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I've enjoyed reading the posts on this site for a good while, and I always make an effort to read the accounts of people attempting to project. I look for the mention of the vibratory state -for me it's a kind of 'authenticator'. I know if they mention it, that their accounts are likely to be something more than imaginary excursions or dreams.

I think there is a lot of subjectivity in the discussion of OBEs and astral projection, but there are some objective factors. One of these factors is the 'vibrations'.

I am very familiar with the vibratory state; I grew up with it as a kind of 'nightmare' sound, and because I was always paralysed when I heard it, I used to think it meant I was trapped half-way inside a bad dream.

I'd lie paralysed as a child and I always thought it was the noise of a bad  dream coming -strange, murky experiences would tend to follow it, usually heralded by the arrival of a nasty creature in my bedroom. I used to call it 'The White ET'. I don't know what the hell it was, but I would float around the room terrified while it gloated at me.

I know better now, and still sometimes have the experience of lying, immobile in my bed, hearing a distant rushing of sound filling my head, getting louder and louder until...I either freak out and force myself out of paralysis or I leap into a projection.

It's the key indicator for me that something super-normal is going on, and an important distinguishing mark between a normal weird dream and something else.

What are people's experiences of 'the buzz'?

It was hard to move, kind of syruppy, vision was a bit cloudy and I could never get anything like light switches to work.  I'd click the switch but the light wouldn't come on.

I know this. You fumble at the light switch because you're a bit freaked out by the weird, gloopy dark experience, and yet it's broken. You see it as 'clicking on' but nothing happens. The number of times I've attempted to switch on the light only to have my fingers apparently either go through the switch, or seem to switch it on but no light comes on. I've often wondered about that, it's good to hear other people have experienced this.

I'm familiar with this. Whenever I OOBE into realtime, I do it blind. I find it very hard to see anything, but I can feel the cold of surfaces around the room against my body as I move around. I feel completely out, but can see nothing.

I've had the 'old hag syndrome' a number of types when paralysed. It seems to happen when you panic and imagine the possibility of the presence of something evil. The trick is to recognise that it is a syndrome, not an entity. It stops happening when you realise that lots of people get it and it seems to be a reaction to your sudden vulnerability to self-suggestion.

Actually, it might be a clue to the reality of AP. Your physical being is immediately in a state where your mental status manifests, and if you're afraid you create an enemy. Is this an indicator of a state of suggestion perhaps, like self-hypnosis?

I agree that when you have doubts, it stops happening so much.

When you embrace the belief in it, it suddenly happens more. That's weird in itself. And of course, it implies that the experience is a product of desire and suggestion as opposed to objective experience, which is also why the OP mentioned Derren Brown.

The mind plays tricks; personally, my doubts were a product of a particularly large acid dose as a teenager -it reminds you of the fragility of your perceptions. However, I was always aware of being high, and the vividness of any hallucinatory experiences weren't on the level of the ones I had when I was sober.

Maybe the mind is getting a shot of hallucinatory chemicals; but why then is it easier when you believe in it? It's a contradiction; if it's physical, it should make no difference at all.

If it's suggestion, then you're effectively creating your own internal reality, and that means that the entire experience is no more worthy of your attention than a dream.

So I think the aim should be to focus upon this as a discipline; to attempt to regulate the experience so it becomes repeatable. Once it's repeatable, you can start to map it, and only then can you meet others, and that's the thing that's missing here. Mutual validation, due to disciplined focus. I'm not saying I can do it myself, but it has to be the next step doesn't it? (and yes, I saw the Astral Pulse Island bit...)

It's definitely a sign of AP, I used to hear it as a kid too, prior to projection experiences, and that was before I knew anything about this sort of thing.

I should add that I'm not in the habit of believing in things because I want to. It's a very irrational way to go, and just because AP and OOBE aren't real, it doesn't necessarily imply that the afterlife isn't either. Just one possible validator.

Still, do you not wonder about realtime zone projectors? I do, I'm curious as to why people with such an amazing power haven't validated their experiences. Perhaps they exaggerate the lucidity of the experience, and in fact they lack the control they'd need to validate it. I can say that the nearest I've had to realtime was like being a pinball bouncing around the room blindly. It's hard, if it's real.

That was fascinating. I appreciate the view that we can't prove this is real, and in fact by confirming circumstantial commonalities such as '3D blackness' and 'vibrations', we could as much be recognising a neurological phenomenon as a 'paranormal' one.

I am equally aware of the habit people have of 're-interpreting' their experiences in terms of what they've learned, but there are common factors here, that's undeniable.

The thought occurs though that this is not a common skill; it has not been practiced by the general public throughout the ages -at least not in a deliberate fashion, as it takes instruction and awareness to do that. It was previously the domain of spiritualists and shamanic types. Information on this has never been shared in such a widespread fashion before -I myself only developed any experience in it through encountering information about it.

These techniques may have been practiced for thousands of years, but they've only been shared communally very, very recently. I can say one thing; awareness of methods definitely increased my ability to do this (and I'm not one of these people that labels every weird or lucid dream as 'astral'). I read a bit about it, and focused upon improving my skills in it, and it seemed to work.

So, is it not possible that this is a technique that has not yet matured; that people practicing it have not had time to truly exploit it on any level which would allow for definitive 'proof'? Maybe it's only been mastered by a few, but I think the greatest potential for validity lies not in the 'astral', but in the real-time zone.

My view is: If you can freely project yourself into reality, and float around doing whatever you like, you can take steps to prove what's going on.

I'm rubbish at the real-time zone stuff. I find I can't see what's going on, and can only feel the environment of the room, walls and cold surfaces etc. I'm not as good as some.

But those who can do it can surely focus upon attaining proof of their experiences. I think it's pretty essential that this is a main aim of projectors, almost a responsibility in fact.

If they can do it, why aren't they proving so?

I have projected to what I would consider 'astral' zones several times now. As I have sleep paralysis on occasion (and have had ever since I was a child), I find it relatively easy when I'm lucky enough to get paralysed, to project (though for some reason I find it much harder to project into reality than I do astral -I project blind into reality, so I can feel surfaces and move around but not see things properly).

One night, two years ago I managed a good one. I was paralysed, felt vibrations intensifying in my head, and a white noise sound in my ears, then I 'twannged' out, and continued to concentrate on intensifying the vibrations. It's like I can move around freely in the air, but I'm still feeling the weight of my body paralysed in bed.

I don't know how this is done, it just feels natural to do it. The vibrations seem to be key. In this case, when they grew to a sufficient level, I felt as if something was going to 'pop', and then I found that I could see.

I was in a black, hollow void, and a white dot was in the distance. At this point it feels as if my entire body is charged with electricity, the vibrations are so intense. I am lying horizontally, facing the white dot, and shooting towards it at a high speed.

I then see that the dot is a ring, and it grows into a tunnel, which I shoot down.

Remaining focused at this point is hard, because I'm usually quite scared, no matter how often I tell myself to remain calm.

On this occasion I shot down the tunnel, and heard the buzzing getting louder and louder, until I 'flushed' out the end. I get a very rewarding feeling of 'Yes! I've arrived' when that happens.

This time, there was silence, and I was standing in a dusty, dry arid landscape. There were adobe buildings, squat looking desert cottages, and I was in the middle of a path which stretched down the centre.

This was extremely vivid, literally as vivid as any daytime experience. I should stress, this was nothing, absolutely nothing, like a dream.

I found myself eager to explore, and after doing my instinctive 'pick up some dirt from the ground and rub it in my fingers' to test the reality of the place, I wander down the path.

I notice that each of the squat houses seems to be made of sandy blocks, and each has a rose hedge blocking sight of the back yard. Basically, you can't see the gardens. The hedges were quite low though, so I attempted to look over the hedges, but as I did, I got this sense of thorny roseyness, and a feeling that I should not be doing that, so I stopped immediately.

I continued down the road, and saw a figure in the distance. What was odd was that he seemed to be moving in a staccato, 'skipped frame' way (Robert Bruce has apparently described many entities as looking this way). The figure seemed to be moving fast, and almost limping along, but in a flickering, juddery way. I've noticed that most of the beings I've seen (and that's not many at all) move this way.

As he got nearer, I felt alarmed, and immediately felt a sense of concern about him being a thief. As he got closer, I could see he was swarthy looking and dwarfy, with a hood on and seemed like an arab, which was fitting given the climate of the place.

I thought 'Careful, this guy looks dodgy'. As he got closer I sort of glanced at him. He then lurched forward and swung a hand at my back pocket, where my wallet might be. I sort of recoiled, and he laughed goodnaturedly. I got this mental message from him, a humourous sort of disdain: 'So you think I'm a thief, eh? Silly boy.' It wasn't in those words, but that was the definite vibe of the interaction.

That experience was so intense that I 'snapped' back to consciousness immediately.

Thanks for the interesting responses -I realise that it's a very subjective experience. I was probably being a bit straw-clutchy with that post.

No, I'm not religious, because I'm too much of a skeptic!

BTW -are the Bruce Moen books any good?

The thing about a lot of this astral travel thing is, there are definitely correlations, yes? The paralysis, the buzzing noise, then the 'doiiing' noise? Like a spring? The 3d blackness, the tunnel, the hyper-vivid nature of the visions? I wonder is there a correlation in astral geography too?

When I used to do it, I was aware of these silly little 'fluffy' things, skittery little beasts that sort of grip onto you when you're trying to explore.

Additionally -is there any significance to the Winking Cartoon Alligator? *no kidding* That bit was probably dream based, but it seemed relevant as I saw it on coming back to normal one evening.

I also remember that water and naturalistic imagery was usually the place you end up. Fields sometimes, but commonly beaches and rockeries, also deserts. One place was a sandy, adobe-block village with rose bushes that were blocking the view into the gardens.

(I only did it 6 or 7 times with conscious awareness)

There was also a tunnel that *sometimes* appeared, which you shoot down at high speed. I had managed to stop myself on a few occasions, by catching the edge, to find, surprisingly, that it was almost industrial like in structure (sort of like the game Doom, actually). I only have one memory of doing this, and found it quite painful and pressurizing to stay in the tunnel, and felt like I had to catch the slipstream of the main movement flow again as a matter of urgency.

I also remember that on the occasions that I encountered another human-like being, it was sort of moving at a weird frame-rate, 'stuttering' along as if it was skipping a few frames in a juddery walk. Very weird.

Additionally, it was hard to remain on an 'Astral' plane when I was there, and I would have to focus very hard to stay where I was. I would find myself touching the floor and feeling surfaces to ensure I could stay there, and weirdly, looking at my own hand.

Ring any bells?

EDIT: and sorry, I can't prove anything myself because I've had only two exits so far :p

Thanks anyway.

In any case, there have been verification experiments (google "OBE verification experiment") where people were able to prove that OBEs are "real" -- in other words that they are more than just a creation of the mind, because they give you the ability to see and know things that you couldn't possibly have made up

I have googled this sort of thing, and nothing credible's turned up. I suppose I'd like to hear if there's anything people here have experienced that has convinced them of the reality of this.

I'd like to trust the people who publish books on this stuff and earn a living from it, but without at least some opinions to verify it it's difficult. I'm posting here because I know that it's not in the interests of forum posters to lie for the sake of making money. I trust people with no financial incentive more than those who charge.

[wanted]

Hi All,

I used to have experiences like those you describe -sleep paralysis (sometimes induced, sometimes accidental upon re-awakening from sleep), the buzzing that releases you into a void, the 3D blackness, then (sometimes) a tunnel, then a short-lived experience in a world that seems to be formed of vivid, intense imagery.

I never trained in this, but I still experienced it, and I rather enjoyed what I saw. The thing is, I lost it somewhat, and it happens now and again, but I find it hard to remember what's happened.

About me: I'm in my mid twenties, and I've recently discovered that I don't have long to live (long story), and I'd like to know if any of it was real, mainly for that reason.

I used to wonder whether it was a hypnogogic state playing tricks with my mind. I sort of wanted it to be true, and sooner or later I had to admit that it could be all in my mind. Suddenly, the issue is extremely relevant to me/

So my question to the posters here is this: How can you be sure? In fact, how can you even know that any of this isn't just dream...

Thanks in advance for your replies.