Messages

Peace Mustardseed,

You said, "...many Muslims are very ignorant about what the Koran and the Hadith actually teaches."  Yes, this is true.  And because of this, many Muslims are being manipulated to committing un-Islamic acts within the Arab world.  Which reminds me of something we discussed earlier; you said, "Islam runs the Middle East, and the result is chaos."  I countered your argument by saying that very few of the Middle Eastern nations are actually in a state of chaos - many of which are successful, productive, independent nations pioneering in the sciences.  I would like to add to this by stating that there are approximately 220 million Arabs in the world, of that number I estimate about 150 million of them are Muslim.  That's 150 million Arab Muslims in comparison to the 1.6 billion Muslims world wide.  I'm sure you can predict where this is going.

You also said, "I need not show you the horrendous clips from Youtube, where the same teachers encourage such atrocities. Yet in the Um ma among Muslims in the west we are told that Islam is a religion of peace. Who is right?"

Look for a moment, at those who are committing those atrocities.  Ask yourself what they practice.  Your first answer will be Islam - but I will ask you again, what do they practice?  Over the past century there has been a 'spawning' of various new Islamic sects, Wahabbism, Salafism, and Qutbism just to name a few.  All of these sects account for less than 5% of the Islamic Umma but their actions speak far louder than their numbers.  In fact, those actions are so evident that the ignorant buy into the notion that the face of Islam is Wahabbism, Salafism, Qutbism, etc.

Let's restate your question.  "Who is right, the followers of the five original Islamic Schools, or the followers of these new recently formed schools?"  But that's like asking, "Who is right, the believers of Christianity or the believers of Judaism?"  I'm sure both sides will argue to their deaths that they are correct.  In any case, logic is the one determining factor for any rational human being.  Just as, logically, it does not make sense that if a man where to kill your mother he would be forgiven by Jesus without getting your forgiveness first; logically, it doesn't make sense that a Muslim is permitted to kill civilians during warfare when God specifically tells us otherwise in the Qur'an.  In both these cases, the 'believer' is following blind faith irrespective to authentic scriptural context and individual morality.

Who is right?  I'll ask you that question.  Who is right, God or Man?  Everyone knows the Hadith are written by men; but the Qur'an, that is from God.  The Qur'an does not teach any Muslim to kill those who leave Islam, therefore that is what you should believe - that is what's 'right.'  The Qur'an allows self-defense but forbids any other form of violence - that is what you should believe, what is 'right.'

When you mingle with the various scholars, especially those who bring innovation to the faith, then you become confused as to who is 'right.'  But when any bit of doubt or confusion overtakes you, then refer to the Qur'an and everything will be clear.

Thanks for clarifying the Sermon on the Mount for me.  However - using your logic, this leads to obvious questions, questions that I wouldn't normally ask because the answer is clear to me; but I will play you at your own game.  Who is right?  The scholars who perpetrated the Crusade wars or laymen such as you who say violence is strictly forbidden?

Now for more fitting questions.  How can any rational person abolish the concept of self-defense?  Would you really rather your sisters or mother be raped then defend your house from intruders?  Would you really sit down (literally) and allow yourself to be raped and violated rather than defending yourself against such lewdness?  Would a fair and just god preach such a thing?  Does this make sense logically?

Logic would answer all of the above with a strong NO.

Peace, love and light,
Mohamed

[Sura 18 verse 29, "and let him who please disbelieve."]

Mustardseed,

You are arguing a lost cause here buddy.  I've shown you the Word of God, and that Word clearly states that apostates may believe as they please.  In fact God clearly states in Sura 18 verse 29, "and let him who please disbelieve."

Of your quotes, you copy pasted a portion of the Qur'an which in some 'last hope' attempt you believed you could twist and use to support your position.  I will re-type those verses here:

Qur'an Chapter Verses 86 - 90:

86:  How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Messenger was true and clear arguments had come to them; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

87:  (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of Allah and the angels and of men, all together.

88:  Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be respited.

89:  Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

90:  Surely, those who disbelieve after their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.

Tell me Mustard, where in those verses can we find any support of your argument?  Not a single word would support your lies and I am still waiting for you to fulfill the impossible challenge I bestowed upon you.

You know, I had an old friend visit me today.  I told him about our discussions and he wanted to read some of my replies to you.  Sure enough, we found this reply of yours.  At the same moment, we saw the complete ignorance in your reply.  To Muslims, your argument looks like this:

Mustardseed:  "Did you know that Muslims believe clouds are purple?"
Muslim:          "This is laughable on so many levels!  I tell you, the clouds are grey."
Mustardseed:  "No you are wrong, you believe they are purple!"
Muslim:          "No, look here - the book says they are grey."
Mustardseed:  "No!  Why do you anger me so!!  You believe they are grey!"
Muslim:          "You are funny.  My book doesn't say they are grey and I would like you to find proof otherwise, but indeed your book does!  Did you know that - how do you feel about that?"
Mustardseed:  "[No answer]  I'm going to ignore your book and show you the history, that some four of your people believe they are purple!"
Muslim:          "You, Mustardseed, are pathetic."

Why is it that you continue to argue a lie?  Do you believe that if you push it long enough people will start believing it?  Truly this is a mischievous thing you do.

Qur'an Chapter 4 Verse 82 reads:

"Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy."

There is not a single sane Muslim who believes Hadith is the word of God.  Hadith are simply the histories of what passed.  Because those were oral histories you will find many contradictions between the Hadith and the Qur'an.  Therefore, any Hadith that contradicts the Qur'an is false.

Furthermore, any Hadith that states an action or a statement, of the Prophet (s) or his household (as), contradicts with the Qur'an is also false.  You simply stated excerpts from 6 very contradictory Hadith, which disagree with the Word of God and you want me to believe they are true?  Or perhaps you want others to believe they are true?  What daemon or ill gotten spirit has possessed you Mustard?  Indeed you are among those who are astray!

But to calm the 'crying child,' as it were, I will answer your question.  What gives me the edge over Zakir Naik and others is the Word of God.  For any sane and logically thinking Muslim, this is more than enough.  Unfortunately, I can't say the same for radical individuals hell-bent on spreading lies.

You still haven't answered my question Mustard.  You seem to want to prove this point so badly as if it were the Holy Grail in your un-just crusade, yet your own book teaches those very lies.  In case you skipped them, I will re-type them here:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

6:  If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7:  Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8:  Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9:  But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10:  And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

As you can see, an apostate of Christianity [The OT is considered a part of the Word in Christianity, but you already knew that] must be stoned to death.  Stoned to Death!  What a painful way to die.  But there's more, just incase you try to refute this.

Matthew 5:17:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Deuteronomy 13:18:

"When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God."

Indeed I have shown many free thinking minds on this forum; minds which are open to truth, logic, and common sense - that the sayings of Mustardseed are false, and that his crusade is un-just.  In order to defend his faith, he feels the need to spread lies - both his tongue and pen wicked and evil.  Words can not express the pity I feel for you Mustardseed; Insha'Allah [God willing] you will come to see the truth.

Peace, love and light,
Mohamed

[not]

Further proof from the Qur'an that leaving Islam is not punishable by death:

"And say: The truth is from your Lord, so let him who please believe, and let him who please disbelieve; surely We have prepared for the iniquitous a fire, the curtains of which shall encompass them about; and if they cry for water, they shall be given water like molten brass which will scald their faces; evil the drink and ill the resting-place. [Qur'an 18:29]"

Peace, love and light,
Mohamed

If the murderous tribalism in Iraq isn't "Muslim v.s Muslim" violence -- then what is it?

Muslims killing one another because of their denomination.  The tribalism has nothing to do with Sunni, Shia differences - although the media will promote that ideology.

muslims kill each other all the time

Perfect example of media mind corruption and brain washing.  Do not relate tribalism in Iraq to Muslim vs. Muslim violence.

Yes, that would be true if we were talking about one on one combat.  In the case of war though, we are discussing the issue of armies approaching your people ready to kill them.  In this case, defense involves a lot more than just a few individuals.  The nation as a whole can either defend itself or have its population murdered/raped and conquered.  Defense is the only logical conclusion.

Perhaps your confusion comes from a lack of understanding Islamic rules of war.  The rules are simply, only attack those who attack you - meaning military men who would face you in combat.  Never attack civilians, and do not cause damage to even the leaves of trees - the conflict is between you (as in the nation), and those who fight you and nothing more.  I don't see how you can consider this murder - the aggressors are dying because they attacked you and you are defending yourself.  Of course, you can always opt out of defending yourself and then getting raped/murdered/mutilated, you and your people - that is totally your choice (assuming you were the leader of our hypothetical nation).

Peace, love and light,
Mohamed

Sharpe,

I am not sure what you are asking.  Muslims don't 'kill' the unbelievers; Muslims 'slay' those who start wars against them.  The ruling on physical Jihad is if in a time of peace, a nation wages war against you preemptively or is the first to attack you, then you have the right to defend yourself - simple as that.  This does not contradict any of the Ten Commandments because murder is not taking place on the Muslim side - only on the side of the aggressors.

Did I answer your question?  If not please elaborate and I will try to answer it as best I can.

Peace, love and light,
Mohamed


**Edit**

Just because someone is Muslim doesn't necessarily mean they will go to heaven.  Islam differs from Christianity in this aspect.  According to Christianity, as long as one believes in Jesus they shall go to heaven - Islam teaches that it is a persons good deeds that take them to heaven.  Good deeds are encouraged while bad deeds are shunned and avoided.  Therefore, almost everything we do in this world affects our place in the afterlife.

Also unlike Trinitarian Christianity, Islam teaches that deifying Jesus or anyone/thing other than the One God [The God of Abraham (as)] carries an overwhelmingly heavy sin (extremely bad deed).

I hope I've answered your question.

["They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. [Qur'an 2:217]"]

Mustardseed,

"According to WIKIPEDIA this is not correct. Please explain what gives you the right to make such a statement when the accepted scholars and Islamic schools say otherwise"

Please explain what gives you the right to talk about Islamic jurisprudence when you know nothing about it - other than what is found on Wikipedia.  Because of your self-proclaimed sincerity (which I still doubt), I will forgive this and show you why that quote can not possibly be accurate.

"Al-Shafi'i interpreted the verse [Qur'an 2:217] as adducing the main evidence for the death penalty in Qur'an."

To start, why should I take anything Al-Shafi'i says?  You promote this man as if he was the sole representative to the Muslim faith.  It is true that one of the five schools does indeed follow him, but even they dispute over his contradictory teachings.  But that obviously isn't enough for you is it Mustard?

Let's look at the Qur'anic verse in question:

"They ask you concerning the sacred month about fighting in it. Say: Fighting in it is a grave matter, and hindering (men) from Allah's way and denying Him, and (hindering men from) the Sacred Mosque and turning its people out of it, are still graver with Allah, and persecution is graver than slaughter; and they will not cease fighting with you until they turn you back from your religion, if they can; and whoever of you turns back from his religion, then he dies while an unbeliever-- these it is whose works shall go for nothing in this world and the hereafter, and they are the inmates of the fire; therein they shall abide. [Qur'an 2:217]"

There is nothing in this about killing apostates.  The verse clearly states that if one where to leave Islam then when they die, they will die unbelievers and in Hell shall they abide.  It is crystal clear that apostasy does not equal death and any Muslim who claims otherwise deviates from what the Prophet taught.  Yes, certain branches do deviate - such branches as the Wahabbi and Salafi, but their numbers are small and their beliefs widely shunned in the Muslim world.

"Is the Koran and the Haditdh open for individual interpretation, or does a Religious counsel or government decide what is proper action."

Qur'an is always open for individual interpretation.  Islam is not the Jehovah's Witness where the watch tower group are the sole interpreters of God's word.

"In the case of Sharia, it appears that a country under sharia rule, do indeed have to obey the leaders or scholars.  How does that apply to a Muslim living among the Um ma in a western country, who's school of thought or doctrine does such a person follow and adhere to."

How do Catholics adhere to the teachings of the Pope while living in others countries?  You are asking common sense questions Mustard.

------------------------

Okay buddy.  I didn't want to do this but you've repeatedly attempted to spread lies about my faith.  Now I will show you as well as the others on this board the lies you've brought forth found clearly in your own Bible.  Yes, indeed Christianity is the faith that teaches death to apostates.

Before I do this though, I have a challenge for you.  I challenge you to find a single verse in the Holy Qur'an that teaches the punishment for apostasy is death.  Now let's take a peek at the Bible shall we?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

6:  If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7:  Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8:  Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9:  But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10:  And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Wow, this is crystal clear.  An apostate of Christianity must be stoned to death.  Stoned to Death!  What a painful way to die.  But there's more, just incase you try to refute this.

Matthew 5:17:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

Deuteronomy 13:18:

"When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God."

So I ask you, Mustardseed, how could you possibly sit here and spread lies about Islam while it is indeed your faith that teaches the lies you spread forth?  What hypocrisy is this within you?

Peace Companions,

DH,

Did you not see the irony in your post before you hit submit?  You state that I 'seem' not to be aware of what Christian means yet here you are 'seeming' not to understand who a follower of the Prophet Muhammad (s) is.

Granted, you are correct in stating that not all Christians are 'jackasses' as you put it, but you failed to mention that I too said that.  You simply pointed out much of what I said disregarding context – though you aren't alone, many people constantly make that mistake.  If you had read further as I'm sure you have, you would know that I followed up by stating "...and might I add, not all Christians are like Mustard - many are a peace loving people."  Or do you simply wish to ignore this?  What else do you ignore when you critique someone?

You made a clear distinction between a 'jackass' Christian, and a 'true' Christian yet you lumped all Muslims into one category.  Those violent protests were un-Islamic and nothing can be used to support them aside from the twisted lies of those who'd have you believe otherwise.  Not to mention that the amount of protesters in comparison to the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world today is insignificant at most.

As for your statement about implications towards Jesus (as), I won't even reply to this because you and I both know that a Muslim will not attack a prophet and that I am not questioning my motives for what I said.

Mustardseed,

You said, "I had to take a few days to cool down enough to write you this note."  My intention was not to hurt you, friend.  I offer my sincere apologies for the distress I may have caused you.

Now to address your concerns.  Yes, it would seem that there are profound differences between our faiths – but if we dabble in these differences then there will always be conflict between us.  There are more similarities between Islam and Christianity than are differences.  But for this one difference, let us address it logically.

Let us assume for a moment that every Christian on Earth were to adhere to the Word 100%.  Now, let us say that war had been waged against every Christian by a ruthless force.  The logical conclusion would be that every Christian will be murdered/raped/mutilated.  Would a just and honorable God preach that such un-defensive death is not only desired but commanded?  There is no logic in such a command.  The logical conclusion to such an attack would be to take up arms in defense of the innocent.  There is not confusion in Islam; nothing is commanded which doesn't hold certainty and logic behind it.

Now for your questions:

1.  What is a Muslim to do regarding those who leave the faith. Is it true that such an act is punishable by death?

No

2.  If a Muslim is expected to return hostility with hostility, is it only required where an invasion of Muslim land is at stake, like Iraq, or is it also accepted where the concern is a desecration of the faith the Prophet (pbuh) or any other Islamic Holy tenant of faith.

This is a good question.

In Islam we have three types of Jihad, a Jihad against ones self, a verbal Jihad, and a physical Jihad.  The first is one in which a person struggles against his/her self from the sinful desires which they have acquired through their environment or any other negative aspect of their life, for example laziness.  The third is a physical fight against oppression and transgression. I feel that warring a nation over the acts of its individuals does not fit into the ruling behind physical Jihad.

The second form of Jihad, the verbal Jihad is the most likely righteous form of Jihad against the desecration of the faith by individuals.  So to answer your question, I would say, "No, it is unacceptable to violently fight against those who desecrate the faith."

Peace, love and light,
Mohamed

P.S.  There are many aspects of my life that prevented me from responding sooner and I stated clearly at the beginning of this thread that I am not responsible for educating anyone and that if I do not reply it is because I am too busy.  I will re-state that here:

"I will attempt to answer questions as they are brought to me, but it is not my responsibility to educate anyone.  If I do not reply it is not because Muslims have no answer for your particular question, it is because I as an individual am too busy to reply or I simply do not know the answer and do not wish to invest time into it.  For such questions, I would advise you to seek guidance from a learned Muslim scholar in your area (they are everywhere, even in the USA) - which is what you should be doing if you where seriously considering learning about Islam anyway."

[In this instance of abrogation [which really isn't abrogation, just like my previous argument with alcohol] there is no contradiction and bringing the various verses together does not create confusion. This is once again a fantastic example of how the various Qur'anic verses complement one another perfectly without creating contradictions or confusion.]

Peace Mustardseed,

You know, my girlfriend is completely against us having these discussions; she says I'm wasting my time and then distracts me from you - I am in agreement with her, but her distractions are quite pleasant; so I'll keep this up for a while.  I had actually almost forgotten about this but luckily I just completed my afternoon prayer and you came to mind.  I'll get right into it.

So, how did I know that this was the direction you were moving towards?  Oh yes, I've come across this argument before!  Interestingly by someone aiming to create a religious debate in which said person was hoping for a victory on their side.  Thankfully, I have come across this several times in the past and have saved my response (how convenient, I knew it would come in handy).

Before I begin, I would like to comment on the verses you provided me as evidence of abrogation in the Bible.  Unlike what I teach below [About your question on abrogation], your verses do contradict previous revelations and cause confusion.  Because in one instance your god talks about an eye for an eye, yet in latter verses discusses something completely different which doesn't complement former revelations.  Not unlike John Kerry's constant changing of opinion.  Though, your faith does preach three gods which are all a part of one - perhaps the fault of this abrogation is due to one of the three passing a ruling without the others knowledge, then another one passes their own ruling which contradicts the previous revelation (Yes I know Jesus is the word, I'm only trying to help your case here by providing suggestions).

Now let us discuss your concerns, again assuming you are here to learn about Islam.

First, let's discuss your so called verses of violence then we will get into abrogation.

Surah 9:5 reads, "slay the idolaters [pagans] wherever ye find them..."

Well, that certainly supports the theory that the Quran preaches violence-unless, of course, one is inclined to study context. Those who quote such passages often fail to provide any context behind the verse, such as in this case, where the verse just previous explicitly forbids committing any violence against those who keep their peace with you.

Surah 9:4 reads, "Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty)."

Surah 9:5 was revealed after the Meccans broke the peace treaty they signed with Muhammad [pbuh].  Now let's discuss that treaty.

In Islam, every Muslim must travel to Mecca to perform pilgrimage at least once in their life time unless they are physically unable to do so [if you don't and you die before you get the chance to, there are ways for your family to clear you of that burden].  The Holy Prophet [pbuh] gathered ten thousand believers and made his way to Mecca [hostile at the time] un-armed to perform the pilgrimage.  The Meccans refused them.  Instead they came to an agreement, a peace treaty whereupon the Muslims can perform their pilgrimage at a later time and hostilities from Mecca will end.  The Muslims then returned to Medina without performing the pilgrimage.

The Meccans didn't uphold their end of the bargain and soon after led a pre-emptive attack against the Muslims by literally slaughtering a tribe allied with them [Muslims].  Now Muhammad [pbuh] refused to act in any matter without clear guidance from Allah, so this is when those verses [9:5 and the ones before and after it] were revealed to him.  The Angel Gabriel came to Muhammad [pbuh] and relayed the message of Allah to him and the Muslims armed themselves and conquered Mecca with very little effort.  This was the historic moment when Muhammad [pbuh] entered the Kabaa and destroyed the 300 pagan gods that the Arabs used to worship.  At this point the Meccan women and children prepared themselves to be sold into slavery or raped, but Muhammad [pbuh] told them that they are free individuals and invited them to Islam.  Many converted, and many remained pagans - but one thing was clear that day, hostilities from Mecca ended and Muslims were free to perform pilgrimage.

When read in context, those verses are not violent; instead they instruct men in such matters.  The Qur'an is a complete guide given to mankind - now we (Muslims) know that if we were in a situation where a nation prematurely dissolves a peace treaty with us, we have the right to wage war against them.  Now, you might be asking exactly when a Muslim nation can wage war.  Simple, let's look at Surah 2 verses 190 - 193.

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.  And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.  But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.  And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."  [Qur'an 2: 190 - 193]

Let's look at what these verses are saying:

- "Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities."

Muslims are not allowed to start any wars unless they are first attacked.

- "And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers."

You are attacked, so what are you allowed to do?  Sit at home and be murdered while watching your loved ones be murdered and/or raped?  Qur'an is a complete guidance to mankind.  If you are attacked buddy, go out and kill the enemy where ever they may be - why?  Because persecution is worse than slaughter.

- "But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.  And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors."

Hey look at that!  If they stop attacking you, then you stop attacking them; fair enough?  Don't take advantage of their weakness and conquer them UNLESS they keep fighting you, then keep fighting them until there is no more persecution and they are all Muslim [then there wouldn't be anymore hostilities would there?]  But if they stop, then leave them alone.  Remember, they started it in the first place or else there wouldn't all be this violence.

If humanity followed the rules of God placed within the Qur'an then there would be no wars... period.

Now for the abrogation you are concerned with, there should be no cause for concern.  The verses which seem to justify violence in reality do the opposite.  They teach man how to end violence that is brought against them.  Yes, in essence you are fighting violence with violence, but unfortunately that's the way the world works.  If someone where to come up to you and begin hurting you, bruising you, and shedding your blood are you going to fall to the ground, let it happen and possibly get killed in the process?  I would hope not.

The peaceful verses you refer to are ways in which we learn patience in the face of intolerance and racism - but never were the Muslims in any position in which war was waged against them [because they had no nation or land to defend at that time].  The Qur'an doesn't teach men to kill others because they are racist or intolerant and you will not find anything close to that in the Qur'an.  In this instance of abrogation [which really isn't abrogation, just like my previous argument with alcohol] there is no contradiction and bringing the various verses together does not create confusion.  This is once again a fantastic example of how the various Qur'anic verses complement one another perfectly without creating contradictions or confusion.

Unfortunately though, your verses do contradict previous revelations and cause confusion.  Because in one instance your god talks about an eye for an eye, yet in latter verses discusses something completely different which doesn't complement former revelations.  Not unlike John Kerry's constant changing of opinion.  Though, your faith does preach three gods which are all a part of one - perhaps the fault of this abrogation is due to one of the three passing a ruling without the others knowledge, then another one passes their own ruling which contradicts the previous revelation (Yes I know Jesus is the word, I'm only trying to help your case here by providing suggestions).

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

P.S.  No, Classical Arabic is not a completely different language than Modern Arabic.  A person fluent in Modern Arabic [or even not so fluent] can read and understand Qur'anic Arabic with little difficulty.

Dear Muhamad

I will try my best to take your suggestions into consideration. I do have a few questions that I hope you will be able to elaborate on.

1 Having read the Koran extensively over the last years and having researched the doctrine of Aborgation, I would like your take on this issue. Aborgation, to substitute one sura for another, appears to be a valid doctrine and certainly one that is used my Islamic Koran scholars throughout the world. According to this doctrine the later (timewise) command given is supposed to substitute any earlier command, making it easier to find the will of Allah, in a given area. 

2 If the Koran is only understood by those who read and understand CA, how do the masses of muslims who do not command this language comprehend the text. Do you yourself speak or understand Ca? If not how do you feel your understanding of the text benefit?

For now these are my questions, if you have any questions about Christianity I shall be glad to reply and try my best to answer them as much as I have the knowledge.

Regards Mustardseed

Peace Mustardseed,

I appreciate your gesture towards a productive discussion.  Although the questions you ask have been used by Christians in the attempt of conversion, I will take them from you as sincere inquiries - after all, who am I to judge?

Your questions are legitimate and I thank you for not bombarding me with 2,000 verses that you would like interpreted ASAP.  On to your questions.

1)  Abrogation

-  It is indeed true that what was revealed later must be taken into consideration above what was revealed earlier.  Now, given what was revealed by God to humanity within the Qur'an, abrogation poses no difficulties because issues only arise when the previous command contradicts the later one or when the two commands brought beside one another make no sense.  For the sake of our readers and yourself, I will show the classic example of abrogation within the Qur'an - the banning of alcoholic drinks .

First, the following verse was revealed:

Qur'an 4:43 - "O you who believe! Do not go near prayer when you are intoxicated until you know (well) what you say..."

Then, this one:

Qur'an 2:219 - "They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit."

And finally:

Qur'an 5:90 - "O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper."

As you can see, 4:43 does not ban alcohol - instead it tells humanity not to pray while intoxicated.  2:219 doesn't fully ban the consumption of Alcohol but it is weaning the Arabs, who loved intoxicants (possibly more than the Irish ), off of the strong drinks.  Finally, when the desert Arabs were ready to give up alcohol (after much great faith had been built within them), 5:90 was revealed and alcohol was totally banned.

Now, neither of the abovementioned verses contradict or come into conflict with one another.  4:43 is a commandment to not pray while drunk.  So, if I were to drink lots of alcohol right now, I could not pray until I am able to understand what I am saying.  2:219 states that there is a great sin in alcohol but also some profit - although the sin is far greater than the profit.  So, for those people who are able to profit one way or another from alcohol they should understand that their sin is greater than their profit - if they profit a lot, then their sin is just that much more intense than their profit.  Finally, 5:90 states clearly to avoid alcohol altogether - but in a sense 2:219 already implied that.

Some people feel that 2:219 and 5:90 contradict one another seeing that there is profit in Satan's handwork.  Clearly there is profit in Satan's handwork or else people wouldn't give themselves up to prostitution or become hitmen and murder others for a living.  Truly there is profit in selling alcohol, especially here in the USA within cities that harbor major universities - no one can deny that.  But again, as 2:219 states the sin of alcohol consumption and/or profiting from alcohol is far greater than that of the profit made by it.

So you see, indeed we have abrogation in Islam - but it poses no problems because the previous verses line up wonderfully, beautifully and logically to the later verses.

Now I have a question for you, Mustardseed.  How do you feel about abrogation in the Bible, the likes of which do contradict each other as well as bring up difficulties?  I shall give you an example - note, this is an example - I am not questioning you on these verses but showing that abrogation is not limited to Islam:

First the following verses were revealed:

The Bible, Leviticus Book 11 Verses 7 & 8 KJV - "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.  Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you."

Then later (much later) the following:

The Bible, Mark Book 7 Verses 18 - 20 KJV - "And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man."

A little confusing I know, but here is another version of the Bible which is a bit more clear:

"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this. Jesus declared all foods "clean.") Mark 7:18-20 NIV

And another version:

He said to them, "Then do you also fail to understand? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) Mark 7:18-20 NRSV

Here is an example of abrogation in which the latter verse contradicts and comes into conflict with the former.  And to complicate things further we have:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." Matthew 5:17 KJV

And, on top of this we have (last one, I don't want to overwhelm anyone):

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" Deuteronomy 6:4 KJV

Here we have several cases of abrogation which clearly confuse the followers of divinity in Christ (Trinitarian Christians).

Again you do not need to respond to the verses I have posed - my questioning is NOT on these verses but as to your take on abrogation in Christianity (notice I am asking you the same question you asked me).

2)  I feel I have sufficiently answered this question already.  If not, then do let me know exactly what you doubt.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

First question asked by Mustardseed:

Do you believe that in order to fully understand the content of the Koran and the Hadith one must understand Arabic?

My reply:

I'm going to fill you in on a little secret.  At least, it is a secret to many Christians.  I have recently taken up Hebrew as a fourth language - one because I wanted to read the Bible in its native tongue and two, my girlfriend is Jewish.  You see Mustard; the Bible becomes so much more wondrous in Hebrew than when it is read in English or any other translation at that.  Of course it can be understood in English, but to fully understand the jest of it all - that requires knowledge in Hebrew.  Much like the Qur'an; the Qur'an can be read and understood in any translation - but to fully understand what is revealed to mankind, it must be read in its native tongue, Arabic.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

This thread was created to move the on-going discussion between Mustardseed and I from the Understanding Christianity thread to a more relevant area.  Although the topic of the other thread has changed considerably, I hope Mustardseed and other Christians will persist in answering the concerns posed by Jeehad.

Mind you, this thread is designed for productive discussions - any reply or question that is aimed at sparking a debate will go unanswered and runs the risk of being flamed.  With that said, here are some questioning guidelines for you to follow.

Good Questions:

-  I don't quite understand such and such verse in the Qur'an, would you elaborate for me?
-  I learned in my Church that Muslims believe in such and such, is that true?  If so how can you believe such a thing?
-  I read on so and so site that there is such and such error in the Qur'an, is this true?  Can you prove otherwise?
-  I see plenty of women in the Middle East covering their hair/skin/anything visible to the eye, is this really taught in Islam?  Could you prove your stance by showing exactly where it is taught (or taught against)?

Bad Questions:

-  How do you view the current Israeli / Palestinian conflict?
-  Do you believe in sharia law?
-  Jesus is god and will forgive your sins if you accept him (yeah it's not a question but God only knows what extremists view as questions).
-  If you are a US citizen, how would you feel if such and such law system of such and such nation where imposed on you?

As you can see, the good questions are related to a religious dialogue where as the bad questions are aimed towards gathering information about personal beliefs and/or picking a fight.

I will attempt to answer questions as they are brought to me, but it is not my responsibility to educate anyone.  If I do not reply it is not because Muslims have no answer for your particular question, it is because I as an individual am too busy to reply or I simply do not know the answer and do not wish to invest time into it.  For such questions, I would advise you to seek guidance from a learned Muslim scholar in your area (they are everywhere, even in the USA) - which is what you should be doing if you where seriously considering learning about Islam anyway.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

Oh cut the crap Mustard; this is a discussion forum not a boxing ring.  Besides, I have no qualms with discussing (note, I said discussing, not debating) religion - unless of course the other party of the discussion is (are) a fanatical Christian/Muslim/Jew/Pagan or whatever else they may be.  The arguments of religious extremists carry the least bit of significance with me.

You have made it quite clear, my dear friend, that your mind is closed, your eyes blind, your voice mute, and your ears deaf to the reality all around us.  You claim the Mid East is one giant war zone yet you choose to ignore that the only areas of the Mid East with any significant "war zone status" is Palestine, Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan.  You claim that the Middle East is backward yet you ignore the innovations brought to the world by the UAE as well as the great technological strives in modern engineering.  When such basic things are ignored and even denied how then do you expect me to take anything that comes out of your brain with any significance?

You also stated that Islam rules the Middle East and the result is chaos yet you choose to ignore the fact that Islam ruled a great deal of the 'then known world' and the result was scientific and technological innovation the likes of which humanity had never seen before.

Islam has, and still continues to positively influence the world we live in.  Only when extremists (not just Islamic) put their hands in the mix do certain small rogue groups form and/or gain strength, and then with the help of our media do people like you become de-educated (and even equate Islam as a whole with what is presented to you).  If you want to learn more about Islam Mustard, then first look within you and remove the dark tar that fills your being.  Then you need to start asking questions that are productive to your growth and knowledge in and of Islam.  I'll give you a few examples.

Good Questions:

-  I don't quite understand such and such verse in the Qur'an, would you elaborate for me?
-  I learned in my Church that Muslims believe in such and such, is that true?  If so how can you believe such a thing?
-  I read on so and so site that there is such and such error in the Qur'an, is this true?  Can you prove otherwise?
-  I see plenty of women in the Middle East covering their hair/skin/anything visible to the eye, is this really taught in Islam?  Could you prove your stance by showing exactly where it is taught (or taught against)?

Bad Questions:

-  How do you view the current Israeli / Palestinian conflict?
-  Do you believe in sharia law?
-  Jesus is god and will forgive your sins if you accept him (yeah it's not a question but God only knows what extremists view as questions).
-  If you are a US citizen, how would you feel if such and such law system of such and such nation where imposed on you?

As you can see, the good questions are related to a religious dialogue where as the bad questions are aimed towards gathering information about personal beliefs and/or picking a fight.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

I on my part see you as rather ignorant and also misguided, and very elitist to say the least. Pompous and self righteous and so on. Let us just agree that we look to each other much the same, and since this is the case lets just leave this very tedious subject and get to the core of the discussion.

Let me ask you a few questions. First a personal one . Are you residing in a Muslim country?

Do you believe that in order to fully understand the content of the Koran and the Hadith one must understand Arabic?

Do you believe in Sharia law?

Regards Mustardseed

Mustardseed,

"Let us just agree that we look to each other much the same"

Why should I agree to this ridiculous statement?  Once again you have proved your intolerance towards my faith.  You see me as an ignorant and rather misguided person yet you do not even know me.  I am far more optimistic towards strangers my friend.  Or is it because I am a Muslim?  Over and over again you give me reasons as to why I should simply wave my hand at your religious ramblings.

I'm going to fill you in on a little secret.  At least, it is a secret to many Christians.  I have recently taken up Hebrew as a fourth language - one because I wanted to read the Bible in its native tongue and two, my girlfriend is Jewish.  You see Mustard; the Bible becomes so much more wondrous in Hebrew than when it is read in English or any other translation at that.  Of course it can be understood in English, but to fully understand the jest of it all - that requires knowledge in Hebrew.  Much like the Qur'an; the Qur'an can be read and understood in any translation - but to fully understand what is revealed to mankind, it must be read in its native tongue, Arabic.

As for your question; do you take me as a fool Mustard?  I've stated in my first post that religious debates are absurd - do not attempt to turn this into a debate; such an attempt is futile.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

Peace Mustardseed,

I find it interesting that you would devote about 25% of your reply in doing what you have clearly denounced - division.  My comment was based purely on a reply which you had made to one of James' comments stating something similar, no other intention was implied or sought after.

I also find it interesting, my dear Mustard, that on one hand you wish to discuss Islam, yet on the other you attempt to provoke me with subtle comments - a tactic well worth the title of Christian.  You see my friend, Islam teaches us to avoid anger.  The Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) stated that humanity should strive for Allah SWT, but if a man becomes angry, he no longer strives for Allah SWT but for himself.  If you wish any intelligent dialogue with a Muslim who follows the path and the word, then you must shed yourself of the intolerance rooted within you - because it is that intolerance that causes you to seek anger to fuel your debates.  This is a perfect example of the peace found within Islam, and the hatred bred amongst Christians (and might I add, not all Christians are like Mustard - many are a peace loving people).

Also, try not to misunderstand Mr. Seed.  I purposely chose to ignore your other threads and religious banter simply because I've encountered it all before.  If faithfreedom and answeringIslam were books, I could say I have read them both cover to cover - several times.  Answering Islam's main problem is their use of translated Arabic for their claims, and the Arabic sources they do provide are obscure and widely unaccepted.  Faith Freedom, unlike most sites which take verses out of context, takes words out of context and then gives them meaning which they do not have.  Just goes to show you how far individuals or groups of individuals are willing to go to discredit what they know is true.

If metaphors are too much for you Mustard, then I shall speak frankly from now on.  I can't help but wonder though; does this also mean that you take the bible literally?

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

Wow, and you wonder why James takes every opportunity to smite you.  I've studied Christianity and know far more about the faith than many Christians do - maybe even more than you.  You've got a lit match and you're looking for fuel.  I've got a soothing balm and I'm looking to calm the heart and open the mind.  Many people would rather dip their hands in fire than in cool soothing water.  What do you have to prove, Mustard, when you claim to be so content with your faith?

Hatred and intolerance is a lit fuel which accepts more fire.  Calm the flame, then ask yourself why you feel the need to prove yourself - and don't try to deny it either, it's as evident as the air we breath.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

P.S.  I don't know you from your old posts.  I know you from a PM which you sent me a long time ago asking me to give you information about Islam.  I think I sent you a link to http://harunyahya.com/ and possibly some other sites.

DebInUSA,

"Jeehad, Islam/Muslims are associated with terrorism/violence because there are thousands of people going around calling themselves Muslims who say they are fighting and killing in the name of Islam."

In essence, you are correct.  There are thousands of people killing in the name of Islam - but could you hold those thousands up against the 1.8 billion Muslims in the world today?  You are taking several grains of sand and comparing them to the whole beach.

"We hear of Muslims killing on a daily basis"

Exactly.  The media is the main reason why you are so misguided when it comes to Islam.

"No, the US does NOT have the fastest growing population of Muslims in the entire world."

Hm.  I'd like to ask you a somewhat personal question...  How long have you been living under that rock nestled deep within that isolated cave you call home?  Hahahah, sorry if that sounds offensive but it just came to mind and I had to ask.  Anyway, here are some articles for you to read and ponder:

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0596/9605013.htm
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/One+nation+under+Allah%3a+Islam+is+the+fastest+growing+religion+in...-a090794905
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an010701-15.html
http://www.themodernreligion.com/assault/rising.html

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

P.S.  I purposely chose to ignore the rest of your post; and I'm sure you know why (If not, then God help you woman).

bjb,

Your words bring a smile to my face.  Anyone who has lived in an authentic Islamic community knows exactly what you are talking about.  If you have any questions about Islam, or any doubts, feel free to PM me and I will reply with the best of my abilities.

Salaam,
Mohamed

Religious debates are absurd.  I am a Muslim because I find peace, serenity, logic and perfection in my faith just as many other persons in different faiths do.

Mustardseed,

I remember a few years ago when you had a deep interest in Islam; I see that has changed.  I would like to make a correction to your reply.  You said:

"Osama Bin Laden is a very good Muslim... strict obedience to Islam, the Koran and the Hadith."

In whose opinion Mustardseed?  The majority of Muslims world wide consider Osama a "munafiq" or hypocrite.  Believe it or not, but the media koolade that we chug down everyday is wrong when it portrays people like those as prominent figures in Islam.  In reality, the fundamental sects of Islam are few and their followers scarce in comparison to the five original schools, namely Ja'afari, Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi, and Hanbali which comprise about 98% of the Muslim population.  Of course, as with any religion, there are fundamentalist individuals in every sect.

I haven't read any of your other posts, namely those which Jeehad claims are offensive towards my faith, nor do I intend to read them.

DebInUSA,

I am going to ignore what you said about the Bible, simply because I do not wish to engage in a religious debate - the outcomes of such things are always the same.  I do wish to correct some errors in your reply though.

"The difference in the Quran and the Bible is that Christians have tens of thousands of manuscripts we can always go back to and check to see if what we have is correct or not.  Muslims have zero manuscripts."

This is false.  In fact, we have a complete intact Qur'an from the Uthmaani Caliphate which dates back to only a few years after the Prophet's death.

"The Quran used to have all kinds of different copies...and I mean totally different Qurans, not just different interpretations of words, until some leader picked out one and decided to burn the others."

A common misconception passed on through answeringislam.com.  Actually most of what you said here can be found on answeringislam.com - I hope you aren't relying on only one source of information.  There where seven different copies of the Qur'an before the Uthmaani Caliphate, the differences between them were merely due to the dialects of the regions in which the Qur'an was recited.  The seven copies are not lost forever, in fact we still have all seven of them and if you would like to do more research you can go ahead and take a look at them for yourself (And I don't mean screenshots on answeringislam.com).  I'm sure you'll conclude that their meanings are exactly the same.  Although I don't completely agree with Uthmaan's decision (burning copies of differing dialects), the end result was favorable as the dialect in which the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) preached the Qur'an is what made it into the official world wide version - in which one of the originals is still intact and is exactly like the Qur'an I have in my house.

"Also, the Quran verses are not even in chronological order.  It is written with the longest or shortest verses first...can't recall which one."

This is ludicrous.  The verses are in chronological order, the chapters are not.  The longer chapters are towards the beginning and the shorter ones towards the end - what does this have to do with anything?

"Why do you think Africa is quickly turning into a Christian country all of a sudden?"

How seriously do you expect anyone to take your words when you believe Africa is a country?

Oh, and one more:

"Pagans actually did have a moon God named Allah, by the way."

This is laughable on so many levels.  If this truly were the case then the pagan Arabs would have had no qualms about converting to Islam.  By the way, where is your archaeological evidence for this claim?

Jeehad,

I haven't read any of the other threads on here and I'm not sure what has gotten you so riled up but I'd like to remind you that conversion is not in our hands, it is a process that occurs within an individual with the help of Allah (SWT).  We can guide by teaching Islam and showing its perfection, logic and beauty but we can not convert anyone.  Attacking another's religion will only anger them and push them away, isolating them from the path; in essence, worsening their ailment.

We are Muslims because we see the perfection of the faith.  Our hearts are humbled and we are content - we have nothing to prove.  Allah (SWT) told mankind:  "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." [2:256]

Teach Islam, and correct any misconceptions others may have.  If they don't want to be a Muslim, that is their own business - the Holy Prophet Muhammad (S) did not force anyone into Islam and neither should we.  He preached the word and mankind listened, and we followed.  Soon Islam will be the largest religion on Earth.

Peace, Love and Light,
Mohamed

PS  One more thing.  Mustardseed said:

"Islam rules the mideast, and the result is chaos."

Actually, Britain toppled the Ottoman Empire and occupied Middle Eastern territories... and the result is chaos.  I'm sure you know all of the historical facts so I won't reiterate them.

I was wondering has anybody seen jesus christ in the astral plane?

I am a non-Christian and I saw Jesus a few times.  He was not some god but just a man, like you and I.

magtar, don't waist your money.

Arcturians - a species in the fictional star trek series know for their clones.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Arcturian+(Star+Trek)

Peace,
Mohamed

the changing of the electrical
charges in protons and neutrons

Neutrons never had an electrical charge to begin with!

in the way that
electrons adhere to each other in photon energy with the molecules

Is this guy serious?  Electrons adhere to each other in photon energy??  Photons are quantized energy packets emitted through electromagnetic radiation.  The only way I can think of that electrons and photons interact is through the photoelectric effect, where a photon tossed at short frequency wavelength impacts an electron on a metallic surface and knocks it off.

This guys needs to get his chemistry and physics together if he wants to attract any followers into his religion or belief, especially if it includes super intelligent animals from another planet.

Frank,

Your posts are very informative!  I feel however that you are mingling technological development with spiritual development.  Yes, over the years we have developed technologically, but can we really say that this is a development of the spirit?  Mystics are frowned upon these days; because there is no concrete scientific evidence of the energy body or the soul then it can't be true.

Frank, because the Qur'an, the Torah, the Bible, and the Bhagavad Gita where written in times past, does not mean we should exclude them from our knowledge base.  These books contain a vast amount of spiritual knowledge, some of which is claimed to have been inspired by the divine.

I believe if one is seeking spiritual development, and has reached a plateau; then perhaps looking towards the past and the spiritual texts of the past are a good way of climbing once again.