the knowledge of all antiquity by the Greeks themselves. I will also show, that those who have written so reproachfully and falsely about us are to be convicted by what they have written themselves to the contrary. I shall also endeavor to give an account of the reasons why it hath so happened, that there have not been a great number of Greeks who have made mention of our nation in their histories. I will, however, bring those Grecians to light who have not omitted such our history, for the sake of those that either do not know them, or pretend not to know them already.

Regards MS

quote:   I look around me and already see chaos and anarchy--and a great many people living in denial while absorbed in materialism.  Yes, the chaos and anarchy can always get worse, but you know what?  I think it is bad enough as it is, and I do not think that the kind of absolutes that you speak of will help.    

Maybe you don't think so and maybe you are right. I also wonder about that. One may have the exact solution for a problem but if the solution is how someone else can solve their problem and if charity does not start at home we get no where. Someone said you cannot legislate righteousness! I do believe that we have gotten to this point by getting further and further away from Gods way his love and by allowing neg influences and trends to take over in the world today. The violence and perversion as well as selfishness is increasing by hitherto unknown proportions. You might reason it is becourse of Christianity going into chapter 11 , I think it is becourse we live in the end time and as the Bible says "evil men shall wax worse and worse decieving and being decieved, the earth shal be filled with violence as in the days of Noah" I could go on here but trust you know the verses and all that.

quote:Where is the "old country" that you speak of, and what is your native language? I assumed early on in our contact that you were not a native English speaker and not just being a really bad "speller"!![]

The language is Danish spoken by the Danes , the viking blood runs thich in my veins...as the poet wrote:

"Heave to all below at the oars, Beserks and bondmen alike, see the spray of the salty froth around the Dragon God in the bow, and look still further beyond it to the green hills yonder. The day dawns and with the aid of Thor the mighty we will ravage and plunder and set the land aflame to show one and all that the Danes rule in Brittany and the Viking Gods be the strongest and most fierce and valient in Battle. Drink up all of you for there is Mjoed enough for all, twice to go around"

The Vikings actually have a very interesting history and religion as well. They used to brew a special beer with herbs Hallucigenic Musrooms and honey. It was a strong halucigenic believed to bring on full possession, and they would drink it before their raids. It was called Mjoed, and would cause them to cut loose in a frenzy of bloodthirst. The inner circle of chosen men around the king were called the "beserks". Hence the term to go beserk. They were the first to drink and the first in battle.

quote:I really appreciate your taking the time to discuss these things with me.  I am not sure whether we have really solved any of our differences or not--but I will say that I have greatly enjoyed the friendly tone of our conversations![]

So have I Beth , thankyou.!

Regards Mustardseed

PS I did expect a little oops for the Mustardseed thing[] it was kind of funny didn't you think.?

Dear Beth
Thanks for the answers, and promp reply. As usual I will have to take some tome to read it over again and use my dictionary, but I will just get of this initial reaction. (Oh to be a native english speaker[])

quote:I am glad you made it home safely from your long drive, especially on a holiday weekend.

Thanks, all is well I have the priviledge of being "home alone" for 3-4 days and I am enjoying my solitude immensely.

quote:things are changing Mustardseed, people from all over the globe are falling away from Christianity because so much of what it teaches "does not stand up to reason."  In other words, the literal interpretation is being questioned far more today than ever before.  It is not just "me" vs. Christianity--Christianity is going to have to make some serious internal changes if it is going to survive much longer.  

Well I am not sure you are right about that. I sure would like to see it change but it is my experience that in times of great advance for a civilisation there is often a backlash for those who get confused and decide to slow things down by getting back to fundementalism. Something they are familiar with. You said somewhere that I am more of a gnostic than I realise and you are both right and wrong . I am have much more in common with most new age folks though we differ on a few pivotal points, but I do realise it []) I have known that for a long time and I am ok with that.

quote:  None of what I have just said even includes the possibility that the astral realm is behind the changes taking place, and that perhaps all of this is being guided from beyond our perceptions, i.e., the Will of God.

right you are. I believe that God must also have a vested interest in changing things around, so for the true believer life is wonderful. If I am right in my literal interpretation , great, if you are right, great too. All in all staying true to love and God must be what counts. If thou canst be true to thyself, thou canst not be false to any man......as the poet said.

quote:You have brought this up several times in past threads, and I guess it is safe to assume that having "absolutes" are really important to you.

Absolutely [] I think that if there are none we will have chaos, and anarky. Not only in the physical world but also in the spiritual lives.

quote:I don't have a problem living without absolutes, in the way of having them "prescribed to me" by someone else.  Civil laws are necessary for an orderly society, but I do not think that anyone can dictate spiritual laws, or speak for the spirit that speaks to individuals within their own hearts.  For those that don't "listen" our civil laws are in place to take care of them.  But perhaps there are absolutes Mustardseed, but to me that is like trying to say that we can actually "know the true nature of God."  I truly think this is beyond human comprehension, and if there are any "absolutes" they would be found in this realm of inquiry. The bible even says that "angels" do not know of these things, so how are we to know if even they do not. (And yes I know the story of man being higher than the angels, but that does not stand to reason in my mind.)  

Ha Beth this is so funny. I was actually imidiately thinking about that scripture about man being higher than the angels, a bit spooky , like having a conversation.[]

Now do not take my belief in absolutes to mean that I so much want to have them that I would rather make them up than honestly go without. That is not the idea. I just see absolutes all around me and have experienced the world to contain many absolute truths. No negotiation no questions, some things are true some are false. Unless ofcourse one enters a type universe (much like the Hinduism )as you get into further down on the page. Then 2 plus 2 is not nessesarily 4 . If someone then decides to be a murderer and kills someones daughter, they grieve and 10 yrs later adopts another daughter who  wakes up one night smelling smoke and saves their lives. In this senario the murderer saved their lives. But such a scenario is in my opinion silly. It is also covered in the scripture Ro 8:28. I still believe that the killer will suffer wheather in Karma with the law or in his own mind. "shall we do evil that good may come" no way.

quote:It is in our individual choices and between each of us and God.  No one else can really act as the conscience of another.  And unless we really think we can know the mind of God, we cannot really act as judge in the same way that God can.  This is where "absolutes" are relegated to the realm of God, and we are left with all that is relative to that.  Perhaps just like "one man's junk is another man's treasure" "one man's sin may be another man's salvation."

This is where I think the "film breaks" (expression from the old country[]). The Bible does tell us the nature of God, and though we cannot act as the consience of another we can and should try to do so, as we understand God. Let me explain if we see an injustice. Someone beating up a child. We should and indeed must go up to such a person and interfere and be his /her concience so to speak. If we see someone suffer we cannot pass by like the faracee on the road to Jerico. Gods spirit, consience dictates fo us to interfere. Maybe I misunderstand you but this is where I see anarky. Imagine the scenario and the thoughts of the faracee as he saw that man on the road

" Hey! whats that... , oh a man, look he is all blody and....he is trying to speak to me. Boy o boy is he dirty and it looks like he got himself into some trouble, well that is his problem, in my religion he is unclean and my version of God says, let the poor sod suffer. See you later alligator, ....hum hum where was I?.. ah yes .....I love god he loves me what a lovely family dum dum" and down the road he went!!

I do believe that is wrong. Period.[]

quote:I do not think we can know all the details of God's plan, and I think it is also pretty arrogant of us to think for a minute that we can.

I compleately agree, but that is not what I am saying Beth . We do not need the entire map of the world or even the map of the states to get from Texas to Houston. We do not need to know all about God to know part of him.

quote: Who knows how someone's sin may turn around the life of another.  I know it sounds crazy, but perhaps some people who do really bad things are actually doing something good on a much higher level.

I agree it is crazy[]. Ok no joking, I understand your thoughts but do not agree. This is the anarky I am talking about. It would throw our spiritual lives as well as civil laws into chaos and I believe it is in opposition to the Law of God as stated in the Bible, that says we are to:

"Love one another"

quote:If that seems unlikely to you, then you will probably have a hard time accepting that this was actually a tradition that spanned not only "decades" but was already several "centuries old" by the time of the NT writers.  That was the nature of the "mystery traditions."  They were secret societies that handed down secret teachings from generation to generation, and in my research I have traced it back at least as far as Plato, who wrote 350 years before the 1st century

I probably will have a hard time with that, but it is not inconcievable to me. As far as I knew previously, serious resistance and questioning of the validity of the ancient manuscripts the bible is translated from, only started to crop up in the 19 and 20 century, so yes probably,..... but you are working on that right[]

quote:We both know why you chose this name and where it comes from, i.e., the faith of a mustardseed.  If however, someone were not familiar with the bible, and on top of that did not know the English language, they would never really know "what this name means."  They would just call you "Mustardseed" ---they would not think it necessary to "translate" the words "mustard" and "seed" into their language, but rather just pronounce it as best as they could.  But to us, in our native language the name "Mustardseed" most definately has a meaning, and a very significant meaning at that.  But your parents did not name you Mustardseed--that is a name that you use to "say something about yourself"--but it is still not your actual name.  

For example, hidden within our two names "Beth" in Hebrew and "Mustardseed" in English, it can be used to speak of a "House of Great Faith."  Add to that the name of Jesus in Hebrew, and you would have "House of Great Faith and Salvation."  Add to that any number of other names, based upon their meanings, assigned either through the actual original language such as Hebrew, or through also including "metaphors" such as "Mustardseed" and the possibilities are endless as to what could be communicated.  The "secret" would be in knowing how to read all the languages involved?  Do you see?  People certainly could have picked names for their children based upon the meaning of the names, and probably did, but where this becomes unlikely in the case of biblical scripture is that generations of people would have to have been named "in the proper order" to create the "hidden messages" throughout centuries of a particular bloodline.  If you think it hard to imagine a few decades of "people being in the same tradition of conspiracy" then this would be even harder to anyone to imagine. I find it incredibly hard to fathom how this could have been the case.  That is why I maintain that the biblical characters are who they are, not for historical purposes, but rather for literary purposes

Well Beth I understand but this is also where I see a flaw. You assume that I picked a name to convey a message on this board and that it is not my "real" name. This you use to justify your conclusions and say that this is exactly what people did. If this assumption is then false it undermines your argument...right!!

Well decide for yourself. As you rightly assumed it is not my family name BUT....it is my real name and was not taken but actually GIVEN. In 1976 I had an experience with Jesus as I think I mentioned somewhere in another thread, I had just returned to my own country and felt I had become a new man. One day in deep prayer I had a vision and heard a voice telling me I was to change my name and from now be known as David Mustardseed. This was a relevation to me but I instantly obeyed. Being a new Christian I had read the Bible very briefly and had absolutely no even slight idea what a mustardseed was nor did I see any significance in the name. I also had a limited knowledge of english back then. I have been known by this name for 28 yrs and many hundreds of people know me only as that. I believe that God did that for you as well, possibly to show you that all things are not as they appear. So.... be careful what you assume []

quote:I am not just pulling any of this "out of my hat."

I do not think you pull anything out of your hat Beth, I have come to understand that you are in all things a very sincere and professional person who does serious research.

quote:The writings of Jospehus are rather extensive,

I would like to read more about him.

quote:  My thesis is academic, and you can't get away with that kind of thing when professors have to sign off on it. You don't get degrees for jumping to a lot unsupportable conclusions.  You get an "F."  My thesis was signed off on by two professors, one was Christian and one was Jewish.  It is the real deal.

I look forward to it Beth. Wheather it is the real deal as you say I will have to consider. There is much knowledge taught in universities all over the world that I consider false much supposed knowledge of Men that I believe is non conclusive. It is true we are entering a time where "knowledge shall be increased" incidently one of the signs of the end of days the Bible speaks of. Wheather it is an end of the days of the literalists and superstitions as you might call it or a literal end of the days of earth is yet to be seen. I look forward to it any way it comes[]The truth, the truth nothing but the truth.

Regards Mustardseed

Dear Beth
I did read the links and will comment on it later if that is ok. I just came home from a long drive and had some thoughts and questions while out there alone, that I would like to put to you. It is about your work. I guess it is my turn. I will try to be as patient as you have been with me. I have to try to organise my mind and see if I can explain myself.

I read your post above and it fits the picture of how I imagined you, you did mention these things before to a lesser degree. I can relate to your frustration and subsequent suffering as a child as well as later. I can also see how this would spur you to research and to try and make sure for yourself. I would like to draw your attention to the possibility that this desire to resentment could also be part of the need for you to get even with the abuse and man handeling you must have suffered. In the language of the law you have a motive!!.

About the research itself, it seems to me there are several facts or possible interpretations that could be concluded from the language study you have come upon. There are also a few things that IMO make no sense and that I do not think I would interpret the way you do.

Let me recap in simplicity!!.

1.As far as I understand you have found that the different names and nouns etc in the Bible have hidded meanings and everything has to be taken a layer further or deeper. As an example. The mention of Antichrist is not a literal person but the antichrist in us , so to speak. Christ and his sacrefice then becomes a personal thing, sin is no longer sin and in a way nothing is what it seems. No absolutes,not only does it not mean what it says it means often the exactly opposite.

However I would assume that if anyone would have gone to the length of making such a extensive "code" it would be to hide some truth that would have gotten them into trouble by making it seem innocent and broadminded!!. I could imagine someone trying to hide the appearance of an antichrist by talking about a general antichrist in us all or hiding the knowledge of the power of Jesus to forgive sins heal bodies and command spirits by making it sound like a fable. Not the other way around. Do you follow my point?. It makes no sense to me that Paul would have written a personal testemony of his experiences,  making himself the enemy of the jews in the process and getting stoned and harrassed for "this allegory of his" rather than telling an actable milder tale avoiding persecution and having a deeper more potent reason and meaning, in the back of his mind so to speak.

2.As far as I know the writers of the Bible lived in different places and at different times, and they would all have to have been in on the plot so to speak, and it would have to have been a conspiracy of quite a large dimension seeing there were no phones computers etc. Spanning decades!! This seems unlikely to me

3.Lets just assume that peoples names were indeed given meanings . That in itself seems no different that the Indians calling each other names fitting their personality. (Standing with fist and dances with wolves comes to mind here[]) Why does there have to be a deeper meaning in the names? Why could it not simply be the way people named themselves and others?

4.If the stories in Genesis were told by mouth several generations and then written down is it not also possible that the names assigned to the characters were made to explain who they were, maybe their original names were lost and only their nickname the one announcing whaT they did or were, was remembered incidently then the one with the hidden meaning.

5.I wrote you about Josephous (spelling?) and how he was a contemporary non religious historian or writer and  how he spoke of Jesus, and you questioned his writings on the grounds that he might have had a vested interest in being friends with the Romans. Is it not also concievable that you are compromised somewhat by other interest namely that of proving the hypocrites in your life wrong and getting back at them?

I ask you this without malice Beth please do not be offended. These are questions you might be asked, and they should be adressed wouldn't you say?

I look forward to your answer

Regards Mustardseed

Just to clarify, the above was not written by me but by a guy called Gene. Thats why I wrote end qoute. I dont wanna trap nothing either.[]

I couldn't agree with you more Beth. Those people you grew up aroung in my eyes have morphed in to being the scribes and faracees all over, and would probably crucify Jesus if he just showed up at their church with a bunch of long haired stinking fishermen. I totally see where you are coming from. I traveled extensivly in the US in 96 and 97 and meat lots of these types and frankly they really suck. I believe they are in gross spiritual darkness, and dont even try to get me started on the TV variety of this breed. But what is a man to do?.

In my times in the 3rd world I saw them a lot too. Maybe in this there is also a choice. Maybe they are nessesary to manufacture the little Beths and so on that are needed in order to get something done. Even 1 little candle can be seen miles away when it is dark. There is a lot of darkness in the world. Lots of people decieving and being decieved. But I know that GOD IS NOT DECIEVED! He has this whole thing under control.

Actually I was thinking about a similar point to the one you brought up about the "alleycat syndrome", when I was at the shelter. A lot of those people seemed to praise God very much as a preacher does. Their Spirit was very alike. There were quite a few very sincere ones but I believe that many were "rice Christians" just there for the loaves and fishes so to speak, but Jesus fed those as well!!.

I dont know if you heard about that expression?. It used to be the standard that in places like China and India and I assume Africa, the churches would send money enough with the Missionaries to feed each convert one a bowl at every meeting in the Church, double if they brought a friend and a coin if they got saved. ........And the Christian population grew fast[]. This is a reverse on evangelizing with the sword, but equally false and nothing but blackmail. They would find some that came for a hunger for God but most did not. The shelter can have the same effect, if the ones managing it are not careful. Otherwise it can become nothing but a Rah Rah thing, and lifts up the preacher do gooder or whoever.That is not the idea. There is mostly a preacher that will try to sneak in an appearance to can the credit so to speak and get the news to come and the papers to write about his "great" ministry. More people in his Church as a result to have a look at "the Giraf" as we say where I am from.[]

Christianity has by enlarge turned into a entertainment industry. I saw the famous Schuller in the Chrystal cathedral the other day flipping channels. What a travestry to the truth. My God what a disappointment they will be to God. (I would actually appreciate these folks at a nice little island somewhere near Focus 27 so that I do not have to spend eternity listening to their sermons[])

Anyway wish you the best

Regards Mustardseed

Hi Beth
I had a few more thoughts about your post. I realise that it might be a bit controversial but am encouraged that you yourself seem to be questioning wheather you are being judgemental. Well that is a good question. Ask yourself Beth if you had been born down south central LA or any large city with a mum working in  a strip bar and a dad on crack, what are the choices that you would have turned out an alleycat. I think it is important that we all remember that "there but for the grace of God go I"

You were blessed growing up in a somewhat educated enviroment, as was I, but this should in my opinion humble us and not make us judgemental. I would say that it is not possible to be a good leader guide helper or counsselor unless you have blown it a couple of times and made some big mistakes. If we haven't we might get afflicted with selfrighteousness which I believe in the eyes of God is an even greater sin that smoking Crack. I wonder what level we enter in at then. Maybe our own selfrighteous level where  
we imagine ourself as being someone "super special", one of those islands they say Christians who believe they are better than others go to.

The message of the New Testament is mercy, guiding helping etc. This parable came to me as I was praying along with the story of the prodigal son and his older brother. I think this is also one of the core values in the Bible!!


And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:  
   
   Luk 18:10   Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.  
   
   Luk 18:11   The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.  
   
   Luk 18:12   I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.  
   
   Luk 18:13   And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as [his] eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.  
   
   Luk 18:14   I tell you, this man went down to his house justified [rather] than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

I do not think that people who sin go scot free, not at all, but in a way I also do not think God judges them. They probably judge themselves in this life through cause and effect and in the next through karma and condemneation.?? In any case I feel it is Gods buissness not mine. I am way too simple and selfrighteous to understand the choices they have and how a life is made up of good and bad ones. So generally I try to leave those things alone.

I work as a volunteer in my city Beth at a homeless shelter (wrong side of the railway track[]). I went to celebrate Thanks giving with them there, families almost all black and many drugged on all sorts of stuf. The kids were so sweet and the parents too. They got up and talked about their desire for a better life and testified about the changes that has been going on, and how the program had really helped them. Some never saw it coming when they "got saved" never really looked for it.

One guy had been in a gang for 5yrs as a practicing Satanist, done stuf he didn't even wanna talk about, a radical muslim 10 yrs till 9/11 and now he is here.He had smoked crach from he was 12. He almost committed suicide in a motel room but decided to take a look in the Bible. Psalm 51 changed his life. He now is a counselor holds a job and is doing ..good. An alleycat?

I know it is controversial, and not easy to understand how it all works. I do not claim to be someone special for going there and please dont think I am tooting my own horn here ok, its just my reality. I hate letting people know I go there as I dont want to be thought of as a do gooder but ...... it was very touching and I am happy I have some strength left over for work like that. Sure some of them crawl back in the alley as you said but not all. As I said I wonder what we would be had our life been different.

Peace Mustardseed

I know that there is a possibility that you could get offended but I would like to suggest that you consider the possibility that you are the cause of the encounters!!!. It seems likely to me that you are still involved emotionally and that you maintain and facilitate the connection so to speak. It is somewhat like leaving a forwarding add. She always knows where to find you or you often go for a visit. It is entirely possible that you have a bond in the astral/spiritual, but you alone decide wheather to persue it or not. I myself being 2 times married have such a bond with someone. However I have made up my mind not to entertain it. Not in the physical or in the spiritual. I have closed that door for the sake of both of us. I suggest to you you might still have feelings for her though you pretend to be the mentor only. This is quite normal but can be very detrimental to a innocent mate and two wonderful little kids who needs stability, mum and dad and a family. You can think it over and pray or meditate or whatever you do on this . Then make your desision. Have you ever read the book "Tale of two cities?"

This is just a suggestion if I am out of line I apologise.

Regards Mustardseed