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I'll bite. :]

Scary experiences are usually referred to as dwellers on the threshold. It's a terrifying scenario some people face before the OBE. Whether you had such an experience, I don't know. The craziness of your experience isn't unusual, though in my case I have such experiences during lucid dreams.

Congratulations on your WTF moment : p

Regarding physical positions, I've had one or two experiences wherein my physical body crosses its legs (not in a lotus fashion, which for clarification we shall say is horizontal) but vertically, straight down the bed with my arms folded over one another. This doesn't relate directly to your experience however as for me this is a physical occurrence.

The roaring/screeching sound could have been anything. I used to experience it a lot at first, the screeching happened a few times at the end of an OBE. Some people experience a roaring just before it begins. Had you been fully lucid, I suspect that you would have experienced the dramatic earth-shaking vibrations some of us will have felt at one point or another.

Even blind people see images. The visual cortex is alive and kicking despite the sensory information from the eyes not reaching it. Phosphenes (if they do arise in the brain) are still visible to them.

Astr0Man,

congratulations on the resurfacing of an important memory. Five seconds is perfectly normal for these events, especially the first few times we consciously experience them. Why they start off being so short, I'm not sure. Can you remember how you felt, surprised, scared etc (you said you screamed)?

As for interpreting the dream, can you remember the question? Why was your answer so enthusiastic?

I'm very happy for you and wish you luck in future endeavours.

Doubt can ruin many things, and it's also a convenient way of pushing something under the carpet (not that you are). Most people don't relate to such phenomena, they come up with all sorts of explanations but none of them are complete. Notice how proud they are when they explain away your most wondrous experiences, convincing themselves that there's nothing they should be paying attention to.

At one point, people couldn't talk about such things for fear of being branded insane, yet as time goes on such accounts are becoming more prevalent and people are starting to sit up and take notice. Don't be discouraged by researchers who say it's been sussed. They have to seem confident otherwise they can't secure funding, such is the way of academia.

The problem a lot of us have, or have gone through, is that we live on one end of the spectrum. We are either extreme sceptics or fervent believers. Neither is conducive to understanding what is happening and the universe certainly doesn't care if you're one or the other. The extreme sceptics aren't sceptics as such, real ones are extremely rare and when you find them, they understand how things work (in terms of how people think). They play to the consensus but slowly introduce findings which are more controversial. They know there's a game to be played, you have to hold the hands of the current establishment and lead them through their ignorance otherwise they'll remain arrogant forever.

On the flip side, we have people who believe every new age concept they come across. For them, if it includes the word 'love', it must be true. They haven't even examined the word or realised that, in some languages, there are six ways of interpreting it. Which of those do they mean, and does it apply all the time?

The brain does many things. If certain centres show activity during 'autoscopy' (the word hardly does it justice), that is to be expected. We experience this environment through our brains and it will always be processing information for as long as these bodies are animated. This is the nature of our reality. Most people don't relate to anything else, they're just being human. Recent research has shown that the centres thought to be responsible for emotion are, in fact, not. Yet it was accepted at first because it made sense to the current way of thinking.   

Is there life after death?

If you want to believe that there is life after death, read accounts of people who have experienced the NDE. You still won't know who to trust.
If you want to disbelieve that there is life after death, adopt materialist/nihilist philosophy and call yourself a man of science. You still won't know who to trust.

To the brain, what is the difference between knowing something and believing something? - Nothing.
According to nihilism and materialism, if you go deep enough, what should be here? - Nothing.

It's about you at the end of the day and what you come to believe. Maintain an open mind and keep asking questions. You're in a good place, you're no longer at the poles. It just takes time to adjust.






     

 

If you ever have one of these experiences, the first feelings you get will be of shock and alarm. You can 'practice' techniques which will increase the regularity at which they occur but it is more than likely that you will never get to any meaningful level. The classroom scenario is light years away, there might be people who can do that sort of thing at will but they don't frequent places like this because they can see clearly that there's a lot of confusion and ego.

If you have an interest in this, then that's enough. My first conscious experience came after I spent a good deal of time mocking the idea.

To go further into your classroom scenario, it will never happen. It's too mundane, you will have other things on your mind when you find yourself in this state. You will have other things to contend with, fears, desires, ideals etc... It will take many experiences before you can even begin to take hold.

At the end of the day, OBE's are a side effect of energy cultivation. The phenomena you experience aren't that important but they're good markers, sometimes at least. The reason we focus on OBEs so much is that no one really understands them yet and it's something akin to a wake up call. The further people progress, the more it seems as though they're being watched/guided. Whether it's a subconscious filter of some sort, I don't know. Beware people who vie for authority over this subject, they may have started off having these experiences but I can almost guarantee you that by the time they start writing books like "Our Ultimate Reality" and advertising other products that have nothing to do with any of this that they've lost it all.

It is alarming.

It's been a while since I last posted here and these threads bring back many memories.

The following is based on my own experience of life and is by no means an objective truth, think what you will.

To atraveler, it's not as simple as having one validation experience, or even many. As time passes, we begin to doubt ourselves. As we meet new people, who are unable to relate to our experiences, we tend to conform to how we perceive that social group might expect us to be/act (not so different, those two words). It's dangerous to linger with one crowd for too long, we have a tendency to stagnate and lose sight of our true goal (to explore and make known the unknown), substituting the general consensus in it's stead. Even hanging around these forums here can be bad for you. I remember, when I first began this 'journey', how frustrated I was that other people were achieving these incredible experiences so effortlessly whilst I was constantly trying to force something to happen. I was too excited to even realise that when it did happen, it came about of it's own accord. I have only ever, successfully, forced the experience once and it was a stupid thing to do, though I was desperate at the time (I ought to say now before people start 'thinking', no drugs were involved).

Of course, the point you're making is that it only needs to be done once under controlled conditions, with the results recorded so as to refute all doubt. This is a perfectly reasonable request and I don't know how to answer it without seeming as though I'm making excuses. So, reader, roll your eyes if it makes you feel comfortable - there's no reason to be tense.

Again, this is as I see things ('woo' or not):

It's not as simple as projecting consciousness, you need a state of mind - not just temporary stability but something that's been cultivated over a period of time. The best way I can describe the cultivation process is "via the clever use of emotions".

You need to be prepared to 'blow it all', this would assert that I'm quantifying something here - I am but it's difficult to describe, the closest word I can think of is 'favour'. This is why repeat experiences are so difficult to 'achieve' for some people. You need to build a deep relationship with yourself first (perhaps this does something to the projected double, I'm not sure).

The whole thing is one giant exercise in focus, integrity and awareness, and I'm not talking about staring at candles for hours on end. You don't need to be in complete control of your thoughts for these experiences to happen, as long as you're aware that you're having a certain thought it's enough. If you're aware for long enough (without trying to force a change), your subconscious starts to take notice that you're 'present' and then you set something very important in motion - the ability to remember what goes on 'behind the scenes'. Dream recollection is made easier by this as well as other things. You start to notice things about your body that you might not have before, the flow of blood becomes very evident for one thing (I assume it's the flow of blood, it's a current you can feel running through your entire body) - Daoism has some very interesting literature on this phenomenon.

I could write so much more than this but it's only going to get more confusing. Without experiencing it, it's all BS to many, for that reason alone I'm not doing any more at the moment. Enjoy the confusion :[

Edit: I'm talking about achieving a recognizable RTZ experience, it can be a natural state of mine, of that I have no doubt, but the variables - too many arrgh etc...

Go with the flow, unravel the mystery without trying to force it. Make an attempt to communicate, be clever with your use of emotions, and don't panic etc...

No one is sure if the karma system works.

How did you figure it was your subconscious?

Have you been reading similar experiences?

Thank you for sharing this.

Your first example is one I'm familiar with though I don't know what to attribute it to. Interactions are very strange in that state. The next time I realise I'm there, I'll just move very slowly before deciding what to do next. ;p

The noises came on when I started trying to focus on an object. I immediately started thinking "crap, what have I done now" etc...

Hehe, sounds like fun. I've experienced the mind split a number of times but not in public like that. Although one time, after I had just achieved lucidity, I felt my senses dulling quickly again, as though I was forcibly being put to sleep. I kept jumping up and down with my hands in the air to stay awake while this giant insect was trying to buzz around my head, ah good times.

The only time I've experienced what you describe is during sleep paralysis. I've seen people appear next to my bed, looking down, with me being unable to move. It may sound cowardly but I keep my eyes shut a lot during sleep paralysis, it's just that if I see what's there I can't ignore it and I become fixated. I've seen all sorts of things when waking up, sometimes people standing in my doorway and I can focus on them for a good few seconds, just long enough before I realize that I ought to be shocked. Other times, stranger things such as symbols and the like.

Regarding encounters of your kind, I don't know enough to say anything worth taking seriously. I have had experiences when people got too close to my personal space but my focus is usually on making sure I don't get too nervous. I don't want to distort things out of fear and create a regrettable scenario. I did meet someone who appeared to be afraid of me while I was 'out', I just slowly backed away with my arms apart in order to communicate that I wasn't there to cause trouble for her. I have had a sexual encounter with someone who looked like one of my friends from a few years back, what looked to be a lifeless body suddenly became animated and grabbed my hand so that I couldn't move and began kissing me.

These are some of the more confusing moments, I don't know what to say. I am suspicious of anything that assumes the guise of a person I know without communicating from a 'distance' first.

Creating scenarios in the astral doesn't always go smoothly. A lot of it depends on how excited you get I find, but most of it has to do with preparation beforehand (although this comes closer to phasing). I've stayed in the same area for what seems like a good few minutes without being able to manifest anything at times. Lucid dreams and false awakenings also present some problems for me as the only thing I tend to care about is creating scenarios. Obviously I'm missing the point and there's something else to be done/experienced in that environment. My most direct manifestation came during sleep paralysis, it took about one second to start but I only attempted to create an auditory phenomena of some kind (in this example 'alien sounds', purposely to scare myself). The biggest grin swept over my face when I realised it came in answer to my request. Had I not been prepared I would have been very upset.

I haven't had much luck getting to the 'sandbox' environment, or rather, when I'm there it's never for long but the experiences are incredible. I specifically try to avoid involving/imagining other people as I'm more than happy to be alone in those situations. So much to experiment with/express with etc... Creating new bodies for myself is where it's at

Robert Bruce seems to insist that firmly stating a command will do the trick. It's something I should keep trying I feel.

Would you rather have a lucid-dream that changes your life, or an OBE that is pointless?

That depends entirely on the change. An OBE that is pointless is still another chance to experience the rush you get from a fully immersive experience; they're always life changing if you know how to appreciate them.

The issue here is not one of preference, not many people are able to distinguish between the two as they've never had a fully conscious OBE, they may have had lucid dreams of the concept but it's not the same, as similar as they might seem on paper.

Truly conscious immersion is fantastic.

Venus, new to the community or not, if you can tell the difference between the two then you're in a very good position. A fully immersive experience feels far more real than anything else, so fresh and clear.

There's a lot of confusion regarding this.

Regarding self improvement (rather than personal gain), I don't see anything wrong with it. The reason I moved into this was so I could truly explore myself and my thoughts, 'improving' myself in the process. My first projection damaged me very badly, leaving me very depressed and with a feeling of extreme vertigo which lasted about a month. That experience 'configured me', giving me time for reflection and making a decision regarding my priorities in life.

The first thing I did after consciously projecting was to promise myself that I would confront the worst that could happen. This is the realm of the taboo, I created terrifying scenarios in an attempt to desensitize myself to them. Isn't it fantastic that something out there knows how to push all of our buttons. The entire spectrum, ecstasy to terror. Where should we be on that scale?

People often seek out emotional highs but expose themselves to the complete opposite. It's incredible, you change so much. Years later we're tested again except this time we're prepared and pass with flying colours. 'Don't react', so easy to say but not to do. When you next experience anything like this you'll be so much more balanced. Watch it carefully and look for the source of it, when you find it try to communicate with it and watch what happens. It's not the images and sounds you need to focus on.

You believe this hasn't been done?

You'd be better off having a personalized session. At least then the approach is a bit more dynamic than listening to tapes over and over.

Who knows. :]

Obviously, I think it's important to enjoy life. I don't have anything to add when it comes to this sort of thing. I do doubt, however, that it's possible to 'cease existing'. When people don't appreciate life they tend to sedate themselves in all sorts of ways, be it through addiction to substances or refusing to acknowledge oneself and moving into self pity etc...

In this sense it's possible to operate from a state in which you are less self aware, that is to say you are less conscious. You can, perhaps, become dormant but the spark of inspiration is what will bring you out of that state. If you existed, then you cannot cease to exist as time is not something that exists independently of human perception. All things are happening all at once.

Taoism. - They pretty much turned it into a science.

I shall watch this thread with great interest. 

If you're more aware of your surroundings and internal thought processes, then you would be good at lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming depends somewhat on a state of alertness, that's unless you were conscious of the entire transition from the moment you were physically awake. In this case you've just gone along with the flow and got off at that particular spot.

I've been listening to some programs about astral travel, so this morning i attempted it. I woke up this morning and was really tired, so I started falling asleep again, but I tried to keep my mind awake. My body eventually went into sleep paralysis, but my mind stayed reasonably conscious...although not totally. I tried to separate my astral body from my physical body....it was very hard at first, but then i felt my hands lift out of my body. Then suddenly I started feeling vibrations throughout my body, starting at my hands. I focused harder and harder, and suddenly and very quickly I left my body...hovering just above it. I told myself to go to the door and I did. On the way, I noticed one of my shirts on the bedroom floor.

During the OBE, my vision was very cloudy and dream-like. I couldn't see very clearly, so I tried to open my eyes more...but as soon as I did that, I was back in my body in bed. Later, I noticed that the pink shirt I saw during my OBE was NOT actually there! So now I'm wondering:

1. Was the whole experience just a dream?? How can I tell apart a dream from an OBE?
2. Does our mind create things that we see during an OBE, or can we actually see what is really there in the physical world?
3. Do the vibrations actually occur or is it just a sensory illusion within our nervous system?
4. During the OBE, what is your vision supposed to look like? Mine wasn't very clear...it was cloudy and dream like. Is there any way to have clearer vision?

I really need these questions answered! Please help!

What one 'sees' is rarely a perfect replica of what we observe while 'awake'. This is due to all sorts of variables but the end result is a domain we refer to as the real time zone/RTZ (high percentage synchronization with events occuring in the physical). It resembles the physical world we're all familiar with yet it follows very different laws and it's because of this that discrepancies arise. Subconsciously, yes, we do interfere with the experience as our minds make an attempt to understand everything in a linear sense, a single flow of time in three dimensions. Physical objects are more than they appear, you can interact with them in any way you choose, be it through speaking or thinking. We're used to doing things a certain way so in our early stages we attempt to recreate the feeling of walking as our primary means of navigating the environment. It's for this same reason that we assume things are meant to be a certain way and we allow ourselves to be easily confused/shocked by anything we consider to be out of place.

People experience vision in a number of different ways. In the early stages very few have vision similar to what they're used to. In my case everything was pitch black with only a silver outline of certain objects being visible. Some people experience 360 degree vision, I have only experienced this briefly as it was followed by a screetching sound in the back of my 'head' which made me lose all concentration, bringing an end to the session. I've experienced blindness but a sense of knowing the layout of the entire environment perfectly. Initially I was frightened but as I calmed down things started to become clear and I understood where I was and how to explore the area.

The vibrations/resistance are not physical, neither are they an illusion.

It may have been a dream, if you're asking that question. Immersion varies depending on the energy invested, the greatest moments being when the sense of existing in that reality is vastly greater than in day to day life.

Welcome to the fringe.

In short, yes.

Is it the most effective way? No.

Train yourself to observe without judgement and be still for long periods of time.