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My rational for this... which is just a guess.  LoL

When we "talk", we have to force air out of our lungs, over our vocal cords.
Perhaps we do this so often that we've just come to accept it as the nature of "speaking".

In which case, even in the voice in heads... we still require that air passing over the vocal cords?  I find it incredibly hard to talk in my mind to myself while I'm not breathing... it takes much more concentration and the sentence I am able to do comes out very broken.  IE: Each word has a significant pause between them.

I dunno, just thinking out loud here.

Any other volunteers with data regarding this?

Yep, this has worked to me too, as I've already told you. I also agree with what you're saying here. I sometimes have problems saying some words without breathing or changing my breath. I have tried to talk in my mind without influencing the breathing pattern, it's not that easy, or is it just me? lol

Welcome to AstralPulse!

Some db issues. Everything should be fixed. 

I am kind of late. Been months since I last posted here. I found this thread on google when I was looking for Avers. The site's been down for 2 weeks now and I've got no idea what is going on. Usually this happens when the host is not paid, but I guess he should have noticed it by now. I am still waiting, contacting other admins. There's only an admin I have not talked to, I am trying to find his email and see if he knows anything. If not, then I guess time will tell. I guess, if he hadn't wanted to keep avers anymore, he would have told us, at least, to the staff.

I will let you know if I find anything.  


Sipaman! Oh, where were we?  

Also, if I may, the chat is still on: http://astralviewerslive.tk/
Since more people may run into this page: www.astralvoid.com

Because you are.

also

experience

[too]

Well, I do experience this difference, I think everyone who OOBEs does. I first thought the "I" did not move in meditation until I experienced it there too. Again, I know what I have been experiencing, I know I am not creating the stuff, but moving in the stuff. What you are saying there sounds more like a lucid dream, from which I always get out very soon.

What you call "consciousness" in this case it is the "attention" part of the mind. What I call "consciousness" in this case it is the "I" part of the mind.

I also am talking about the "I" part of the mind.

What you call "consciousness" is not consciousness at all. Consciousness is not just attention. If you keep your attention on an external object your consciousness willl not "merge" with it automatically, just from your attention. You will need will and a lot of concentration, till the two becomes an habit and flow by themselves. For example, place you whole attention on the hand. It is your consciousness in the hand just for this? You can "feel" only the hand, but your consciousness will not have "moved" still.

True, this is what happens when focused here. However, once you are in an out of body, either from REM or meditation, it does not feel like that, believe me, I know what I have been experiencing.

It is just a different approach on the way to interact with the "astral"

This is what I wanted to let you know. Metaphors or whatever are just another way to interact with the "astral". It does not mean they're true. The rope method is also just a tool. There's no actual rope there.

Learning easier? Without a structure you would not have learnt at all, that's all.

You did learn something only because you used a structure, if by yourself or with the aid of others it doesn't make any difference. But now you, and others, suppose that in OBEs a structure is not needed and I would really like to know on what basis you pretend this.

I everytime posed this question, and nobody of you ever replied: if EVERY learning process has a structure for you to learn it, why for OBEs the thing should be any different? What makes you think that in this case, in the "phase" the process should be different? I'm curious to know your answer on this.

No. What I have been saying is that you can find your own structure and that you do not need a teacher to show you a structure. You can discover it on your own as "the first teacher" may have done. However, yes, a teacher can help you when you have trouble, but he/she may still not be able to help you with everything since you may experience something else, unless you OOBE the way he does.

A strucuture is born not by only one individual, but different individuals coming togheter in a sort with a "grid" on how to reproduce some results similar to everybody else. Then this structure is adopted so every other individual can start learning in an ordered way, to then come to a point that enable them to have a personal "map" (from their results on the structure) of the process.

Yes, but still, there are many structures for experiencing the same thing. However, teaching someone your structure would make it easier to know what your "student" is experiencing.

The approach cannot be sujective. The experience is, not the approach or the structure that comes from it.

Once you've got a structure you are already experiencing things. Those things can be subjective. For example you may hear stuff in SP, see things or feel presences. That's what I meant that it is subjective. Also, SP is subjective because of your sleep schedule and mood. If I tried now, I wouldn't have any SP. For example, not everyone can OOBE at 4 am.

You, yourself, are now making a difference between "meditation" and "sleep" they are two different approaches, isn't it? So you did see that the structure of the experience is different in them, isn't it? Either if I cannot really understand if you have mixed a bit the two or not, still you have noticed some difference either there, isn't it?

There is a difference in the structures, however, the OOBE is the same.

Try living forwards instead of backwards for a change,

Simply replace the "I" in "Live" with "O",

In other words say, I dO ...,

"live" means "love" and that is all there is to it, and that is all there is to it.

Love is all there is.

For me life means existing / being ... creating.

Dude... look. We all came from different beliefs. I also was with planes and lower astral and other stuff like this. However, in time, with experience we've realized they're nothing but beliefs and if we get rid of them, it will make things a lot easier.

Also, in OOBEs from REM, you do feel you are "out", it's not just imagination as you may think. Because you have not had great experiences with REM it does not mean others can't. However, you can use metaphors to help you out such as guardian angels and other stuff.

As for "non belief" is a belief. If it is, then it still occurs, so no matter what belief you have it still happens in oobes, even if your belief is a "non belief" or an astral fantasy thing. The thing is that the popular view is what yours is. Astral stuff and this is why, hopefully everyone will realize they're just BS.

Also, my first OOBE was involuntary then learned from mistakes how to get one. I found out on my own what is the best method and time to OOBE. Bedeekin learned by himself to have OOBEs. You can self-teach yourself. The fact that you first started with "notes" as you said for the guitar, it's just a structure for learning easier, it doesn't mean I did not learn on my own. Also, and if everyone needs to be taught, who taught the first person on earth OOBEs? Do not tell me it was an angel then the angel was taught by god and here we can stop cause we know nothing about God.

My oobe started off as an LD, I was too excited and broke the state and ended up in SP. Then I just got next to my bed and was looking at my room until I freaked out cause I did not know what was happening. Hadn't this happened, I do not think I would be here and I'd still be stuck in new age crap.

As Ryan said, this is subjective, your method may not work for others. Bedeekin's method rarely works on me, but it worked few times when I had involuntary SP. Now, I have another technique, which, in a way, is the same as summerlander's. I am starting to think that if people did not believe you needed to have vibrations, when they meditated they would not experience any. The problem is that if a newcomer tries oobes, every little 'strange' feeling will be associated to vibrations or whatever. I once meditated and thought I had vibes too, but when I had my SP's... I realized that those "vibrations" were nothing compared to SP's vibrations. Again, it can be different for everyone. From experience, we have created what we created.

thanks for the mission statement.

but in all truth.

life, is efil spelled backwards, nothing more.

Try "live" backwards and then you will see the truth!    

I'm a firm believer here that humans will create their own problem... even if one doesn't naturally exist.  This is the problem with humanity... we're bound only by our own self-written destiny.  >_<

Totally agreed. People seem to want to experience such situation.

Nothing.

I woke up at 6:30 AM. Usually I wake up at 9:30 AM but today I woke up early for some unknown reason. Thought I had finished my sleep.

Went to the kitchen, ate some pasta and came back to bed. But I was wrong. I needed more sleep. So instead of having a day of bad mood, I thought I would sleep between 8 to 9:30 AM before going to work.

Try this again! Wake up earlier then return to bed after a while. You may end up in LD if not SP.     

No, you have said that they are the same thing. Some things having the same "basic idea" it is not equal to them being the same.

as Xanth said it depends on what's taking over, the conscious or subconscious. OOBE's would not require REM because you enter consciously the state. When you go in an LD you are unconscious and need to realize it is a dream. Of course an LD will never feel like an OOBE. OOBEs feel real, 3D and so on.

When you are in an LD you just need to break out of the dream reality and you're in an OOBE already. As I've said, it is like a pie, it depends how much sugar you put in it. They'll have different tastes, but it still is just a pie.

Dreams < LD's < OOBE
|             |           |
|             |           |
--same phenomena--
Different abilities/feelings/awareness though

hmmm or did I? This is what I meant by them being equal. This is what everyone meant by it! Again, LD's feel different than OOBEs! In essense, they are the same phenomena. I think I gave the pie example a thousand times.

The fact that you can feel to be without a "body" (that then you never really are, but this is a complicate thing) doesn't invalidate the theory of the "energetic body", the same as if a fish inside a vase would be thrown in the ocean it would not invalidate for it the existence of water.

Yes. Also, unicorns rule the astral. The fact that you cannot see them does not invalidate the theory. That's how Christians back up their beliefs too. They do not start with the idea that something may be false. They start with the idea it is true and then back it up sometimes using the bible as well. Same to you. You already started with the idea of having something. You can't say / prove something doesn't exist once you say it exists. I also believed in energy bodies and stuff, but due to OOBEs and other things they have slowly been removed. Better OOBes, really.

Anyway, I do not think I am going to post in here anymore. It is not worth it. As Ryan said, experience for yourself and find out what they really are. Do not take everything that is said to you, experience and see for yourself.

Great answer.  Perhaps there is no box? 

The box is a lie! Actually a hallucination in a way... Hmmm 

Dreams = in a box, unconscious you're in the box
LDs = in a box, conscious about the box
OOBEs = out of the box!

But in a way, the box exists outside the box! Sooo... Hmmm...

I think it's important to see both the big and little picture, not just choose one. There's a microcosm and a macrocosm, both are real. You have to find balance.

Yep, but the big picture let us find out more about the little one. Anyway, I am sorry if I sounded like I was forcing my beliefs over the others. I am not very open when it comes to OOBEs as there are many false things on the internet. People have evolved, so has consciousness.

I was even thinking "hmmm since when a new mod called Ryan?" then I thought it may be you and saw this thread. It'll be hard to call you Ryan since I am so used to Xanth and I really liked your nick for some reason.

On this we agree.

Also a car is always a car on the basic idea. Yet, at the same time, a Ferrari is not the same as a Chrysler as every pilot can tell you.

That's what I've been saying in this thread all this time. LOL!

Also, as I've said, I describe OOBEs/LD's/dreams as "thinking/creating/being without a body or without being focused on any body". This can be achieved both in OOBEs and REM OOBEs. I've done it.

As for the term OOBE... I kind of like "out of reality experience" more or "The phase".

Are we done yet?

As I have said, Pauli.

Dreams < LD's < OOBE
|             |           |
|             |           |
--same phenomena--
Different abilities/feelings/awareness though.

Dreams do not feel like LD's neither LD's like OOBEs. However, they are the same basic idea.

I can not, if my LD is long enough (more than 20 seconds).

I think others have reported the same loss of memory on longer LDs.

I do not know... I've never stayed much in LD's. I usually turned them all into OOBEs for more freedom.

Ssergiu, your expression "REM OOBEs", do you have a reference page for that expression or
is it a home made construct of yours?

I am talking to Selea about REM OOBEs. He said that OOBEing from REM (after a sleep, during a sleep, upon awakening, whatever sleep) are not true OOBEs and this is why I want to know what the difference is. However, I still can't find any, except that a "non REM" OOBE is harder to achieve, but not impossible.

"Lucid dreams are not easily remembered, unless one is conditioned. ... OBEs,
however, are usually remembered vividly for years."

True, however you can remember lucid dreams easily too. However, this does not prove they're a different phenomena, BUT the level of awareness was different.

Many things. The way you "enter" the subconscious (talking in broad terms) change the way you experience the subconsious in the specific.

For example REM obes are not stable. You look at a watch, there's an hour, you look around then look back, the hour has changed. In "true" OBEs this doesn't happen. But this is only a little "external" difference. The real difference is in what you can do in there.

Your awareness is still focused somewhere else than your body / physical body ==> OOBE. 

Where you "go" it is the same (or it can be, also if there are "places" you cannot go depeding on what you do), how you interact with where you go it is different.

What did this have to do with anything I said? O_o

Can be, or it cannot. You cannot be sure one way or another, so why act as if you would?

I've removed any stupid new age beliefs and here is I ended up. Of course I could create a fancy energy body and other stupid things for "Astral"'s sake. I do not act as I am sure, I am sure.

And this is exactly the problem. You are talking of a thing you know only a part from personal experience yet you think you already know everything.

So, you see, you are doing exactly this. You have a "theory" (like reading a book) but that doesn't mean much.

I listed the different approaches in entering what you call the phase. You, (and the Raduga school, among many others), only use the approach one and are experienced only in it, yet you are sure already of what happens in the others. Don't you think this a bit presumptuous?

How come my personal experience led me to the theory Xanth and many others have? We did not talk about this before posting here. On astralviewers I think I am the first one who came up with this idea and people kind of agree. Also, how do you think books were written? They also were based on experiences.

Anyway, as Xanth said, it's not worth trying to explain anything. In my belief, if there's an after life, you will go to what place you believe you'll go to for a while until you realize it is your creation and remove all your "human" or physical thoughts and accept the new "life". Hope you will be able to accept it as soon as possible.

I hate to repeat myself so you will have to read this locked thread about LDs are not OBEs.

There are several skilled people, who have noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Campbell, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.

I did not say anything about LD's, but OOBEs. Also, there are 432894209 christians and I still do not believe in their religion. No matter how many they are and how many miracles there are. Those authors can't change something I am totally sure of. Saying the difference between them is just what you can do is stupid. Of course, the terms OOBEs, LD's, dreams can be used as a metaphor for what you are experiencing/able to do, but that's not a good reason why they are different. You're playing with water, what you do with it can have different names, but in essence they all are water.

You could as well suggest me authors that say you need to work on chakras, pray to weird Gods, make useless rituals, do some energy exercises and then you can OOBE! You do not need to read a lot before experiencing an OOBE. As Bedeekin said, that's like saying "Now I've read all I can read on UFO's, now it's time to see one!"

Dreams < LD's < OOBE
|             |           |
|             |           |
--same phenomena--
Different abilities/feelings/awareness though.