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[you have no eyes]

The idea of an 'astral plane' and a different 'RTZ' has never really made sense to me. I can't see why leaving your body would take you anywhere but physical reality.

We know that:

Telepathy is the attempt to communicate without using 'physical' senses/organs like the mouth and ears.

Success of telepathy depends on the level of concentration you have when performing it.

'Fluctuations' or 'inaccuracies' will develop if the level of concentration is not sufficient.


Proposal:

We see things because of our eyes. When out-of-body, you have no eyes. Sight - while out of body - is the attempt to view things without using 'physical' senses/organs like the eyes.

It is a (very difficult) skill and 'fluctuations' or inaccuracies will appear if the level of concentration is not sufficient.

Getting the correct 'image' while out-of-body depends on the level of concentration you happen to have during that OBE.

Therefore, I am inclined to think that there is no 'Astral Plane', where things are 'different' and distorted.


What reasons do you have for thinking there is an Astral Plane?

['believing' in fantasy]

Can I have some information about tooth fairies please?

..and maybe some info on how to tell whether I'm an ewok or not. I think I might be.

[]

Obviously that was a joke, but I'm seriously illustrating the danger of misinforming children about 'Santa Claus'. They might grow out of believing in Santa specifically, but often they take a VERY long time to grow out of 'believing' in fantasy.


This is a (long) quote from Tom Chalko at the forum: http://www.bioresonant.com/cgi-bin/start.cgi/forum/forum.html

quote:

Theory of Santa

The theory of Santa Claus appeals only to those who are either unable or unwilling to think.

For those who develop enough coherence in their thinking - the Theory of Santa Claus loses its appeal, even if someone tries to improve it.

If you think that the Theory of Santa Claus is just an innocent child play - think again. The Theory of Santa Claus and other similar theories can be actually more dangerous than all weapons of mass destruction taken together.

No weapon, even an atomic blast, can destroy a sufficiently evolved intellect - not only because intellect is "jam proof" by Design but also because it can be backed up. The Theory of Santa Claus however CAN slow down and even totally sabotage the development of intellect - with its OWN CONSENT.

Cheating young minds with the Theory of Santa Claus prevents them from discovering and exploring the Reality of the Universe for a LONG time - a lifetime. Do we have enough imagination and integrity to comprehend the consequences?

How many people do you know who cannot get over the 'Santa Claus' dream? How many people do you know who 'wait for someone to do something' - until they die?

Believing is not enough. We need to KNOW. Hoping that there is someone somewhere who 'knows' and waiting for "someone to do something" - is more dangerous for your conscious existence than exploding an atomic bomb above your head.

I wish I could give you some of my intelligence and imagination. I also wouldn't mind receiving some more myself. Unfortunately this is not possible. Every Individual Intellect in the Universe has to evolve entirely ON ITS OWN. Evolution of Intellect, intelligence, imagination and the ability to Understand is strictly the result of an individual effort.

I cannot understand anything FOR you. No one can. You need to develop the understanding entirely by yourself. You need to examine all assumptions and simplifications that other people make and come to your OWN conclusions. Never stop seeking a better explanation.

Understanding cannot be undone. It can only be improved.

The more you advance your understanding today - the more will you be able to understand tomorrow. What are you planning to understand tomorrow? What have you done TODAY to advance your understanding?

If you want something done - you need to do it yourself. Are you skeptical about how much one can do?

Do not underestimate the potential of anyone's intellect, especially your own, because it is unlimited. The only limit that exists is the one that you impose yourself.

Never doubt that a single Individual Intellect can change the world. This is the ONLY thing that EVER DID... [Tom]

Electricity itself = the flow of electrons.

As I posted in another thread: The Astral Body is made up of billions of electrons, and as 'modern science' has only just discovered, ONE electron can store a library's worth of information. Consciousness - like information - must be encoded in something to have an affect on the 'physical world'. Our minds are encoded into the electrons in our Astral Body.

A weak electric current from the brain links it to the astral body. I'm currently trying to figure out if this weak current is the 'cord' that has sometimes been observed while out of body, I don't know this yet.

You can find a little bit of info on this here:
http://www.thiaoouba.com/electron1.html
http://nujournal.net/choice.html

I know at least one long term effect: dependence on brainwave generators.

Out of the people I've heard from that have experienced both lucid dreams and OBEs, the majority have said that OBEs feel more real than the most vivid lucid dream. Obviously, we'll see what people say here rather than taking my word for that.

quote:Originally posted by Veccolo

Well I can only speak for the lucid dreams I had. I had lucid dreams which were totally blurry and not vivid at all. In these there seems to be a lack of control over the dream, probably because it's too "dreamish". Then I had lucid dreams which were just as vivid as real life. Much control, very stable.

Maybe it's similar with OBEs.

This is the concentration concept I was talking about. The clarity and lucidity of a lucid dream depend on your concentration and awareness at that time. Just like OBEs, if you let your mind wander, or lose concentration, things will seem to distort or become more dream-like. Lucid dreams are obviously easier to maintain than OBEs (since the dreamworld is generated in your own mind anyway).

This site http://www.near-death.com/ has some good info too

As I've said before, what you guys refer to as RTZ OBE, I refer to just as an OBE. Real OBEs (or RTZ OBEs) take a phenomenal amount of concentration to maintain the correct perception, otherwise it will fade into something similar to a dream. OBEs are very difficult and at our level of mental/spiritual evolution, I wouldn't be surprised to find that it is only people like tibetan monks and a few others that can really perceive the physical universe consistently.

Due to this difficulty, perhaps some of you requiring more proof should also study Near Death Experiences, these OBEs always effortlessly perceive the physical universe as it is.

I did a search on this forum for card tests or other verification episodes, here are some that I found:

Beavis:

"I've had many experiences that could be called RTZ projection, but most of them are vague. At least 6 months ago, I did 3 experiments successfully (similar to the card test), which prove that I was really in RTZ. Since then, I have not been concerned with proving it is real. I forgot, without trying to prove anything, me and Tayesin did meet in RTZ in my apartment, and we verified our experiences were the same the next day."

"Twice I read 4 digit random numbers on my computer screen in an OBE."





Links Shadow

"I have tried the viewing card exercise and have had it work. Althought I have only done it one time so I don't know if I could repeat it but I am sure that I could. If you are just curious if it is possible then yes it is"






wonderboy

"I have done it. it was a double blind experiment my roommate shuffled the card and didn't look at it but put it up on the shelf. I OBE'd (after several months of trying to see the card) and saw it. I called both my roommates in to verify before I ever looked at it. Interestingly enough when a couple of us first got into AP the majority of people wanted proof. But even after the card viewing they just wanted more proof. All I can say is that I've been a lucid dreamer for years, and when you are out of body, you know it."







gerble king

"For instance, when I first started having OBEs I decided to see if what I was experiencing was real or a dream. So I decided that the next time I had an OBE I would go outside with the sole purpose of finding something objective that I could then go and observe awake. When the next OBE occurred I went straight outside repeating the purpose (find something objective) to myself over and over. Very soon I saw two people walking up the street across from my house, one in white and the other in black, I then head straight back to my body and told myself to wake up and run outside to check my observation. When I woke, up I ran outside and saw the people. This convinced me that it was real."







Donna

"I had gone out of body using the phasing method to visit my daughters' house she had just bought. She had not told me anything about it, all I knew was that it was in NE Louisiana.
I went, explored, and then called her with a description the next day. This included the fact that no one was home, how the furniture was arranged, and finding a tall concrete post in the front yard, and some broken windows in front. She confirmed all of this the next day.

One of the children in our neghborhood had gotten hit by a car. I was told the fathers' name and I had known them for years. They have three young boys, about ten months apart in ages, and I was not told which one it was,and could not find out. All I knew was that the child was in the emergency room. This time I simply sent my conciousness out, as in remote viewing, being both concious "here" and "in the emergency room" at the same time. The boy was lying on one of their beds, more afraid that hurt, though I did get the knowledge that his left hip was hurting. His mother and grandmother were in the ER exam room with him.Everyone was quiet, but I did gain the knowledge,somehow (?), that his name was Stephen (this inrormation Just "came to me" as well as his state of condition physically, as I watched this scene. This turned out to be all true, as I asked my son to find out for me, and I talked to the father several days later. The child was fine later, as healing was sent."





amcturbo

"I attempt to visit a friend's house 3-1/2 blocks away, when projecting in the RTZ ... I've never made it there ... yet!

What I have discovered, is the while heading across the neighbor's back yard, one morning at 5:30am, I noticed the flicker of a TV screen thru her backroom window. During the OBE, I thought this to be odd and that it was an OBE/Dream fluctuation ... that it WASN'T TRUE ... because (1) This was here bedroom ... (2) It was 5:30am and she doesn't seem to get up early as she is a night owl ... and (3) I've never seen a TV screen flicker from that window since she moved in ... and (4) that the previous owner used to have a TV flicker through that window ... so I thought I was CREATING the experience of seeing a TV screen flicker.

Long-story-short, I have since confirmed, by visiting her house ... that the rear room is a *Den* or *Family Room* ... not a bedroom ... and that it has a TV in it. I've also been able to confirm, multiple times, that she watches TV at 5:00am-6:00am in the morning, while I am outside exercising at this time of the morning. Lastly, from my wife talking with her, I've discovered that she is somewhat of an insomniac, having sleeping problems, which is probably why she is up watch TV then."




Patty

"It was convincing enough that I asked my husband to put a note on a high shelf. I wanted to try to read it while out of body. During my second projection, which was every bit as convincing as the first, I found myself standing under the high shelf. It was so eerie (sp?). I was standing there, everything looked completely normal in the bedroom, but eerily grey and hummily quiet. Like there was a buzz that you couldn't hear, only feel, and there was no other noise. Very otherworldly. I stood looking at this shelf, out of body, and thinking - "how the heck am I supposed to get up there???" then I woke up.
...But, the first time I made it to the shelf - I found an empty coke can. Crumpled, old, empty can. This stuck in my mind because I knew upon waking that it was so ludicrous. There was no way a coke can would have gotten on the shelf. The shelf is built into the house, and it would have meant that someone would have had to throw the can up to this shelf - ten feet off the ground - it made no sense. I was really upset by it, feeling like "If I can't trust what I see, then I am never going to prove to myself that we survive death." (Or something along those lines.)
After maybe a half dozen attempts to read the note, I told husband that I couldn't read it. It was too dark (something that I thought shouldn't matter before I had any experience) and so we should take the note down and put something that I could identify by feel.
I got a ladder, and climbed up - and on the otherwise empty shelf was a pull-tab from an empty coke can - it had been there for years, covered with dust. Also there was the note, which said "WAKE UP!" (my husband's idea of a joke.)
I had been convinced that the empty coke can had been entirely a mental construct. Finding a tab from a coke can was so unexpected. It was only a little thing, and it might not mean much - but it was so surprising and rewarding.
(I won't comment on the fact that every time I tried to get to the note, I would 'wake up.' Grrrr. )"




nightflier101

"One day I decided to try a conscious projection, but to have proof I put a playing card in a box hanging from the ceiling. I read this book about Ingo Swan, a psycic who performed the same experiment for a scientist.
I got out in about 10 minutes of trying, but I was only halfway between my physical body and the box. Being my first conscious projection, I started flapping my arms, but it worked. I got up to the box and looked down inside and saw the 8 of diamonds. I immediately woke up back in the chair I was sitting in, my head was slumped down as if sleeping. I stood on the chair and took down the box and looked inside, it was! it was! ...the 8 of diamonds."





manuel

I think I will post some of my experiences here on such maters, when I first started having these experiences, I remember one very clear one, I went into my parents room, floated to the top of the ceiling, and looked down and saw my mother asleep on the bed by her self, I noticed that my father was not there, I also noticed how the sheets where moved where my father was previously, I noticed my mother was some what awake, but still lying in bed, now I get up after this experience go to there room and see pretty much the exact same thing, I had no prior knowledge on this either, the only thing was my mother was asleep but not up, I can only conclude in that mater that I saw the a few minutes into the "future" in fact, this did not hit me until later when I realised hey!..She was by her self, another experience that happened halfway during 2003, I got up out of my body, gently floated out the window, and saw my father to my right hand side of the yard, I noticed his clothes and his position, I only saw this for a fraction of the time, after this, I went through my neighbours house and noticed some things, all this was later verified afterwards, and yes, no prior knowledge on the clothes, his position, and what contained in the neighbours house (peeking over the fence confirmed this for me).

Another trip was to LA California to a close friend I know, I noticed clothes, bed, sleeping, etc, pretty much everything matched up excluded that I saw writing on her shirt when there was non, this plus other little experiences in seeing the correct weather etc




Zarklon

They can be really frustrating.. when I passed through the wall and saw my dad laying on the bed like that one night , I thought that it was a reality fluctuation and I ended the experience purposely.... Turns out that , he really WAS laying like that so I hope you can grasp just how tricky the astral really is..





Tescious


I had a friend who was skeptic so we did a test. I told him to set any of his X-Box games on his desk until I can successfully project over there and tell him what game he set on his desk. 2 Days later, I did an afternoon projection and proceeded to his house, I failed. Later that night, I attempted again and this time when I got there I looked on his desk and thought I fell into the 'Alice' effect because I saw 2 X-Box games and couldn't really make them out so I considered this a failure too.

The next day I told him I think I slipped into some astral dream because I saw 2 X-box games and couldn't make out either one. Plus, I knew he had only put 1 there. When I told him this, he looked at me like he had seen a ghost and when I asked what was wrong, he told me he put 2 games instead of 1 just to see if I'd really do it because in a dream I could make a good guess based on expectations, so he started to become a believer.

Berserk, I see nothing in your post that suggests that all OBEs are mere lucid dreams. It does - however - make sense to me that most 'OBEs' would be like yours was, turning into a dream. When you are Out-of-body, you don't have eyes, so it's very easy for your perception to be distorted by your own mind until it's just the same as a dream.

It is very difficult and rare skill to be able to perceive the world 'as it is' (so-called 'RTZ') consistently.

quote:Originally posted by James S


2) This is quite basic, sorry if it has already been answered. Is the consciousness the same things as the soul?

Basically, yes. Consciousness is a function of the soul. This is as opposed to thought processes which are more a function of the physical brain.

I fully agree with 1). Regarding 2), I'd just like to say that I have found no such evidence that 'thought processes' are a function of the physical brain. I think this comes from the misinterpretations that mainstream science has with their observations of the brain. Many people interested in OBEs fail to notice their assumptions, taking their interpretations as fact, and claim that it is only consciousness that is seperate from the body. The whole of your mind is seperate from your body.

What our neuroscientists have observed is different parts of the brain metabolising when certain types of thoughts/feelings are felt. They then jump to the biased conclusion that these activities of the brain are acutally producing the thoughts/feelings. The brain is a receiver for the mind (as well as being the control centre of the body), just like any other receiver, you would expect different parts to show activity when different functions are used.

Sorry to get so off-topic. In my view, mind is the same things as the soul.

quote:

Despite all the theories about God and existence since the beginning of man, don't you think that if there is something more we are meant to understand in this life, that we would understand it?  If it's our purpose, then where are these answers?  We didn't come here, born with no recollection of anything and having to learn everything, to discover all the answers of the universe and dimensions beyond in the short time we live.  Accept it, we won't know the truth untill we die.  So live!

Actually alpha, If I was 'God', I would want people to forget everything at the start of a life to try to demonstrate their understanding, rather than their knowledge. It's the best way to learn, don't try and remember what you did wrong last time, try to understand the whole thing. Imagine if we learnt arithmetic by memorising that 2+3 is not 4, 1+6 is not 10, 2+7=9, instead of understanding how numbers work. One more example, []. I wouldn't want someone to remember how to act in a certain situation, I want their actions to 'come from the heart' so to speak.

[Seperating your mind from your body is just 'an extra skill' that the brain can do?]

quote:What is the whole OBE ability is just an extra skill that our bodies have, and in no way proves anything about God or ghosts or any of that stuff.

Hahahaha. Seperating your mind from your body is just 'an extra skill' that the brain can do?

The more logical conclusion is that the mind does not originate from the brain at all. That is pretty much the only thing that OBEs themselves prove.

[] On the contrary Kazbadan, I wish more people would seek proof. There are too many blind believers nowadays, who just believe anything that sounds nice and comforts them. People should seek to KNOW, not just to believe.

[1. is it 4169? no 2. is it 3456? no 3. is it 1098? no..12. is it 3424? yes.]

Kazbadan, I suggest you search these forums and find all of the testimonials of verifications. You tell me if they could be dreams or just chance. There is nothing scientifically wrong with the figures, considering the subject. If someone has 100 projections and on ONE, that person manages to 'see' the four digit number in another room, that is still highly highly unlikely and still constitutes evidence.

This isn't a case of:
1. is it 4169? no  
2. is it 3456? no  
3. is it 1098? no
.
.
12. is it 3424? yes.



This is more like:
1. didn't see it    
2. didn't see it
3. didn't see it
.
.
12. I saw it. It is 3424. Yes


...and I'm talking about real verification, not getting the weather correct. []

[REAL]

Is everyone ignoring the Verification argument? Beavis was the last person to mention it but some others did too. Verifying things that you saw in an OBE is proof that they are REAL, not just subjective, not just dreams, not just hallucinations. 'Real', as in: Mind seperating from body.

There have been a number of experiments that have shown the ability to verify things from NDEs or OBEs, but - conveniently - the 'scientific community' decide not to recognize the results. So it's down to you individually to prove it to yourself.

Telepathy is the skill of communication without mouths, ears, etc.

Astral Sight is the skill of visual perception without eyes.

Ultimately, Mind is over matter.

I posted this a few weeks ago, in a topic called 'Telepathy' []


I've practiced telepathy for a total of no more than 8 hours in my entire life, but I am still confident that I can send and receive colours, numbers, emotions quite accurately. It is a very simple skill.

(forgive the UK spelling)

My basic 'no-frills' method: To send a colour. Sit across from your practicing partner. Both of you relax (no more than 10 seconds). Close you eyes (optional, i like to rule out the possibility of body language) .(optional) Visualise a 'tunnel' of light or other connection from one person to the other (no more than 30 seconds).

The sender visualises a colour, visualises being surrounded by that colour, visualises the receiver being surrounded by that colour, visualises being in the receiver's point of view and seeing the colour, visualises being the receiver and seeing the colour. Lots of 'action' and different points of view should be applied to what you're sending.
The receiver just waits, trying to keep a blank mind. You do not need to be an expert at meditation, or have a totally clear mind. You just need to know not to 'decide' or think of a colour. If a colour pops up, don't forget it, but dismiss it. If it keeps coming up, maybe that's the one. In the end, there will be one colour that you've 'got a feeling it is', more than any other.

(The sending/receiving part normally takes 1 minute)


That's all. Just practice that a few times, you should notice improvements at a fast rate. In the beginning there will be a lot of "OOOH, That's the one I thought it was first, but I changed my mind, damn!". Keep practicing, you'll naturally learn to identify which feelings you should be going with.

I don't get much chance to practice, so if you do have someone to practice with, well, i'm jealous.

Good Luck

[mind]

Spiritual development - the advancing of the abilities of the mind - would be much more difficult without reincarnation. It would take a LOT more than one life's lessons for us to become as spiritually developed as - say - buddha, jesus, ghandi etc... Don't forget that it is very unlikely that Earth is the only planet with life on it. It is even less likely that Earth is one of the more spiritually developed planets.

Children don't need toys to develop, but they develop much faster with them. This physical universe is here for a REASON.

I think you already got what I meant, but just to clarify in case. I think both of those theories are true. They are not exclusive at all. Like most things there can be different reasons for the same thing. We're all individual, we all have individual reasons for things that are happening to us, or for things we do.

[encoded]

I'm just going to state what I think the connection is. []

The Astral Body is made up of billions of electrons, and as 'modern science' has only just discovered, ONE electron can store a library's worth of information. Consciousness - like information - must be encoded in something to have an affect on the 'physical world'. Our minds are encoded into the electrons in our Astral Body.

A weak electric current from the brain links it to the astral body. I'm currently trying to figure out if this weak current is the 'cord' that has sometimes been observed while out of body, I don't know this yet.

You can find a little bit of info on this here:
http://www.thiaoouba.com/electron1.html
http://nujournal.net/choice.html


I'm also trying to investigate whether this is what causes the hairs to stand up on the back of people's necks in the prescence of 'ghosts' or other astral bodies (static electricity) []

No it's not baloney at all. [] We were simply stating another  possibility, for some people it is for the reasons stated in the article, for others it is through choice. You should read those books and maybe you will understand why.

Don't forget the possibility that you may have CHOSEN to live a life with 'disabilities' to make you appreciate other things, or to give you a different perspective.

While you are on that site, I recommend the two books on there, especially The Freedom of Choice, both books can be read online for free. [] www.thiaoouba.com

Wow, this is an exciting method. I can tell just from thinking about it that it will work. Even if the 'brain cycle' doesn't work for everyone, the routine of continuous focus on the objective (to LD), will ensure results. I'm starting tonight. Thanks for posting that method Nagual. []

[physically]

I still haven't had an OBE, but I noticed that kind of thing happening to me. I figured out what it was. For me, I was actually tensing my body up myself, not realising that I was physically trying to pull/push myself out. When you feel like you're close to projecting, you want to 'push' yourself out so badly that you unconsciously try to use your muscles to do it. If the idea is to relax, then this is going to stop you from achieving an OBE.

I have a strong view that there once was life on mars (full human-like life), but obviously mars has become uninhabitable. In my opinion due to its nuclear core naturally cooling down (the opposite of what's happening on this planet).

However, I don't see how Mars can appear any colour but red. No doubt mars - like other planets - would have a blue sky, if it weren't for the sandstorms. I was under the impression that the constant sandstorms and the colour of the sandy surface give Mars the colour we see.

I've always naturally rolled my eyes back when trying to project. Recently I thought rolling my eyes back might be why I still haven't succeeded (not relaxing my eyes). But if you say it can be done with eyes rolled back, then I'll go back to doing it. []