Deleted

[Anonymous]

I really try to watch what I say for two reasons-

(1) because I don't like confrontations. I feel there's nothing to gain from them except maybe the knowledge that one should watch what they say more closely. Carelessly throwing out words is like having a gun and not caring which direction you shoot it in- there will likely be undesired results. Most people are offended very easily, mostly due to their image. Just about anything one says can be taken offensively in one way or another. People in this country sue for ridiculous reasons, and I think that this issue is just a microcosmic example of that. I find that sometimes people tend to nit-pick every single little word in someone's sentence and then try to cross-analyze them and figure out their motive behind their statements. They play psychologist. Also, if you say something without careful word choice, you may end up saying something you didn't necessarily mean to say. Sometimes I find that people use inappropriate words for their sentences, i.e. they could've thrown in a word that better defined what they were trying to say. I can still understand what they're trying to say, but others who are unable to figure out what that person is trying to say will likely be confused, and may ask a question which the other person will find offensive, or they tear that person apart. Thus ignorance perpetuates the infamous chatroom battling (but in the form of a forum).

(2) I like to be accurate with what I say. I want to make sure that what I say conveys my thoughts as closely as possible. It is good to have a large vocabulary for this purpose. That way, if someone does say something to me or has a question, I will be able to explain myself better than I would if I just threw in some words to fill in some gaps in my sentences. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit here. I know that I don't always do this, none of us do. Sometimes we are in a rush and need to finish our post, so we say things in a way that may not be the the best way to say them.

I don't find that a lot of people on this forum just throw in words for the heck of it. I think Tom conveys his thoughts very nicely. I can easily understand his posts. Timeless's posts are also easy to follow- she goes from one idea to another in a way that flows nicely. Me, well, I'm a bit scatter-brained, myself. I have ideas, and sometimes I can't type fast enough to be able to relate the ideas on the post like they are in my brain, but I think a lot of people here are able to see the connections (most of the time).

I would also like to say that I agree that the quality of the posts seems to have gone down a bit, but I am confident that there will be good ones soon. There have been a good number of posts about Iraq and the US and other current matters. This is fine, but I think we have way too many of them, and I think there is a lot of negativity there, in the way that people argue which side is right and then tell others they are wrong to believe what they believe. I don't see a whole lot of this, but this is how it appears to most people, I think. What I see is a gigantic comnmunication problem between people. I have to get going now, but I'll elaborate on this later.

[Nerezza]

Criticism of ideas can be the most insulting thing to happen to someone who believes in something passionately. Try telling a fundamentalist christian that there was no Jesus Christ and see how long before the debate degrades into insults and character
assasinations. We all have our breaking points.

Given the fact that there are alot of new people here, and that things are happening in the world which require people to form a solid opinion, im surprised there isn't more fighting here.

[Anonymous]

To elaborate on what I was saying earlier, I see a large communication problem regarding the posting of peoples' ideas. Some people do post thoughtless things which insult others, even if they don't mean it that way. Calling someone's idea dumb or stupid or whatever because of not feeling like explaining oneself is unjustifiable. It is a careless misuse of words which does harm to others.

The things that are posted have more to do with a person's ego. It's very apparent when someone posts things influenced by their ego. This is why I try not to "bash" people- there's no need for it. Everyone's ego gets out of hand now and then, and people say things they don't mean. I think it is important for us to regognize this and not say anything bad to the person, but rather, respond as if they said what they said in a nice way. We are all teachers and students of each other. We can learn from each other, and we can change ourselves. That which is outside of us we cannot control, and that which is inside of us we have complete control over. To each their own.

[kakkarot]

words are very dangerous tools: one mispoken word can bring big repurcussions, even if it was well meant. nations have fought, people have killed, over one misunderstood word (not very often, but it has happened).

people can choose vastly different paths over one word in someone's advice. a person can admonish and rebuke using the same word in different contexts. ambiguity of words can cause clouds of uncertainty and confusion, which can often lead to anger and loathing.

one word can be the difference between life and death.

~kakkarot

[Anonymous]

Words are dangerous, but the most powerful weapon of all is the mind, because all else has come from it.

[Anonymous]

Even more dangerous is a great number of closed minds.

[Anonymous]

I think you're right. I have tried not to fall into that trap of giving others' words power over me because I feel that if I am their equal, there is no point in me needing to give them power. I am already part of a group- the human race.

[Anonymous]

We are what we eat, physically anyway, as it is assimilated into our bodies and used to fuel us as well. There is always another layer of us humans to unveil when it comes to who we are, however. Once you get past the looks, there's the opinions. Once you get past those, it's an outermost layer of beliefs. There's no telling how many more layers there are from there, because they are just layers of beliefs. Eventually, if you know the person long enough, you may learn what their core, fundamental beliefs are. But maybe not all of them. If someone knew literally everything about you, wouldn't you feel threatened? I would because I know that humans are not perfect. Even our loved ones. I would not want someone shaking, breaking, or destroying the very foundations of my soul. I haven't met anyone I can trust to that point.

[cainam_nazier]

Timeless,

  I know for me I am, more often than not, a man of few words.  I think this is because that for the most part I want to ensure that what I say is not taken the wrong way.   There is also the case of impact and effect.  I see no need to talk certain people if I know that what I say will not be heard.  I also do my best not to talk about things that I know nothing about, unless of course I am trying to learn more.  But I will admit when I am wrong if some one is kind enough to point it out and why.  
  The best piece of advise I ever got and can ever offer any one else is this.  "The less you open your mouth, the less likely your foot will get stuck in it."

quote:Why do you think we give other people's words so much power over us?

   I do not think that it is so much that we give them power over us, it is just the impact that words have, more so in this format.  When communicating in this way all we have is words.  There is no body language, voice tone, or facial expressions.  The words a person uses here decide how we view that person.  A few chosen words decide for us if you are an 8 year old child who just found daddy's computer or if your actually a person who may know what they are talking about.  A few chosen words tell us if you are honest or deceitful, calm, angery, sad, crazy, suicidal, homicidal, ect. ect.  
   In this format we have no other basis for our opinions than words.  This makes the choice of words extreamly critical.  It also makes it even more difficult for us, the readers, to make an accurate theory on just who the auther is.  Unfourtunately it often only takes one bad post to permantly scare a persons reputation, because as is the way of the world, no matter how much good you do you need but fall once and every one else will turn on you.

quote:I guess what I was trying to get at is the Why. Why do people insult each others ideas? Why do we tie ourselves personally to ideas? Why can't we just pick up an idea look at it and then when a better one comes along let go of the old one?

  Change.  As a whole people fight change.  It is often that people can not see the good that can from some changes until after the fact.  And until it becomes so it is resisted with every fiber of our being.  It is only when the idea or situation has become so extream is change welcomed.  But even then it is often done witha disgruntled attitude.

Enderwiggin,

quote:Eventually, if you know the person long enough, you may learn what their core, fundamental beliefs are. But maybe not all of them. If someone knew literally everything about you, wouldn't you feel threatened?

   No I wouldn't feel threatened.  I would feel relieved.  There would no longer be a need to hide what you think for fear of how that person may feel about it.  Because if they knew every thing about you and they were still around the there would be no need to worry because they would already be okay with who you really are.

[astralspinner]

"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it" - a quote I always liked

[Anonymous]

"Men will despise you only if you first despise yourself." It is true that if we fall even once, the world seems to turn on us. But we can start over. We can rebuild. The world is full of hypocracy, so there is no need for anyone to feel that they are lesser to others. He who points their finger at another is pointing three fingers back at themselves. We have all made an equal number of faults by the time we die, in one way or another. The difference is that some peoples' faults are just more concealed and less obvious than others.

Maybe you're right about someone knowing everything about you. I never thought of it that way.I guess the closer you are to somebody, the faster rate you end up knowing them.

[jilola]

If someone knew everything about me?
I think I'd be a it frightened at first, but perhaps not for the usual reasons. I think that we all will meet someone like that at some point along our Life (note capital []) Meeting that person means we have been presented with the ultimate opportunity to learn what have been, are, and will become. And that is scary. It's quite comparable to waking up on the savannah with endless journeys to choose from.

But more on the topic.

1) We all have egos. But many, if not most, don't realize that egos are theproduct of the illusion of individualit and that because of that we can choose whether uour ego gets bruised or not. Sometimes ignorance is bliss []

2) After we've chosen to have our ego dented and start a reactionary battle with words thought indeed recedes. At this point we give in to the illusion and the illusion takes over. Hence the reactionary reading and responding that borders violence were words actual objects.

3) "We must lose what we wish to gain" is another way of putting the old golden rule. But any response we get from others needs to be taken against the background of the responders current lesson. They may be learning that bashing peoples ideas and questions is not the way to go. We all have done that at some point.

4) Words are the physical approximation of communicating a soul state. Only in the physical the response to such a communication can be destructive.

5) It always stuns me wen I think how people get offended and outright enraged by an idea. Ideas are just that. They are nothing until given form by a response and/or action. Also an idea can be dependent on the totality of the one presenting it. My ideas of karma are not consistent with the classical definition but for me my idea makes perfect sense. The classical definition and idea is just as good for someone else. Alway remember this about ideas: YMMV, Your Mileage May Vary.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[kakkarot]

nay,nay. i believe that words have control over all (ourselves and others). a single misplaced word can cause rifts between close friends, but a single well placed word can draw those rifts shut.

people interpret these words in their own manner and judge for themselves what they mean. because of this words can have great impact over human interactions. and the wise man is the one who knows when to say the right thing, and when to say nothing at all.

~kakkarot

[Fat_Turkey]

Wow this is a mighty-full pot of gold of ideas and lessons[].

But could somebody please start to summarise the thoughts and lessons here? I mean I can think long and hard about an idea, but there are so many here and so many sayings and confusing ways they are put together that although the lessons are incredibly useful, I find that theres just a great big mess of puzzle pieces waiting to be put together that I can't seem to reach.

So far I've learnt that one should be careful what one says, as others have egos that are easily damaged, and once an ego is damaged, it causes a reaction. Egos are the fragility and concept of having an image and protecting that. Reputations are the result of an ego. Some egos are easily damaged by simply presenting an idea, usually in the wrong way, or even if you said it the right way, people don't accept change, as their minds are closed.

I'm gonna be rereading this for days now... I think this is probably one of the wisest posts I've read in a long time.

[Lysear]

Some interesting points have been raised in this discussion. However I would also like to add something that has been neglected thus far. Human beings have a range of emotions and reactions, both "good" and "bad". I really don't think it is beneficial to our human development, even our phsyical and psychical well being to push down those emotions that are not passive. Let me explain, anger is a very healthy emotion and it's healthy to release pent up anger to avoid problems. A major teaching of many  spiritual systems is to obtain a balance between your passive and agressive sides, and this will help you reach enlightenment. For example, if your too passive and go around apologising for everything, then you exue a certain nature and people are going to take advantage of that and it shows a very weak nature in that person . Likewise, if your too aggressive and go around rubbishing everyones opinion then you are certainly not going to make any friends or learn much.

This method translates to life in this forum on a day to day basis as well.I wrote this because I believe there are people on this forum, in fact everyone, who need to remember this from time to time (myself included!) Instead of tip-toing around people and letting them delude themselves you can provide helpful tips, sometimes being a bit firm in your responses. And on the flip-side, there are people, plenty of them, who can benifit from taking a step back, thinking before you speak, perhaps listening to something someone is telling you and generally not being as abrasive as they come across.

Am I making sense? do people disagree with me on this?

[Anonymous]

To summarize, I believe all is already balanced, and this recent series of discussions was a lesson to teach us this. We were simply not seeing it that way. There is no need for anybody to change anything about themselves. They must learn to preserve the balance within themselves. Why were some of us irritated? Because we saw people kissing arse and following a clique mentality. It was but an illusion. We all have free will and can say or do what we want with it, regardless. When we choose to let another's words affect us, it's our problem, not theirs. In this mess of illusions of the world, it is our job to find reality.

[Anonymous]

I know what you're probably thinking- What IS the reality? Well, that's not for us to tell each other. It is something we must figure out on our own, lest we pay the karmic consequences of interfering with another's free will.

The summary: Carry on.

[Fat_Turkey]

Thanks it really cleared up things a lot.

Later
-FT

[Lysear]

Timeless, that was a good post, I understand what you are saying.

[James S]

Great post Timeless! Real good thinking stuff this!
Had I not been away for the last few days, I could have got the jump on some of these really good responses posted by others. Oh my poor bruised ego![]

After reading through the other posts I'll see if I can avoid repeating the words of others in my thoughts:

Yes I agree that the wise are aware of their egos and have learned to remove it from their words. This really does depend on how you define "ego" though. I see ego as being a hinderence, a selfishness that requires your needs and opinions to be set above those of others. I see ego as being anti self-confidence. The less self confidence or self assurance someone has, the more they are prone to being controlled by ego.

An active ego will tend not to permit someone from seing a point of view that contradicts their own. Stubbornness is another facit of egotism. Wisdom stops the ego from controlling ones perspective and allows openess towards the thoughts of others.

I'd just like to say that I have absolutely NO ego, and I'm Damn PROUD of it!! []

From Proverbs - "wisdom is few when words are many".
Solomon was considered to be the wisest of all men who lived. He was very critical of those who had trouble holding their tongues. It seems the more people are talking, the less they are thinking about their words.

The wise tend to listen more than they speak.
How many times have you encountered the situation where someone (let's say ME, cause I've certainly been guilty of this) has been so busy prepairing in their mind exactly what they're going to say to you in response, that they haven't heard a word you've said.

I really liked Jilola's point # 5. They're good words!!!
It's for exactly this reason I highlited the word "opinion" so much in a reply post to the topic I started about the quality of recent posts. Yeah, really thought I did a good job on that one.... hehehe... down ego, DOWN!![]
It was my very clever wife that really woke me up to this one. Opinins are only that - opinions. It isn't THE truth, it mightn't even be A truth, it's an opinion. Nothing to start a war over.

Wisdom to all...
James.

P.S. Timeless,
Your last illustrations on this topic were VERY good!

[James S]

Hello Timeless,

Yes I can clearly see your perspective on this. Your explainations are clear and well written.
An illusionary separation from our Source brought on by our immersion in the material world - it does make sense. I had not considered this concept before.

I have always looked upon ego as being a negative influence. I would have considered our uniqueness to be more a function of personality than ego. Though my ego is still something that I consider needs to be carefully held in check, I feel that there is perhaps a necessary element to it that makes up an essential part of my personality. Maybe it is not entirely negative after all.

Thank you for the thoughts.
James.

[timeless]

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