I'll toss this stone in the pond :-o
Destiny doesnt allow us to know exact dates. If something happens on 2012 it will be subtle, probably unseen, like an explosion of the metaphysical, wich I feel is straining to burst already.
You think wrong in this case. We not know what exactly happens but we all know that in 2012 , 2011 , 2013 world(planet Earth) will be different. All will be different. We all need to understand that.
P.S. Sorry about my english... :/
Why won't destiny allow? What is it about a date that makes it forbidden? Is it our power to change it by thinking about it? Or even create it?
And, Domingess: Why are you so sure? Why is an implied prophecy by an ancient and mysterious civilization a sure thing?
As you may have guessed, I'm not pro or con- I just want to know what people think and where that comes from.
Destiny doesn't exist.
Probably.
In my opinion... :-)
Therefore anything is possible. Possibly.
Sarah
I think that if the collective consciousness of humanity was tuned in to believe in a Mayan event in 2012 something would happen to equal the expectation. As it is, I'm wondering if the average person around the world has even heard of it. I hadn't until I started reading posts on this forum. DH
Quote from: DH on February 23, 2007, 00:37:34
I think that if the collective consciousness of humanity was tuned in to believe in a Mayan event in 2012 something would happen to equal the expectation. As it is, I'm wondering if the average person around the world has even heard of it. I hadn't until I started reading posts on this forum. DH
I would believe this if Santa manifested each 25 Dec and other belief driven figures were created by the sheer weight of belief. I don't intend this to come across in the wrong way - just that certain figures hold the belief of billions, yet, they never manifest. I'm reaching the conclusion that consiousness might only be able to affect reality on sub-atomic levels (if at all), and such changes are infrequent in terms of sub-atomic interactions over time..
Quote from: MisterJingo on February 23, 2007, 05:41:49
I would believe this if Santa manifested each 25 Dec and other belief driven figures were created by the sheer weight of belief. I don't intend this to come across in the wrong way - just that certain figures hold the belief of billions, yet, they never manifest. I'm reaching the conclusion that consiousness might only be able to affect reality on sub-atomic levels (if at all), and such changes are infrequent in terms of sub-atomic interactions over time..
Maybe so. I too have wondered about consciousness affecting reality more on the sub-atomic level. But do you really think that billions of people believe in a real Santa Claus or other mythical figures? I know a handful of kids who do. Most of them will soon get over it. But are there enough left to affect the collective consicousness over generations? DH
Quote from: MisterJingo on February 23, 2007, 05:41:49
I would believe this if Santa manifested each 25 Dec and other belief driven figures were created by the sheer weight of belief. I don't intend this to come across in the wrong way - just that certain figures hold the belief of billions, yet, they never manifest.
I beg to differ here. Santa brings my kid loads of crap we can't afford every year. Through us. Santa is an archetype. And as any good archetype, Santa manifests as people in the parents, institutions, charity organizations that give gifts to people that don't have the $. As I have said before, manifestation doesn't have to be of the 'magical' kind. :lol:
Quote from: DH on February 23, 2007, 09:47:58
Maybe so. I too have wondered about consciousness affecting reality more on the sub-atomic level. But do you really think that billions of people believe in a real Santa Claus or other mythical figures? I know a handful of kids who do. Most of them will soon get over it. But are there enough left to affect the collective consicousness over generations? DH
I'd say across Western Europe, the amount of believers in Santa would be in the tens of millions. And this would be pure unadulterated, absolute belief of children. Then there are the billions who believe in archetypes from their religions.
Quote from: CFTraveler on February 23, 2007, 12:42:16
I beg to differ here. Santa brings my kid loads of crap we can't afford every year. Through us. Santa is an archetype. And as any good archetype, Santa manifests as people in the parents, institutions, charity organizations that give gifts to people that don't have the $. As I have said before, manifestation doesn't have to be of the 'magical' kind. :lol:
I agree here 100% :). Belief directs action, and in the examples you gave such belief manifests itself in the physical through physical action. I'm a very positive person in life, and even through bad times, I know things will turn out for the best, and they do. I'm unsure if this is belief altering reality in a 'none physical ' way, or if my demeanour affects those around me, and consequently the situations I find myself within reflect the positive attitude I put out.
MAYBE(this is just a thought) but maybe some things dont manifest because most people believe it DOESNT exist. and that belief is stronger than the belief that it does exist. this my be why it is difficult to manifest objects and perform feats like psiball flaring and telekinesis. maybe our own conviction must be stronger than everyone elses. of course, it may affect your performance that you are concentrating on manifesting this phenomena and other people who dont believe arent focusing on the object. just a wild thought. who knows.
Quote from: erynys on February 23, 2007, 20:05:02
MAYBE(this is just a thought) but maybe some things dont manifest because most people believe it DOESNT exist. and that belief is stronger than the belief that it does exist. this my be why it is difficult to manifest objects and perform feats like psiball flaring and telekinesis. maybe our own conviction must be stronger than everyone elses. of course, it may affect your performance that you are concentrating on manifesting this phenomena and other people who dont believe arent focusing on the object. just a wild thought. who knows.
This is definately an area open to speculation :).
Quote from: erynys on February 23, 2007, 20:05:02
MAYBE(this is just a thought) but maybe some things dont manifest because most people believe it DOESNT exist. and that belief is stronger than the belief that it does exist. this my be why it is difficult to manifest objects and perform feats like psiball flaring and telekinesis. maybe our own conviction must be stronger than everyone elses. of course, it may affect your performance that you are concentrating on manifesting this phenomena and other people who dont believe arent focusing on the object. just a wild thought. who knows.
I guess this is what I was trying to get at a few posts back with the bit about children and Santa Claus. Even if millions of kids believe in Santa (at least for a few years), surely there are so many more people feeding into the collective consciousness who have heard of Santa and disbelieve or who have never heard of him at all.
Also along the lines that "maybe some things don't manifest because most people don't believe it".....There is a very strange story in the New Testament in Mark 6 where Jesus goes back to his home town after beginning his ministry of healing and exorcisms. These people only knew him as the kid next door, a carpenter, not as some kind of mystical prophet. The story says, "He could not do any miracles there because of their unbelief." Note that it's not "would not" but "could not". That is a verse you don't find in very many Sunday School lessons! But it makes you scratch your and and go "Hmmmmmm." DH
Quote from: DH on February 23, 2007, 00:37:34
I think that if the collective consciousness of humanity was tuned in to believe in a Mayan event in 2012 something would happen to equal the expectation. As it is, I'm wondering if the average person around the world has even heard of it. I hadn't until I started reading posts on this forum. DH
If that were the case, then the world would be flat right now.
Youre all cought up in what everyone else beleives. It doesnt matter if a billion people believe something, it doesnt make them right. Out of that billion probably only a thousand started at the bottom and came up with the same conclusion as everyone else.
The physical universe is already being imagined, and not by us. The physical world is not a dream, it is a solid form made of laws. A dream is not restricted by laws, exept those we make. Our spheres of energy are ours to mold, like a dream. And the astral plane is ours to mold as well. We cannot make the earth flat because we are not God, we're very far from it, and so our power and immagination are dwarfed by the artist who painted the universe, the scientist who created it's laws.
I'm not sure about destiny but I do believe in inevitability.
Assuming that all aspects of our 'world' are somehow integrated, it can be seen that certain aspects are not ideal. It is inevitable that these 'wrongs' be made 'right'. To function optimally. If you have seen the war on the news, global warming, Africa - the starving continent it's not a hard question to answer "Is this the best of us? Is this the best that we as a species can manifest?"
The problem is that someone has to lose out often to do what is right. In the case of global warming for example carbon emissions, economy's will be effected. Everyone's looking for an edge. Inevitably this problem will, or perhaps has, become a real issue for younger generations to deal with.
The Mayan Prophercy is in relation largely to us as a civilization. Destiny usually, in my experience, refers to the individual.
I believe man is self-made. Why? It has been too often in my life that I have seen people who preach of destiny accomplish nothing. So I do not disbelieve in destiny, just it's representitives. If you asked me however "Was Jesus destined to be what he has become?" I would answer "Yes".
-AM
You're right, everything that is happening now was inevitable, and I beleive there is a perpose for the world being allowed to reach such a sorry state. Most people know that you grow the greatest when you conquire your demons, and well, the world is full of demons.
But anyways, by destiny I simply meant premonition, prophesy. We arent allowed to know exactly when, it always has to be vague, or the prophesy cant come true. It has to do with the energies involved, human interferance, 'time', and even faith. Faith actually diminishes if given proof. You also have to take into account free will. Premonitions are always fairly vague for these reasons (at least thats what I beleive.) The 2012 prophesy will have to be something that catches us by suprise, something that doesnt matter wether we knew it would happen or not. If it predicts an event at all, it could simply be an insignificant date where thier calandar ends, ours ends every 365 days.
Quote from: Alaskans on February 28, 2007, 21:08:19
You're right, everything that is happening now was inevitable, and I beleive there is a perpose for the world being allowed to reach such a sorry state. Most people know that you grow the greatest when you conquire your demons, and well, the world is full of demons.
Uhm I wouldn't say that the world is in a worse stage than it was a 1000 years ago or at any time acctually. The world is also not full of demons..... its just that the media overemphasizes on bad things happening. Good news never sells..
Read a really old book, like the one by Horis (1000bc I think). The world is much worse now. Sure they had a lot of warmongers and barbarians then, but the difference is now the warmongers and barbarians are leaders of huge nations. Self improvement in society was a universal idea, rather than something people did outside society. Those who didn't strive for civility and good were looked down on and shunned, today violence, chaos, and indulgence is worshiped (yes it is). The world is inversed, upside down. You dont have to look back thousands of years to see a dramatic slide, only the last 100 years, when was the last time the U.S. had a president of Lincoln or Franklin's moral caliber? Could a person like them even become president nowdays, without slithering into office?
Without stating any examples I'll have to agree with Alaskans here. I think the world saw better days 1000 years ago. Taking everything into account.
-AM
Quote from: Goober on February 24, 2007, 13:52:31
If that were the case, then the world would be flat right now.
That is actually explained in the movie The Secret
Quote from: Alaskans on March 01, 2007, 14:15:18
Read a really old book, like the one by Horis (1000bc I think). The world is much worse now. Sure they had a lot of warmongers and barbarians then, but the difference is now the warmongers and barbarians are leaders of huge nations. Self improvement in society was a universal idea, rather than something people did outside society. Those who didn't strive for civility and good were looked down on and shunned, today violence, chaos, and indulgence is worshiped (yes it is). The world is inversed, upside down. You dont have to look back thousands of years to see a dramatic slide, only the last 100 years, when was the last time the U.S. had a president of Lincoln or Franklin's moral caliber? Could a person like them even become president nowdays, without slithering into office?
I'm not sure if I agree with this wholly. If you look at the past 5-600 years, you'll see that things like child slavery and certain things we would be horrified about were commonplace, not something anyone even thought twice about. The despots we have today command more people because there are more people. It's a matter of perspective. I do however, agree that we have backslid considerably in the last 100 years- but I don't agree that we're worse off than thousands of years ago.
Hmmm - recently we have the best healthcare (medical), pschoanalysists, pschyotherapists, self-healers, psychic healers etc. etc. in the Western world, and yet we have problems abound.
"We" live longer - and it's true, we do - we are healthier in body for sure, but in spirit I fear we are much weaker.
However, that's nothing to be concerned about. I'm of the opinion that life ebbs and flows, like water, and what comes, goes. So we are healthier...and then weaker....and then healther... and so on, just like the seasons or the life and death of a salmon.
Like our life and death. What does it matter that "one" decays and dies? We become dust, soil, we nourish a beautiful clematis, we are the leaf, we are the raindrop, we are the stoneflag, we are the patio, we are the lounge, we are the television, we are the human again, and so on...
And on and on.
Sarah
Science and technology have done a lot to raise the quality of life for those who are fortunate enough to have it, but I can't see that human nature has changed. In my reading of history it seems there have always been those who are radically self-centered, those who are radically self-giving, and the multitudes who slide somewhere in between. Are we evolving into something better? That's my hope, but there has been a lot of great spiritual teaching for the benefit of humankind in the past 3500 years, and as far as I can see, the jury is still out. DH
i like to believe that our spiritual revolution combined with certain cosmic events will spawn an increase in awareness. hopefully including everyone. it probably wont. maybe thats where a battle will occur. but the winners should be us. i guess, if this is the last cycle, then its us.
Quote from: Alaskans on March 01, 2007, 14:15:18
Read a really old book, like the one by Horis (1000bc I think). The world is much worse now. Sure they had a lot of warmongers and barbarians then, but the difference is now the warmongers and barbarians are leaders of huge nations. Self improvement in society was a universal idea, rather than something people did outside society. Those who didn't strive for civility and good were looked down on and shunned, today violence, chaos, and indulgence is worshiped (yes it is). The world is inversed, upside down. You dont have to look back thousands of years to see a dramatic slide, only the last 100 years, when was the last time the U.S. had a president of Lincoln or Franklin's moral caliber? Could a person like them even become president nowdays, without slithering into office?
Huh?
An old book.... that came from one nation. A lot of people make the mistake that they call the major civilisation of a time "the world". First of all the books written in those times came from the upper class which made up like 5% or so of the total population of the present civilisation. Compared to the rest of the world at that time they are nothing.
So basically you had like 5000 people or less in a civilisation which probably made up only a few percent of the total world population who had a nice lifes and wrote a books about it.
In these civilisations murder and crime was common in the lower class. The same goes for poverty.
The rest of the world was "lawless" by todays standards. Rape, murder, human sacrifice in some cases, slavery, etc. was common.
So please reading a book written a 1000 years ago and than thinking the world at that time is shaped after what it is described in the book is absurd.
Today we have human rights....... that alone is a major step in the positive direction. Yes I know people are going against them, but they still are true for the majority.
And anyway you yourself have given an argument that todays world is better than in the past.
"Self improvement in society was a universal idea"
Exactly, so we have that for atleast 500 years now. Hence the world is a better place than it used to be.
Phew! I really got grilled on this one. :-D
You're right, society today being bad is an opinion I formed, that I never really looked at with a microscope, highly unusual for me.
The world is perhaps better, children are murdered by terrorists today, and they were likely murdered by marauders then. The evil has changed forms but it hasnt changed it's essence.
I really cant even say violence is worshiped now more than ever (arenas.)
I cant say we havent benefited from government, genocide aside. Medicine, though misdirected, has given people another chance. Logic, I believe, is very important for development of the individual and the universe. A brain using both sides is far more powerfull than one specializing in one area.
However, I get this nagging feeling that peoples souls are far more empty now than they have ever been. That people are more self centered, and well... thats exactly opposite of what we must achieve is it not? To become open, one with the universe, and in that way gain a great deal, reaching higher levels of paradise?
I'm always hearing about people in pharmacutical research sacrificing the greater good, often indirectly killing thousands of people, just to make money. They dont care about curing cancer or any other disease, the cures are already out there, but if they cant make money off it they wont distribute it.
I suppose what it all boils down to, why I formed this opinion.. I HAVE to beleive humans are better than this. I want the world to be set right, in my mind that means stepping back, but if this is how it is and always has been... well.. that means humans are hopeless, that God has given up on us and will not set things right, as there is no 'right' to set.
Alaskans,
I think I feel your pain. Witness my earlier post:
Quote from: DH on March 03, 2007, 02:35:18
Science and technology have done a lot to raise the quality of life for those who are fortunate enough to have it, but I can't see that human nature has changed. In my reading of history it seems there have always been those who are radically self-centered, those who are radically self-giving, and the multitudes who slide somewhere in between. Are we evolving into something better? That's my hope, but there has been a lot of great spiritual teaching for the benefit of humankind in the past 3500 years, and as far as I can see, the jury is still out. DH
Things are better some ways, and in other ways we (humanity) have screwed ourselves royally. But I get back to the thought: It's about
human nature and the attempt to satisfy the ego. Material things will satisfy us, and even help us (as in medical advances and human rights advances). But what about the human desire to "get what I want and screw everyone else"? Thus, the continued atrocities around the world.
I'm afraid, my friend, that you are a philosopher, and these deep questions will continue to haunt your mind.
Personally, I think there is hope. The inclination of humanity is still toward the good, despite the ego. My belief is that is God trying to get through our selfish ego filters. It is a slow process, but one that will continue to move toward both justice and mercy -- the two sides of love (tough love versus kindness). God has established love in all of its fullness. Look inside and I believe you will hear God say, "Keep the faith and LIVE IT OUT". :-) DH