I have a dilemma. My co-worker is a hypocrite and a racist.
Normally he is a very pleasant person: friendly, funny, non-confrontational, dad of two little boys... a genuinely pleasant guy to have around.
And then on occasion, unfortunately, he would open his mouth and make a comment or a joke with a racist taint to it against black people.
He is also a hypocrite, because he would never say anything remotely racist in the presence of a black person and deals with all our clients in the best possible way. We work in South Africa and the majority of our clients happens to have black skins.
This behavior to me is extremely negative, illogical and immature. I don't want to judge the man, BUT I also dont want to have to deal with this type of negativity every day.
I have told him that I find his slurs offensive on more than one occasion, and he would then keep it to himself. After a while he would just start with that crap again.
What do I do without affecting our business unit? If I make a big deal about this our work relationship is going to go south.
i know a few people from south africa who adopt this superiority complex against different cultures.. really arrogant and disrespectful.
*Sigh*... I knew I should have left out the South Africa part. Pretend I am from Australia. Or Alabama in the USA. :roll:
I have black friends that tell me jokes of black people. If they don't have a problem with that then why should I? They think it's funny, I don't know, as long as he doesn't disrespect people I think he's just trying to be fun.
No, there is a line. It is about ones intent, ultimately. Trying to be funny with a derogatory racial overtone is simply negative to me, I dont care who may think it is funny.
It points to an emotional immaturity... an innability to logically process certain emotions. For example, a blue guy raped a purple girl. Will I now judge all blue guys based on that? No, off course not! Bloody hell man! Its illogical!
If you must judge, judge by the action of a person - not the bloody color of their shell.
End of rant...
Yup, I think it's strange too, but what if the blue guy is making jokes about the blue people? I certainly wouldn't be the one making jokes about blue people, but If I knew they liked it and didn't mind it I could even try.
As you said he treated everyone nicely, if the only problem is the content of his jokes then you can always choose not to laugh and respond.
Quote from: AndrewTheSinger on September 14, 2006, 18:05:10
As you said he treated everyone nicely, if the only problem is the content of his jokes then you can always choose not to laugh and respond.
I don't laugh or respond to the jokes/comments. I try to ignore them for the sake of a pleasant work environment.
Ignoring a problem is a nonsolution though. The negative vibe of it affects me greatly... I can sense the hate behind the "humour".
You see, it is not "just jokes", its in his character. In his mindset. If it was just a joke or two it would not really have been a problem for me. Its a constant hammering on the same thing...
If he is just kiding with the boys and not saying ugly things to black people its ok :|
Quote from: BadCookie on September 14, 2006, 18:25:26
If he is just kiding with the boys and not saying ugly things to black people its ok :|
So you are saying hypocrisy is OK? :?
Hey interception,
I know where you are coming from. Does your work place have any form of procedures in place regarding racial comments or abuse?
I would have suggested the first step would be to take this person aside and speak to them; you have done this multiple times it seems to little effect.
What would be the consequences of taking this to a supervisor or line manager?
It's not pleasant working in an environment where racist comments are regularly made – even if they're made in jest and behind people's backs, the intent and content of those comments is offensive.
The UK used to see a lot of this, but thankfully, on the whole things have improved and such things in the work place can be dealt with.
Quote from: interception on September 14, 2006, 18:33:43
So you are saying hypocrisy is OK? :?
I dont know i dont think iam racist, but sometimes i make black jokes :|.
Quote from: MisterJingo on September 14, 2006, 18:43:05
Hey interception,
I know where you are coming from. Does your work place have any form of procedures in place regarding racial comments or abuse?
There are procedures yes, but I if I do go that route it is going to become very unpleasant. So much so that I will be forced to find alternative employment. He has a much more experience in what we do, than me. Its just me and him running the unit. So its likely he will stay, and I will go.
I dont want that either, if I can help it....not right now.
Absolutely ignore him when he makes you uncomfortable. Don't speak to him, don't make eye contact; act like he isn't even in the room.
Quote from: AndrewTheSinger on September 14, 2006, 17:14:23
I have black friends that tell me jokes of black people. If they don't have a problem with that then why should I? They think it's funny, I don't know, as long as he doesn't disrespect people I think he's just trying to be fun.
I am a 21 year old black man. I take myself very seriously. I take my black people very
SERIOUSLY. I resent any jokes or unwarranted ridicule on my people because it only creates a situation where people start to deny the reality of black people as a whole. For years black people have had to deal with stereotypes that tried to reduce them down to mere animals whose only purpose was to fulfill primitive desires(i.e. such as these disgraceful pictures and depictions of black people gorging themselves on fried chicken and watermelon.)
Now I don't know what kind of black folks your hanging around but to me it sounds like your black friends may not have sufficient knowledge of themselves. Any black man or woman who knows their TRUE history would not make jokes about themselves or their people.
I am a strong black man.
When I walk outside I want the respect that I deserve.
I don't want anybody making jokes about me because I am not a joke.
My black skin is not a joke.
My black ancestors were not a joke.
It was not a joke when they brought my people on slave ships to the Americas.
My reality is real and I am a human being that is capable of experiencing a wide range of emotions. I feel I should be treated with a certain level of respect like everyone else.
This is not a game right here.
Quote from: BadCookie on September 14, 2006, 18:25:26
If he is just kiding with the boys and not saying ugly things to black people its ok :|
I am sure they were just kidding when they depicted the black man as an over sexed beast who was dangerous to society. I am sure they are just kidding when they depict my brothers and sisters in media as dumb animals who can't think for themselves. I think its a really funny joke don't you? Its so funny that I can barely contain myself from laughing whenever I think about it. :roll:
People make put down the black man without even knowing that by doing so, they are denying his reality as a human being. You may think that these 'jokes' are not a big deal but it does a number on your subconscious. Without you even knowing, your perception of the black man gets skewed and you start to view black people as less human. I believe this is why so many people can turn a blind eye to my brothers and sisters who are out here suffering and struggling just to get by.
People think if they see a couple of shows on TV where black people are making fun of themselves then its ok to take this situation lightly. But guess what? Not all black people enjoy making fun of themselves. There is nothing funny about 'black' jokes. Why would I find it funny when it was used against my ancestors to dehumanize them? As a black man I have to pay respect to my black ancestors. I have to give them the respect that they never recieved.
I know my black ancestors don't want me to play games with my life and I also know god doesn't want me to play games either. And I am not going to sit here and play games with anybody else so please don't play games with me.
This situation is PAINFULLY serious.
Quote from: Second*N*Line on September 14, 2006, 23:19:46
I am sure they were just kidding when they depicted the black man as an over sexed beast who was dangerous to society. I am sure they are just kidding when they depict my brothers and sisters in media as dumb animals who can't think for themselves.
This situation is PAINFULLY serious.
I kinda agree with what they sed, not all but some, societiy has made them that way. Are you saying thats not ture many of these stupid crap gansters need to be put to sleep
Iam not racist, i just dont like crapy people they disgust me i know we are all one its that part of us that disgust me
Quote from: Second*N*Line on September 14, 2006, 23:00:41
I am a 21 year old black man. I take myself very seriously. I take my black people very SERIOUSLY. I resent any jokes or unwarranted ridicule on my people because it only creates a situation where people start to deny the reality of black people as a whole. For years black people have had to deal with stereotypes that tried to reduce them down to mere animals whose only purpose was to fulfill primitive desires(i.e. such as these disgraceful pictures and depictions of black people gorging themselves on fried chicken and watermelon.)
Now I don't know what kind of black folks your hanging around but to me it sounds like your black friends may not have sufficient knowledge of themselves. Any black man or woman who knows their TRUE history would not make jokes about themselves or their people.
I am a strong black man.
When I walk outside I want the respect that I deserve.
I don't want anybody making jokes about me because I am not a joke.
My black skin is not a joke.
My black ancestors were not a joke.
It was not a joke when they brought my people on slave ships to the Americas.
My reality is real and I am a human being that is capable of experiencing a wide range of emotions. I feel I should be treated with a certain level of respect like everyone else.
This is not a game right here.
Second*N*Line - I see, well, I live in Brazil, 50% of the population is black, the other 50% is a mixture of many races, I think we all get along well, but of course, there is racism over here too, though it's hard to see where it could be coming from, and it is thoroughly condemned (the person goes to jail no bail).
I'm descendand of Portuguese and Natives, the Natives suffered here as much as the Africans, maybe more, it was their land that was taken over, their women were raped, their people enslavered and slaughtered.
Had the Natives been able to rise again like your people did I'm sure they would be proud of it too, to feel good about having the blood from this land running in their veins, and watching their children grow with the hope of a future of dignity.
I'm not the most qualified person to talk about this situation because my country
is a big carnival, I pretty much don't understand racism and all this prejudice, but oh well, I don't understand many other things...
They make jokes about blacks, about blonds, about portuguese, japanese, turks, but they don't make jokes about native indians, it is relieving that some of the black people can laugh now, after all the suffering they have gone through, now they walk upon their feet and solely on their own merit, the indians can't laugh just yet.
I suggest all of you listen to the auidio message below to understand where i am coming from.
http://media.putfile.com/message-to-astral-pulse
I don't want you all to think that I am one of these people who refuses to believe that there aren't some things wrong in my community. I know that the black cummunity has its problems but I don't want people making jokes because that causes innocent black people to suffer. Some people hear a joke and laugh. They see it as funny. However I see the joke as a devaluation of the black race.
I once had somebody come up to me and call me 'homeboy'. I remember thinking "homeboy? wait a minute, thats not my name. Its not what my mom named me. Has he lost his mind?" I don't like it either when people call me that dreaful N word. And it doesn't matter who says it. I don't want to hear it from anyone, not even my own people. All that word does is just support the devaluation of my race. There are many other things that support this devaluation and they are very subtle.
Quote from: Second*N*Line on September 15, 2006, 00:54:54
I suggest all of you listen to the auidio message below to understand where i am coming from.
http://media.putfile.com/message-to-astral-pulse
I don't want you all to think that I am one of these people who refuses to believe that there aren't some things wrong in my community. I know that the black cummunity has its problems but I don't want people making jokes because that causes innocent black people to suffer. Some people hear a joke and laugh. They see it as funny. However I see the joke as a devaluation of the black race.
I once had somebody come up to me and call me 'homeboy'. I remember thinking "homeboy? wait a minute, thats not my name. Its not what my mom named me. Has he lost his mind?" I don't like it either when people call me that dreaful N word. And it doesn't matter who says it. I don't want to hear it from anyone, not even my own people. All that word does is just support the devaluation of my race. There are many other things that support this devaluation and they are very subtle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzW_BhN0jpU
LOL
Quote from: BadCookie on September 15, 2006, 01:01:45
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzW_BhN0jpU
LOL
That video is a disgrace and the people in that video are even more disgraceful. They might as well have got some people to be in 'black face'. It reminds me of something that would be in a racist movie like Birth of a Nation.
Most of you here have aquired some level of spiritual understanding but I see there are some things on this earth that you don't even understand yet. No one will be able to explain this to you. Its something that you are going to have to find out for yourself.
Man i have respect for your post your the kinda black man i would like to meet. your not nation of islam right?
Quote from: Second*N*Line on September 15, 2006, 01:07:02
Most of you here have aquired some level of spiritual understanding but I see there are some things on this earth that you don't even understand yet. No one will be able to explain this to you. Its something that you are going to have to find out for yourself.
Okay, this doesn't really have anything to do with HOW to deal with a racist in a civilized manner - if that is even possible.
Second*N*Line, I don't understand racism because it is illogical to me.
A big problem is people get overly emotional about it. I happen to have a white skin. I also live in South Africa. I am part of a racial minority here and believe me, the apartheid past is being rubbed into the faces of whites over and over and over again.
Yet, I bear no resentment. The only problem I have is this: Why should I pay for the sins of my grandfather? Socially and economically. I had absolutely nothing to do with apartheid, yet, still I do not respond emotionally.
I would go so far as to say that most of the human race still has some serious emotional maturity left to accomplish. And there I am judging again. *Sigh*
There is also something called "reverse racism"...... please think about that for a while.
Because if you tell me that I am a racist just because I am white and call you a "black person" or refer to you as "the black guy" because I don't know your name I also get offended.
Quote from: Mydral on September 15, 2006, 03:20:16
There is also something called "reverse racism"...... please think about that for a while.
Because if you tell me that I am a racist just because I am white and call you a "black person" or refer to you as "the black guy" because I don't know your name I also get offended.
Why don't you ever see anybody refer to another human being by the color of their eyes?
"Hey, blue eyed guy! Yeah you! You want an ice-cream? I heard blue-eyed guys liked ice-cream."
Yes, there is also a cultural element. Which means that the racist generalize based on culture and in his/her ignorance uses the skin color as a rough guide.
Quote from: interception on September 14, 2006, 16:50:18
*Sigh*... I knew I should have left out the South Africa part. Pretend I am from Australia. Or Alabama in the USA. :roll:
i dont really understand why you are sighing.. never said all the people i knew from SA are like that.. just a few.. in fact one mate is very tolerable of anything.
QuoteWhy don't you ever see anybody refer to another human being by the color of their eyes?
lol I have OFTEN said this exact same thing! Why stop at skin? Why not differentiate based on eye color or hair color. Although I guess blonds do have their fair share of jokes. I personally have never understood the whole concept that different colored skin makes you different but different colored hair or eyes is ok. :? :?
QuoteIf he is just kiding with the boys and not saying ugly things to black people its ok
But I think Interception is correct, his co-worker isn't kidding. If he was, he would not be conscientious enough NOT to make jokes with blacks in the same room because he
knows they would be offended. If he is aware enough to watch what he says around whom, then I think there is more than 'good-natured' joking as the reason for the comments.
QuoteThere is also something called "reverse racism"...... please think about that for a while.
I agree here as well. I haven't noticed it very often, but I have experienced it myself. I worked my way through college at a copy shop and there were both whites and blacks on staff at the store. One black man was very nice, but was blatantly prejudiced against whites. I don't know how many times he would pass by 3 or 4 white customers in line, to help the first black person in line. And he always began with something like "how can I help you my brother". None of the customers felt comfortable saying anything to him about it, but everyone looked annoyed. Then one day he did it to a black man, with that same greeting. The man pointed out that there were other people ahead of him in line. The co-worker didn't even look at the others. Instead he just gave his head a nod and repeated himself. By now the two other customers were being helped. The black customer finally looked at me, this small white girl, and in an exasperated voice asked "Miss, can you help me." It was all I could do not to laugh out loud. It was like a huge slap in the face to my co-worker.
I think its like anything else in life. Being proud and confident of who and what you are is a wonderful thing. But it needs to stop at the point at which it becomes uncomfortable or rude to others, regardless of their race, gender, nationality, etc. And I know I'm preaching to the choir here.
QuoteThere are procedures yes, but I if I do go that route it is going to become very unpleasant. So much so that I will be forced to find alternative employment. He has a much more experience in what we do, than me. Its just me and him running the unit. So its likely he will stay, and I will go.
I dont want that either, if I can help it....not right now.
Actually, misterjingo's question was exactly what I was thinking as well. And I'm sure it depends upon the country and corresponding laws/tolerances. In the US, there needs to be proof of the offense. If it is proved, 'theoretically' the guilty person is punished, not the person making the claim. Of course, I said 'theoretically' because unfortunately, the person making the claim can become an unofficial target in retaliation if the person found guilty was popular or powerful within the company. Even though it is not supposed to happen like that here in the US, everyone knows that it does. And its usually done so inconspicuously that it is difficult to actually prove. I guess that's the kind of reprisal you are also worried about.
It isn't an easy to answer question and I think the solution is highly subjective. It basically comes down to "what is your comfort level?" Everyone has lines of their own that they won't cross. You need to determine what you will and will not tolerate. And then you need to figure out what your options are if/when you are faced with whatever it is you won't tolerate. Thus far, you verbalizing your discomfort at the remarks puts them at bay for awhile, but not permanently. Are you willing to simply keep mentioning this whenever he makes a comment? Or are you getting to the point where you need to take it one step further? Even if you don't want to officially 'report' him to HR (in the US the department that handles these types of issues is called Human Relations) or whatever the equivalent is in your country, the least you could do would be to talk to someone there about additional suggestions. You don't need to mention names, but tell them you are having this problem and ask them what they would suggest you do. They may be able to give you some other options you hadn't thought of yet.
QuoteI once had somebody come up to me and call me 'homeboy'. I remember thinking "homeboy? wait a minute, thats not my name. Its not what my mom named me. Has he lost his mind?" I don't like it either when people call me that dreaful N word.
I completely agree with everything you said. I've never heard anyone actually use the word homeboy, but I've heard it in movies. Its another word I would never use. Just like there are words used to describe/call women that I will never utter for the same reason. I find them rude beyond words.
And I simply cannot tolerate the N word either. I've seen it used in movies where a black person will call another one by that name. I cringe everytime I hear it. I don't care whose mouth utters it, I personally find it extremely offensive .... and I'm not even black. :x
Quote from: Sunn on September 15, 2006, 05:06:44
i dont really understand why you are sighing.. never said all the people i knew from SA are like that.. just a few.. in fact one mate is very tolerable of anything.
I sighed because there is a stigma clinging to white skinned South Africans regarding racism. A stigma that inevitably tainted this discussion a bit.
Thanks, Novice, for the insightful comments. :-)
Quote from: interception on September 15, 2006, 10:15:52
I sighed because there is a stigma clinging to white skinned South Africans regarding racism. A stigma that inevitably tainted this discussion a bit.
yes but it is true.. never said EVERY white person from south africa is a racist.. but a few people know from there generally are.