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Lastly (yay!)

Reincarnation and the Jinn.

Now what are we? Our physical bodies? No, our psychic bodies? Well the etheric and astral bodies are also shells, our Psyches are not us, we are like onion skins wrapped about each other, hence we are MULTI DIMENSIONAL, living and existing in MULTIPLE dimensions

While outward exoteric Islam explains the minimum needed for humanity to live their life with intent and purpose, and to create SOCIETIES enabling spiritual pursuit (this is the true purpose of the Shariat law, to order human society to the minimum degree necessary to remove gross oppression, and create enough balance so that humanity can turn to inner pursuits without obstructions, if they choose to do so, and if they choose not to do so, at least to prevent them from making too many problems for those who do)

Inward esoteric Islam's scholars saw fit to further investigate reality. Thus many Dervish thinkers arrived at beliefs that when born OUR SOULS PASS AND LIVE THROUGH MULTIPLE WORLDS, sometimes getting stuck in one, so to speak, and acquiring colors and traits from that world.

I refer interested readers to the writings of Hazrat Innyat Khan Sufi.

Our souls may live in the realms of hurqalya, whence the Jinn come, and acquire the traits of the Jinn, including a fondness and disposition towards music, poetry, the arts, and a fiery temperament. There are many other planes and worlds and passage through them may yield their traits on people. So traits, skills, even memories of other lives ARE from other lives...

But in other dimensions and worlds.

The New Age concept of an "Oversoul" is a simplification of an ancient dervish teaching, I explained the inhale/exhale pulse of creation (interested readers are refered to the writings of Ibn Arabi, Mulla Sadra, and Suhrawardi, as translated in English).

Now it is known that ALL IN THIS WORLD IS A SYMBOL, a mirror image, of objects in ANOTHER WORLD. This is the secret of magick. The other world is Hurqalya, or "the astral plane", which is itself a MIRROR of another world, and so on.

Hence our rejection of "flat" frequency based models of meta-reality popular in New Age circles, these models have truth within them but only explain part of the story. The levels of reality that are more dense, and solid, are those on the periphery, imagine a GREAT WHEEL, with spokes, and bands on each level until the circle's hub and midpoint.

At the circle's midpoint A SINGLE POINT, this point irreducible. Imagine, here, "Allah", beyond gender, beyond form, formless, ancient of days, encompassing all gender, all possibilities. Imagine a great sun, irridating light outward, EVERY FORM IN THIS WORLD is a mirror image of an archetype, in a   world of suspended images, that world, a mirror image of other worlds, and so on. EVERY FORM MANIFESTS A "NAME" of Allah in some way, a human being or a Jinn manifests Allah's names and attributes, such as life, sight, hearing, and other harder to explain ones IN A UNIQUE CONFIGURATION, our BODIES are reflections of other BODIES in other worlds until we cease to be forms and are "essences" or spirits, these spirits are manifestations of a "Lord", a "Rab", a divine name, this is the master Archetype of who and what we are.

It is what New Age circles call "an oversoul". It is a trait and attribute of Allah, Allah as manifested to the creation since Allah is in essence beyond manifestation. One Lord has manifested itself in MANY separate smaller selves throughout time and space and all the worlds, ALL of the Worlds, known and unknown. Thus it is said that "He who knows himself knows his Lord"

Thus the Prophet Muhammad taught that there were many earths and upon each of those earths is an Adam like our Adam, and even a Muhammad like our Muhammad.

And it is not proper for me to speak and speculate in idle fancy along such topics much further, beyond what is needed to stimulate conversation, and debate, for I believe that it is by comparing ideas boldly and yet with grace that we may grow in knowledge and lore. Perhaps there is much within this in which I an incorrect and my correction may come by the words of a fellow reader.  The interested reader can pursue them to her or his heart's content further with the above as an aid to his or her research.

I close with the traditional benediction; anything of good in this is from Allah, anything other is from my ego-self (al-Nafs), and truly Allah knows best, so praise to the Lord of the worlds and salutations upon his Prophets and their loved ones. Upon you, reader, I wish peace.

I believe that DIFFERENCES IN WORLDVIEWS AND EXPERIENCES affect how different people look at spiritual doctrines.

Someone who has been abused and downtrodden will have GUT almost physical reactions to certain situations, words, and even ideas.

Someone who has led a life of relative ease will have others.

For example, a young girl or boy who has been abandoned repeatedly in their youth may find trust difficult in later life.

Some people seem more jaded or cynical, emotional armor, others seek certain experiences or situations, while avoiding others.

So I try to tread easy when talking about my beliefs and those of others, bear with me please.

I think that we can all note that life in many parts of the world is harder than life in the West, who the heck wants to be a out-caste garbage scavenger in Bombay for 3 incarnations?

There are specific Weltenschuungs in the West, and in the East, that are shared across many cultures. THESE SHARED WORLD VIEWS AFFECT CULTURE AND LANGUAGE AND RELIGION.

This effects things a great deal, I think. For example, traditionally Afghani and Central Asian Muslim cultures have things in common with the Chinese taoists, as part of their general worldviews, shared across Central Asia.

Arab Muslim cultures share much in their worldviews as crystalised in their culture with Mediteranian peoples, and in Southern Arabia with some African peoples.

Now I think that reincarnation of the SOUL is a different matter than reincarnation of the SPIRIT.

In our culture today the two words are interchangable, but once, not so very long ago, there was less ambiguity.

Part of the problem is that CHURCH DOCTRINE DIVIDED REALITY INTO TWO SPHERES, Spirit, and Matter.

In Ancient times this was not the case, there has ALWAYS been an intermediate dimension betweeh matter and spirit.

The Alchemists know of this, and we discuss it here, this is the DAEMONIC, the PSYCHIC dimensions of reality.

The SOUL. The soul is intermediate between the spirit and matter. In Arabic Spirit is Ruh. Soul is Nafs. Body is Jism.

WE REJECT TRANSMIGRATION OF THE SELF, the soul, the psyche. The individual Ego. Indeed many buddhist teach that there IS NO PERMINANT SELF so what is there to reincarnate?

HOWVER, in a sense, we can argue for a transmigration of the Atman. Now is Atman our soul? No, it is the spiritual essence beyond this soul.

There is one true Self, one true atman. One true Being. Here we arrive at the doorsteps of a mystery.

Thank you for bearing with me, I'm just trying to get as much stuff posted to stimulate discussion, and clear the air, so to speak;


On Reincarnation and Cosmology.

Islam in general, with the exception of one or two thinkers (and the problematic Ismaili sect) sharply rejects reincarnation, indeed there are MANY problems, we feel, with modern  New Age concepts of Reincarnation. There is something more going on here, AND there are ways to reconcile sincere beliefs in reincarnation, and sincere beliefs AGAINST reincarnation, and also ways of explaining phenomena such as past life memories and the like, but I'll get to this, if my fair readers will read on.

First a question, if there is no linear time (and linear time is an illusion, in a sense, limited to certain planes of existence) HOW CAN WE HAVE PAST OR FUTURE LIVES ?

As we seen it, naught truly IS excepting Allah, and naught of time truly IS except the single moment, the eternal now, all else is a limited perception. All being is contingent, only Allah is true Being, and indeed the ESSENCE (al-dhat) of Allah is BEYOND BEING ITSELF.

Allah stated that 'Man curses time through the ages, but know that I am time' The sort of "time" spoken of is al-Dahr, or time through the ages, a concept similar to the modern concept of the Space Time continuum.

It is said that nothing was except Allah "upon his throne", and that Allah IS now as Allah WAS.

There is no past, there is no future, each moment is a NEW CREATION.

Why?

This teaching of the exoteric theologians, known as the Mutakalimun (of the Ashari school) is explained as everything being composed of irreducibley small particles "atoms", and each atom only exists for a brief period of time, blinks out of existence, and is renewed by Allah, EVERY MOMENT IS NEW.

Now the Inner teachings of the Sufi dervishes explain this further, for many of the Dervishes believe that there are BREATHS, pulses, of existence, in, out, expansion, contraction, THESE ARE THE BREATHS OF ALLAH in a metaphorical sense.

Mercy (al-Rahma) the "feminine" creation, and Rigor/wrath (ghadab), the "masculine" destruction, expand, contract; in a single moment a rhythmic pulse expands (think of the Great Bang) outward engendering all creation, and retracts DESTROYING ALL, constantly, for all eternity over and over again.

Thus as the Quran says, every day Allah is upon a new affair. This should be meditated upon. Each human soul is a unique creation as well, and this is what Muslims also find offensive about reincarnation, but I'll explain this further.

Older concepts of metempsychosis, transmigration, and rebirth, found in SOME Hindu and Buddhist thought, are less problematic, but it merits pointing out that, contrary to popular belief, doctrines of reincarnation are not all that common in the ancient world.

Greeks in LATER periods held some doctrines of metempsychosis, mainly after Plato, who taught a form of metempsychosis, he learnt from the Pythagorean schools, who got it from study in certain Egyptian mystery schools.

SOME Egyptian mystery schools taught similar doctrines, and the post-Vedic Hindus did as well. But witness the beliefs in heavens and hells in the Egyptian Book of the Dead.

Some of the Celts seem to have believed in a rebirth in OTHER WORLDS, and a return for some to this world, but their beliefs are not well documented. LATER Druids believed in Rebirth but this could be influenced by Greek thought, as it is known that the Druid sages also studied similar mystery traditions in later periods.

Also some later Jewish doctrines describe a type of soul-wandering from body to body, sometimes without death taking place.

A belief in metempsychosis is also found here and there, amongst some American tribes, in some pacific tribes, but it is not Universal, belief in other types of post-death states also abound with equal if not greater frequency.

I NOW BELIEVE (Personally, I speak for myself) that ALL of these doctrines describe phenomena that exists, but not in the sense that people usually take them. I also believe that...

MORE MANY WESTERNERS THE IDEA OF REINCARNATION IS VERY ROMANTIC, VERY APPEALING.

It appeals to some people in ways that other doctrines do not.

It is interesting that in Eastern cultures people are repelled by the idea of reincarnating.

In modern Western cultures, many people look upon the doctrine with a fondness as a sort of school, of sorts, of hard knocks.

Still in the East many dread it, the whole point of many schools of Yoga and Buddhist thought is to ESCAPE Samsara, reincarnation is a punishment for them, not a chance to learn more, rather its a hard knock on the head for not achieving the NORMATIVE STATE of Nirvana,

Reincarnation is thus seen as an unfortunate consequence for failing to reach a normative state, not a school to help us evolve.

Reincarnation is no where found in the Vedas, instead ideas similar to Islamic ones, of a judgement after death and a heaven for those pleasing to the Gods, are found in scattered bits through the Vedas.

The Taoists in China NEVER believed in reincarnation until AFTER the Buddhists took control in China. This is a historical fact.

There are heavens and hells, however, in Taoist beliefs. As well in Tibetan Bon beliefs, and these beliefs were integrated into later Buddhist beliefs.

As Zen teaches (and many Zen schools either refuse to deal with reincarnation or reject it off the bat) ANYONE CAN BECOME ENLIGHTENED IN A MOMENT.

It does not and need not take 1000 lifetimes to achieve enlightenment, a child could given the right circumstances.

I also believe, personally, as to dispositions, there is an INHERENT OPTIMISM in Anglo-Saxon cultures, especially in American ones, that is a good virtue but can have the unfortunate dark-side reflection of...

A certain type of indolence and laziness, really no one needs to repeat 12th grade 5 times before graduating.

Our school systems give many chances, GEDs, remedial courses, and the like. Many other cultures do not allow this.

This is because we are optimists here, and realize that human nature IS perfectible given enough knocks on the head, and door.

But honestly folks, who really NEEDS to repeat 12th grade three times?

Oh, more on the Jinn. They are often refere dto as Pre-Adamite due to their dominion upon this world before the rise of man. Those readers who are fans of comparative myth, or of Fantasy writers like. R. Tolkien, should find much food for thought (indeed Tolkien's myths on the Elves before man, and the fall of Numidor, resonate here)



It is believed that there were between 40 and 72 Kings of the Jinn in the many thousands of years before the birth of our father Adam (and Islamic beliefs state that there were many "Adams" so we speak of the latest one).

The last earthly king of the Jinn was "Jann Ibn Jann" and it is believed that his name is the derivation of the modern name Jinn. Indeed the Jann are believed by a few to be an ancient primal race of the Jinn.

Modern Jinns are legion, but are roughly classified as the Ifrits, who are powerful in might, the Marid (or Maridah in the feminine), who are VERY dangerous beings of greater power still, and roughly correspond to Western notions of "Demons", The Ghouls, who are weaker (but still dangerous) and prowl graveyards, the weaker Jann, and the Shaitans (Satans) who are malevolent and in league with the the entity that Christians call Satan, whom we Muslims call Iblis or Shaitan (in the proper sense).

ANY man OR Jinn displaying certain traits is a Shaitan, Satan is a generic term in Islam).

This entity was a warrior amongst the Jinn's race, known as al-Harith in his youth (according to some authorities) and was captured in battle, it is believed by some, by certain powerful Angels.

In those days, it is believed, the Jinn had corrupted the earth and land, spread great cities using many arts and sciences but grew in PRIDE and wickedness, they spilt blood upon the earth, and descended into interfighting and warfare and idolotry, hence the Angels waged war from the heavens against them.

Al-Harith was captured and showed great aptitude, repented of his ignorance and arrogance and was elevated in rank to reside amongst the angels. He  became a learned scholar and worshiper and exceeded the angels in knowledge, piety, and spiritual zeal, until his fatal slip of arrogance when Adam was created.

It is believed that Iron and Steel have a baleful effect on many Jinn, in this physical world iron and steel have virtues, powers, or energies, that for some reason (I could share my speculations) can be harmful for them.

SALT is also believed to be harmful for Jinni spirits. In egypt people would sprinkle salt on doorsteps to prevent the Jinn from entering. In Western occultism there survives the use of salt for clearing and cleansing magical energies, I suspect that the reasons for this working are related to the reasons for the Jinn's aversion of salt.


Some authorities also state running water repels the Jinn as well.

If taking a human form, the Jinn can interbreed with Humans. This resonates STRONGLY with the ancient Celts beliefs in marriages and unions between the Fairies and Man. And with ancient biblical legends of the Nephilhim mating with the daughters of man, and ancient legends of mighty Heros walking the earth, sons and daughters of the "gods" and mortal women.

Female Jinn are often said to be quite beautiful but usually with some uncanny physical trait, for instance unusual eyes or the like. Their morality and customs are said to differ a bit from many human, but in general Islamic law recognizes the marriages of a man and jinnia, or a women and jinni. The offspring are often believed to have certain magical traits.

Jinn die but live lifespans so long they seem almost immortal, they are good and evil, moral and amoral, though their morality may or may not differ from ours (Allah knows best). It is believed that they are given a reckoning of their DEEDS and INTENTS just as man is, and may go to heaven or hell for a time, or even eternity if their wickedness merits it.

The next subject is reincarnation and cosmology.

786

Ok, I'm a newish lurker and member to this forum, though I'm a bit of a "fan" of Mr. Bruce, and have been for a couple of years now, roughly.

I'll start by presenting my perspectives on sundry topics based on my understanding of Islam.

I'll touch on Jesus, Dreams and Out of Body Experiences, the Jinn, Magick, and if time permits more controversial topics like patriarchy, marriage practices, sexuality, and the like.

Direct comments to southakj@mpowernet.com

Jesus and the Messiah:

An earlier poster stated that Muslims do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. This is an innacurate statement.

Muslims *emphatically* believe that Jesus Christ WAS the Messiah. Full stop. In fact the Quran blames the Israelites of the time for not accepting him as the Messiah. In Arabic Jesus is called 'Isa al-Masih, of "Jesus the Messiah". Masih means, amongst other things, "anointed" from the arabic root m-s-h meaning to wipe. It also has the meaning of a "walker" or "traveller" since Jesus, being an anchorite and ascetic, pretty much traveled the earth on foot.

Now JEWS AND MUSLIMS mean something very different by the word "Messiah" than Christians. This may be the cause of confusion.

The Messiah is prophesised to return to this earthly plane near the end of time, he will descend in Damascus by one of the minarets, and lead the world's faithful against the "antichrist", or the "Masih al-Dajjal", the false Messiah. A Global leader who will conquer most of the world, set up a religion dedicated to him, and sow falsehood. This topic and the specific prophesies associated with it, would form volumes in and of themselves.

Myopia can be dangerous, every society has contempt for the other until an attempt is made to understand the other.

For people engaged in Spiritual pursuits to not RELENTLESSLY examine their preconceptions and assumptions is simply foolhardy. One poster refered to dancing in the streets after Sept. 11th but did she realise the sheer number of candlelight vigils for the dead held across the Muslim world? Does she realise that as much sympathy has been directed at the US in many of these countries as rage?

However the TV tends to tune into lurid images that match our own preconceptions. One reads about horrible things done to little girls in some Muslim societies but one knows utterly nothing about similar, if not worse, practices in Hindu India, or in Certain Buddhist societies, or in pagan African societies, to this day.

Would she believe it if this was pointed out to her or would she dismiss it all?

Question your answers, is all that I'm trying to say. And for God's sake don't just believe everything you see on TV. The world is complex, far more complex than just black and white.

The Jinn are as a group neither good nor evil, but rather just like humanity, their allegances and dispositions vary.

It is believed that Jinn are "shape shifters" and can adopt animal forms and disguises, and even Human ones, or just pass unseen amongst us. In Myths and legends it seems that the forms MOST often taken by Jinns are REPTILIAN - snakes and the like, or the forms of Black Dogs. But they can asume any form, even innanimate objects. BUT ONCE ASSUMING A FORM THEY ARE BELIEVED TO BE BOUND BY THAT FORM'S LAWS. So if a Jinn assumes the form of, say, a huge snake, it is possible to slay it by the means one would normally slay such a beast. Or in the case of a man.

Some Jinn, just as some men and women, are more powerful than others, some possess vastly powerful magics, others do not. Most are beleived to go about their day to day lives, take care of their young, entertain each other, in much the manner that humans are.

It is believed that the greatest of Human spirituals are more powerful than the greatest of the Jinn, the "Ifreets". A Sufi Wali (Saint) can overpower a Jinn, as can a sincere believer, through the power of the Quran, whose words and very sounds we believe, possess intrinsic power, independent of the will and intent of the reciter.

Sorcery "al-Sihr" is forbidden in Islam, now much of what Westerners consider to be magic wasn't considered magic in Medeval Islamdom but rather simply different sciences. Sihr is specifically sorcery, usually of a ceremonial sort, tapping into the powers of the Jinn for various effects. It is useful to note that in every healthy traditional civilization, including Indian and Chinese, sorcery became popular in later periods of civilizational degeneration, but I refer readers to the works of Rene Guenon on such matters. The psychic forces tapped into by sorceries were regarded by Medeval Muslim magicans as being essentially of a Jinni nature. In some cases seeing the Jinn as beings is a bit of a misperception, it is equally accurate to see them as currents of force, power. Understanding this point makes it easier to understand certain popular myths, such as those in the Arabian nights.

Along this line I refer readers to Julius Evola's work on Practical Magic, his understanding of Magic, and Rene Guenon's, was pretty close to the understanding and worldviews, of Medeval Magicians in Islamdom.

Indeed, for that matter, what are human beings, if not currents of life force, crystallized into physical forms? But this is a tangent.

Cont...

All Muslims in Classical Islamic times were obsessed by dreams, classical Islamdom was a civilization throughly obsessed with dreams and dreamlike states, which explains the through penetration of drugs like Hashish and opium into near eastern societies after their fall into decadance. As rigorous spiritual practices ceased to be practiced by the majority of Muslims it became so much easier just to smoke pot in local coffeehouses and achieve similar states. This was, many Muslims believe, a contributing factor in Islamdom's decline.

The rationalist worldview in the West influenced 18th and 19th century Muslim thinkers and subjects like dreams, and dream travel, became disreputable to some Muslim thinkers. Still, in the traditional Islamic world, the subject of dreams and dream interpritation is still quite important to laymen, and the religious scholars and clergy, espescially those with Sufic affiliations, are almost obsessed with the subject.

The Jinn, the jinn are beings of a "psychic" nature, that is to say that they are energetic beings "made of fire" whose natures are of a soul like one. They are of the nature that makes up the "Alam al-arwah" or world of souls, the psychic foundation of reality. This is to say that they are the native denizens of the lower "astral planes".

Magic, being a psychic phenonema, is natural to them. Beings like mythical Fays, fairies, elementals, and "spirits", indeed all manner of daemons, are by definition Jinn. There are many races and species of the Jinn and their kind predates Humanity by many ages.

Because of their great antiquity and long lifespans, they are believed to possess many Arts and Sciences that Mankind does not. They are believed to be communicated with in dreams or dreamlike states, trances and the like, or in Ceremonial Magic, behind the protection of a Magic circle.

Their forms and essences can be, it is believed, INFUSED with physical objects on this plane, thus by magics of various sorts it is believed that they can be trapped into haunting or possessing objects, houses, LAMPS, books, pillars, stones, even rings.

Modern Muslim scholars believe that UFO phenonema are caused by these "otherworldly" visitors, who are not physically aliens but rather come from another level of reality, the psychic or astral dimensions.

786

Ok, I'm a newish lurker and member to this forum, I'll start by presenting my perspectives on sundry topics based on my understanding of Islam.

I'll touch on Jesus, Dreams and Out of Body Experiences, the Jinn, and if time permits more contriversial topics like patriarchy, marriage practices, sexuality, and the like.

Direct comments to southakj@mpowernet.com

Jesus and the Messiah: Muslims *emphatically* believe that Jesus Christ WAS the Messiah. Full stop. In fact the Quran blames the Israelites of the time for not accepting him as the Messiah. In Arabic Jesus is called 'Isa al-Masih, of "Jesus the Messiah". Masih means, amongst other things, "annointed" from the arabic root m-s-h meaning to wipe. It also has the meaning of a "walker" or "traveller" since Jesus, being an anchorite and ascetic, pretty much traveled the earth on foot.

The Messiah is prophesised to return to this earthly plane near the end of time, he will descend in Damascus by one of the minarets, and lead the world's faithful against the "antichrist", or the "Masih al-Dajjal", the false Messiah. A Global leader who will conquer most of the world, set up a religion dedicated to him, and sow falsehood. This topic and the specific prophesies associated with it, would form volumes in and of themselves.

Two, out of body experiences: What we call "Astral" travel is, or at least WAS in pre-modern times, a well accepted and documented matter in Islamdom.

In Indo-Iranian Islam the "Astral plane" is called Hurqallya. It has also been called "Na Koja Abad" or "Nowhere land" PARTS of it (the higher planes) are also known as the Alam-i Mithal  (or Alam al-Amthal in Arabic) and there are other names still.

On the cosmology of these planes and worlds, the best authorities are;
Muhyiddin Ibn Arabi, the Spainish Sufi.
Mulla Sadra and the Ishraqi philosophers
al-Shurawardi
And the "Shaykhi" school of Philosophers, who systematically
explored a good deal of the Astral Plane and formed various theories regarding it, relating it to the science of lenses and optics.


The Sufis refered to "Soul travel" in which the "Nafs" (or soul, what western occultists would call the Etheric body and the Astral body combined, since the nafs has different levels) could, and would, travel the world and other worlds/planes as well, and even with training assume a dense solidity. The masters of this art were usually Sufis.

Medeval Muslims were less concerned with etheric/astral projection than with exploration of dream states. A Hadith (statement) of the Prophet Muhammad, and one attributed to the Prophet Daniel, stated that in Sleep Allah removes the soul of man and raises it almost up to his throne, Dreams were often seen as experiences the soul underwent travelling up through the worlds in this nightly journey.

Purification rites should be performed before sleep so that the soul can properly pass through, unmolested. These rites are called "wudu" or "ghusl" and consist of a rite of washing the hands, face and head, arms, and feet. And in the most  excelent form of the rite the teeth are to be brushed and the nostrels rensed out.

The rite is symbolic as water is a worldly symbol of purifying Light, or "nur". The ghusl is a bath with the above elements added, it is a grounding and purification, and is to be performed after sexual intercourse, the menstral cycle, and certain other occasions.