Dennis Kucinich

[jc84corvette]

"Spy on your net activities without warrant."

The government has been doing this for a long time. A perfect example is the Federal Bur   eau of Investigation's Carnivore program. It reads everyone's emails and searches for words like "Terrorist, guns, weapons, bombs, 9/11, 9-11, biological, chemical, mass death". The list goes on and on.

I think that is a great program. It probably saved many lives around the world but it takes our privacy away. I think that's ok for our protection. Freedom isn't free.

The rest of your post brings up interesting points but I will address them later, I have to go outside in the -5 temperature and do stuff!

Oh and I like Bush. []

[Impunity]

However much I would like a green or independant party to end up in office it will not happen, and id like to be idealistic enough to think it could but at this point its not a possibility, if you want to get rid of bush the most likely people who can take him out of office are Clark or Dean, id prefer clark as dean doesnt seem all that bright either.
What people fail to realize is you cant control other people, they can crack down all they want on terrorism but they cant stop every attack.  The more they crack down, the more  people will attempt to attack us, there is no such thing as complete safety.  Hell, Israel is basically a police state and they're bombed every other day.  Instead of looking to control people we should be looking to fundemental causes behind actions taking place.  I'm not saying the terrorists are right for attacking americans, killing is wrong no matter who you are.  But they perceive themselves as trying to rid themselves of Israel who is constantly stealing more land and is backed by the United States government, hence the United states is a target, not because we love freedom, not because we hate muslilms (i would hope most of us dont hate anyone) but because we aid israel so vehemently.   Israel tries to steal more land from the palestinians via the new wall being built, we tell them not to and they do anyways, so what do we do to punish them?  We withhold 2 million dollars in aid, out of 2.6 BILLION/year.  Its a sham, we really dont care.
Same with the war on drugs, if someone really wants to pick up a heroin needle and put it into their veins THEY WILL DO IT and NOBODY can stop them.
America is headed down a dark path, especially with the patriot acts.
Its amazing what you can do with fear, Hitler used fear of jewish people to turn Germany into a dictatorship, and then to proceed to extinguish many many millions of lives for no good reason.  Now our government is starting to do the same thing but instead of fearing the Jews we fear the "Naughty Middle-easterners".  Fear is the most primitive of all emotions and the government and media are very good at playing those chords.  Now before you yell at me about how that could never happen in America take a look inside your mind and wonder why these things I say could upset you so much, could it be because it's the truth and you know it on some level? Mayhaps
I have faith that the American public will wake up, that's all I can have is faith

</RANT>

-Impunity

-“Those that would sacrifice freedom for safety deserve neither" -Benjamin Franklin

[Rob]

The problem with giving government all these new powers is that it basically serves up a whole new platter of methods to screw people over with. Add to that a dynastic style government structure and the potential for serious power to be abused grows enormously.

I was listening to an interview yesterday and it was said that power by its very definition must grow and collect more power to it (history does seem to prove this out). Conversely then freedom can only grow by release of those control systems.

"I think that is a great program. It probably saved many lives around the world but it takes our privacy away"

I wonder how many more it has destroyed? I guess its impossible to say either way.

Rob

[holy reality]

quote:I think that is a great program. It probably saved many lives around the world but it takes our privacy away

"he that would trade a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security deserves neither."

This was said by a man who knew what he was talking about, Benjamin Franklin.

How many rights is it okay to give away so the boogie men dont' get us? How close to a police state do you want us to get? Where do you draw the line? YOU DON'T, they draw it for you. Don't like their regulations? BOOM, a building falls down, they say they need more of them, you suck it up and say okay and support the war machine.

I'm kind of unsure about monitoring internet activities.. by itself it isn't so horrible but when you give them the power to detain anyone they want that crosses the line.

I mean, I just said "boom" what if I got flagged and some patriotic moron didn't like my tone and thought I was questioning the government too much and the next day I disappeared? Well.. it can't quite legally happen yet, but rest assured they want it to, and they tried (Patriot II).

I mean spying isn't so bad if you actually have to have evidence before you go arresting and detaining people. Then of course the secret military tribunals.

You're bonked. We all are if we don't do something about it before it gets out of hand.

And yes Dean/Clark are the more likely to defeat Bush but it doesn't hurt at all to vote for Kucinich in the primaries, he has a lot of support out there but most people are like "I like him but I'd better not vote for him."

Well if he were a third party candidate I'd understand the argument but how does it hurt if you vote for him in primaries? Assuming he wins enough he may become VP, or the main Dem nominee.... from there it's up to him to stay quiet about his real views and try his hardest to put on a pretty smile and appease the hicks and swing voters....

I'm sure if he got the main Dem nomination he'd carry all the normal Dem states... the swings... well.. we can hope, can't we?

So I'm saying, vote for him in the primaries... if he doesn't make it till the end then vote for the lesser of two evils.

Frankly I'm worried Clark is just a republican in disguise... his website really doesn't talk about his stances on issues at all.. he could be doing this because his issues are real liberal and he doesn't want the common voter to think he's too far left... or it could be the exact opposite.

But... really in my mind Kucinich / Braun / Sharpton seem to be the best bets but two of them are black and one a woman, so... that wouldn't really go over too well... I'm unsure of whether I like Clark better than Dean and vice versa.

here are some more good reads:
(government planned terror on our own citizens)
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/jointchiefs_010501.html

very disturbing not too biased (all things are biased though) comparison between us and the beginnings of Nazi Germany
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm

Then we have this O Neil guy that claims Bush was planning to go to war with Iraq since January 2001.

[Impunity]

You're absolutely right it wouldn't hurt to vote for them in the primaries, ill probably do so, but i have to read their web sites and figure out where they "supposedly" stand on issues.
I misread your original post

-Impunity



-Please protect me from the boogie man!

[TheLunatic]

quote:Originally posted by jc84corvette

"Spy on your net activities without warrant."
The government has been doing this for a long time. A perfect example is the Federal Bur   eau of Investigation's Carnivore program. It reads everyone's emails and searches for words like "Terrorist, guns, weapons, bombs, 9/11, 9-11, biological, chemical, mass death". The list goes on and on.

I don't really understand this. Are you telling me terrorist don't know how to use PGP? come on...

[Aries]

I think the US government is Evil, and will Rig elections. If not, they could just have this Kunich guy assassinated, like JFK.
Theres nothing any of us could do to stop anything the Government does. They are doing what is best for them selfes, and as long as the public is paying for everything then they wont stop.
-Aries

[holy reality]

First of all, for those unaware.

The PATRIOT Act

Basically, in addition to lost of needed law enforcement enhances, it destroys a huge chunk of the bill of rights.

It allows the government to:
Spy on your net activities without warrant.
Detain people indefinitely and try them in a secret military tribunal without any evidence.

among other things. Your standard gestapo tactics just mainly focused on minorities and immigrants.

anyone curious about shady government doings should take a look here:
www.thememoryhole.org it is biased, as are all sites, but all information is backed up and cited, and therefore more or less "true", some of it is quite disturbing.

You could call Kunicich a hybrid Green/Democrat... he promises to remove much of the bad things about the patriot act while keeping the sensible stuff. He is pro decriminalization and realises the futility and hypocracy of the war on drugs, and he WILL greatly reform the way it is brought about.

Basically, he is the best shot this country has at going back to what it is SUPPOSED TO BE, a country run by the people, not big businesses, a country that cares about freedom and peace, not corruption and oil.

I'd implore you all to research him and if you are so inclined, vote for him... but PLEASE do not dismiss him as some post smoking, tree hugging hippy (which isn't very accurate) without reading what he has to say... people that ignorant shouldn't be voting int he first place, yet sadly it's those people that are probably going to keep Bush in office.

I'd say any dem is better than Bush but I'd implore you all to vote Kucinich in the primaries/caucuses, he's our best shot at freedom.

Look at my signature for some nifty quotes.

"All young Americans deserve a world without end, not a war without end."
www.kucinich.us

also do realize that Bush is planning on or at least thinking about starting a draft, draft boards are being filled and information on official govt sites about it removed (suspicious, largely, see thememoryhole.org) and I can vouch for the accuracy as I went and read the government sites before they took the info down.

So this is my plea, vote Kucinich... but at the very least...don't vote for tyranny (Bush).

i'd also like to mention that even though most of the Dems suck, now is not the time to be voting third party if you want Bush gone... these elections are probably going to be closer than they've ever been before.