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I did not read the post just the title...Mere words??? Words and symbols are everything my friend. There are no such thing as MERE words.Ok now ill read it...

What do you mean by "Words and symbols are everything"? It is not clear to me. But it sounds interesting.

[it takes no more than 15 minutes for me to be consumed by the words]

 
Firstly, I would like to express my greetings to all of you and my thanks for your responses.

To the moderators and administrators, please place this thread in the most appropriate location as I have been unable to determine which may be the best place for it.

I would like to ask the following question simply because I have been unable to answer it myself.  My question deals with the words of the saints, the gurus, the canons (e.g. The Bible, The Torah, The Koran, The Baghavad Gita, etc.) How is it that these words have an effect on certain individuals unlike the effect that anything else may have on them? For example, I have myself been reading Ramana Maharshi on and off for approximately three years now.  Although much of it I can say I understand intellectually, I can't really say that I know it because I keep having to go back and re-read various parts.  As I am reading his conversations with various devotees in the form of questions and answers, and paying attention two it, it takes no more than 15 minutes for me to be consumed by the words. Simply reading it makes me somewhat high and I can't really pinpoint what it is about it that causes that in me. Is it my imagination, my expectation, or something else? The conversations don't really take me to the level of seeing or hearing things, but they certainly cause something like a light bulb or switch to be turned on. Reading anything else does not cause the same reaction—even other material that I happen to be passionate about.

In addition to what I've just said, I would like to add that I have not always been affected by these things the same way. So what happened in time to make me subject to such a thing?

I understand that I am not alone when it comes to this kind of reaction.

I would like to know if you have heard of any scientific experiments on this phenomenon. It would be interesting to know the results. I guess it would not be too difficult to conduct a double-blind study to make someone think that they are reading Ramana instead of some other Guru, which may not cause this kind of reaction on the individual.

I am not clear about the situation you're describing.  Is your friend there in the physical realm next to you as you project and that makes you uncomfortable?  If so, simply practice in isolation.  Or is he following you in the projection or in your dreams? If so, this means you may not really want your friend to leave due to some fear of the unknown?

For example, yesterday I was attacked by a demon that wouldn't let me move. I was already out of my body and he tried to possess me.

Ensoñador, perhaps you should stop right there as that was your actual experience and anything we say about it falls under the area of speculation.

¿Was these a sleep paralysis experience mixed up with my imagination, or did that attack really happen and that being was not in my mind but in another dimension of the real? I think both hypotheses are right. It was a demon from another realm, but also a part of me. It depends on which perspective do I want to believe, and I keep both, for I want to see the whole scenario not just part of it.

If you look at the rest closely, it is full of holes no matter which way you go.  The best you could do is find out what YOU want from it, if indeed YOU want something from this experience. Do you want to know who the demon is? Ask him the next time or ask any other demon the next time.  Do you want to destroy it? Make a valiant effort to do so the next time or simply tell it to go away. Do you think he is from another dimension? Wait and follow it and see where it goes. Of course, many of these are easier said than done. If the demon is indeed a part of you, what part of you is it and why does it separate from you? These are some of the simple questions you may inquire about.

Greetings.

I am not an Astral Traveler although I have had certain experiences.  But last night, after a long while, I came back to visit and quickly entered the FAQ section. Needless to say, I became attracted by Frank's model of consciousness which I find to be quite interesting.

My comment is this to Frank and the others.  As I am slightly familiar with the philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein, I have notice a connection between Focus 4oC and the following from the Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. Could it be that Focus 4oC maybe seen as the writing of all possibilities for all things?

2.012 In logic nothing is accidental: if a thing can occur in a state of affairs, the possibility of the state of affairs must be written into the thing itself.

2.0121 It would seem to be a sort of accident, if it turned out that a situation would fit a thing that could already exist entirely on its own. If things can occur in states of affairs, this possibility must be in them from the beginning. (Nothing in the province of logic can be merely possible. Logic deals with every possibility and all possibilities are its facts.) Just as we are quite unable to imagine spatial objects outside space or temporal objects outside time, so too there is no object that we can imagine excluded from the possibility of combining with others. If I can imagine objects combined in states of affairs, I cannot imagine them excluded from the possibility of such combinations.

2.0122 Things are independent in so far as they can occur in all possible situations, but this form of independence is a form of connexion with states of affairs, a form of dependence. (It is impossible for words to appear in two different roles: by themselves, and in propositions.)

The problems with validation, even in a story such as Stone's, is that in the Astral, it becomes very difficult to distinguish what is a physical experience and what is an Astral experience.  The validation itself may have just occurred in a dream of been awake.  Such dreams are very possible.  

It would be better to make efforts to validate using a more scientific method where the subject does not even know that he is being tested--like a double-blind test.  Also, the tester does not even know what he is testing.  This is necessary because we all trick ourselves to maintain our identity (our own set of beliefs) and to satisfy our needs.

None of the testimonials regarding Natalia Demkina can be thought of as scientific valid until she submits to a double-blind test.  I don't believe any of her tests so far have gone this far--completely disconnecting the subject from the tester, and recording both hits and misses during the test.

I wouldn't take media testimonials too seriously.  It's all about the ratings.

I also had a similar experience.  After reading an article by TL in the experiences section on this site, I had two lucid dreams for the first time that same night.  Some time passed since and I had not had another lucid dream until last night.  Yesterday, it happened that I was reading topics on this site also.

On the possessions issue, do you believe in possessions?  If so, you are already possessed.  It is the belief that possesses you or the acceptance of the belief suggested by someone else.

Soon you will realize that what you think and believe is really you: what you've accepted to be true.  Probably what is happening now to you is that many of your basic beliefs are being questioned and some of those are been destroyed due to inconsistency with these new experiences.  So you feel the need to put something else in their place because you may be afraid.

Just keep in mind that just because you found one thing to be false or be questioned, it does not mean that everything else is false or that other things around it are valid also.

I suggest you don't give it much thought and just relax.  In fact, ignore the fear when it comes.  It will eventually go away and you will not even think about the issue until someone else brings it up.  Thoughts are just like animals, if you feed them, they will come back for more; and if you don't feed them, they will either go away or feed on you.  So don't feed this possession beast.  Simply run away from it.

I then tried to will my feet to let go of me, and the next thing i knew i was wide awake, and totally IB. ( in body, new abbreviation for you abbreviation lovers !

Joerii, you assumed your feet were preventing you.  This led you to try to control the physical from the imagination.  Part of our day-to-day or physical experience is the control of the physical by thinking or wanting.  Maybe this is why you were returned to the body.

How about requesting to see your entire physical body?  Or thinking to yourself "I want to see my entire physical body."  I imagine you would have to be out of the physical body to see it.  The key may be to think of something that would require you to be out of your body.  This may happen spontaneously or in a guided way.  Just keep in mind that you are very creative also.  In the process, you may come up with very interesting ways to counteract that (for example, in the case of ending up with 2 bodies).

Of course, you would not be seeing the physical body but a projection of it--in any case (AWAKE or SLEEP).

I guess theological books, if interpreted historically, are a good source of numerous stories on dreams, projections, the astrals, etc.  Especially, Eastern mythology is filled with stories whereas Western tends to suppress these a bit.  

The Vedas in Hinduism have many stories.  The history of the Buhdda is also a good source.

Western books like the Talmud, the Bible, the Koran, have good stories on dreams but not actually trying to induce the experiences.

Some books that treat mythology in General might me those by Joseph Campbell, Gore Vidal (who mixes history with fiction).

"Yes, it seems that the secret message behind all this "we march to the beat of a different drum" cr@p is that DNA could be activated by scientific means for spiritual effects."

It appears to me that science and religion (spirituality) are clearly devided on this issue.  But most people, although they seem inclined against science, are putting their money on science; for example, the human genome project, cloning, stem-cell research, etc.

The truth is that over the years, science has been more consistent in delivering results than the spirits.  Grant it that these results may not always be favorable.

I believe ophthalmologists have a therapy now where they have you wear glasses that are not as strong.  You may inquire about that.  Maybe get a weaker pair and go on the reverse gradually.

After doing some energy work (wearing contact lenses at the time) my vision seems to have improved.  Also, I experienced some periods of very good vision for temporary moments.

I have been wearing contact lenses and glasses since I was 12.  That is over twenty years ago.  So you might imagine how poor my vision is by now.

I also read a book about exercises for the eyes which includes breathing exercises and posture improvements, among other things.  I can't remember the title now.  I'll see if I can find it when I get home tonight.  The book is based on this idea of weaning yourself out of the glasses gradually by getting weaker prescriptions.

Could it simply be that the junk DNA in humans would be used if we humans were more like animals and less like humans?

I am not sure what is meant by "using only 10%" of the brain or 90% of the DNA is junk.  I would question these theories to start. Is this stiffling of life--assuming this limitation is lost of life or energy--something we slowly learn or a product of evolution?

And what about children, they seem to be closer to animals than adults.  They certainly exhibit more intelligence than adults--according to the dictionary definition of intelligence.  Also, they are always energetic.  Perhaps we should learn from them to reach anywhere.  They also don't have a concept of time which is one of the very adult constraints.  They certainly don't waste their energy thinking about things like death, consciousness, afterlife, spirits, God, money, health, etc.  This may all give them the ability to use the junk 90%. Maybe that's something that should be studied.

Telos, thank you for the link.  I understand the musings on philosophy on this post was casual.  

I myself am just beginning to look into various philosophical arguments and thus am not ready

for in dept discussions yet.  Although I admit I am very tempted to start which is probably part

of the reason why I mentioned Wittgenstein.  The people I have been exposed to are Kant, Hegel,

Webber, Hume, and many others.  However, I am now starting to look at thinkers from the 20th

century like Wittgenstein and Russell among some spiritual ones like Papaji, J and UG

Krishnamurti's, etc.

I was more interested in the link than anything else at this point.  Even though I am interested

in philosophy, as well.

Again, many thanks.

Hey Telos, have you located the books by Ludwig Josef Johann Wittgenstein on-line.  Are they on the Wiki?  

I found some Bertrand Russell, one of his teachers, but no actual books on him yet.

I've read some reviews of Wittgenstein on-line but not the actual source.  It seems to me that he blows it all away.

Thanks.

It appears to me that the "is just a dream" criticism is not based on the dream vs. reality aspect of things. Instead, it attacks the value of these experiences in connection with anything spiritual.  If someone were to say "hay I saw an alien in a dream," it is very implicit that the experience is of less value than if the person said "hay I had a vision of an alien today."  So when labeling these experiences dreams, the critics are questioning its intrinsic value.

Even in the highly material world that we live in, we find that the ability to control and use dreams is of great value.  So you see, the question is not really about the value of dreams.  Instead, it is a very old debate.  It is about whether or not there is something beyond the physical.

So to say that it is just a dream is the same as saying that it is your imagination, or that it is because of the drugs you're taking, or because your crazy, and on and on...  It is a simple disbelief in something beyond.

MadLordNad, have you had any success at all trying to achieve these states?

In my case, I have not even tried and some unexplained things have happened to me.  For example, the dreams I described in this post.  All I did was read some stuff on-line here and that night it happened.  

What is more interesting is that the times that I've purposefully tried, nothing has happened.

My feeling is that some initial door needs to open for these experiences to begin; and for newer experiences to start, other doors need to open.  I am not suggesting anything mystical nor special about my case.  It may simply be that we need to envision the possibility of something beyond what we think is real. Also, as easily as the door opens, it can be closed again.  At least, that explains why I can not recreate the experiences that easily.

T.L.  thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

T.L. you said "one huge difference is I could read and write when I was in what I call the environments.."  

Were you simply trying to maintain a good memory of what you were viewing or were you taking actual notes on paper?  

Just interested in knowing if these experiences can actually be documented on paper as they are happening.  The reason is because I tend to forget my dreams or certain details of them.

One interesting thing that happened to me after reading this article is that I experienced two lucid dreams for the first time.  I don't know if I am using the right terminology.  But I basicly started dreaming and soon after the dream began, I realized that I was dreaming.  This dream lasted what appeared to be a significant amount of time.

Immediately when I realized I was dreaming (became lucid), I felt a strange sensation, like an impulse to awake which lasted a bit of time but I somehow managed to stay in the dream and also remain conscious.  At this point I simply followed the dream.  I met a child I don't know in this dream and I asked him his name.  All this was me consciously probing. Is this conscious activity another aspect of this reality?

Strangely, the child in the dream (he was about 10 years old) was not responsive to my question.  So I tried to rephrase the question.  I asked him "Is your name Martin?"  He did not reply in the positive nor the negative.  He was more interested in his own agenda, in finding someone.  The person he looked for is named "Consuelo."  He also said the lady's last name, but I only recall it vaguely.  

The rest of the dream I walked with the child by the hand, not looking for Consuelo yet because I was naked all the time and trying to find clothes.  Do you think it was possible for me to create clothers in this state?  During this dream I chose not to change this because I wanted not to disturb the experience.  Would I have done that if I did?

There were other characters in the dream and I can not recall all of them.  They were mostly family members except for one other strange character who was indifferent to us.

By the way, the whole night began in a state where I was sort of going to sleep feeling myself going to sleep (sort of awake in the process).

After this dream I could not sleep for a few hours.  When I finally did, I immediately became aware, and it seems like I initiated the dream.  This dream was an erotic one and I felt myself feeling something that immediately caused something else to happen.  Meaning I caused a character in the dream to satisfy my desire.  So I could feel myself creating the dream.  Could the first spontaneous dream have been created the same way, except I didn't quite notice it?

The next day (Sunday) I felt tired from not having slept the whole night.  And I tried sleeping the whole day to try to go back to the first dream.  Even though I did get a lot of rest, I did not manage to dream at all.  At least I am not aware of it.

I remember one time when the vibrations became so high that I felt my heart skip. Is this also expected sometimes?  And is it explained the same way as above?

Willis and Michael,

Perhaps this is where you two finally meet on the physical. Good luck and "get to work".

CaCoDeMoN, here's the simple mystery of it all.  While in the midst of some trance or whatever state you're in, a figure suddenly appears.  The figure is visually (or sensually) vivid like you won't believe; it mixes with your present reality and gives you the answers to your questions.

Where did the figure come from?  Knowing that you're immediate attention was certainly not on it, you wonder in amazement.  Did I make it up? If so, how?  It can go on and on.  More elaborate landscapes come alive in the midst of realities.

No amount of science or reasoning at our disposal explains this. Call it hallucinations; call it dreams, or what you like.  Names don't even come close.  The nature of it is simply beyond what we can imagine.

The next question is simple:  What now?  The answer is also simple:  succumb to its mystery, or try to explain it and rationalize it.  Certainly, we cannot dismiss its power.  That is why we're here.

Greetings.

Tayesin, I must admit that you were in another plane as you wrote this.  This has given me a lot to think about.

Thank you.

Telos wrote "Those cold fusion predictions sound cool though!"

Except that they are not predictions but taken directly from some sites or articles on the net almost word for word.  This is science fiction kind of stuff.

The articles I looked at date back to March 4, 2004 which places it in the past.  Also, the reading says to expect significant discoveries within the next two days.  Any of them out yet?

Good try!

Also, the reader read:

"Some have asked, "Why are they in Hebrew? Why are they not in an older language such as Lemurian or perhaps Sumerian?" The answer: Go find a dictionary of Sumerian and Lemurian and we might do that... but there is no such thing. So the core language of the planet that is most understood, the most profound, and that has the seeds of creation, is Hebrew. So this is where we go and you'll see science doing it, too, for they understand how profound it is."

Please note that according to Wickipedia, an Internet encyclopedia, "The Vedas are acknowledged to be the world's first recorded scripture, and are perhaps the oldest consistent and complex body of knowledge detailing astrology, astronomy, ritual practice, and how these relate to the spiritual life of humanity."

In a discussion with other members of this forum, I alluded to the connection between consistency and "reality"?  Is there a connection?  Is consistency what we base our arguments on?  Or is consistency another assumption of the prevailing physical "reality"?

The subject of that discussion is "Television and OBE":

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16088

Logic, I am not so sure "reality is what you make it."  It appears to me that reality makes you and there is little choice in the matter.  Judging from a lot of the experiences of individuals on this site and throughout life, it looks like control is not in us.  Some say it is nature operating on us and some say it is mystical or transcendental.  At any given moment, the unanticipated arises, especially when we feel most secure and confident.