What is often called madness by "normal" society is really transformation.
Itzhak Bentov, a Czech born scientist, inventor, mystic and author and early exponent of what has come to be referred to as consciousness studies has this to say on the subject:
"It is ironic that persons in whom the evolutionary processes of Nature have begun to operate more rapidly, and who can be considered as advanced mutants of the human race, are institutionalized as subnormal by their 'normal' peers. I dare to guess, on the basis of discussion with my psychiatrist-friends, that this process is not as exotic and rare as one would like us to believe, and possibly 25 to 30 per cent of all institutionalized schizophrenics belong to this category - a tremendous waste of human potential."
One of Bentov's findings is that the diagnosis of schizophrenia stems from the kundalini activation of other levels of awareness:
"The reason for this is that they have been catapulted suddenly into a situation in which they are functioning in more than one reality. [like i said before, indigenous people who would be considered schizophrenic by modern medicine standards are seen as gifted beings who live between worlds] They can see and hear things occurring in our neighboring realities, that is the astral or other higher realities, because their 'frequency response' has been broadened...The onslaught of information may be overwhelming, and they begin to mix and confuse two or three realities."
The italics are my words.
Thought I would share this Psilibus as a continuation of our previous discussion. I just came across this guy and he articulates the point much more clearly than I do. So that's what I was trying to say months ago when we talked about this. I don't see schizophrenia as being a disease, no matter how bad you've seen it. Were these "schizophrenics" to be given training instead of medication perhaps we would have a much different view of what they are. Who knows.
Please hold tight for my response! :wink:
I will get back to this when I am at work tonight. Should have enough time to provide a proper response. Add more if you would like.
Just for argument now though -
The premise here is that Schizophrenia is not a "disease". Am I correct? And/or that it is a heightening of the human senses? First you will need to look closely at the precise definition of "disease". What constitutes the label of "disease". Then, drop 2000 micrograms of LSD25 daily for the rest of your life. Use only the pure stuff, you don't want any strychnine or other impurities. You will find that after the first few weeks there will be nothing exotic or rare about it. Don't worry, you will only be institutionalized if you become a "danger" to yourself or others. Don't worry that you might "be considered as advanced mutants of the human race" - that is only called "stigma", not too difficult to get over once you get used to people treating you like someone to avoid. Once your family and friends give up on you because they cannot cope with your eccentricities and unintelligible speech you will have found a sort of unique independence. You will discover that not only will you not be able to earn an income to survive, your dependence on underfunded public resources will leave you mostly hungry and cold as you drift from homelessness or shelter to shelter. There is a great chance you might be able to earn a living from collecting discarding aluminum cans but that is only is states which have a deposit fund. As you deal with all the "multiple realities" you must never once think there might be a better way of living, or that perhaps medication might help. But then since you are not really schizophrenic, just quit the LSD. The damage might be severe by then but at least you'd know how to cope. A person with schizophrenia can just quit taking the LSD though, which is my point.
After that I think we will understand each other better. :-D
lol.
I've been waiting all day for you to respond.
I'm not arguing that those "afflicted" don't suffer. Also, I don't like the word disease, but that's besides the point.
But I believe you are missing my point. You actually illustrated my point perfectly. The stigma associated does nothing but exacerbate the dissonance in the person's mind. I am proposing that if the paradigm of psychology/psychiatry were more open to the possibilities of the non-physical and those who can see it without having to go to the measures people like you and i do, then a person diagnosed with schizophrenia would have a very different life from the one you have laid out. For you and I, this thing we call astral projection can certainly be disorienting if we haven't developed some semblance of control.
First, if these people weren't treated as hopeless wastes of flesh and blood I do believe their "condition" wouldn't become as extreme as the scenario you put forth. In the mind of a person who sees between worlds, people condemning them to institutionalization or simply not accepting them will certainly make the little bit of identity they have left fracture and fade away. The one thing a person like this needs is to feel safe, secure and accepted in spite of everything. You might say, "Well their families feel that way" and they truly may, but in the eyes of the "afflicted", they day their family takes them to a psychiatric hospital is they day they lose faith in the possibility of existing as themselves. Again, my point is illustrated. The family doesn't know what else to do and so they stress, they worry and in the end they don't know what else to do and so they feel that giving their loved one to the medical community is all they can do. Perhaps if the family's perception weren't so poisoned by what we call "modern society in the free world" they could see their loved one for what they are, a miracle of human evolution. Just imagine what effect that simple difference in the way they are treated could have on the psyche of the "schizophrenic".
Second, think about what we have to do to explore these non-physical realities. How many times a day does someone post on this forum, scared as hell because they are hearing voices and having visions (auditory and visual hypnogogic hallucinations) upon drifting to sleep or waking up? How many people come here, confused and scared, because their perception of reality includes "superstitions" that are creating horrible monsters in their astral journeys? It takes mental discipline and practice to control one's focus and apply the skills we've learned in these non-physical realms. Why is a "schizophrenic" any different? They are thrown into a world that scares the crap out of the rest of us until we've acclimated to it, but they aren't given a chance to learn control and focus.
Now, allow me to make this clear. I'm not arguing at all the scenario you've laid out. I'm not arguing that in the "real world" we live in now the scenario that i have laid out doesn't seem to exist. I'm not condemning any kind of treatment you've ever participated in. My argument stems from my utter disgust with the modern medical system. I'm not talking about the financial side of it. Of course that is a problem, treatment is dictated by money these days and there isn't much money in more 'holistic' treatments. My problem is that the current medical system is flawed because it operates from a purely materialistic (as in only acknowledging the physical and empirically testable side of reality) perspective. Half, if not more, of a person's being is neglected in modern medical treatment. And scientists struggle over this daily. What is mind? Even if it is a happy coincidence spawned from all the neural activity in the brain, it's still a ghost in the machine that they can't explain and they still refuse to consider the possibility. It's the few rogue scientists like Monroe or this Bentov character who are considering the possibility that there is more to the human psyche than just neural firing and emotional programming. While I do feel passionately about the issue of schizophrenia, the topic only serves to illustrate my global argument which is modern medicine of the mind (psychology/psychiatry, and for the record i whole-heartedly disagree with psychiatry, i don't think pharmaceuticals are ever the answer when dealing with the mind, they do nothing but mask the cause) is sorely lacking when it comes to the bigger picture that is the human psyche.
I feel passionately about this because I almost feel mislead and let down. I began to pursue a "career" in what modern medicine laughably calls psychology because I felt that the truth in reality existed in the mystery we call mind. Much to my surprise, modern psychology doesn't seem to give a excrement about the nature of the human psyche as much as they care about just making sure people are functional relative to what the rest of society deems normal. Well, you know as well as I do that normal is non-existent. What does exist is an infinite spectrum of uniqueness and divinity that can only be truly experience on an individual basis. So doesn't it seem more beneficial to teach everyone how to learn from and navigate their own reality rather than drug them enough to stifle the soul and make them seem just like everyone else? This field of scientific research (if you can even call it that) is turning us all into robots and I won't volunteer my brilliance and creativity to that end. (and i'm not being cocky in describing myself in that way, we are all brilliant and infinitely creative)
Here's a quick read which supports some of the "other side" of schizophrenia. I'm posting this without reading your last post so forgive me. I will respond further when I have a little more time.
http://www.humanehealthcare.com/Article.asp?art_id=707
This is why I love persons with schizophrenia. Kinda reminds me of the comment you made to the person with quadriplegia (ballsy but appropriate :-)).
I'm very interested to see where this discussion goes.
I'm also of the belief that the people we have locked up and are "medicating" for these problems don't really have issues with anything but society.
~Ryan :)
i don't think your name is Psilibus is it?
lol
jk
Well. This is going to be difficult. I really would like someone to respond who has had direct experience with schizophrenia as I have. There is new research being done daily across the world that I try to keep up on. Did anyone read my last posted link? I think what is difficult to convey is the seriousness of the disorder (a term use synonymously with "disease" when discussing mental illness) yet also the internal strength of the person. As with any person who is handicapped in some way, the effort is to build on their strengths and not focus on the weaknesses. Weaknesses can be identified but usually only to develop strategies to overcome them using their other latent strengths.
PR - with your dislike of extended reading and my tendency to ramble incessantly I must apologize but this might take some repeated posts.
I will briefly list my qualifications and experience once again to establish a baseline. I am a registered nurse with an associate degree in science. I am nationally certified in Acute Psychiatric Nursing. I have further education but I will leave it at this. I am NOT a wanna-be psychologist or DR. as I am proud of my performance as a nurse. Since 1998 I have worked in what is called "acute inpatient mental health". I worked for ten years in a local community hospital and for the last two years I have worked in a federal facility, same job, different demographic. The first hospital had to close its mental health unit after ten years due lack of funding. It was devastating to our community but that is the society we live in. Despite all efforts, including appeals to our state legislature, there was no help to be found. Our hospital lost several million dollars in their efforts to support the mental health needs of our county.
The idea behind this type of hospitalization is to support persons who had become a risk to themselves or others. Basically, they had tried unsuccessfully to kill themselves or someone else or were having extreme urges to do so. Sometimes they were admitted because of threats. Sometimes because their behavior put them at risk, ie. hallucinating, severely out of touch with reality, risk taking, inability to perform self care such as feeding themselves. Some came in seeking help. Some were brought in by caring family. Some against their will.
I have seen pretty much anything you might find in the DSM-TR. Severe depression to the point of catatonia or psychosis. Bipolar and the other affective disorders. Schizophrenia and schizo-affective disorders. Personality disorders, particularly Borderline and Antisocial. Severe alcohol or other substance abuse issues (more related to the above issues rather than for "substance abuse treatment"). Severe ADHD, conduct disorder and oppositional defiant disorder. Persons with traumatic brain injury, especially frontal lobe type. Early stage Alzheimer's and other dementia type disorders, deliriums. Some eating disorders, anorexia, bulimia. There is so much more, including some of the more rare disorders ie, I have worked with creutzfeldt jakob disease, somataform disorders, PTSD and your basic malingerers.
I spent five years working directly with children and adolescents. From four years old to 18. I have also worked with all ages of adults, up to 104 years old. It was a coed unit. I performed all the nursing duties you could imagine. I specialized in group and family education. I took a particular pride in my ability to diffuse escalating situations. I have been involved in physical restraint use and locked door seclusion. I have had to personally use "hands-on" techniques, several hundred times, to protect the safety of people. I am well versed in the use of psychiatric medicines. I have and always will maintain professional boundaries. I am a strong advocate for my patients and will stand up to ANYONE so that they may receive the best care possible.
Any questions before I continue? :-P
I'm not disputing your qualifications and I'm not disputing your experience and I'm not disputing the current state of mental health care.
Again, if I were someone who was easily offended I would most likely be very offended by your request for someone who has seen schizophrenia in action like you have.
I'm pretty sure you are totally missing my point. I AM NOT disagreeing with the way schizophrenia or any other mental disorder appears to the modern medical community. I am using schizophrenia as a specific example of a larger problem. That problem is the entire paradigm of thought concerning mental illness.
I am speaking idealistically, you are trying to dispute my theory based on your experience, which is practically impossible. Your experience has filled your perception with the "reality" of modern mental health care. Once again, I'm not disputing that. But what I'm saying is the potential I see for the way mental health care is handled in the future. You are "classically" trained in Psychiatric Nursing and so your perspective of this discussion comes from that realm of thought. I am in the process of being classically trained in the same manner, however, I fundamentally disagree with that training and I am proposing a new age in mental health care.
Personally I believe that psychology (not psychiatry, psychiatrists are in cahoots with the neurologists) has hit a wall and their research and treatment has become stagnant (mostly because their research is being taken over by neurology) and it has no where else to go but into consciousness studies, ie acceptance of a non-physical component to being and the psyche. So, you see, we're arguing from two different worlds. I'm discussing this with you, not because I want to hear about your clinical experience from what I consider a stagnant perspective, I want to discuss this with mushroom man in an ideological fashion. I want to discuss the potential of mental health care in the future, when this broken and poisoned system is no longer the "norm".
Yes. I knew that would get you going. I think this will be fun. I listed my credentials to show I'm no "authority" on the subject. I am someone who has to deal with the situation daily though. 12 years is equivalent to a PHD plus residency. I might have a perspective you can agree with. You might actually find we have quite common ground. You might find that "ideologically" we agree on many counts. This will not happen without much discussion.
I am up to it because I enjoy your point of view. I enjoy being challenged. Oh, and - "Again, if I were someone who was easily offended I would most likely be very offended by your request for someone who has seen schizophrenia in action like you have." LOL. Right. Talk the talk or walk the walk. Textbook and "classical" training doesn't mean shiite to me. I wasn't classically trained. I was thrown to the wolves. If anything my "classical" training was in Theosophy. My "classical" approach was through reading and studying Jungian psychology while I was a practitioner of Golden Dawn, loooong before I ever imagined working with mental illness. Talk about "magical thinking".
I proposed my "qualifications" to show I am not an elitist on this subject. In the previous thread I was appalled by the comment that was made in a thread started by a confessed "schizophrenic". My comments were applicable to my knowledge and carefully worded. Yours were "ballsy" (for lack of better terms) and I was uncomfortable with them. Here in this thread I will not speak softly. I can hold my own. That means I can learn and grow as well. You said - "I am speaking idealistically, you are trying to dispute my theory based on your experience, which is practically impossible." Idealism is fine. It is what initiates change. Theories lead to discovery. I dispute nothing. What I will do is state fact. It is objective through experience and science. Because it also involves countless conversations with "schizophrenics" (I use this only as a quick term for one with the diagnosis) it is also subjective. This is why I feel my "qualifications" are applicable.
As I have stated before there are varying levels in any disease or disorder or whatever term you might use. I will state emphatically that an untreated person with acute schizophrenia cannot function in this world without assistance. Whether they are splitting dimensions or not the fact remains they will die from suicide, homicide or neglect. Period. I have and never will mistreat a person with mental illness. The fantasy of what occurs during the treatment of the mentally ill remains with those who do not participate in it.
I want a clear explanation of what your propose so that I can work with it. This is something you can do I am positive. Try to offend me if you think it might stir me into action. I am best that way.
P.S. I think I like you :wink: My name is Michael.
This may be a little off-topic, but I'm going to put it out there anyways, as I think it's somewhat related to what PR is getting at.
I recently watched a documentary on PBS about a couple who had a son with autism, and by accident, they found the only thing that could calm him was horses. They could put him on the back of a horse and his ticks would go away, so they decided to take him to some shamans in Mongolia, due to their belief in horses in relation to their spirituality.
Long story short, they were told by a shaman that their son was also destined to become a shaman, and they spoke about how in many shamanic cultures, the shamans were normally "different" in ways that resemble many of our mental disorders/diseases, but in their culture they were highly revered for their unique perceptions.
And that's all I got.
Exactly my point.
Because of my chosen field, this topic is "important" to me. And, after taking a couple abnormal psych classes and some anthropology and religion classes focused on shamanism it wasn't too hard to draw the parallels between those chosen to be the shaman's apprentice and those deemed unfit to care for themselves in the west.
Modern psychology treats 'patients' in a way that will have them return to being able to function 'properly' in 'normal' society, but it falls extremely short in recognizing what is really going on in the patients head.
There is a lot of untapped potential here. I would happily fry myself in the name of science because in my own experiences I have already started to realize these potentialities; when my 'psychotic episode' was at its peak, so too were my telepathic abilities. This telepathy was undeniable, to the point where we both thought we were crazy and had to voice our thoughts out loud.
It is unfortunate that I felt I had to keep this to myself (from the doctors) because I knew that they would just see it as delusional, in fact I pretended to be as straight as possible.
Fact is, I know there are more people like myself out there, and it is unfortunate that we can't just eat as much as we want from the tree of knowledge. WE have our microwave ovens and our fast cars and we have our drugs. Drug related experiences are often referred to as spiritual, I would almost go as far as to say we were meant to take drugs for ease of spiritual development.
Quote from: grzazek on September 01, 2010, 02:52:19
Fact is, I know there are more people like myself out there, and it is unfortunate that we can't just eat as much as we want from the tree of knowledge. WE have our microwave ovens and our fast cars and we have our drugs. Drug related experiences are often referred to as spiritual, I would almost go as far as to say we were meant to take drugs for ease of spiritual development.
you would love my blog.
http://aquaman211.wordpress.com/about/
through the use of marijuana and a couple shroom experiences, i've created a joke schizo personality of "The Most Interesting Man in the World" of the mind that makes all women immediately intrigued toward my online avatar. I am a psych major and have been working on this way before Dos Equis Most Interesting Man in the World commercials came along, and i believe it's because it's representative of the boredom of material life.
I suffer from schizophrenia. I was diagnosed with it when i was 17. (im 25 now) It was pure hell the first two years, then it eased up a little. Then i got a last resort badass medication which helped me immensely. However, it has drawbacks. It makes me so high and drunk that i literally walk into the walls at night when i have to go to the bathroom to pee or something. (I always take my meds at bedtime) I used to suffer from severe depression as well. And no medication helped with that. Then by mistake i found a GREAT antidepressive drug. 100% natural and legal. I am talking about Citrus Aurantium. Also known as "bitter orange". I can buy this stuff at the store in the spice section for a buck. It kicks in fast, the first week i felt high and speeded from it. Then those feelings disappeared. But now something else happened. I felt great! Not a worry in the world! I take it regularly and i no longer suffer from depression or panic attacks. I also suffered from a problem with my breathing. It felt like i couldnt get enough air and was suffocating. I had to call an ambulance twice because of this. The doctors said it was purely psychological. They measured my bloods oxygen level and they were normal. The bitter orange helped with this as well. I highly recommend it to anyone suffering from depression or anxiety. Make a tea from it or wrap some of it in a piece of toilet paper and swallow with water.