Messages

<sigh>I should have known better. Every couple of months someone wanders onto these boards determined to let everyone know that there problems can be solved through light and love (or non-action, or "intent", or whatever). Where you come from, or what life experiences led you to come to this point of view are rarely, if ever, discussed (the only instance I can recall was a guy who eventually let on that his guide told him all this stuff, and soon after, his guide told him that we were all bad people plotting his doom and he should go away fast... I don't think anyone missed him). Without that key piece, you're just speaking from a philosophical point of view, trying make the world believe you by the power of your argument alone (and it's not a very convincing one).

No offense to you and other like you, but I don't buy it. No amount of moralizing, self-aggrandizing drivel with change that. And just so you don't the wrong impression, I'm not angry, just tired of a conversation that refuses to be useful. You baited the hook, and I bit, so I'm complicit, but I'm also ending this here, unless you choose to take this conversation in a useful/practical direction. Of course, the measure of that would be that other people actually take an interest in participation, rather than just enjoying you and me typing at each other.

I have never felt that powerless.

I'm happy you've lived in such uninteresting times. May fate keep it so for you.

chromed

[warning: this is strictly speculation!]

Certainly, you would agree that key to using magic is making one's
intent as clear as possible and focusing that intent - otherwise, what
is the point of ritual and incantation, and utilizing specific
symbology?

A quick magic lesson, from my point of view (not that I'm saying you need one, but just so you know how I operate): There are two thing necessary for magic to work: energy and intent. Intent is "created" by a focused and disciplined mind prior to the ritual. Frankly, that's the easy part. The more difficult part is raising the energy (by tapping symbols, whatever) and combining the two (that's ritual) into something that has a chance of working.

In that paradigm, intent is important, but it is one of *two* things, and that's why I said I wasn't as convinced to the all encompassing power of intent. All by itself, it's just like wishing.


I do not think, however, that we are ignored.


To me, that depends on what we're talking about In my experience, there are things/entities/godforms/whatever that take an active-ish interest in what happen here on earth. I find it hard to believe, though, that the universe as a whole cares. Or more interestingly, that whatever created this universe is specifically concerned about me... the concept always seemed a little conceited (and we all know occultists are *never* conceited!). I've never really had a good way to test this though (death seems like the most likely candidate, but I've also met some things that convincingly claimed to be departed humans, and in general they where clueless on the subject as well).


Regardless of tool or technique, intent is necessary, and the fulcrum on which all hinges.

I think we're in relative agreement here. But it is just one part of a machine (magic)... a fulcrum or a bar by itself is useless, it's only when used together that you can actually do interesting stuff.


What is with your fascination in power over others? When you recognize that true power lies in the knowledge of your power over yourself, then you will understand me.

In an equally cryptic statement, when you understand that power over yourself is power over others, then you will understand me. Seriously, though, who said I have a fascination with power over others (besides the obvious jibe "well, you are an occultist")?


Recognize that your foe is you, and all will be clear.


More guru/swami-like talk. In my experience, I am not my enemy (on most days . I am not the cause of obstacles in my life, I am the solution to them. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I can only depend on my experience. My observations, and conclusions, may be incorrect, but you've offered nothing to make me doubt them (not that I'm suggesting that that is your purpose behind this discussion).


Using your will to control others is an offense. OF course, I am  ignorant of the larger karmic connections, but I do not believe in it.
It can be done, but it is always a trick.

I am not a fan of the western (or even the eastern) concept of karma/dharma. It implies an oversight by something that acts as a cosmic nanny, spanking people who get out of line. The law of causality I can buy, but karma doesn't jive with what I've actually seen. But even within that concept, if it's my fate to be predatory, who am I to argue with my karma? (I'm not saying that I am, I just wanted to go ahead and open another useless debate on that topic .


For example, for the purposes of argument let us say...

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and just assume the speciousness of your analogy is a result of the limited effectiveness of analogies, and not because you're ignorant about magic. I know, again from *personal experience*, that magic is not limited in it's effectiveness to people who know you're targeting them (for good or ill). It isn't a matter of "[changing] his mind" but the application of energy, guided by intent, inline with certain rules.

Now, if this guy is just wandering around, imagining that people are cursing him, eventually, something will attach to him (one of the many little astral parasites) that will show him things that make him think he's being attacked, which will create more fear, which will feed the bugger, which in turn can do more impressive things to scare someone, and thus begins the cycle that you'll see often on this board. Up to a certain point, you can counter the entity with relatively simple remedies (including just "changing his mind"). At a certain "size", though, the entity has enough energy to actually be at least marginally intelligent, and it won't let go of it's meal easily. At which point, you need to seek stronger remedies.

My guess (warning: this is strictly speculation!) is that most of the people who come to this board asking for help are not (or at least are no longer) under attack by people. They've either fed, or attracted, or someone gave them, a big enough astral entity that sees them as a tasty treat. People who are particularly venerable are those with some natural psychic talent and some kind of emotional trauma. They have more energy (=food on astral) than the average joe, and have an easy place for the parasite to latch onto. I don't say this to denigrate the horrors they suffer through or the havoc that these things can cause in their lives, but in my experience, the amount of effort required by an individual to support a long term magical operation of *any* type is staggering.


One of the things I really enjoyed about RB's books and articles is his emphasis on his experience. I find the same trait in occultists who are effective at what they do. It's important because we can philosophize all day about the nature of the law of intent, but the only thing that matters at the end is what you can *do* with it. Or, what have you *done* with it. Like so many topics in metaphysics, we can wax philosophic, but what does that accomplish? So, I ask you and the other people on this board, what are the practical implications of the law as you see them, and is this really backed up by experience and experimentation/verification (as opposed to vague platitudes)?

After reviewing your (kiauma) conversations with SD on another thread, I think it's safe to say that we have a very different basic models of how the universe works (and are probably equally mired in the consequences of those models). I'm not near as convinced as you seem to be in the all encompassing power of intent.

I think where my model and yours differ is the role of humans in the universe. My experience has shown me that we are very small fish in a very large pond, and that there are more ponds out *there* than there are fish in this one. Essentially, we (intent and all) are not really so important that the universe/god takes notice of us and conforms to our will. We have to use other tools (energy, chiefly) accomplish our will. An analogy would be that just because the rabbit goes through victim-hood therapy, and comes out not believing that snakes have any power over him doesn't protect him from a snake. The rabbit just isn't important enough for nature to make the exception. (A consequence of this model is that I think we both agree that the responsibility for dealing with the snake lies with the rabbit (or dealing with an attacker lies with the victim)... you from a POV that it is ultimately the rabbit's "fault" (that's a bad word, but a better one escapes me), me from the POV that no one else will do it for him). In my experience, magic doesn't fail because the target didn't believe, but because the "rules" were not correctly applied.

But maybe I misunderstand you, and this is your point: If someone asks me how to defend themselves, the answer is almost always remove/reduce the number of ways you can be attacked. As far as I've ever seen, the practical application of this was never just "believe" the attacks away, but YMMV. In fact, the practical version of my answer is to take up a tradition of magic, not because it will allow you to somehow "blast" your attacker (whatever it may be), but because the changes that occur in a person who practices magic (*practice* being the key word) make such attacks more difficult. You can spot them more readily, you're no longer as taste a target for astral pests, you become exposed to energies other than human, etc. Whatever the reason, it just seems to work. Here, the intent is to remove someone else's power over the victim, but it's hard work, not intent, that accomplishes the goal.

Before we get too far into this discussion, too, I'd like to point out that I'm not approaching this conversation from a purely philosophic point of view. In my occult work, I strive to stay only with things I could test (at least as far as you can test something as subjective as most occult subject are... like, for instance, astral entities . Some of this discussion will undoubtedly fall into some areas of speculation, where I'm either guessing or repeating what I've gotten from some entity, but haven't independently verified, and I will try to label those clearly.

There is plenty to hang myself with above, so I'll stop now
chromed

quote:Originally posted by kiauma

Can we take that to mean you believe in it Chromed?

Actually, the point is that belief in magic (voudoun, wicca, [insert tradition here]) is irrelevant. It works, regardless of whether the target believes or even knows what you've done anything (provided you've followed the other "rules" of magic). The fact that you don't even know what a loa is doesn't mean that someone can't use one to help/cause havoc in your life.

If you really want to continue this, either pm me or start a new thread... I think we're a little off topic.
chromed

lol... Like stubby, I'm also a mason, and this site is not unique in it's attempt to show the "evil" of freemasonry. If you want to learn specific rebuttals to the most common complaints against masonry, I highly recommend :

http://www.masonicinfo.com/

Btw: Anyone who thinks masonry is about sex has never been to a lodge. Visit one, and you'll discover the real secret of masonry: it's about *FOOD*! A lesser known secret is that you get to dress up in a tux, wear manly jewlery, and one lucky guy even gets a sword to carry!

Generally speaking, most magicians I know shy away from aluminum, atleast in ritual settings. Concensus is that it has a bad magical vibe as opposed to metals that have a more established planetary association. I imagine it wouldn't have the effect you intend.

Unfortunately, you're at a pretty big disadvantage in getting rid of this person's influence since you really don't have any magical training of your own. You have to play with the kiddy toys of the magic world (sympathetic magic) while it sounds like she might have access to more interesting methods. In fact, if I had to guess, her influence is probably tied to something she has of yours, not the other way around.

However, there are some things you can try on objects that you believe might be "tainted":
-Just get rid of them. Your already putting some psychic distance between yourself and them, so put some physical distance too. If you don't want to throw them out, just return them. Burning is also effective (and fun!).
-If she's really bothering you, burying the stuff somewhere nasty like a graveyard. That should send the message of "get the hell out or else" to whomever is trying to use the stuff to get at you.

Of course, the best advice I can give is learn to defend yourself. From previous posts, it sounds like you're just a walking psychic experiment lab for this person, and they're not going to stop until you make them. If you make it even a little bit difficult for them to manipulate you, they'll eventually go on to easier prey.

just my .02$
chromed

quote:Originally posted by volcomstone
or don't even resist it, voodoo means that you hafta believe in it for it to work,

Remeber, it's not important whether you believe in voodoo... it's whether voodoo believes in you!

chromed

Shedt,

The shock *might* not be negs. What you're describing sounds very similar to deep trance state/pre-OBE "signals". I've personally noticed that if I'm paying attention when I AP/LD (ie. my technique isn't leading me into na-na land , when the vibrations come, they do so slowly. If I'm not paying attention, they seem to rush on me like a wave, leaving me feeling like I've been hit with high voltage power (this is also typically accompanied by a big jerk in my physical body, followed by my wife kicking me for shaking the bed . What this could mean is that you're just naturally inclined to AP/OBE, and should probably read the sections on the website that talk about it (if you haven't already).

This does not preclude you from having neg issues, however (even if it is the "astral shock" effect). Your childhood experiences seem to indicate *something* was going on, and you're going to have to be the one to determine the cause. As far as I can tell, there is a direct relation between people with spiritual interest/abilities and the amount of negative "stuff" they have had to deal with. I don't know which comes first (the abilities, or the things you need the abilities to deal with), but rarely do I meet some untested soul with any real ability.

Oh, and I don't buy that neg "attacks" are uncommon. In my experience, most people have to deal with minor, low-level larvi/parasites. They can seem pretty scary (after all, they tend to attack when you're asleep or otherwise), but mostly the parasites just find an emotion hot button and keep pushing it (kinda like those animal intelligence tests -- push the button, it gets fed). It's not really an attack, any more than you're "attacked" by a mosquito. Eventually, if nothing happens to disengage it, it can get large enough to cause real havok in someone's life, but that's a relatively rare case (IMO).

Of course, that's just my 2 cents.
chromed

quote:
The second law of thermodynamics states that all things run down, in other words everything naturally becomes less organized with time.  Nature fights against evolution...even the most die hard darwinian will admit that nothing in evolutionary theory can explain this.

Then you've not been speaking to some very informed evolutionists (or even to anyone with a basic background in physics or chemistry).  The 2nd law of thermodynamics states that in a *closed system*, energy will dissapate (ie. entropy). The earth, however, isn't a closed system since we receive a ton of energy from the sun (if life existed on earth without the sun (or some other energy source) then that would be a violation of the law).

I'm not bringing this up to start a debate on creationism, but this bit of pseudo-science has been abused so much in the past couple of years that people have begun to repeat it as a fact, rather than a misunderstanding of the laws.

chromed

I doubt he's linked to this forum... my mother saw him before I ever tried the forums and her first time visiting them was the other day in responce to this topic. She sent me these specific things to reply to:

Julia - She thought the boy was around 8, dark hair, dark eyes and she has seen him many times, but alwas with a multicolored striped shirt.

David - She's also seen the hole in the shirt of the dark man.

As for MIB connections, most MIB experiences I've heard of (granted, I've never had one) seem like modern versions of the dweller at the threshold experiences (I have had those). Given the fact that he's non-threatening, I don't think that they're related.

Among those who've seen him, are there any obvious correspondances? Geographic location (I don't believe my mother didn't start seeing him until they moved to Arkansas), ancestry, anything? And David,  I'd really like to hear any theories you have on this guy.

chromed

Though I'm a little behind, I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the subject.

I respectfully disagree with some of what Frater said. First of all, evoked enties are not neccessarily the most dangerous of attacks. There are a host of things a person can do to another person magickally that, cerimonial or not, can kill them or at least reduce them to a gibbering idiot who doesn't know who or what they are, and more important, are very hard to defend against.  Evoking demons to do the job is actually the easy way out... they do all the hard work, you just pay the price (or don't, depending on how you do it... in my experience though, nothing's free).  And you don't have to be a magister templi to evoke... rank amatuers get themselves in trouble with all the time.

You asked about when can you attack someone else magickally and not expect repercussions... I'd liken it to wondering when can you walk up and punch someone and not expect reprocussions? The answer is: you can't. Actions have consequences (non-action has it's price too). Don't get me wrong: if you think it's worthy fighting for, then by all means jump in and bloody the guy's nose (unless your magickal tradition and training dictate that you can't). Personally, I occassionally like to think of myself as karma in action Mostly, though, I'm just protecting me and mine. No soldier goes into battle expecting to be invunerable, no matter how righteous the cause, and the same holds true with magick. I also wouldn't worry too much about being a LHPer. Frankly, in my experience,  LHP is a label applied by high-minded, self-righteous individuals to anyone who disagrees with them (same goes for the whole White Brotherhood/Black Lodges deal, imo). Typically, the bigger the ego, the quicker they are to label you. Of course, I could just be a black brother trying to seduce you to the dark side... muhahahhahaha!

All kidding aside, if you're really worried about the karmic implications of attacking someone, then simply bind them so they can't hurt anyone, or at least lack the motivation to. There are plenty of sources on what do do and how to do it, so I'll leave as an exercise to the reader to figure a way out.

chromed

I just thought I'd add that while I've not seen the man, my mother has seen him many times, and in a normal waking state, and in multiple locations. She described him as a tall man in a western-style duster and old (1800's era) clothes. He never approached, just watched and walked on. What was interesting is that the last time she saw him (mid-2000 I think) he was with a small boy (I believe she said he was wearing a striped shirt). Shortly there after I was visited by a young boy that woke me up from a dream and then ducked under my bed (also was a sleep paralysis episode). At the time, I lived 700 miles away from my parents and didn't even know my mom was having these kinds of experiences. In fact, we didn't put it together until almost a year later when we were talking about something else, and I mentioned the little boy, and she told me about the man. We've just written it off as possibly an ancestor or something (we both get visits from those from time to time), but in seeing this thread, I've now got reconcider. I'd love to hear any further thoughts or theories on this guy.

chromed

Joe,

  What Nita described will protect you quite well in most cases from general unpleasentness, even if you've never had any real experience setting something like this up. Particularly relavent is the idea of physically anchoring the shield (like to the 4 rocks) . I've also heard of another technique invovling anchoring the shield to a single rock and bury the rock under a newly planted tree. The idea there is that the tree becomes part of the physical part of the shield, and becomes a living guardian. Of course, if you live someplace with four seasons, you might want to make sure the tree is an evergreen or the like.

  However, if someone wants to get to you, they still can, no matter what type of shield you have up. Goes along the same lines that if someone can build it, somelese can break it... or just sidestep it. For example, if someone has a good, strong link to you (ie. something like your hair/blood/clothing/etc), that kind of shield isn't going to do a whole lot.

  I have to believe that the number of persons actually suffering from magical attack out there is pretty small (though this board seems to have it's share), so chances are most people will never have to deal with a magical attack from another person. My personal opinion is that if you are under attack, you're best option is to fight it head on, be a warrior and learn some tradition of magic to defend yourself and yours with.

  You also asked the difference between a sheild and a banishing, so I figure I'll throw my two cents in on this too. IMO, the purpose of a shield is block/disrupt maleific links and attempts create such links. The theory being that magic has to have a "thread" between to people to work, and the better the connection, the better the results of the magic. BRs, on the other hand, deal with removal of general classes of energies from the micro-or-macrocosm. BRs can remove entities, but they work by removing the energy the entity is using to manifest with.  So, to my way of thinking, BRs and shields are very different. Oh, and a LBRP isn't really going to do you a whole lot of good anyway, at least not on this plane. The symbolism of the pentagram is that of the microcosm... things messing with you during your waking/non-astral hours are probably dealing with you on a macrocosmic level, and would have to be banished with the same (once again, in my ever-so-humble opinion).

chromed

Fenris,

  I'm very familiar with the light-flash and cracking sound you mentioned. I've noticed that during particularly energetic meditation or trance work, I can "see" a light getting brighter and brighter, even though there are no lights on or outside light sources. Most of the time this light increase is pretty gradual (flare up over a period of 30 secs or so) but some times it happens so fast, it's like a lightning flash (and is often accompanied by a loud crack like thunder, or a car backfire).

   I doubt it's anything malefic... I've been doing cm for a while and work in pretty well warded space, so if something is slipping through just to cause lightning flashes... well, it'd appear to be a relatively stupid entity. My personal theory (and it's just my *theory*) is that the flashes and light are related to the 3rd eye and it's corresponding chakra. The flashes for me are often accompanied by periods of increased "astral sight"... things like spontaneously seeing auras, seeing little flittering buggers just out of the corner of my eye, and even increased scrying abilities. It may be something akin to growth pangs for the 3rd eye... I dunno. "Seeing" stuff has never really been my forte in this arena.

   One suggestion... if it's becoming a problem, maybe this can help: I've noticed I only get the quck flashes when I'm not paying attention. If I'm looking for the growing light, then it grows in a much more controlled manner.  I typically use it as a catalyst to deepen my trance, but your mileage may vary. RB may have some NEW related insite into this as well.

chromed

Winged Wolf,
  Mathmatics show atleast the possiblility for diminsions to be non-discreet (ie. not only might there be a 4th and 5th and 6th dim, but also a 3.2th diminsioun, 4.321 diminision, etc). So an interesting flatland-esqe question is what would an 3.1th diminsional entity look and act like in a 3d world? They would certainly be more closely related to 3d entities than 4d entities, but might exhibit some unusual charateristics.

chromed

Another great source for instructions on the LBRP is the internet... just search with that as the keyword in the search engine of your choice. Or, just check out:

http://w3.one.net/~browe/pentagram%20ritual.htm

Probably one of my favorite descriptions of it (beats DMKs rather mechanical version imo).

chromed