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Ok all we are saying is this...

Is it possible that instead of angels it was a few bored demons (not the computer kind) that decided to mess with your head?

There are distinct differences in the energies of angels to those of other spirits that people with experience here can easily pick.

Leylay's an experienced clairvoyant. She's worked with enough different spirits to tell who's who. More devious spirits can fake their apperences, but they can't fake their energies.

I mention this because I've been in that situation too.


James.

Good and evil - a common theme in all religions and belife systems.
The problem is... who is good and who is evil - it is all a matter of perspective.

As for the faking energy - nothing is impossible  

Ok all we are saying is this...

Is it possible that instead of angels it was a few bored demons (not the computer kind) that decided to mess with your head?

I was not insulting you - but I am kind of glad I did.

Because that was one of my points...religion tends to send people off the deep end faster then anything else, not to mention that it also makes them assume certain things without knowing any of the facts.

Just because I do not belive them to be "angels" does not mean that they do not exist.

But the act of calling them "angels" or "demons" attaches a certain stigma to them.

For example if I tell you I had a 4 hour conversation with a "deamon" you would get a mental image that I was sitting there with some bat winged monster that wanted nothing more then my enternal damnation.

When in fact I am a computer guy and "deamon" is slang for a network server - but because the word looks and sounds like "demon" people automaticaly assume certain things based off their own belifes... even when the two subjects have nothing to do with each other, the impulse to prejudge the topic based off their religious belifes is too strong to ignore.

When it comes to OOBEs and things of that nature I think (like Robert Monroe) people should remain as open and objective as possible - just because it is a "pretty being made of light" does not mean it wants to help you in any way - more to the point it may actually want to eat you instead  

The other point I wanted to make is that saying everyone that can OOBE (basically every living creature) is part angel is very offensive to people that do not belive in god and angels and such things... not to mention terrifying if you think about it from the perspective of non-christians... little hindu girl gets out of her body only to get a firm beating by a few angels that happened to be in the area and wanted to put the word of god into her.

So in short - before you start labeling things and saying they are "angelic" or "demonic" maybe - just maybe ask them who they are, and then ask them to prove it - after all it might be something that just wants to play with your mind  

[all]

Not to be rude but all religions are just man made inventions and ideals.

Some belive in god and satan, some in the old gods like marduk and pazuzu and tiamat other belive in buda, others in goddess.

Christians are a good example - there are numerous forms of christianity and all of them belive that everyone else (even other other religions that belive in the same god) are going to a bad place.

The point I am trying to make here is everyone has their belifes, and to say that if you can do this then you must be part of something is just dead wrong.

There are powerful forces out there, and these inventions we call "gods" and "goddesses" are mere shadows or echos of the real thing.

With that being said -

I belive that science has always been slow to catch up with the "supernatural" - not too long ago our ancestors hugged each other in fear as lightning and thunder ripped across the sky - they belived the "gods" were upset.

In modern times we know that thunder and lightning is caused by charged particals in the clouds that bind together to form a static charge. You don't see masses of people screaming in fear from the thunder - now days they know it is not some all powerful being that is mad but rather a natural event that we can understand.

As far as OOBEs are concerned, we are till in fear of them, don't understand them, or just flat out don't know they exist.

Some day in the future we will have hard scientific proof of the astral, and of course when we do more and more religious belifes will be dispelled.

If you feel it nessasary to flame me for the rant about religions, thats fine - but remeber I do not belive what you belive - so in the end I really won't care  

I have tried many things, and read many books...even tried the tapes and CDs.

Seems like the more I study the topic the farther away I get from my goals. I have always been the type to wake up during an OOBE or wake up and can't move (I really hate that).

It appears the main "triggers" for an OOBE are...

1 - Extreme Relaxation
2 - Clear mind
3 - Focus on your goals

Most of the things I have tried get me right to that edge the first few times, then after a few times it seems to loose effectivness.

I am just curious what works best for you?

Hello all - have not been on the forums in a long long time, been doing some personal reflection.

Suffered from insomnia all my life and got into the OOBE thing by reading up on relaxation techniques and such...any ways long story made short I will get to the heart of the issue.

Insomnia..well...really, really (I mean REALLY) sucks. You spend countless hours waiting for sleep only to realize you spent the entire night counting sheep or stairing at the ceiling and you have to get up for work in 20 minutes.

I often observe my girl friend fall alseep, rather fastinating really, her head hits the pillow and in about 5 minutes she is snoring (yes she snores - drives me insane). So I asked her - how do you fall alseep so damn fast? She said she has no idea she just lays down and thinks to herself "time to sleep" and she is out cold.

Makes sence I always lay there thinking about work, or hobbies or the fact that the ceiling could REALLY use a fresh coat of paint. Before I know what happened I am wide awake and laying there for another sleepless night.

So I tried it - some success - got some sleep, and the next day thought about it...what if it was all that easy? What about OOBEs or Remote Viewing?

The next night girl friend had to work (finally I don't have to listen to her snore) so I laid down and thought about all the OOBE techniques I have read about (Monroe, Bruce, etc etc).

I told myself to forget everything I have read or tried, even the things that worked. And I took several deep breaths to relax a bit.

Then I thought to myself ... "Time to get out".

(dramatic pause)

Nothing Happened.

Well that was a waste of time  - went to get back up and...I could not move a muscle, I was totally imobilized (omg not this again) so like usual I lay there and focused on wiggling my fingers. After what seemed like a few minutes I could move my fingers, then my hands and arms and so forth.

Frustrated I got up and thought about what happened.

Then I remeber reading in Roberts book about being paralized is a sign that "you" (at least a copy of you) has already left the body and is out at some smashing party - grabbed my copy of his book off the shelf and a cup of coffee later found the section in question....funny cause most nights I just write it off as my arms falling asleep or somthing...how could I forget reading that.

What I could not find out (the reason for this post) is ... WHY?

Am I going to "deep" to fast, or am I to focused on the body?

Or

Is there a step I am missing?

Sincerly - Disgruntled Ex-OOBE'er

heheh Tom -

Ya I still feel bad about the whole thing...just driving me nuts trying to figure the whole thing out...normally I don't mind him barking, actually trained him to bark so people would stay away from the house  

Just working on getting him to stop barkign once he starts.

Just the whole thing seemed odd (obviously my arm going into his head was weird) - some would say dream and some would say OOBE - just curious how you REALLY tell the difference.

Ok first off.... I DO NOT BEAT MY DOG!

I have two dogs and two cats... I love animals and take very good care of them.

One of the dogs (big black dog with a weight problem - too many snacks -  is named Luke) he has an issue about barking. Every morning without fail when the people next door leave for work at 6 AM he will bark his head off for about an hour.

Anyways to the point...
Layed down to sleep and did my energy exercises...as usuall I slip off into sleep as soon as the "vibrations" start up.

The dog wolk me up barking as usual... but this time I was not content to just tell him to be quite... I got out of bed and walked ot the other side of the room.  Luke ignored me yelling at him to "shut up" he was 100% focused on barking at the window.

I yelled at him one more time and smashed my fist right into his face.
But my fist...my arm..went right through his head and he just kept barking  

I stood there stunned with a barking dog lodged in my arm for about three seconds...then I sat strait up in bed.

Luke was at the window..he quit barking, walked over to me wagging his tail and licked my hand.

I felt so bad about the whole thing that I think Luke ate more of my breakfast then I did.

Dream or OOBE !?!?!?

As a side note that day I got a very bad case of the flu and have been in bed for two weeks.

It is my experience that the "tingling" and "vibrations" are not the end effect but just a mild side effect - I have had OOBEs without any of these present.

Just my two cents worth...I would notice them but not care about them.. focus more on deep relaxation then on weird feelings.

Hello all -

All was going good, could recall about to three dreams a night everynight for months....then I got the flu  

Had the flu for two weeks...I thought because I was pretty much bound to the bed that I would more on energy work and attempts to have a controlled oobe (all my previous experiences are I laydown and snap I am out - or I have a "dream" that was a little too real)

Anyways during the two weeks with the flu... nothing...and I mean NOTHING happened.

Started feeling better the other day, and last night felt good enough to hang out with friends.

Last night went to bed feeling better then I have felt in weeks....and would you know it...two dreams without doing any type of meditation before bed.  

are you laying on your back?

Every book I read says "lay on your back" and when I do I find it very hard to breath unless I tilt my head to one side...for what ever reason my airway closes up when I lay flat on my back and makes it very hard to breath.

just my two cents worth...

It is one of two things...

1. Yourself

2. An actual Astral Being

If it is number 1 (yourself) it could be a representation of your thoughts and fears...in that case you have some soul searching to do (as do we all).

If it is number 2(someone else) then just remeber thought is action...while out and being attacked imagine yourself surrounded by an force field (as corney as that sounds) that nothing can penitrate.

The attacker will eventually get bored and leave  

I have for a long time been interested in OOBE and Self Hypnosis...

To-date all of my OOBEs have been "random" in the sence that I will be dreaming and for what ever reason realize I am dreaming...and then of course everything changes...some say it was still only a dream but after performing tests I know better.

Reading a book on self hypnosis:
Practical Self Hypnosis By Melvin Powers

I noticed that Hypnosis and the deep relaxation needed for OOBEs are very very similar.

So I was goofing around the other night and trying an exercise in the book.

The basics of it are the typical "lie down, relax, take a few deep breaths, imagine you are laying on cloud..."

And it was then I noticed that the "energy" movents (as described in Robert Bruces books) started on their own.

I used the technique in the Hyponosis book to give myself a "trigger" that would automatically take me back to that same point in time.

The next night I layed down and instead of doing any enegry work I repeated the "trigger" in my mind and BAM - everything was as the night before...deeply relaxed, no feeling other then the "energy" movment.

So this got me thinking...

For every idea someone has, 9 million other people have already done it.

Who has tried Self Hypnosis in conjunction with OOBEs?

What happened?

Hello -

Been gone from the forums for a long while...been working on getting into a relaxed state and have been reading up on meditation / relaxation and self hypnonis.

I have hade OOBEs before but ALL of them were pure chance / luck - happened to be dreaming and realized it was a dream - snap - I am out...But I have not yet been able to intentionally get out.

Last night I relaxed deeper then I think I ever had before.

Each time I noticed a difference in how relaxed I was, I would give myself a hypnotic suggestion (aka a trigger) that "if I repeat the word Phase (number here) I will imediatly return to this state"

After going through my relaxation routine...

My limbs felt heavy and pulsed with a numb kind of sensation (like when your foot falls alseep).

The sensatation quicky spread to the rest of my body... it felt like a tingly warm heat.

Images and light flashed by and started hearing weird sounds.

Then I heard a LOUD BANG - was as if a gun had been shot next to my ears.

My hearing seemed to "shift" - thats the best way I can describe it - there was a rushing sound...sounded like running water.

I then realized that I could no longer feel my body.

No sensation at all.

As soon as the that realization came over me I tried to move my arm...don't know why but for some reason I was determined to move my arm.

No luck there - I was in total sleep paralisis.

From what I read in Robert Bruces Book - the best thing to do is wait it out... so I observed my situation...I felt as if I was laying on a cloud of air, I had zero sensation from my body but I could still hear things (like the dogs snoring)...my vision was as if I was in a pitch black room...but I could not move my eyes at all.

At one point I even tried to return to a previous stage / phase - no luck at all.

I gave my self a self-hypnotic suggestion that I will open my eyes as soon as this paralisis has passed.

Obviously time was distorted in that state, but it felt like 5 minutes had passed and my eye snapped open and I sat strait up in bed.

I guessed the total time was about 15 minutes.. looked at the clock and two hours had passed.

Honestly I do not know what to think of this...
Maybe I had a very vey weird dream?

Maybe "I" got out but being so focused on my body (relaxation exercise) my mind stayed with the body?

OK so I have read a great number of books on the subject of OOBE and have also had my own experiences.

As of late I have been in a "dry spell", no dreams, no experiences, nothing...the reason why as it turns out was problems with dream recall / shadow memory (what ever the terms you use).

I personally belive that we all get out of our bodies every night, even if we don't want to or don't remeber it.

This morning I had a very powerful experience...even if it makes very little sence to me at this moment.

I am going to copy the exact experience that I recorded in my personal journal...don't get hung up on the details, most of it seems like gibberish or small parts of a bigger picture.

Keywords in Journal: Graves, Carolyn, the thief, and duality

--- Journal Entry ---
This morning was very weird.

I wolk up to the alarm and thought to myself "great another night without dreams".

Turned the alarm off and layed down determined to get another 10 minutes of sleep.

Then a voice that sounded like my own (kind of like I was talking to myself) said "what are you talking about we had a lot of dreams.

Suddenly I was flooded with images and thoughts that seemed to be not my own, but at the same time seemed like I was remebering them.

As this was happening I seemed to realize I was laying on my left side and standing at the edge of the bed at the same time (OOBE duality / mind split?)... this was freaky and amazing at the same time.

They raced by so fast that I had a hard time retaining them all but here goes...

Was walking through a gravyard, the sub was up and it seemed to be about noon.

I was with a few other people, can not remember their names or faces.
I asked what we were doing and an man in the group replied "looking for the oldest graves".

Before I could ask why in the world we would be looking for the oldest graves, another man in the group shouted "over here"

We all raced over and saw a small cluster of headstones, obviously old and weathered.

The legend on the first one read "Carolyn 1" the next ready "Missy 1" and the next read "Carolyn 2"

The images blured and I was standing in what looked like a department store.

In front of me was a teenaged girl - she was encased in what looked like wax paper, it surrounded her from the floor to the ceiling.

She was talking to a cameraman is if she was on TV.

In her hand she had a toaster oven.

She smiled into the camera and said "truley this works, i have been here 4 times today...don't worry I will return the toasters back to MTV and they can give them back to the store owner."

It dawned on me that no one else in the store could see her.

After the thoughts and images finished, so did the feeling of being in two places at once...I sat up and looked around the room, wiggled my toes to make sure I still had 10 of them (could not feel my feet).

--- End Of Journal Entry ---

Now to me those images / thoughts / memories were complete gibberish.

Like I said in the journal, they went by so fast I could only grab bits and peices of them.

What I am trying to point out in this post is not the dreams / thoughts / memories...but rather the duality.

While this was happening I was laying in bed and standing at the end of the bed at the same time.

In Robert Bruces book he talks about the mind split effect and downloading "shadow memories" from your astral body as it re-integrates with your pysical body, the issue is when you are consious and aware of being in both places at the same time.

This is what I belive happened to me this morning.

And I have to tell you, after having a dry spell of no experiences at all, this to me is a HUGE milestone.

I found also WHY I was having a "dry spell" -

Have been sick as of late, sore throat, mild fever - basically a cold.

After I got up this morning I felt much better (not just because of this experience but pysically better).

The dry spell directly relates to the process of me getting a cold - as soon as I started feeling crappy, my experiences stopped. And as soon as I started feeling better (today) they started back up.

I have had full blown OOBEs before and this obviously was not one of them. But it was the first time I experienced total mind split.

And to me, it proves that we do leave our bodies even if we are not remebering them.

I know that tons of people have said this to be true...but to me this is proof...and that removes doubt from my mind.

Been going very good for me - been having amazing dreams, and remembering some OOBE activities...

Then out of the blue - nothing.

It is as if I laydown and have no memory of the 6 hours I sleep.

Have tried a few things to break this cycle - any suggestions ?

Well after trying a few methods some worked a little and some none at all and still some were amazing, I found a relaxation method that 100% of the time puts me to sleep...so now that I have this method down, I am switching to working on OOBEs...after all the relaxation and Mind Awake / Body sleep is the biggest step right? [|)]

Mind you I am working on a relaxation technique that works for me not so much the Alpha and Omega of OOBE methods.

Any ways I have noticed a few things...things in my life seem to be changing at an incredible rate. I am posting this to see if anyone else has had similar experiances - and asking for advice on where to go from here.

[] 1. More dreams - and more intense / weird - sometimes they are so weird that I wake up saying to myself "WTF was that all about???" Even had a dream where I was talking to my boss and told my boss that "I know this is a dream so I QUIT" - lol.

[^] 2. My body seems to be on auto-pilot, not I hardly get 1/2 way through my technique and I am out cold - and this is comming from a die hard insomniac.

[] 3. I am always cold - it is july here in Michigan (Battle Creek - home of Kelloggs ceral if your interested) - anyways I laydown and am hot...soon I find myself putting more and more covers on the bed as I get cold fast - this never used to happen.

[] 4. Multi-tasking mind...my daytime thoughts seem razor sharp, I am an IT professional and my job demands that my attention is split on multiple projects at once. A few months ago this was a pain - now it seems to come as instinctual as breathing.

[}:)] 5. Mentally  grounded - no more internal chatter - you knw the type - thinking of all the things you have to do, did I turn the stove off, what should I have for dinner...all of that seemed to come to an abrupt stop. I now seem to be focused 90% to 99% on my current thought / task.

[] 6. Hypnotic (spelling) images (faces, places, the "mist") occur about 20 - 50 seconds after I lay down, if I focus on them I can mentaly change them into things that I want (a face of someone I know, geometric shapes, other images)

[!] 7. The "buzzing" noise - this is a constant - I get this noise (sometimes feel like I have bugs or fingers moving all over me) and this usually starts about 15 minutes after laying down and continues until I drop off to sleep...sometimes it is very very very annoying.

[?] 8. A clicking sound - odd...happened a few times this week...at the threshold were I can tell I am close to sleep and I hear this loud "click" sometimes it sounds like someone flipped a light switch and sometimes it sounds like a gun firing (one time it was so loud I sat strait up in bed).

[?][?][?] 9. Nothingness - this one happened twice - images / buzzing noises get more and more intense - then everything stops - and I mean everything.

Not going to post my relaxation method as it is nothing special - no vodoo magick here, you just need to find what works for you.

I have read 1000 times that the hardest thing is learning to relax...I am by no means a master at it, but have definalty crossed some type of personal milestone.

So if anyone has any thoughts or comments - please share.

Ok before I start, want to just say I have not finished the book, and from what I have read I do like it...but I am looking for advice from others that have read the book and followed the instructions in it.

Reading the book, I find it increadably hard to follow at first and end up re-reading parts of the books (especially energy work).

This is probably not a fault of the author - more like I am just not getting the idea the first time.

What I am wondering is....

1. Should I read the entire book before starting the methods in it?

2. How effective have you found the methods?

3. What are some realistic goals for beginners?

4. Any other hints / tips you can give are welcome.

Personally the methods I have tried (from the book) are very powerfull. But I get to a point where I kind of lay there and say to myself "ok now what".

The only issue I have with the book - it seems to dive right into the deep ends of energy work without explaining why it is needed until midway through the book - like I said probably not the authors fault.

If anyone is interested - (from what I have read), this book is a "must read" - it really takes a refreshingly different approach to the subject.

Hey everyone - this is probably the dumbest question asked on these boards, if so forgive me []

I read a lot of books / web sites / forums / new groups and one subject that always pops up is the dream journal.

For those of you that have no idea what i am talking about...

I dream journal is a book (or rather blank not pad) that you keep at your bed side, imediatly after you wake up, you grab it and got down any dreams you had.

This is supposed to help you in the long run my making you more aware of the dream state (lucid dreaming) and oobe (live and from memory).

I have never kept a dream journal myself, but I was wondering if any of you had?

Did it help?
Did it work?
What would you recomend?

Thanks in advance

Can you guys and gals recomend some good books on the topic of OOBEs?
Thanks

Hello -

I am sure a number of you have read the Robert Monroe Series...

He has also made a number of "hemi-sync" CDs (basically audio cds that help with oobe and altered states of awareness)

http://www.hemi-sync.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=8

Just wondering if anyone has used them?
Any thoughts about them?
Are there any cheaper alternatives?
Has Robert Bruce done anything like this (I would be more inclined to buy from Bruce then Monroe)?
Bottom line - do they work?

I have downloaded the "astral abyss" MP3 and a few others from the file area in this forum and had limited success []

Anyone out there recomend the Brainwave generator ?
http://www.bwgen.com/

Thanks in advance

Now I have this problem...
(warning this is highly detailed)

I am an insomniac by nature, typically I will toss and turn all night long before I finally decide to get up and do something other then count sheep.

This is how I got turned on to OOBEs - and other reasons - might as well do something fun while I can not sleep [8D]

Anyways to get to the point...

From tips and hints in this forum I have developed my own personal relaxation method.

1. Laydown and get comfortable.
2. Go through my personal routine

The routine goes like this:

I focus on the body part, and relax it, and at the same time tell myself to relax it...

Feet: (say to self) "feet fall asleep mind stay awake"
Lower Legs: (say to self) "Lower Legs fall asleep mind stay awake"
Upper Legs: (say to self) "Upper Legs fall asleep mind stay awake"
Pelvis: (say to self) "Pelvis fall asleep mind stay awake"
Mid Section: (say to self) "Mid Section fall asleep mind stay awake"
Torso: (say to self) "Torso fall asleep mind stay awake"
Hands: (say to self) "Hands fall asleep mind stay awake"
Fore Arms: (say to self) "Fore Arms fall asleep mind stay awake"
Upper Arms: (say to self) "Upper Arms fall asleep mind stay awake"
Sholders: (say to self) "Sholders fall asleep mind stay awake"
Neck: (say to self) "Neck fall asleep mind stay awake"
Head: (say to self) "Head fall asleep mind stay awake"
Face: (say to self) "Face fall asleep mind stay awake"
Jaw: (say to self) "Jaw fall asleep mind stay awake"
Eyes: (say to self) "Eyes fall asleep mind stay awake"

The whole routine takes about 5 minutes from start to finish.
Notice that I SPECIFICALLY focus on the face, jaw and eyes - I have noticed even when I am "relaxed" I still have a lot of tension in those areas, so I specifically focus on those areas.

Now like I said when I started this post, I have an incredibly hard time falling alseep.

While doing the routine I have noticed...

1. Flashes of light.
2. Buzzing noises in my ears
3. My body gets VERY hot
4. Breathing and heart rate get very slow
5. Random images (like turning a TV on and back off really fast)
6. Random / ambient sounds (like a womans voice when I am home alone)
7. A "pulsing" feeling in various parts of my body - this feeling seems to travel on its own.
8. Parts of my body "feel" like they are moving but are really not.
9. Geometric shaped (can be manipulated by thinking of them)

And that is after doing the routine just once.

So I then start over - starting at my feet and trying to go to my head...

BUT

I never make it that far.
To my knowlege the farest I have gotten (going feet to head) is the torso.

I always fall sleep.

Dispite all my efforts, dispite all my willpower - no matter how excited I am - just poof - asleep.

I have even tried doing the routine once, getting up for 5 minutes and laying down to do it again - still alseep before I finish.

This is a double edge sword to me...

I am finally getting a good nights sleep (and having some AMAZING dreams)

BUT - I am not consciously getting out of my body.

I am sure (or rather convinced) that I am in fact getting out to one degree or another and remebering it as "dreams".

Anyone have this problem, or possibly suggestions?

Just as a side note...I have the same results no matter what time of day or night, no matter how tired or awake I am.

Please help as sleep is STILL my foe [!]

This weekend I went out and had a few beers with an old friend of mine...you know the type of friend you can (and do) say anything to.

We started talking about Dreams, OOBE, and the various other sub topics that follow (and no we did not drink that much).

One problem we have in looking (objectivly) at the subject is telling the difference between them.

Now you should know that we both have done alot of research on the topics, and both had our own experiences.

Groups of people say we OOBE every night no matter if we remeber it or not, other say OOBEs are dreams, and yet others say dreams are memories of OOBEs.

Personally I have a VERY hard time getting out (and being in control) - my typical experience is like watching a movie - I know what is going to happen next and I know how to "change the channel" or "adjust the volume"...but I know it is not a lucid dream as I can remeber events and tell my friends what they actualy did with an 80% to 90& success rate.

Don't get me wrong I know the difference from dreams, lucid dreams, and oobe.

BUT

How do you make the distinction between dreams, OOBE, and mental vomit...the later being just supressed emotions and ideas that come to light in the form of very weird dreams...like the one I had of duck taping my bosses mouth shut.

I know from experience and research that you can tell if it is a dream by forcing your left brain to be active... looking at phone numbers in the phone book - reading a sign and making sure it is spelled right - making sure the color of the sky is correct - things that are only "logial" (hence dreams are a right brain function).

The real question is the chicken and the egg, the alpha and omega...

What are dreams?
Chemical impulses in the brain?
Or something much more?

What are OOBEs?
Chemical impulses in the brain?
Or something much more?

I have read (and experienced) walking into a picture while out of body...you actually walk into the "reality" of the image itself...

So if I walk into a painting of the forest, suddenly I am IN the forest or more correctly in a lucid dream that is mimicking the painting.

I guess what i am really asking is this...

Are Dreams, OOBE, and Mental Vomit intercangable or are they all different in nature but the brain interprets them in a very limited fashion?

I have been browsing the forums for about a week new and I have noticed alot of people have the same problems I have...

Seems that alot of people (myself included) can get right to that point...right to the "event horizon" were the Astral seperates from the Physical...

Then we fall asleep or worse we get over excited and snap back to being fully physically awake [!]

It has been said that we (all of us) get out of our bodies every night - the only difference between an OOBE and a normal nights "sleep" is that during an OOBE we keep our minds awake and aware. []

I have been thinking about this all day. Why do we (the ones that have this issue) fall asleep at the critical moment???

I mean sitting up heart pounding with excitment is understandable and I have done it more times then I care to mention.

But falling asleep?

What do you guys / gals think is the issue?

Do we fall off into sleep because of:

1. Lack of disipline (OOBE is natural then why this)?
2. Lack of intrest (doubt this but had to add it)?
3. Fear (fear of the unknown or of new things perhaps)?
4. Mental blockage (fancy term for mental fear)?
5. Physical Reaction (fancy term for bodies defence mechanizm)?

Personally I tend to belive that it might be on a "per case" basis.

Honestly (no macho BS) I am not afraid of anything...what does not kill me makes me stronger, and if it does kill me, well...then at least I would be out of my body []

But back to the topic at hand...

From what I have read (this forum and others), this problem only seems to effect "new" people - ie - people just starting to try and have an OOBE.

Have any of you gurus had this problem?
How did you get past this bump in the road?
Is it a mental block or the bodys natural reaction, or both?

In tradition with this forum, here is what happens to me....

I lay down.

The "buzzing" in my ears starts about 1 minute later (even if I am not wanting it).

Images and shapes form in the blackness, most of the times geometric (squares, circles, triangles) and sometimes just colors (looks like a ripple of water on a lake).

Then the "buzzing" noise gets louder and louder - meanwhile parts of my body start falling asleep (tingling, numbness, other more wierd sensations).

The tingling / numbness intensifies as it moves through my body covering me like some invisble blanket.

At this point it takes a HUGE amount of effort to move my body if I need to.

And finally - I fall sleep [!]

Most of the time I will actually catch myself drifting in and out of sleep and try to focus on mentaly staying away.

So what gives?
Am I doing something wrong?
Am I doing something right?

My first attept in a long time ...
Found these forums and read, read, read, did I mention read.

Found Birm's "triangle method":
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6762

Will break it down into the basics of the method and what happened to me.

The method calls you to focus on both your ears and your "third eye" (about an inch above your eyebrows in the middle) this causes a "dizzy" type of effect, you instantly feel disorientated.

This works best if you can hear a buzzing noise in your ears when you are relaxed.

I have never had a problem getting relaxed, hearing the buzzing noises, seeing shapes.

Last night i tried the method, about 4 minutes (time gets very distorted for me) after laying down I started to hear the noise in my ears, I tried the triangle method...

The noise got louder - and then VERY LOUD!
Then my body felt like it was being electrified (but no pain).

I then saw my cat creeping across the bed to lick my face (damn cat always does this).

So I thought great - cat ruined it for me...
Thats when I realized that I was still seeing my cat and forcing myself to OPEN my eyes.

needless to say once that occured to be I sat strait up in bed with my heart racing a mile a minute.


Any tips or advice from you gurus ?

Thanks