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Hi Violetrose,

You ask a good question, and I think you presented it in a very logical way.  The Bible prohibits all forms of sorcery (Heb. "Kessep") in Duet. 18:10.  In Exodus 7:11 the terms magician and sorcerer are shown to be synonymous from the Bible's perspective.  Jesus could not have been who he, and the New Testament, claimed if he was practicing magic/sorcery.  But I think the more important point is that his ability to manipulate the natural realm didn't need to come from magic.  Exodus 7 contains the big competition between magic, which G-d was/is against, and the miraculous, which G-d worked through Moses and Aaron.  There is another route to the supernatural beyond magic.


Shalom Exothen,

I've been loitering around this forum for a couple of months, but I haven't posted much.  I am a Messianic Jew.

What's up AK,

"Esotoricism and occultism are exactly the same word in different languages, and with the same meaning.  Spirituality IS the occult."

Well those three words have different definitions in this language, and those definitions are distinguished in Hebrew (Language of the Old Testament).

"Spirituality"

1 : something that in ecclesiastical law belongs to the church or to a cleric as such
2 : CLERGY
3 : sensitivity or attachment to religious values
4 : the quality or state of being spiritual
 
A look at the first definition should convince you that no priest of minister will deny the importance of spirituality.  Every religion is based on spirituality.  "G-d is spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."  (John 4:24)


"es•o•ter•i•cism"

1 : esoteric doctrines or practices
2 : the quality or state of being esoteric

In other words being secretive, but the word does not define of what you are being secretive about.  "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." -Jesus (Matt. 13:11).  No, the Bible never "violently condemns" this.  Niether does it openly promote it, but I wouldn't say we're being to esoteric concerning AP, energy work or any of the other subjects we're discussing.

"According to you, Jebus doesn't excercise spirits out of fortune tellers and sooth sayers and the like."

Has nothing to do with me.  According to the Gospels there is no reference for your claim.  There is a girl in Mark 7:30 who Jesus casts a demon out of and and she is never referred to as a fortune teller or anything else, and the demon was only cast out because her mother begged Jesus to do it.  Coincidently every individual who was freed of demons by Jesus was grateful.      

"If you challenged any preist or minister by saying that jesus doesn't condemn the occult and spirituality, then, I would like to see that."

You are correct that many of the practices in the occult are prohibited in scripture.  I haven't found AP, energy work or breath awareness to be among that list.

How's it going Violetrose?

As you may know the three Magi from the East (i.e. Babylon) probably got their instruction and clues concerning the Messiah from the Chief of the Magi (Magicians), Daniel (Dan 4:9) hundreds of years ealier; although he himself was not a magician.  He was appointed Chief because he did what no magician could do, interperet  Nebuchadnezzar's dream.  Many G-dly men of the Bible, including Jesus, did supernatural things that are mimicked in magic, but you'll find that magic was not the source of their ability.

Hey,

I was wondering if a moderator would be a little more specific about exactly which of "these practices" we're refering to.

Thanks

A.K.666,

quote:  "You can find a thread I made about this in the 'magic' forum and it has pages full of quotes from the buybull which directly and violently condemn occultism, spirituality and esotoricm as the worst things a christian or a jew can do. "

Occultism, yes; spirituality and esotericm, no.

quote: "If you think jebus (Jesus?) supported this, look at the new testament, he goes around with his desciples EXCORCISING 'EVIL SPIRITS' out of sooth sayers, fortune tellers, mystics, and sorcerers."

No he doesn't.

Yep, that's a pick up line if I've ever heard one.

"Olam" can mean "Universe" or "Forever".  "Le" would mean "To" or "Go to"

Hi Somebloke,

Just for the trivia, "Olam" is in the intro to just about every Hebrew prayer written.