Are 2012 calculations correct?

[grizli]

Some claims that Maya calendar is not accurately recalculated to western calendar: What do you think?

So ... ok

here is link for the dream I had recently

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_dreams/strange_dreams_intense_light-t25497.0.html

[Awakened_Mind]

There has been a little controversy of whether the calendar finishes Dec 12th 2012 or Oct 11th? 2011.

-AM

[Hannah b]

Yes, it is an ongoing debate... http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/2012/id/1726

It doesn't matter if it's 2012, 2011 0r 2020...the change IS already happening, so the "peak point" will just be a cherry on top of a pie 

[the fool on the hill]

2012- the day of saturn will come the apocalypse. i think

[the fool on the hill]

those who can feel their vibrations might be saved though. an old man told me once that those who want to be saved should go to the tallest mountains

[grizli]

Dont spread fear about earth distrucition and death

WHO is dying at the first place?!

Just be CALM, and dont be afraid of anything: what is going to happen it will happen with your concern about it or without, its the same

Those part of yout beings that is mortal is already dead, it is just an illusion, but your true self is "above" life and death

[Adrian]

Hello Awakened Mind,

There has been a little controversy of whether the calendar finishes Dec 12th 2012 or Oct 11th? 2011.

-AM

It is 2012. The 2011 date originated from Carl Calleman on what appears to be incomplete data.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[shadow.pulsar]

Some claims that Maya calendar is not accurately recalculated to western calendar: What do you think?

Okay, I'll through my hat into it here with my rather different opinion backed by common sense...

There is no 2012. I don't mean the year, that will come and go in our calender, what I mean is the end of the Mayan calender.

The Mayan's based their entire calender on very precise calculations made when the Earth's axis had no wobble. The Earth has a wobble now and that changes the passage of time so significantly that when coupled with the inaccuracies of the many calenders that have come since, the Mayan calender is unable to be used in this day and time.

Essentially, the Mayan calender ended when they did.

[Awakened_Mind]

Do you have any sites in regards to the wobble of the earth, when it began, how it effects the time around the sun?

I was under the impression the Gregorian calendar was still accurate.

-AM

[shadow.pulsar]

Do you have any sites in regards to the wobble of the earth, when it began, how it effects the time around the sun?

I was under the impression the Gregorian calendar was still accurate.

-AM

I didn't get it from a website I got it from a book that was written by an academic who set out to prove what happened to Atlantis. I don't remember the title or author off the top of my head so I'll browse amazon.com for you to see if I can find it. The book is filled with proven and undisputed scientific fact that he took from various sources and correlated together to prove where Atlantis was, what happened to it, and why. In my opinion he gets the job done fantastically.

Also, if the Gregorian calendar was ever accurate we would not have to adjust it every 4 years with a short February. Also keep in mind that it originated from the Julian calendar which was arbitrarily made so that the most powerful lords of Ceaser's time had the most days in their months (that February guy must of really sucked), instead of using science to calculate time properly.  The Gregorian calendar is not based on any scientific fact, it is simply an extension of the Julian Calendar.  The most accurate calendar the we can get now is a lunar based one, but then you have to make corrections for season drift. All that is due to the fact that the Earth has a wobble, which throws off any time based calculations that does not take that into consideration.

I'll go find that book now.  Man if only I was home right now I'd just pull it off the shelf...

[shadow.pulsar]

I'll go find that book now.  Man if only I was home right now I'd just pull it off the shelf...

Here we go.  It is called Atlantis of the West by Paul Dunbavin. I'll provide an excerpt below.
Here is the link from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Atlantis-West-Britains-Megalithic-Civilization/dp/0786711450/sr=1-1/qid=1171374162/ref=sr_1_1/105-8808968-4587633?ie=UTF8&s=books

Here is the excerpt:

Do Welsh legends of lost cities beneath the sea match Plato's descriptions of the island civilization of Atlantis? Do Irish myths of a golden age when the eastern Irish Sea was a flowery plain describe the same place Herodotus said disappeared beneath the waves during a single day and night of geological upheaval millennia before Ancient Greece? Author and researcher Paul Dunbavin has embarked on a multidisciplinary investigation into how science could explain such a catastrophe and how modern archaeological findings point to a possible location for lost Atlantis. This book theorizes that the Middle Neolithic period around 5,000 years ago was a time of dramatic climate and sea-level changes all around the world. From an up-to-date scientific perspective, Dunbavin distills an array of significant geological theories and then examines the archaeological and mythological record-which together leads to a lost land thousands of years ago in the Irish Sea that was still mentioned in ancient Welsh histories recorded in the sixth century. Atlantis of the West presents a remarkable congruence of evidence from multiple disciplines to link the fabled lost Atlantis with the vanished Neolithic civilization of the megalithic builders. Maps and illustrations are included.

[3588897]

Okay, I'll through my hat into it here with my rather different opinion backed by common sense...

There is no 2012. I don't mean the year, that will come and go in our calender, what I mean is the end of the Mayan calender.

The Mayan's based their entire calender on very precise calculations made when the Earth's axis had no wobble. The Earth has a wobble now and that changes the passage of time so significantly that when coupled with the inaccuracies of the many calenders that have come since, the Mayan calender is unable to be used in this day and time.

Essentially, the Mayan calender ended when they did.

The Earth has always had a wobble. Ever since the Moon formed the Earth has had a wobble. In fact the last major tilt was just 2,000 years ago, and the Mayan callender was written sometime around 700-1500 years ago as far as I know.

[MisterJingo]

The Earth has always had a wobble. Ever since the Moon formed the Earth has had a wobble. In fact the last major tilt was just 2,000 years ago, and the Mayan callender was written sometime around 700-1500 years ago as far as I know.

Yup, http://www.museum.state.il.us/exhibits/ice_ages/tilt_graph.html . Don't quote me on it, but I think it has been found that the Earth has 2 wobbles. One takes a vey long term to cycle, the other is shorter (but still takes a long time).

[shadow.pulsar]

The Earth has always had a wobble. Ever since the Moon formed the Earth has had a wobble. In fact the last major tilt was just 2,000 years ago, and the Mayan calender was written sometime around 700-1500 years ago as far as I know.

There is a reason the Mayans are typically referred to as an ancient civilization. They were around from 2600BCE to 13CE. 2600BCE is their earliest appearance and 13CE is when they disappeared. From 6CE to 13CE their culture was in decline and then wiped out. Remnants of their people were scatted for quite a while after that date, however I speculate that they didn't create the calendar at that time. I could not find a date for the creation of the Mayan calendar, however one would expect it to be created rather early in the civilizations history. I would say around 1000BCE to be conservative, possibly earlier.

Using your calculations above, that would put the Mayan calendars appearance at around 500CE - 510CE, about 500 years after their decline.  Kind of obvious that they weren't around then. Also that puts the last major axial tilt at 7CE which highlights the event that caused the downfall of Mayan civilization in the first place.

That means the Mayan calendar was created during a time of axial stability. Once the axial tilt event occurred their calendar became inaccurate as it changed how time was measured. Just imagine what it was like before the tilt, when the seasons ran on a predictable 7 and 13 year cycle. Easy weather prediction? Crop planting predictions? Life must of been hell for them when the tilt occurred as we don't have that nice 7 and 13 year pattern anymore.

At any rate there is always a possibility that I am wrong but as I said I thought I'd just propose and odd sort of theory on the whole 2012 thing.

[3588897]

There is a reason the Mayans are typically referred to as an ancient civilization. They were around from 2600BCE to 13CE. 2600BCE is their earliest appearance and 13CE is when they disappeared. From 6CE to 13CE their culture was in decline and then wiped out. Remnants of their people were scatted for quite a while after that date, however I speculate that they didn't create the calendar at that time. I could not find a date for the creation of the Mayan calendar, however one would expect it to be created rather early in the civilizations history. I would say around 1000BCE to be conservative, possibly earlier.

Using your calculations above, that would put the Mayan calendars appearance at around 500CE - 510CE, about 500 years after their decline.  Kind of obvious that they weren't around then. Also that puts the last major axial tilt at 7CE which highlights the event that caused the downfall of Mayan civilization in the first place.

That means the Mayan calendar was created during a time of axial stability. Once the axial tilt event occurred their calendar became inaccurate as it changed how time was measured. Just imagine what it was like before the tilt, when the seasons ran on a predictable 7 and 13 year cycle. Easy weather prediction? Crop planting predictions? Life must of been hell for them when the tilt occurred as we don't have that nice 7 and 13 year pattern anymore.

At any rate there is always a possibility that I am wrong but as I said I thought I'd just propose and odd sort of theory on the whole 2012 thing.

According to Wikipedia the Mayans were doing excellent up till 900 AD, with a collapse in 1050 AD. About the callender I looked it up on wikipedia just now and it said it dated back to 6th century BC, so you've got me there. I'm thinking that the callender may have been based on lunar years which would still make the mayan callender wrong. I'll have to research it some more tomorrow when I've got more time.

[Awakened_Mind]

So the Mayan's miscalculated the wobble. What about on a larger scale? Is there an allignment of other planetary and star systems in the universe surrounding this time? Is there a large sun storm cycle imminent? Is the weather a little out of the ordinary? The Schumann Resonance increasing? Evolution of consciousness?

Why do you state so objectively "There is no 2012." because of a minor miscalculation?

-AM

[shadow.pulsar]

Why do you state so objectively "There is no 2012." because of a minor miscalculation?

Please see below...

There is no 2012. I don't mean the year, that will come and go in our calender, what I mean is the end of the Mayan calender.

It wasn't a miscalculation... Their calendar was correct until the the axial tilt occurred that ended up wiping them out. Before the axial tilt occurred their calendar was spot on.  The reason I state that there is no 2012 is not that it will not happen. All that the Mayans spoke of regarding this date, at least some of it, will happen at some point, some of it is happening right now as this is read. The real question is will any of us be here to see it? Everyone is fixated on 2012, as if after it everything will change, everything will get better or worse, or it is when everyone will realize that something needs to be done and will actually get off of their rear and do something.  Time has changed... there is no Mayan 2012 anymore... We make our 2012 by our choices and actions.  Why wait until 2012 to make realizations? Why wait until then to do something to change the world. Why wait for some meteor to come before you try to help humanity and heal the Earth.

When will the next Ice age happen? When will the Earth turn into a giant desert because of global warming? When will our calendar end? These are questions we need to answer for ourselves, and not with some archaic calendar from a civilization that was wiped out ages ago. When we allow billions of tons of pollution to be poured into our atmosphere every day... We have nullified the calendar ourselves by our own actions, not just that of the Earth's axial tilt.  Will the end of the world or what ever the Mayan 2012 will be, happen tomorrow? in 2008? 2010? 2020? Never? Will we all be extinct when it happens?  It's up to us now... That is what I mean by there is no 2012.

[Awakened_Mind]

I don't see it as us simply making the choice or having the will. Humans already have the will to be the most advanced technological species in the galaxy. We already have the will to be dominate. This instict is largely driven by fear. We figure, as long as we are the most powerful, nothing can harm us. Assuming that we are the most peaceful and rational creatures in the universe.

My appreciation for the Mayan calendar does not necessarily revolve around concepts of time, such as the ending date. I tend to pay my respect to the evolution on consciousness. From monkeys bringing in concepts of family, to tribal, cultural, national, planetary etc. There is an exponential increase in these concepts that change the face of intelligent life.

The change that will take place tomorrow and the day after 2008 and 2010 will be, IMO, along this exponential line. As a civilisation we can only realize so much in day. The Mayan calendar is pretty much saying that all will be realized in 2012. Setting an approximate time.

I'm not sure about the end of the world but the way things are in the world at the moment, we are going to need a significant, history making change in the next 6 years.

-AM

[straydog2012]

Please see below...

Everyone is fixated on 2012, as if after it everything will change, everything will get better or worse, or it is when everyone will realize that something needs to be done and will actually get off of their rear and do something. 

Here is the motivation for your post, shadow pulsar...this explains it. An understandable frustration with some people's laying back and waiting for everything to be sorted for them, withouit having to do anything.

However, that frustration doesn't warrant inventing so-called facts to try and shift those people into doing something. This is manipulation and deceit.

Here are the facts:

The Long Count calendar originated between 240 and 55 BC, according to
various specialiasts. Some people would put it back as far as Olmecs
first appearance in 1800-1500 BC. Even if we go with the statements of
Sitchin, who puts it at the start of the 13-baktun cycle, in 3114 BC,
that is only about 5,120 years ago (5125 years before 2012)....

Dendrochronologists have compared many specimens of trees and formed a
continuous chronology. By matching up the patterns of growth rings,
which are formed each year and a "fully anchored chronology which
extends back 8500 years exists for the bristlecone pine in the
Southwest US (White Mountains of California)." Also,"fully anchored
chronologies which extend back more than 10,000 years exist for river
oak trees from South Germany (from the Main and Rhine rivers)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dendrochronology

Since the idea that the Earth had no tilt means that there would have
been no seasons (and no discernible solstices and equinoxes), that
means that all the ancient alignments to solstices and equinoxes would
be a coincidence. Also, there would be no tree rings, since these are
a result of the annual climatic variations due to tilt.

Even more to the point, if these were no seasons, then there would
have been no deciduous trees and plants with an annual or bi-annual
cycle. Remains of deciduous forests from the Permian period
(pre-dimosaurs)
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20041101/leaves.html
(290-248 million years ago) have been found, so that seems to knock
this theory over ...unless your distrust of geology means that you
think the Permian strata are actually only 5000 years old or less -
which implies that the Maya calendar pre-dates the dinosaurs!...(or
you believe YHVH created the world in 4004 BC).

Oh yes...and the Maya didn't "end" there are still about 6 million of
them, and they abandodned their cities between 800 AD and 900 AD, which is the end of the Classic era. They did not get "wiped out" in "13CE"! They moved down to the Yucatan, and the most likely reason according to archaeologists is a long-term drought.

[shadow.pulsar]

Here is the motivation for your post, shadow pulsar...this explains it. An understandable frustration with some people's laying back and waiting for everything to be sorted for them, without having to do anything... However, that frustration doesn't warrant inventing so-called facts to try and shift those people into doing something. This is manipulation and deceit.

...unless your distrust of geology means that you think the Permian strata are actually only 5000 years old or less -
which implies that the Maya calendar predates the dinosaurs!...(or you believe YHVH created the world in 4004 BC).

You presume much about my character, but know little and more likely nothing at all about who I am and what motivates me! I take great offense at your words and your incorrect assumption about my "motivations".  I had a much more meaner post here for you as you have greatly offended and angered me with your accusations, however I have deiced that my integrity matters much more to me than correcting your mis-assumptions.  Further more, please see my post below that I have quoted for you. That might open your eyes a bit to the fact that I don't have a PhD level understanding in Mayanology and am quite capable in being able to state that I possibly am wrong with my information. Because I am so offended by your actions, this will be my last post on this particular matter. And for the record, I am NOT Christian and have no problem at ALL with believing in Geology or Science or the fact that the Earth is older than DIRT!

At any rate there is always a possibility that I am wrong but as I said I thought I'd just propose and odd sort of theory on the whole 2012 thing.

[Doringo]

And for the record, I am NOT Christian and have no problem at ALL with believing in Geology or Science or the fact that the Earth is older than DIRT!

Being a Christian also entails not believing in science? I'm sorry, I wasn't informed.

[shadow.pulsar]

Being a Christian also entails not believing in science? I'm sorry, I wasn't informed.

Not at all, howerver straydog2012 seems to think so. I'm starting to think that maybe he is a troll considering he only has a few posts and the nature of his last post.  I know quite a few Christians that believe in science.

...unless your distrust of geology means that you
think the Permian strata are actually only 5000 years old or less -
which implies that the Maya calendar pre-dates the dinosaurs!...(or
you believe YHVH created the world in 4004 BC).

[Adrian]

Okay, I'll through my hat into it here with my rather different opinion backed by common sense...

There is no 2012. I don't mean the year, that will come and go in our calender, what I mean is the end of the Mayan calender.

The Mayan's based their entire calender on very precise calculations made when the Earth's axis had no wobble. The Earth has a wobble now and that changes the passage of time so significantly that when coupled with the inaccuracies of the many calenders that have come since, the Mayan calender is unable to be used in this day and time.

Essentially, the Mayan calender ended when they did.

Hello Shadow Pulsar,

I do not know where you got this from, but I assure you it is totally incorrect.

The Earth has various levels of "wobble" from the very small Chandler wobble which has no affect on the calculations, to the precession of the equinoxes, which the Maya knew about, and has not changed for many thousands of years if ever.

http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.org/bri/research/calculations/precdata.shtml

And keep in mind that there are at least 5 million Maya still living today, and the elders still maintain these calendrical systems.

There is also considerable independant evidence to support 2012.

Best regards,

Adrian.