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This is a practical experiment in researching the existence, nature and capabilities of various astral entities. It is carried over from the Pendulum divination thread http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5116. Since there were several people, including myself, who were establishing firm communication with astral beings of one sort or another, and the idea for a group experiment was welcomed by some, this thread is for devising, carrying out and recording our attempts at investigating 'higher plane' entities. For those unfamiliar with the pendulum, or other mediumship oracles, please see the thread mentioned above. As opposed to the originators of that thread, I don't plan to be the centre of theory, nor practical work, for this experiment. It is in all respects a group activity, and any input, discussion and criticism is welcome, provided it is objective and courteous. Also, it is the group's responsibility to moderate the group, not a single individual's, I feel.

Perhaps the first thing is to confirm those people who are interested in joining the experiment. Ideally you will already be successful with any physical oracle, whether it is the pendulum, ouija, automatic writing, etc. In addition, anyone clairvoyant enough to perceive astral beings directly, or those who can consistently astral project, would be very much wanted. Could those who are interested reply with a quick note to say so.

I have spent the last day and a half working with my two methods of choice - pendulum and trance clairvoyance - to figure out an initial approach to research avenues. I don't yet project consistently enough to use that method in my research, and my RTZ projections are still weak. It seems most entities don't yet have the abilities I'm looking for - physical object manipulation, English-based conversations, distance telepathy, navigating Akasha, thought-form manipulation, etc. but they exhibit a strong desire to be taught, and do seem to have access to information that I don't, plus they really do seem to enjoy the attention and relationship aspects and are of course operational 24x7. If people are interested in my initial work, and thoughts on research direction, I can post this after we get an idea of interest levels.

[lot]

LOL []

quote:because Ive become a little more sophisticated, I think

I'm sure everyone thinks you've become a lot more sophisticated too.

I can't type for much longer...all these recent facts have somehow 'put a trap' on my keyboard...[:p]

Mirador - your comments show you are both a novice, and ignorant of the higher laws. I spent years performing black rituals, with low and earth magick (including voodoo), against anyone who offended me. I learnt the hard way (ie, my karma), and was severely berated by higher sources, for abusing magical knowledge. I also (fortunately) ran into a white magician that stopped me and explained how magical reaction really works, something of which I conveyed earlier. If you think Karma is mumbo-jumbo, why do you think voodoo is any less mumbo-jumbo? The whole question would sound like mumbo-jumbo to any untrained person. If Kiflarer wanted the answer of a novice, he would have posted elsewhere don't you think?

If I give detailed instructions of how to secure the mummia of the recipient, what the best times of consecration for the doll are, which voodoo loa's are most effective and how to sacrifice to them, how to draw the victim's astral essence in trance into the doll, how to cause various pains and diseases to beset the victim, I am karmically responsible for it all, as are you if you do so. I don't attempt to remove the freedom of anyone wishing to do so (unless they do it against me), but novices should be told that there is far more to black work than they think.

By the way, how many voodoo dolls have you made? How many ritual attacks have you conducted? How far does your magical knowledge go?....I will gladly be silent and listen if I have something to learn. If not, I suggest you be silent.

Be careful, the only avenue you have without incurring negative karma yourself is if the recipient is karmically due the negative effects in the first place, in which case you become the instrument of karma through your work. However, there is a very fine line between lawful karmic repayment, and blatant violence on your part, and if your intent is simply offensive, as opposed to making the recipient experience the fruits of their actions, then you will create new karmic causes that you must pay yourself. There is no way to be sure unless you can contact higher beings, or have access to accurate divination techniques...

There are two other factors to examine when you feel you have been wronged: (1) did you deserve this? ie, are you being repayed for karmic causes you created previously, and (2) how will things be with you if you let this be? ie, you actually stand to gain karmically by accepting events and possible wrongfulness against you. Many advanced practitioners actually allow attacks against them (which they defend) to go unpunished as this is meritous karma, along the lines of Christ's "Turn the other cheek" statement.

If you choose to attack, and are sure that neither the recipient nor anyone in their circle can counter-attack, then buy and practice "Voodoo Sorcery Grimoire" (search amazon) or try //www.guildofsorcery.com for some basic ritual work. Black voodoo is quite powerful because of the strong Earth magic techniques used, and the direct action of the lwa's (if you are successful). It is some of the hardest magic to break, but also some of the most insidious and, again, I caution you to seek better alternatives. You could make a Mercurial talisman (lawful vengence) or even an impromptu spell/thoughtform would do the trick with sufficient practice.

If you are able to make the spiritual and philosophical leap, I recommend turning your magical efforts to transforming your enemy into a friend - you are able to gain them as an ally and a resource, you no longer have to fight a magical battle, and Divine Providence will greatly esteem such excellent action. Almost all of the seasoned (wise) practitioners I know don't fight unless they really have to, and it's over something important. The practice of buddhist metta meditation or simple prayer are adequate for a novice to achieve a change of heart in the other person.

Lysear & Fenris - no problem [] Glad it made sense [:p] Fenris, what do you think of Garden of Pomegranates - to be honest I found it quite monotonous and in many ways devoid of true Pathworking detail...just imho

Adrian - you are absolutely right about the ability of the untrained mind to create elementals and larvae through unmoderated thought. The problem is compounded when such thoughtforms, being fluid and mobile, affect many minds in a given area. Widespread character traits in areas/types of societies such as rage, lust, perversion, hostility, etc are in many cases fueled by thoughtform contamination. Seedy areas beget seedy thought, and sacred areas beget sacred thought, unless one is trained to protect their astral and mental spheres. As an untrained, and hormonal, young man I often engaged in sexual fantasies and had a nice host of larvae to contend with when going through purification. It's an education in the nature of astral force and how to counter one effect by introducing another...

As for incubi and sucubi, I have never encountered either so my speculation is purely theoretical, but from reading accounts of their attacks I believe they are more than mere elementals. They seem to have an intimate knowledge of the human nervous system, and are often effective without the astral or mental stimulation that would be present if they were elementals. They are familiar with the human sexual organs and the lower two or three chakras, and intelligently target and stimulate these to the point of involuntary orgasm within 3 or 4 seconds. This would seem to be quite distinct from the thought pressure applied by elementals, as well as the fact that their motivation doesn't seem to be to entrance the victim with their thought content, but rather to cause orgasm and feed and then promptly leave.

In terms of exorcising oneself from the control of elementals, the notion of removing the instigating thoughts is very good, as is focussing on the opposite thought (anger is removed by engendering love, etc). If a magician can accumulate and project Akasha, and is clairvoyant, they can also form a volt of Akasha and strike the elemental directly, instantly rupturing the astral cohesion of the thoughtform and removing any appearance of life or intelligence. The astral matter thus struck returns as raw material to its plane of resonance. This is beyond my abilities at the moment [], as is using Akasha to bind and punish other lower entities/manifestations.

Great question, and it has distinct practical application [] Forgive the length of the post...

For someone who can still their surface mind at will, the minimum effort is 15-20 seconds of total concentration to produce a thoughtform that has a chance to survive within the astral once the concentration is removed. If the creation is repeated often enough (10+ times daily), the thoughtform has a great potential for permanence after several weeks. When a thoughtform becomes very strong, through months of practice or through group effort (and especially when programmed to vivify itself continually) it takes on the quality of an egregore, an autonomous intelligence. This is an act of true Creation on the part of the magician, for which he is ultimately karmically responsible. However, the *strengh* of a thoughtform does not change the *density* on which it operates. Even the strongest astral egregores cannot produce physical phenomena unless they obtain and use matter of a physical/etheric density. Their usual route is to prosecute their will on the astral vehicles of humans, which once subservient can execute physical demands.

The notion of growing a thoughtform strong enough to become physical, etc is not quite correct. There is a definite process of manifestation in transforming a mental-density thought to astral form then to physical (etheric) form. At each stage, the thoughtforms can be stronger or weaker depending on the effort of the practitioner, but the devolution of the thoughtform into lower planes is separate to the strength at each level.

The mental plane is pure concepts, devoid of passion or emotional attachment. If I wanted to create a thoughtform in all three densities (which has best results) to, for example, project intimidation around me as a defensive mechanism in tight situations, or an offensive mechanism of my choosing, then I would start with the purely mental concept. This takes experience with knowing what resonates purely-mentally, and also how to trace a thought back to its fundamental concepts. In this example, it would be "I am feared" (or without the English conjunctive pecularity, simply "I-feared"). One would create this mental thoughtform by stilling the mind then thinking this thought, along with the purely-mental assocations of dominance, repulsion, power and safety. At no time would one indulge in the emotion of projecting fear, dominance, repulsion. All you are doing is creating the formative conceptual shell for the astral emotions, which in a way "implement" the mental cause you are creating.

The astral plane is emotion and more discrete thought. In this particular example, this is where the power comes from. After days of practice building the mental-density thoughtform, you would add to it the emotions of total command and power in yourself, and absolute terror and fear streaming out of you into any being in your vicinity, the sensation and knowledge that you are repelling them from any attack on you, and a supreme feeling of dominance in yourself. You would oscillate between the mental concepts and the astral emotions, strengthening each independently but at the same time joining them as a single thoughtform with dual density participation. After one or two weeks of regular practice, the thoughtform should be immediately accessible to the practitioner, requiring almost no effort to feel the full strength of the concepts and emotions. It is now his companion, available at will.

To transform this into physical (etheric) density one must bind the astral content to etheric matter. This is chiefly done through energy manipulation, condensation and then "wish impregnation" (an apt Bardon term). The most potent form of physical implementation is in your own body, so during your thoughtform practice you now add the *feeling* and sensation that total power and dominance flood your entire body, filling your head, torso, limbs, etc and every muscle, vain, bone, etc. With constant practice, your etheric body becomes saturated with this feeling. You then project this internal power outwards and make it translate as fear in all beings around you, that they involuntarily submit to your power and shrink back from you. You repeat this projection with eyes open, seeing and *knowing* that that effect is produced physically, affecting their nervous systems, clouding their mind, etc.

With repetition the mental-astral-etheric thoughtform becomes very strong and automatic. You would then bind the thoughtform to a physical movement or a word said mentally/verbally, so that it's effects are automatic when that trigger occurs. For example, you associate the presence and action of the mental-astral-etheric thoughtform to gripping your left middle finger with your right thumb and index, and from now on only vivify the thoughtform when you do that action. In time, it becomes automatic and you no longer need to add any strength to the thoughtform - its actions are immediate when you perform your action. You then go into a business negotation, or a rough neighbourhood, to test your work.

Thus, the translation from mental to astral to etheric is only possible when matter of the desired *density* is used, regardless of the strength of the thoughtform at a higher density. Humans are greatly feared among the lower astral realms because of their ability to act on all three planes simultaneously and thus use vastly more causative force than such single-density beings.

Your question about the creation of thought during projection is answered with the same mechanism. The thought is created in your astral sphere, wherever you happen to be located. If the thought is not of sufficent resonance with the sphere you are currently in, and you are focussing on it hard enough, you will be transported to a more resonant sphere. I have been in the Belief System Territories then moved to a "university" type structure on a higher astral location, and then simply through recalling the thoughts of a moment ago (BST-bound) was transported back to the same BST sphere, and through releasing them went back to the university. The only caution is that your astral environment will be subject to change based on your thoughts, especially for those skilled in total concentration, so negative emotions will place you in regions perhaps not to you liking. Regardless though, the thought you create while out of body is no different to those in-body. However, you cannot manipulate etheric matter unless you refocus on the RTZ, or go back in-body.

The example above is purely for illustration. I would never advocate projecting fear; Divine Providence would be disappointed that you had made the Universe just that little bit more negative, and your reputation in higher circles would be damaged. The same effects of safety and command could be achieved through projecting harmony, love and oneness, which Divine Providence would reward.

Also, you can condense thoughtforms into etheric matter external to you own body, such as a crystal, a plant, talismans, or the etheric body of someone else to aid in healing, security, positivity, etc. This is the basis for Bardon's "wish impregnation" in Step 1 of IIH, affecting the etheric and lower astral densities of food and water that one ingests with a particular desire.

Definitely agree that IIH (and Bardon's other two manuals) are the very best available on hermetic ascent. AOL's comment that the timing must be right is very true - there are students who buy and read the book but only start practicing some years later, when the maturity and desire are present. I personally have a low opinion of Lomer's 7HL and don't advise it as a precursor to IIH in any way. Bardon's Step 1 is divided into sufficient sub-steps to allow a total beginner to achieve (and see) discrete success. Lomer's asceticism is, frankly, neither balanced nor hermetic - a product of his own morality. Bardon is far more circumspect.

Concentration by Sadhu is good, but has some stupid exercises in the middle, and his goals are decidely narrower (ie, simply "concentration").

Modern Magick is one of the best introductions to CM, although the real source-book is "The Golden Dawn" by Regardie, the quintessential CM introduction. IMHO there is nothing wrong with learning and using ritual magick at all. The problem, from the eternal and evolutionary point of view is (as Bardon says) if you don't know what you're doing (using rituals, formulas, etc whose mechanisms you don't understand or control), you don't actually evolve. Magic done without understanding and direct control of the forces is called Sorcery, an ability that is impermanent. I have several close friends who were sorcerers in their recent previous incarnation, and the power of their ritual magic did not carry forward to this lifetime. However sorcery is not the same as ritual magic, esp high ritual magic, which does give evolutionary abilities (eg, LBRP, MPR, COBL, which all change and refine the astral body). MM is a good intro to it all. His chapter on Sex Magick is woeful, as is the cursory description of Evocation. Evocation should only be attempted after real magical power, and the ability to control the elements, are attained. I have heard of some friends of friends who were almost killed from demons they foolishly evoked to physical density without true magical authority. Bardon's approach to evocation is the safest, even if it's not the fastest.

Other great introductions to CM are "The Tree of Life" by Regardie and "Three Books of Occult Philosophy" by Agrippa. Excellent sorcery manuals are "The Book of Solomon's Magick" by Poke Runyon, "Necronomicon" by anon (despite the controversy, it does work), and "Voodoo Sorcery Grimoire" by Brujo Negro.

All magicians should strive to completely understand (and befriend) their unconscious. There are too many books to list on this one, but "Quantum Psychology" by Robert Anton Wilson and "Optimal Thinking" by Glickman are great lateral approaches to improving one's mind and character. Anything by Wilson will be well worth practicing for any serious student - he is like a western zen grandmaster.

On the mystical side of the spectrum, the teachings of Master Ramana Maharshi (Mouni Sadhu's guru) are peerless. He was one of the few who attained true enlightenment last century. A disciple of his named Lakshmana Sarma wrote "Maha Yoga" under the alias "Who" - it is Maharshi's modern version of the ancient teachings of Advaita (non-dualism). There is nothing close to it in all other schools of mysticism, and for mature students the teachings are truly liberating.

"Initiation Into Hermetics" by Franz Bardon (Merkur 2001 Ed is ISBN 1885928068 []). Written 1940-1960 (I have no specific idea - maybe someone else knows?) before Bardon died a martyrs death in a Czec prison. He wrote three (complete) books, apparently at the request of Divine Providence, explaining some of the most powerful methods for elemental magic, astral and mental travel, evocation, and *practical* qabbalah. I'm sure many people on these boards know him and are practicing also.

If you proceed, two really valuable resources I know of are the BardonPraxis yahoogroup, and the website of the owner of that group, Rawn Clark, an extremely accomplished Initiate who makes himself available to the internet for the love of the job, similarly to Robert Bruce []. Not only is he very powerful, but he is very accessible, friendly and genuinely desires the hermetic progress of those he instructs.

Hi timeless, thanks for the compliments [].

IMHO you have some really good ideas on the psychological manifestation of the elements... I think you might find value in a similar list by Franz Bardon (in his introductory Theory section to Initiation Into Hermetics) of temperaments associated with each Element. For those interested in *practically* sensing, understanding and manipulating the Elements, that book is the single best volume in existence for doing so, written by a true Adept.

The difference of opinion with Lysear is not uncommon - on the surface the Elements appear to be a mere philosophy, especially so when applied to one's psyche (eg, like I-Ching, etc). The elements *must* be practically used to derive *any* value at all - mere knowledge of them is worthless. Many occult abilities (some quite fantastic) are possible through accumulating, condensing and projecting the Elements. Lesser magical traditions, namely GD, have only indirect and weak methods for working with the elements - Bardon's course on hermetics truly is the best.

LOL []

quote:We do not really know the nature of the universe, we can only speculate on it

Too true friend, so long as you apply that statement to your own opinions as well.[]

The answer is not theoretical. For novice magicians, the question is valid. For those who can condense and project the elements in their own bodies, your opinion is as purely speculative as my opinion appears to you.

Lysear, the Elements are very real and many trained magicians work directly with them, astrally and mentally, so although it is true to say they have no *direct* (or rather *pure*) physical manifestation, they are not abstract either. In hermetic science and the western mystery tradition, all manifestation, even on the highest and seemingly infinite planes, arose from the first element, the truly Causal, called Akasha. This element *is* pure Intelligence, God, Divine Providence, etc. However it is the only 'element', as we use the term, that can exist in both unmanifest and manifest states... all other elements do not exist in (absolutely) unmanifest states.

Adrian is right, in the causal chain, the electric and magnetic fluids (Franz Bardon's terminology) came first, not the elements. The term electric does not refer to electricity, it refers to expansive, massively vibrant, blinding light, searing heat, etc. It's nature is projective. The term magnetic does not refer to mangestism either, but rather to contractive, cold, attractive. It's nature is receptive. Everything in Creation, low to high, is composed of these two 'fluids'.

The four Elements are adaptations of these two fundamental forces. Fire *is* the electric fluid, Water *is* the magnetic fluid. Air is the absence of either, or rather, it is abstractly "non-commitment (to form)", taking the moisture (or abstractly "no density") from Water but not taking the property of contraction or magnetisation, and it takes the property of dryness (or abstractly "no temperature") from Fire without taking the property of expansiveness or white heat/light. It only exists where Fire, Water and Earth are absent, which is why the ancients termed this element "Air" - it behaves exactly like physical air in that respect. The *force* that is apparent from physical Air is a property of conjoining with Earth at the physical density. Earth is opposite to Air, it is the *consumation* of the two fluids, and incorporates Air also. Instead of borrowing individual properties from the other 3, it *merges* what seem to be irreconcilable differences, such as expansiveness and contraction becoming "density" or simply "presence". For physical manifestation (presence) *all* elements must borrow from Earth, and thus are not expressed entirely purely. The closest physical manifestation of Fire isn't actually fire, it is the searing hot and bright energy in a bolt of lightning. The closest physical manifestation of Water is almost totally freezing water, such as occurs in the deep ocean or at the poles - it is not ice because that is too dense and "form-full". It is dark, freezing, motionless water. This is how the two polarities in existence (electric, magnetic) become four elements.

Humans can train themselves to perceive and manipulate all elements, since we possess within us all 5 elements. There are Beings of the Elements - we call them gnomes, sylphs, salamanders, undines, etc - which are purely composed of their respective element. They can only manifest physically to humans when provided with physical-density Earth with which to materialise.

Inguma's comment is interesting..the parallels to states of matter are good, but a more accurate comparison is to the fundamental universal forces. Quantum physics now recognises that there are only 4 fundamental expressions of force, known as the Strong, the Electromagnetic, the Weak and the Gravitational. After over five hundreds years of post-middle ages thought, science has finally caught up with ancient hermetic knowledge. These four forces correspond to the elements, and even more startling is the way in which these four fundamental forces resolve into two complementary forces. Reducing the laws of physics, to state all existence in terms of two forces is known commonly as the attempt at a "Grand Unification Theory". The reconciliation of those two polarities/forces into a single expression of all manifestation is known as "Super Unification", the formulae of which would describe Akasha physically (and only physically). Incidentally, String Theory contains endlessly more startling confirmation of much spirital knowledge in it than mere quantum mechanics does. If anyone finds it interesting, check http://physicalworld.org/restless_universe/html/ru_5_23.html for a brief description of the physical forces.

Gandalf - thanks, I realised the same thing a little shortly after I posted that. The thread was simply too long for me to bother reading every prior page in detail, otherwise I would have noticed it much earlier. I really don't see much use for the pendulum in my daily practice at all now - as a subconscious communication tool, I have deep trance which is like talking/seeing/being in your subconscious. In terms of receiving messages from one's higher self, I use other oracles combined with energy sensing - eg, when my higher self wants to give me a message, I ask it to flash energy through a particular hand when I pass it over a given rune or tarot that is the answer to a concern of mine, and complex messages can be given in this way with multiple runes/tarots. I have tested this form of divination with many many rational tests - it has never failed at the card-guessing or other similar tests - which is why I felt that at least one of my pendulum sessions I did communicate with my HGA, because afterwards I validated this in an oracle session. I don't make it a habit to seek answers from my higher self - life and its lessons sometimes need puzzling over, and much pain, to be learnt. But just this past week I had good reason to contact him again, and it worked as ever - startling, confronting and a clearly higher message that made everything right again.

My best wishes []

Hi Lasher - I haven't read any of Eco's books actually. I generally prefer non-fiction but I saw the reviews for Name of the Rose and Focault's Pendulum and I am tempted to being Name of the Rose []. I enjoy a good story, and the several fiction pieces in my library are all similar recommendations by friends, for good intelligent novels.

Thanks Mayatnik, I appreciate your reply and the gracious manner in giving it. I'm sorry to hear about your sight impairment and the effort required to read and respond. I'm disappointed that you might have found my tone abrasive - I've never tried to be, and in fact spend quite some time toning down each response before I post [].

We do have different, and perhaps irreconcilable, methods. I understand the points you make above, and your general message. To me, without solid insight (examination, reason and objectivity), one can interpret the pendulum as any number of things. I don't mean to imply that rationality is cold, since I know that genuine messages of higher beings can often be cryptic and confusing (to human logic). The problem lies in many inconsistencies - the pendulum saying one thing then being proved incorrect, time after time, or simply not demonstrating what would be minimally expected of higher intelligence. For example, I could fictionalise that the pendulum is actually my alter ego (let's call him 14 []) in a parallel universe communicating with me. I could fictionalise that when I hold the pendulum it is in fact me that swings while the pendulum stays still, and that it is simply a device to measure how much the universe is swinging at any one time. Without objectivity, a belief system is a 'fiction'. With total objectivity, a belief system is truly a 'best guess', something I prize in my metaphysical pursuits. When I say "objective", I mean "does not contravene direct evidence or logic", not necessarily "physically verifiable", since many aspects of the spiritual cannot be tested physically at this time.

I wish you the best []

Novice and GreatOutdoors, thanks for the update on the pendulum work you've done. Frank, thanks for the compliment []. I'm glad in a way to see the results are different from my own, strange as that may sound. I guess the first thing would be to confirm what results people get with a strict "firm hand" method - could you ask a series of questions normally, and then ask them again with your entire forearm and hand resting on the edge of a desk *and* with your eyes closed? I literally have only my fingertips hanging over the edge. Novice, you're right in that the "firm hand" test in itself doesn't preclude communication from something external, only that it seems dubious given the mind's own ability to generate pendulum swings. Also, the mind has many generally untapped abilities - guessing the number of paper clips in a hand is very easy for the subconscious...I've met people in the flesh that trained in subliminal dynamics (www.subdyn.com) who can access the intelligence of their subconscious and tap vast, "Rain Man"-like, abilities.

To be honest, I've no firm assumption one way or another, be it subconscious, astral or guide theory. Perhaps a single explanation is not possible, nor reasonable. To use an analogy, I can pick up the phone and talk to either my mother, a criminal, or the Prime Minister with equal possibility (even if not equal probability). The phone mechanism remains the same, but I'd be mistaken in thinking I was always talking to my mother when I spoke to a criminal (although perhaps not so mistaken when thinking I was talking to a criminal when talking to the PM []) The question is, is this a bona fide analogue phone connected to the outside world, or am I talking into a little plastic Fisher-Price plaything connected only to my head?

Mayatnik, I realise that the recent flurry of excited debate can seem frustrating, perhaps even pointless. In my consulting work, I know that the *best* ideas are subject to the *most* scrutiny and excitement from people, simply because they are so good. You have every right to be proud of the knowledge you initiated, it has given many people their best experience of the non-physical. But the way forward, like all science worthy of the name, is to allow a group of peers to discuss, experiment and critique. This is all that's happening. I for one am not interested in artificial disputes or ego battles - only at making a best guess at the truth of spiritual topics.

Thanks for the interest guys. The basic idea for the experiment was to establish objective contact with external intelligence(s), but my own experimentation in recent days has gone a long way in dispelling some of my own automatic assumptions. I posted on the TRUTH SHALL BE KNOWN thread with the latest. I have suspected the same situation with ouija myself once or twice, having known people who can perform ouija entirely by themselves and seeing similar content from their sessions.

I guess as a test of the mechanism of the pendulum, it would be cool to see what results you get by keeping your hands entirely fixed, either through holding your hand against your forehead or a firm surface (desk, etc). Also try getting results with your eyes closed...I'd be interested in hearing what you get. If it confirms what I got, I'm not sure a communication with astral wildlife would be objectively possible. I also experimented with telepathy with my pendulum - it read my mind fine, but reading my room-mate's mind was hopeless, adding to my theory. All in all, I'm not interested in pursuing the experiment once we're able to generally agree that the phenomena is likely to be self-generated, ie. subconscious.

Noxerus, the best practical pointer I could give if you are working through IIH is to get Rawn Clark's "A Bardon Companion" //www.abardoncompanion.com. He is a bona fide Step 10 initiate, and has a good style. Any further words of mine on top of Bardon's and Rawn's would be entirely without value. The only other advice I have is practice practice practice - there is no better teacher. I'm sure you'll make great progress [].

Mayatnik, I'm glad to see you decided to return.

I have been using the pendulum several times daily, for the Experiment thread in General Metaphysics. Something that made me stop and reconsider all my assumptions, was when I held my hand *absolutely* still. Merely resting one's elbow does not ensure your hand is stationery. For people who doubt this, try holding the top of the pendulum thread to your forehead (something that isn't liable to the minor movements of the forearm). Press your hand into your forehead to ensure there is no extraneous movement. Better yet, rest your entire forearm, hand and fingers on the edge of a desk, dangling the pendulum from your (now very) fixed fingers. What do you get? I got nothing, absolutely nothing, and that was after getting 5 inch swings moments before...Makes you wonder what's really at work...if the pendulum really is being moved by something other than me, why does it look, feel and seem in every way to be my own hand doing all the movement, unconscious or otherwise?

Here's something else...close your eyes during a pendulum session. Mine stopped moving straight away, and all I got was the natural movement of a bob on a string. With my eyes closed, no matter what verbal, mental or other pressure I exerted, that pendulum couldn't move. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put 2 and 2 (ie, my hands, my eyes) together...I asked it "Are you my subconscious?" and it said "Yes"!! What is one to make of that?...needless to say, it was quite an eye-opener.

You haven't bothered to reply to any of my other questions, but I guess there's a first time for everything... Simply because a question is difficult, it doesn't make it or the questioner 'negative' or 'closed-minded'. I began by taking all your instructions and guidance at face value - the only difference is I tested them, as honestly as one tests one's computer, for faults. Is it right to present some knowledge to an open group, but then dodge any serious concern that is raised? I'm glad to see in your recent posts you are now won on the virtues of 'group effort'. If that's so, I'd appreciate your very experienced answers on the questions above.

As for the theory that any inaccuracy on the part of the pendulum is a 'test' by one's higher self, aliens, etc... this is rather spurious don't you think? You say that the 'pendulum' can access the Akashic records, yet any time a person has so far used the pendulum for precognitive questions, it has never once succeeded, including both mine and Novice's questions. Are these all tests? How long does the higher self, aliens, etc require such testing for? And what is it's purpose - is this really the form that 'guidance' takes? Do you think wrong answers are more likely to guide us, or confuse us?...If only I could go back to my Uni exams and explain to my lecturers that I was simply 'testing' them with my 'guidance'. Your guide says she is an evolved alien being, delivering knowledge of higher dimensional learning via direct telepathy, yet to date she still fails to locate someone astrally and report their initials... Does this sound right to you? I'm writing so bluntly for a reason - your writing is influencing students, and you should be accountable for the accuracy of your statements. I myself teach classes of students in psychic development, and we should both know the responsibilities of a teacher are significant. If people blindly trust this pendulum with matters of consequence, you are partly karmically accountable for the results. I sensed you very briefly saw the possible truth in the objective comments I raised, but the conclusion was simply impossible to accept, and Karek was very quick in giving reassurances within the belief parameters that you are now accustomed to. The belief system you have is very hard to break out of - it is self-validating (ie, no external validation) and you have constant extra-sensory affirmation. Could the possibility of the pendulum being the subconscious explain various people's weird dialogues, the failure at objective testing, the limitation to one's own eyes and hands for it to be effective at all, and the general lack of real intelligence? Could it also explain the uncanny ability to locate missing (forgotten?) items, make intimate personal statements, or invent excellent fiction? Is this remotely possible?

Just some thoughts friend... Although I have chosen to write more harshly than usual, I can tell that you have a good and giving nature, and you are genuine in your desire to spread such valuable knowledge. I only ask that you consider the possibilities. Like I said before, Karek will resist this process, both overtly and covertly (through offering more 'guidance' and 'encouragement' to examine things, but still within your current beliefs). You sound like you're opposed to book-learning of any kind, but you might want to look at Prometheus Rising by R.A.Wilson, a truly mind-expanding practical examination of the nature of thought, both normative and abberative, and it's ability to invent and affirm itself. Check out the reviews on amazon if you don't believe me.

PS: I just noticed boomy's posting on the next page...how synchronous []

For those interested in starting experimental work with the pendulum, and any other effective cross-dimensional communication method, I started a thread under General Metaphysics at http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5264. If you'd like to participate, please reply to that thread instead of this one, and once the group is formed we can start serious planning and comparing notes on some good directions. Initially I had quite a few ideas on capabilities to examine, and experiments to try, but once I started probing via pendulum and in trance communication, I found many entities simply weren't very capable, so I feel the experiments may have to be progressive - that is, first establish regular contact, then teach it some basic protocols, then examine it's abilities and mutually exchange information with it on aspects worth exploring, then conduct fully-fledged experiments between participants on many of the aspects we'd like to know about. I am personally interested in future probability reading (akashic records), telepathy from human to entity to another human, entity remote viewing (physical and astral), magical empowerment and the human-familiar relationship, and other assorted stuff. The only other thing worth mentioning to those whose pendulums seem to have quietened down once you became more inquisitive is, mine did the same thing until I relaxed and communicated the fact that I had no expectation of it's abilities, and didn't get upset or anxious one way or another, I only asked that it be honest, really honest. Since that time, it has worked as strong as ever, and it no longer lies - I openly ask it eg, "Do you have the ability to read this card?" and it will say "No" quite quickly. Mind you, it still tested me initially and I had to berate it for lying when ti did, but now it is open and truthful for the most part. This is the point in the relationship where true progress can be made, I feel. For what it's worth, I've found that astral entities don't really view deceit the way we do - it's not a bad trait in them at all, it's like they're just 'imagining' stuff up like they always do. So establishing the human expectation of absolute truth in them is in itself a task.

Noxerus - yes friend, I do study hermetics []. I'm glad to see someone else here knows the name of Franz Bardon, a true Adept of the last century. I practice trance and energetics, and also high magic and earth magick, but focus on the astral effects of magic in trance rather than mere physical rituals. In the vast higher dimensional world we live in, there is so much to learn it staggers the mind.

Just wanted to give a warm thank you to those who posted recently. I can stop holding my breath now...I was unsure whether I'd offended the entire forum by probing too much and taking the shine off such mystical and 'divine' knowledge... Hearing that there are other students who recognise the value of the objective process is assuring.

A quick note to Frank - the strength of pendulum (and other physical oracle) movement is directly related to the amount of energy the being/entity can muster in you, and the free movement of it throughout your body. Robert Bruce's NEW, combined with trance, will help you a long way in this regard. It will also help you project into the RTZ, something you've been seeking for a while I believe []. Your concentration on the brow chakra is good - try extending this by raising energy throughout the whole body, and becoming aware of your whole etheric body strongly. RTZ projections from this state are much more likely - you effectively project your consciousness with enough etheric-density matter to engage etheric senses. Generally, consciousness at a particular density requires a body of matter of the same density - RTZ is pure etheric matter, made available through energy training. Higher-level astral/mental projection requires a body of higher-level (refined) astral/mental matter, gained through the course of spiritual training and/or consciousness raising. I sense you have hitherto been a little reluctant to embrace energetic training, maybe even considering it all a bit too fluffy or 'new age' to bother with, and/or just peripheral to your current projection work. Give it a try, you have everything to gain [].

To the group, definitely keep the pendulum work and discussion going... it is fertile. The mad scientist in me is thinking up some really cool group experiments to try, especially combined with other divination abilities and protocols I use, I'm just not sure of the interest level, and if people wouldn't prefer that I shush and Mayatnik come back.

Hello Edi,

quote:We all can benefit from the vast experience you seem to have

It really isn't that extensive. I'm only in my 20's, and there is so much to learn that it is overwhelming.

quote:in what way is using the pendulum similar to other forms of channeling?

What I believe here is a combination of direct experience, secondhand information (other practitioners) and books. My best guess is as follows..
- a human exists in all 3 planes, physical (and etheric), astral and mental simultaneously
- a being of an astral or mental density does not exist physically or etherically, so normally we do not *physically* perceive them, but they astrally and mentally perceive us. This is why I can ask a question in my head and get a response - I am communicating an astral or mental thought form to them. This is also why lower entities fail at certain pure-mental operations (like maths) which are devoid of emotional "sense" to them - they do not naturally operate on the plane, or with the mind, that thinks in pure concepts.
- there are two methods by which "oracles" (tools of divination) work. Either the tool is purely mental (ie, occurring only in the diviner's head) or it is mental/physical, requiring manifestation of an etheric density to work
- This is very much like entity evocation and summoning...a being must traverse from it's natural plane to a physical or more conscious astral plane if asked, and so it either has the ability itself to accumulate energy of the right density to do this, or it is granted by the human doing the operation. Any interdimensional communication works the same way.
- In cases where the diviner consciously or unconsciously grants etheric energy to the being, it then transfer its consciousness to such matter and gains the sense abilities at that density. It can then influence physical and physical/etheric matter for as long as it keeps its consciousness at that level.

I was genuine when I said my theory here is based on personal experience. Even last night in talking (via pendulum) to a being, I could feel the energy being drawn from up my body and out through my right arm, very noticeably and constantly. I told the entity I knew what it was doing, and said it could take what it needed as I had plenty. I projected energy to it and told it to give me a really big swing and it did exactly this. The same mechanism works for ouija. Automatic writing works when the being transfers consciousness into the etheric matter *of the limb itself* rather than just drawing etheric matter out of the diviner. Experienced 'writers' intentionally exteriorize their astral limb and give the entity full control over the etheric counterpart, all while conscious. Full mediumship (temporary possession) is the same mechanism but through the whole body. Experienced mediums also exteriorize, at their will or the will of the being, their entire astral during sessions. Needless to say, anyone of right mind would never allow such an exercise unless they had very developed will power and were sure of the intentions and capability of the entity. The humble pendulum is a simple method for mediumship.

quote:Is it - from your point of view - possible or likely that any sufficiently intelligent (whatever that may be) entity which can get our attention use the pendulum to convey it's answers to us?

The answer to this is not simple, but the short of it is generally 'yes', afaik and imho of course. If you offer an open invitation, any entity operating in your astral vicinity and on the same natural plane that your astral resides, will be attracted. However, you can invite (through prayer, consciousness raising, etc) higher beings who can easily respond and provide their own etheric matter. I am no expert on pendulum specifically (although it's not exactly rocket science) but I have found in the 20 or so I've done so far, simply starting the pendulum without forethought is like the 'open invitation' mode, and the quality of responses has varied greatly. I have also used prayer and invocation to get (what I believe is) my higher self, or a higher being, once. If a relationship is built over time, the same entity (high or low) will develop a telepathic link to you and you can call it at will. This again is nothing new, I can do very similarly with my girlfriend - it's a product of time and mental association. It's even better with humans because you can intentionally join chakras together forming energetic channels.

quote:By the way, you too have your "religious" beliefs, your view of the world, based on a life on experience

Absolutely!! [] I'm very glad someone understands the nature of the word 'dogma'. We all have our beliefs, and in one sense everyone *does* have their religion, their dogma, whether they justify it objectively/scientifically or subjectively/emotionally. There is a key difference though - it's the difference between having a dogma and being *dogmatic*. When people consider their beliefs/dogma as replaceable, and strive to learn, having no problem with 'being wrong', they may have a 'best guess' dogma, but they are not dogmatic. I have said several times I would readily change my opinion if I found I was wrong, and my method of enquiry is objective, so I do my best not to *be dogmatic*. I use the word "religious" to indicate "dogmatic", ie. emotional and rigid attachment to beliefs in the absence of evidence, or in the presence of evidence to the contrary.

quote:
1) Who or what are we communicating with when we use the pendulum?
2) Can we be sure of it?
3) How can be be sure of it?

As I said above, the answers do vary based on several things, but the possibility of high quality divinations and contact with great intelligences definitely exists, and is worth our best efforts. Some people don't like the notion of prayer, but it is effective in raising one's consciousness and invoking the right character of being. Despite one's efforts though, validation is always advised, and only when trust is *proven* should one assume one is talking to a high being. It is so easy to start channeling one day, get talking to something 'interesting', then this thing affirms your beliefs (with some alterations of it's choosing), and when the relationship grows over time, you think you're talking to the Messiah, or an alien race, or your HGA... Simple objective validation could save so much potential heartache and confusion. I've been through this myself, several time, and so learnt by experience to *prove* the nature of the beings. There are surprisingly more mischevious astral beings than you would think.. for them it is exciting and fulfilling to build delusions of grandeur - they literally *live* in their thoughts and to have the confidence of a human is incredibly significant to them.

Anyway, I don't intend to take centre stage in what is undoubtedly a group effort, and there is a lot of experience from many corners. We really should conduct a group experiment, since so many people are getting discrete pendulum activity. I like any open discussion of truths, whether people agree with me or not - it is always a learning experience. My only request is to for people to cease being dogmatic, and to be courteous and objective. Kind wishes []!

Tisha - I realise you'll be afk when I post this, but I wanted to thank you, as another practitioner, for voicing reason and careful thought in what is otherwise devolving into a belief system argument. I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify my gender too [:p] - although my buddies would say otherwise, last time I checked I was very definitely male. But I appreciate SeekingAnswers cute distraction on that point []

There really isn't much to add - some of us have diverged from logical "point, counterpoint" discussion to derogatory personal remarks and emotional defence of belief systems. If anyone thought what I've written is illogical, or the product of imagination, they were free to say so. I am new on this forum, but have more experience in this area than I bother saying, and the reality is that astral inhabitants are no different to physical inhabitants - a vast assortment of capability, intelligence and ethics. Tisha knows this and I can tell is a practitioner also. I have spoken with several other very experienced practitioners about channeled entities, with exactly the same opinions. I encourage people to *objectively* test and validate the communicating beings - there is no other way to be sure. I'm convinced that speaking with high beings is possible, but without any sort of validation, divination is open to misuse from the other side. This is, neither fortunately nor unfortunately, simply the way it is. Remember that people who aggressively and emotionally defend their beliefs always have a lot to lose if their beliefs are wrong...

As for banishing, noone should feel that that is rude - it's how beings are shown the door. An entity which openly and intentionally lies to me is neither welcome nor tolerated, and a swift kick in the pants on the way out is fully warranted I feel. On the other hand, beings who demonstrate genuine ability and rapport I am very very courteous and obliging to.

I feel this discussion should continue nonetheless, since valuable information is still available via the pendulum and other divination methods. In fact, rather than be dominated by belief systems, we have the chance to do very interesting and objective group divinations and any number of pre- or post-cognitive experiments. "Avante garde" research is the true spirit of metaphysical learning, not "Thou shalt do as I say" religious beliefs. SeekingAnswers and Mayatnik are not the first 'new age' religious thinkers I have met, and I won't fall for the trap of debating belief systems. So instead, I'd like to see if anyone is interested in conducting objective experiments on pendulum work, and to use the group consensus or majority as validation of certain information. You never know what is possible...last night I got the pendulum to speak to me in English through a code I developed ad hoc, then and there. There really is no fixed vocabulary between intelligent beings - it is as the practitioner decides.

As for you Samuel...do you think my knowledge is from books only? I guarantee you I have more experience with entities than you are aware of - I can see from your infantile posts exactly how much you know. If your guide is truly All-Knowing, and in particular is aware of me, then I give you one simple test - what is my name? or even my initials? Ask your guide and tell me what it says...I know it will have no answer, or will refuse the test. Why? Because, plainly, it is not what it makes itself out to be. It is a lower astral being...hardly a "loving guide". I will do my best to cloak my true initials and reveal a false set - if your guide comes up with them then I will know it has some ability, but only minor talent at negotiating thought-forms. Of course, I expect you to reply with something along the lines of "This is absurd, I'm not going to even try"...Here's an idea - why don't you send me your photo and I can show you how much I've learnt from books. I have no reason to tolerate your personal remarks against me much longer. This is a forum for knowledge and growth - open discussion is natural and integral to that. Instead, you display the bigotry that would make any fundamentalist proud. Send your guide to me, I will give you a sigil for him to contact me in trance. I would enjoy talking to him [].

Friends, like I said, this is good knowledge, but the process of finding the Truth is always through questioning, discovery and brutal honesty - blind faith or unproven beliefs plays no part in higher learning at any level. Robert Bruce uses the phrase "Catch Basket" to explain a similar thing. It would be good to see a group pendulum divination on a future event, something we could all verify, and it would help with people's individual objective testing of higher entities...Just a thought. My fond wishes to all serious students.

Thanks Lasher, Novice and GreatOutdoors for the vote of support. I really don't want to make the discussion into a battle, and while I have my own processes for learning and testing, I do my best to respect anyone's right to their beliefs.

Mayatnik, I'm sorry you feel that way. Frankly friend, it is your problem, not mine. I've never been discourteous, and always tried to keep the discussion on a logical, enquiring basis, but you have become aggressive and personal. There is no need to be. Is it really me you are angry with? I know you have dedicated your life to channeling, and have built a great relationship with Karek, but can I ask if you have absolutely verified beyond any doubt the information Karek (and others) give you? I realise the great appeal that channeling "higher information" from "superior alien races" has. In my experience with several forms of divination, as well as my own trance and astral contacts, I have met a wider variety of "Intelligences" (some of them not worthy of the name) and so am not as trusting by default. I followed your instructions closely, and my pendulum makes discrete and verifiable moves. I am convinced of the ability of it as a communication tool. But mystifying it and making it almost a religious practice is unrealistic. It is a *mediumship* ability, like anything else, whether automatic writing, in-body channeling, ouija, etc. They *all*, without exception, use the same basis of etheric manipulation by a foreign entity. For a person trained in astral- or mental-plane wandering, they can converse with such beings in their natural habitat, as could also happen OBE. However to gain a physical manifestation, they do not inherently have matter of a physical or etheric density, thus they need to borrow it from humans. A medium provides this from their own etheric stores, or draws it in from the external environment, allowing the being to manipulate physical objects by applying their will to the loaned etheric matter. This is not new, nor am I inventing it - read any good mediumship book written in the last 100 years. The ethical and intellectual capabilities of the being will *always* *always* vary, and unless one is clairsentient enough to perceive the energy signature (identity) of the being in question, one is neer sure, despite the assurances of the being (ie, Are you my Higher Self? Are you Karek?)

I have worked with the pendulum several times a day since beginning, and last night I asked to speak to Karek. After several moments the pendulum stopped moving, then started circling which I intuited as another entity coming through. I asked if this was Karek - she said Yes. I asked several questions related to your posts and SeekingAnswers posts - most of the answers validated what you had said. Several disagreed with it. I asked if Karek would speak to you soon, and if she could pass on a message from me. Obviously, either she didn't pass on the message, or the being I talked to wasn't Karek (surprise, surprise). I genuinely have an interest in all forms of spiritual learning, and I have not made any effort in my posts to discuss my experience in various areas - it is not an ego battle nor do I want to make it one. I am happy to be the humble student for any new lesson. I performed a pendulum test just now to continue my enquiries on it all - however this time I was very very strict and entirely objective in my questioning. This is an example of the simplest form of objective test for any channeled entity....

13: To indicate your presence, please give me a strong Yes signal
P: indicates Yes
13: I am not sure of your identity, but I will abstractly refer to you as the Pendulum, and treat your knowledge and ability as that of the pendulum generally, not that of any single entity. Do you understand?
P: Yes
13: I am going to perform an experiment to confirm your precognitive ability. Do you concede to such an experiement?
P: Yes
13: Do you have the ability to know, predict and accurately advise on the future, as I understand time?
P: Yes
13: To confirm, you have the ability to read the future, including my particular future?
P: Yes
(I wanted a confirmation, since entities such as Karek have told me to expect a "Sign" indicating they were aware of my future)
13: Do you have access to the Akashic records in either astral or mental density?
P: Yes, the circle (SEARCH)
13: (Figuring out a rephrase, limiting to a single question) Do you have access to the Akashic records on an astral density?
P: Yes
13: So you can navigate the Akasha to become aware of future probabilities?
P: Yes
13: Do you have access to them now?
P: Yes
13: In that case, can you read the very immediate future?
P: Yes
13: Then let us begin the experiment. I will choose 3 cards from the major arcana (lying on my desk). I will pick 3 at random, lay them face down, and ask you to navigate to the future (when I turn them over) and tell me whether they are numbered even or odd. You have a 1 in 8 chance of random success, but I will take success as proof of your ability. Do you understand this experiment?
P: Yes
(Chose and laid out 3 cards face down)
13: (Laying my hand on the first card) If this card is numbered Even, signal Yes, if it is Odd, signal No. For any other response, such as inability to continue, please remain still.
P: signalled Yes, indicating EVEN
13: To confirm, you signalled the first card to be EVEN. If this is correct, please circle clockwise.
P: circles clockwise
13: (Repeating question and confirmation process with 2nd card)...signal Yes for Even, No for Odd?
P: signalled Yes, indicating EVEN
13: (Repeating question and confirmation process with 3rd card)...signal Yes for Even, No for Odd?
P: signalled No, indicating ODD

So it predicted 1st card EVEN, 2nd card EVEN, 3rd card ODD. When turned over the cards were...
It predicted
1st card...16 "THE TOWER"......EVEN......(Correct)
2nd card...7  "THE CHARIOT"....ODD.......(Incorrect)
3rd card...3  "THE EMPRESS"....ODD.......(Correct)

Well, it was far from convincing, but with 2 of 3 I gave it the benefit of the doubt and repeated the experiment. I explained that it got 1 of 3 wrong, and for the first 2 minutes afterwards the pendulum was less active. This *always* happens with such entities - they know they fail and they know we know. Having had this happen many times before, I cloaked my bemusement and put on a cheery tone, and project confidence and trust to the entity, asking nicely for a second run to further explore it's predictive ability. It consented, and I performed exactly the same process (question, confirmation, etc) with the following results.

It predicted 1st card EVEN, 2nd card ODD, 3rd card EVEN. When turned over the cards were...
1st card...1  "THE MAGICIAN"........ODD.......(Incorrect)
2nd card...2  "THE HIGH PREISTESS"..EVEN......(Incorrect)
3rd card...21 "THE UNIVERSE"........ODD.......(Incorrect)

With final results at 2 out of 6 correct, I told the entity it was either lying or grossly deluded in it's predictive ability. The pendulum became silent, and I banished the being from the room and my mental sphere. Very predictable - I have had many entities claim incredible sources of knowledge, and fail on the most simple of tests, like reading a wall clock or knowing basic elements from the future. Without fail, they all pretend to be more than they are until proven otherwise, which is why it is *essential* for humans to be more assertive in their interdimensional communications. Most astral entities love the attention, and will make up very fanciful stories so long as the session continues. However, they *do* have the ability to read thoughts, which explains the great success they have with personal elements - if I had access to someone's thoughts I'd be able to put a very convincing subjective experience together if I were channeled. I've even explored this aspect further, with several people all participating. We get people to guess numbers from 1 to 10 in their head and get the entity to guess the person with the highest number, lowest number, etc. After explaining the rules several times, most entities *still* fail in the ability to apply simple logic to the contents of the minds they read. Their existence is entirely mental and emotional, they are often like children who haven't even been taught basic arithmetic, but they do excel at certain mental abilities. I mention this only to say that caution and rationality are advised in all cases. This isn't too much to ask is it? and any being of good nature and high intelligence will readily concede to this human peculiarity. Certain beings (those who are warm towards humans) actually enjoy it - it's as if a child tried to grill an adult by asking "What's 4 + 2?" The can always convincly *demonstrate* their abilities. Anything of lower ability relies on bluff and the faith shown by the diviner...

Edward - it is your choice to cease further postings. To be honest, I find it a little immature but I thank you for the knowledge you contributed in any event. If you were more open to discussion, criticism and exploration, you would be nowhere near as emotional. I guarantee you, your 'guide' Karek will not like me, nor will she like any interrogation of an objective nature. If this doesn't scream something to you, no further words of mine will. I wish you the best in your travels and higher learning friend.

LOL []...Seeking Answers, perhaps your 'guides' misunderstood me, yes? [] As I said before, I'm not seeking to throw doubt on anyone's knowledge or practices, and I respect Mayatnik's guidance. But the hostile and authoritarian tone in your reply tells me a lot - I think, to be perfectly frank, you are 'divining' the contents of your own psyche. If you had a wide enough experience of various channeling methods and the entities being channeled, you would know how common this is. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but you should seriously question a being of 'higher intelligence' that reacts like they have been personally injured when their teachings are probed... I am talking from experience, I have spoken with many guides and entities, and they are very much alike - they all hate to be questioned, they are all speechless when proof is shown that their knowledge is false, and they all behave erratically thereafter. I hope yours is different. I have only a few times encountered higher beings who enjoy questioning, in fact their answers are so good as to remove all further doubt and the need for questions... in fact they openly joke with me about my questioning nature. That sort of being has my respect, not the one which you so emotionally 'channeled'. Remember, the Truth is your soul has the Divine Spark within it, you yourself are a Being of the highest order - you are inferior to noone, and any being which asserts superiority or mandatory authority is not worthy of the attention of Truth-seeking individuals.

As for Mayatnik and Karek, I spoke with a being who claimed to be Karek tonight, who passed me a brief message. I will wait for Mayatnik's response on this, since if it was his guide then she will pass on a message from me and he can quickly establish publicly that such channeled guides are more than peoples' own psyches. If it wasn't, then the pendulum has apparently told a lie, which has the same conclusion, ie. an objective proof of the character and ability of guides will be made one way or another. In fact, if Karek knows me and has mentioned there is a Sign for me, surely she would know my initials? This alone would convince me of the ability of such pendulum-channeled entities.

Please don't interpret my probing as pessimistic tyre-kicking...but I have learnt over time and with experience to fully explore the integrity of channelings. The fact that super-physical communication happens does *not* indicate the nature of what is on the other side, be it pendulum, ouija, full mediumship, etheric touch, etc. You might find Robert Bruce has adopted a similar approach, given the many entities he has also been in contact with over the years. The only way forward is rigorous and honest questioning...I'm sorry friend if you don't see that, but clinging to a comfortable belief that is unproven is called 'religion'...

Thanks Mayatnik. I understand what you're saying and will take the instructions you provide at face value and see how my own work with the pendulum develops. My goal was not to cast doubt on the truth of your methods - I just have a regular habit of open questioning. I find that, especially in areas of higher knowledge, any time questions are discouraged the knowledge is suspect and does not stand on it's own merits, relying on 'authority'. But I recognise the need to adhere to a system to get the proper benefits, so will continue with the instructions as you have given them above. I am always interested in learning more, friend, and will let you know if I receive a Sign as mentioned by your guide.

Mayatnik - thanks for the correction of my technique. I had not honestly read your original post in detail - merely skimmed it - and attempted the method using my own intuition and guidance on how to develop the signals. I use forward-backward as yes and side-to-side as no. Based on what I know, I respectfully disagree with the assertion that there is One Right Way in terms of technique. I say this while also acknowledging that I don't claim a Divine source of knowledge telling me that there is one right way - I only have logic and experience. However, I have found, with several forms of divination, that it is between the recipient and the transmitter to develop a Vocabulary of signals. This "vocabulary" gives interpretation and meaning to the actions of the oracle. Using a predefined vocabulary is fine, but there must be good reason for saying one is better than another, other than just one is the 'established' form. This is akin to saying to me that old Latin is a better language than modern English...if the meaning can be conveyed with either language, then one is not necessarily better than the other. One language can only be better if it conveys more meaning, more accuracy, or has a broader vocabulary. Even with ouija, there are many possible signs available - I have even drawn smiley faces, love hearts, etc with excellent success - in fact sometimes the being communicating will draw pictures (ie, love hearts) over the board, without any prompting on my part. In other words, the vocabulary is always personal and mutually developed and agreed, not dogmatically asserted, in my humble opinion. In terms of the pendulum, there are 5 available signals that I can see - forward-backward, side-to-side, circle clockwise, circle counter-clockwise, and being still. Attributing meaning to each of these seems fairly arbitrary to me.

I do like your blessing and initation ceremony, which I did not perform initially and will do with my pendulum now. I did use prayer and energetic transfer which is my equivalent though.

As to the source of the divination, I am not entirely convinced to be honest. My experiences with other forms is that entities of various states of enlightenment may participate. The key thing I have found is desire, and thought force. The desire for it to be a link with one's Higher Self and using various invocations and rituals to only limit the Higher Self to participate make it so. Simply opening oneself to any Intelligence, or just asking blandly for answers does not sufficiently filter the respondents. I have found that prayer can also be quite powerful. I have personally spoken with entities ranging from pathetic astral wildlife pretending to be Archangels, through to very evolved and higher beings, whether these were 'Higher Self' or not is intellectual - the knowledge from higher entities is almost always valuable in it's own right. In terms of my pendulum use, I am still undecided. It has told me it is my Higher Self, but self-assertion is no assertion....even the Bible has verses that say it is the word of God, but saying so does not make it so. I will say, that the pendulum has been very reluctant for me to test it as I normally would with any other source of knowledge. This does not sit well with me, but I will play along on the chance that it is my Higher Self asking for a little faith. Time will always reveal what we are talking to...

These are simply my opinions. I am not dogmatic about them and would change my mind if proven wrong, friend.