Disillusioned Reality

[Selski]

In my humble opinion, humanity has completely lost the plot.  I'm not saying that I know what the plot is, or what it was before we lost it, but we (meaning humanity in general) are so far from it, it's untrue.

We watch mindless, numbing, idiotic programmes on TV and call it "entertainment".  (This stems for a conversation today with someone who has been watching "I'm a celebrity – get me out of here" – a UK programme).  I had absolutely no comprehension as to how anyone would want to watch a programme like that, and yet I was told it has millions of viewers.  After this conversation, I seriously contemplated throwing my television out of the window.

The biggest "Thing" we are chained to is something we created – little pieces of paper with ink on – money – and these bits of paper cause so much negativity (to name a few; sadness, anger, greed, hatred, and jealousy).

We want to save the animals, but only the ones that are cute and appealing.  If kitten became a fashionable dish in the UK... (Well, that simply wouldn't happen).  And yet we happily munch away on lamb – which are just as cute; one rule for one.  We are content to be blind.  So the bigger (in size) the animal, the more "feelings" they have do they – hmmmm.  Therefore, to swat a fly because it is annoying you is OK, but to mistreat a horse is inhumane.  

We eat animals.  Let me say that again.  WE EAT ANIMALS.  Good grief.  And we create all sorts of excuses for the reason we eat our fellow inhabitants.    

Hey, I'm not saying I know the answers, or anything.  In fact, I'll admit it – I've just enjoyed a couple of lamb steaks for my dinner.  So I know that these "not so pleasant" aspects of humanity are in me, and whether I do anything about them is completely down to me.

It's simply, at times, I see humanity for what it is, and the fact that I am a human really gets me down.

Over and Out.

Sarah

[CaCoDeMoN]

Not everyone eats animals - I am a vegetarian. I think that eating meat just for pleasure is abominable. Only children need to eat meat, because it's good source of proteins, much healthier than milk.
You are right that typical people don't want to see things as they really are. There are also many other examples of this, like with death penalty, or war in Iraq, etc.

[Selski]

CaCoDeMon

Thank you for your response.  

I know where you are coming from about meat (sort of) but my "argument" with humanity (excuse my terminology - I've never been one for eloquency), is wider than just vegetarianism.

It emcompasses all that we are.  What we are here for (if anything), what we should do (if anything), what morals we should follow (if any), what we are all about I suppose.

I have these horrible spells when I think that my imagination/experiences/ spiritual awakening is purely my imagination (because I want/need to escape physical reality).

Help.  I'm drowning, not waving.

Sarah

[CaCoDeMoN]

I have these horrible spells when I think that my imagination/experiences/ spiritual awakening is purely my imagination (because I want/need to escape physical reality).

Help. I'm drowning, not waving.

If you want to believe that your spiritual awakening is real, then test your skills in practice. When I need the proof, I practice magick. I guarantee that remotely mind-controlling my worst enemy to the point she came to me, dropped to her knees, and begged in tears that I will take money from her was extremely motivating. Of course I refused. What's funny, that she's extremely greedy person, money is the only thing that has value for her, and she would never give me even a dollar, and how things changes from one spell....

[Selski]

But CaCoDeMon - I've proved it to myself.

I've done the old playing card test - it nearly blew me away.

And, even so, at times, I doubt - and I hate myself for this doubt.

Because I know - deep down I know - I don't know what I know, but I know.

Sarah

PS  And as an aside, what does it matter if it is "real" or not - as long as it is real to you, then surely, that is all that matters?

[CaCoDeMoN]

Hating yourself for doubt will not do anything good. This can only cause depression. I never hate myself for anything, If I see, that something in my personality needs fixing, I just do everything I can to fix it, but this never involves negative emotions. Before I've learned this I've had extreme depression problems.

[You]

First off, greed did not begin with money. We will always have material wealth, even before gold and jewels were around, men would amass more cattle and goats than they would ever need. Cash is a good thing, the only thing is, wealth is getting DEmaterialized, so I think it's a lot easier to be cheated out of it by nickel and diming than before, and if a guy scams you, you can't even hunt him down and kill him.

Size has nothing to do with it, we eat cows. As for flies, they steal our food, and get germs all over them, I have every right to kill them. What pisses me off are people who kill spiders (yes, I was once guilty of that). Spiders are great, we should save them, it's a symbiotic relationship. They kill our insects, we give them a warm place to stay and attract food to them. They're also very fascinating creatures, we can learn much from their art and beautiful webbing.

Vegetarianism is a hard issue for me. I would actually like to try it for a year, but I REALLY love the taste of meat, I've been raised with it, littered with grease and fat. I can see where you're coming from, but I haven't been around chickens, sea fish, and cows long enough to have any compassion for their personalities or intelligence. They're all cute when they're young (except fish, they're always ugly unless they're the colourful beautiful kind), but we generally eat the ones who are grown up, they are very ugly, have already birthed their young, and only have a life of being milked in herded pens to look forward to. Not that this excuses anything... but to put it into perspective, they wouldn't have lived a life at all if they weren't being raised for food. Besides, if all that reincarnation stuff is true, they have a new life to look forward to.

[CaCoDeMoN]

Vegetarianism is a hard issue for me. I would actually like to try it for a year, but I REALLY love the taste of meat, I've been raised with it, littered with grease and fat. I can see where you're coming from, but I haven't been around chickens, sea fish, and cows long enough to have any compassion for their personalities or intelligence. They're all cute when they're young (except fish, they're always ugly unless they're the colourful beautiful kind), but we generally eat the ones who are grown up, they are very ugly, have already birthed their young, and only have a life of being milked in herded pens to look forward to. Not that this excuses anything... but to put it into perspective, they wouldn't have lived a life at all if they weren't being raised for food. Besides, if all that reincarnation stuff is true, they have a new life to look forward to.

Do you think that when pigs/chickens are raised on industrial farms they enjoy their life? I don't even know if I could call this short period of unimaginable suffering "life". Search for unofficial pictures from such farms, you will be disgusted. Pigs live about 3 months on them, and their natural lifespan is 6 years. I've seen pigs and chickens being scalded with hot water alive in meat processing plants, and I really wish to forget that. And the cows are cute, unless in U.S. they are different. Remember that cows and pigs are much more intelligent than dogs.
I think that true compassion should not be based on creature's appearance...

[Telos]

Animals eat each other. I'm not saying that makes eating meat ok - actually, it probably makes it more savage. But, Sarah, has humanity ever had the plot in the first place?

Thank you so much for your posts. It's refreshing to hear that other people have the same concerns I do.

[CaCoDeMoN]

I think that humans should be better than animals. Animals not only kill to survive, but also for the pure pleasure ot tormenting other animals, as they love to see when another creature suffers. Did you've seen a cat "playing" with mouse? It doesn't want to kill it at once, it cruelly damages the mouse, and tortures it sometimes as long as 5 minutes. Cruelty is one of primal instincts.

[You]

I think that's just natural combat training for cats. Mine loves me, but occasionally she gets an evil streak and tries to clamp her claws (the hind ones hurt) on my hand and bite it. I've learned techniques on how to negate the effectiveness (usually lying still, or pushing my hand into her mouth slowly) but she still gets me from time to time.

I know all about the ways certain meat farmers abuse the animals. The way I see it though, if they're going to die eventually, it doesn't matter, as they would taste bad if they were old and wrinkly. Even so, I did think they lived longer than three months, is that really enough to get them to full size, or is it just the best food expense vs meat time for the producers?

[CaCoDeMoN]

They are using steroids, hormons and antibotics to speed up the growth two times or more. The abuse done by farmers is not a big problem, as it is rare. Much bigger problem is abuse in meat production factories(they can't be called farms anymore) that is systematic and became a standard.

[Gandalf]

Moral of the story, dont watch crap tv.. its depressing!

Have you ever watched Big Brother, X Factor.. etc and actually *felt* your brain cells corroding?

Its 'bread & circuses' as old Seneca would say..  thats all it is; they've just taken a leaf out of the Roman empire's book and updated it, keeping the masses docile and amused with pointless drivile... seems to work, people love it and they don't rebel!

Douglas

[Light Sphere]

It's simply, at times, I see humanity for what it is, and the fact that I am a human really gets me down

Perhaps many people with 1%, 10%, 50% 1000% of your awareness feel the same, or Not! Either way, take away our feelings, "Good" or "Bad", what have we learnt???... it's what we're here for after all.

When you have doubt, look for inspiration. I believe the "signs" can never be too far away from an "open heart". Don't get me wrong, I too have those days - but within the fog of uncertainty I look for that glimmer of light and inspiration... it's always there, it never leaves... just requires an even stronger desire to be found.

There's really nothing stopping anyone from changing the world... "small" or "large", it all counts... but I prefer to set  "Big","Bold" and some would say "Impossible" aspirations. The following story has always helped me regain my inspirational focus... I hope it helps you too;

http://seekers.100megs6.com/Gull.htm

There's a bit of Jonathon Seagull in all of us... if you are ready to change the face of humanity, you can start in this life... or the next!

This is from someone who is only just awakening, "so my words may lack depth and universal understanding"... but they are sent with the warmest motives in mind"... Selski, Do not Despair... "Affirm your Intentions, then Act! ".  

[joya250]

Selski ~

I completely hear you.

I got rid of my tv years ago.   I do, however, still eat meat.   Before I consume the meat, I thank the animal for it's life.  Humans are meat-eaters.  It is nature.  Is nature cruel?  Maybe.  I don't find eating meat wrong, but what I do find wrong is the way the entire meat-industry is run -- and most of you know exactly what I'm talking about.  

But that's not really the reason for your post, the whole meat thing.   That's just one of the tips of the entire messed up iceberg.  

I feel the same way -- questioning my "knowing", my "spirituality"...  is it based on something "real" or is it a coping mechanism.   I don't know if I will ever really know.   Sometimes it all just flows -- and other times I completely crash.

I don't know if the suffering in this world is increasing... but it definitely feels like it.   And it boils down to just one question:  WHY?!?!

WHY?  And what is the point???

Argh.  I think I've joined you in your rant.   Not with the intent to be negative, but I am questioning / questing too.

joya

[Blackstream]

I never got rid of my tv, but I don't watch cable either.  I use my tv to watch anime which is in general a lot more interesting and thought provoking than some stupid tv show.

[Telos]

My evidence is rather circumstantial, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I just came up from a very deep meditation. The suffering of the world doesn't matter.

In my life, being empathetically affected by the world's suffering has done nothing - it has not guided me to courses of action, it has not powered any growth, and it has not given me confidence.

But more importantly, it has not helped others.

Suffering is small. When recognized as such, it can be easily forgotten. At best, it is like a crawling insect that is naturally incapable of flight and has a natural home in places that we wouldn't want to live anyway. But that is a flawed metaphor, because crawling insects are at least alive. Spiritual metaphors are for those inner-child pandering channelled spirits, anyways.

There's no way you can possibly cope with suffering. How can you cope with feelings that you already allow yourself to see?

I apologize if I sounded cryptic or insensitive, but I was just trying to get over the feelings I posted about in my instilling envy thread. It just doesn't make sense to acknowledge suffering in others. Acknowledge only the way you want them to feel, and be respectful to let them feel it.

[CaCoDeMoN]

I apologize if I sounded cryptic or insensitive, but I was just trying to get over the feelings I posted about in my instilling envy thread. It just doesn't make sense to acknowledge suffering in others. Acknowledge only the way you want them to feel, and be respectful to let them feel it.

I would never do such thing. I am not afraid of knowing what's going on, and I think that living in a FULL reality is much more interesting than in a selective reality. Of course what you see is your choice, and you can't be really right or wrong about it.

[Telos]

I am not afraid of knowing what's going on, and I think that living in a FULL reality is much more interesting than in a selective reality.

Absolutely, I don't think what I said is contradictory. Allow me to explain. I stopped short of saying, "suffering isn't real," not because I think it is real, but because it's phenomonally real as a feeling (an acknowledgement). Suffering isn't something but a lack of something, like cold really isn't cold but a lack of heat. (Now why didn't I just say that before? That's more accurate.)

Don't acknowledge the lack of something in others, because then what you're acknowledging is nothing. The acknowledgement results in phenomenoally real feeling, but what you're feeling is nonexistence. So, acknowledge what you have to give and then give. You cannot be the giver of everything for someone, but you can be the giver of everything you have to give.

Acknowledging suffering is being afraid of knowing the truth or, as you put it Cacodemon, "what's going on." Why would you choose sadness if you fully embraced the truths of existence, like the fact that it can be understood through patience, reason, and love? You would see that the world is a great place and the people in it are also great. You would live in a full, free, and much more interesting reality.

But that's my opinion, because I honestly don't find nonexistence an appealing subject of interest.

[Legend]

I knoew where you come from.  But allow me to remark that when we were first put on his earth, humanity had no other means to survive but to eat meat.  You try staying alive on grass (today it's possible because we understand what the body needs and can provide it).  It's no excuse today, but you do have to think that there was a point where it wasn't much about choice but nessecity.

Everything you are attached to is something we have created.  Think about it for a second.

I'm not convinced that size is the issue for killing animals.  I think anoyance is.  Most people feel that insects step into their bubbles and they feel violated by it since they cannot restrain theses insects from going into their bubbles.  Trust me, I'd get pretty agrevated if a horse was walking around me like a fly can.  If the insects lived in an area and wouldn't "bug" <pun intended> us, I dont' think any people would kill them any more than pigs or horses.

Some things are simply done like this by design.  We're here to experiment.  Regardless of what that experiment may be.

In my humble opinion, humanity has completely lost the plot.  I'm not saying that I know what the plot is, or what it was before we lost it, but we (meaning humanity in general) are so far from it, it's untrue.

We watch mindless, numbing, idiotic programmes on TV and call it "entertainment".  (This stems for a conversation today with someone who has been watching "I'm a celebrity – get me out of here" – a UK programme).  I had absolutely no comprehension as to how anyone would want to watch a programme like that, and yet I was told it has millions of viewers.  After this conversation, I seriously contemplated throwing my television out of the window.

The biggest "Thing" we are chained to is something we created – little pieces of paper with ink on – money – and these bits of paper cause so much negativity (to name a few; sadness, anger, greed, hatred, and jealousy).

We want to save the animals, but only the ones that are cute and appealing.  If kitten became a fashionable dish in the UK... (Well, that simply wouldn't happen).  And yet we happily munch away on lamb – which are just as cute; one rule for one.  We are content to be blind.  So the bigger (in size) the animal, the more "feelings" they have do they – hmmmm.  Therefore, to swat a fly because it is annoying you is OK, but to mistreat a horse is inhumane.  

We eat animals.  Let me say that again.  WE EAT ANIMALS.  Good grief.  And we create all sorts of excuses for the reason we eat our fellow inhabitants.    

Hey, I'm not saying I know the answers, or anything.  In fact, I'll admit it – I've just enjoyed a couple of lamb steaks for my dinner.  So I know that these "not so pleasant" aspects of humanity are in me, and whether I do anything about them is completely down to me.

It's simply, at times, I see humanity for what it is, and the fact that I am a human really gets me down.

Over and Out.

Sarah

[CaCoDeMoN]

Absolutely, I don't think what I said is contradictory. Allow me to explain. I stopped short of saying, "suffering isn't real," not because I think it is real, but because it's phenomonally real as a feeling (an acknowledgement). Suffering isn't something but a lack of something, like cold really isn't cold but a lack of heat. (Now why didn't I just say that before? That's more accurate.)

Frequently this is true, but not always. I would never say that about a pain. And not emotional pain, put physical. When yesterday I've felt extreme pain in EVERY bone for a whole day, I didn't even thought of such ideas. The pain is not lack of anything.

Acknowledging suffering is being afraid of knowing the truth or, as you put it Cacodemon, "what's going on." Why would you choose sadness if you fully embraced the truths of existence, like the fact that it can be understood through patience, reason, and love? You would see that the world is a great place and the people in it are also great. You would live in a full, free, and much more interesting reality.

Everyone's interests differ. For you such world is a good choice, I like to live in a world with pain, suffering, problems, and not because I can change it for better then(I can't), but just because it makes life much more colorful. Problems are also here to make us stronger, so the best way for me is to acknowledge them, and use them to strengthen my will. Also for me it is better to see that most of people are rotten to the core, and that see nothing behind their career. Then I can truly understand what's honor for, and I can learn on their mistakes.

[Telos]

I don't see pain and suffering as the same. Actually, I don't find them in anyway connected. Pain is a stimulus response. There are times when I have felt days of pain throughout my entire body as well, especially the time I was bedridden with scarlet fever. However, the pain was bearable because I did not intend to suffer. Does that make more sense? I realize my use of the word is ambiguous and somewhat controversial. I'd like to attempt to clarify it, but I might have to use some philosophical jargon, so please bear with me

I have been speaking of suffering according to a distinguished definition I've made for it by my experience and observations of it. I see the reality of suffering as two-fold.

1) the existential reality of suffering
2) the phenomenal reality of suffering

I see number one as vaporous. Suffering has no physical existence. However, number two is pervasive, for it is experienced as real in the mind wherever there is mind.

I suppose if I used spiritual terminology, I'd say that suffering is "ethereal," although that word is interpreted diversely here.

I also think solving problems helps us become stronger, smarter, and better people, but I don't think that problems have anything to do with suffering, other than the problem of suffering, which people seem to solve in their own ways.

I like problems! I don't like suffering.

But maybe there are those who do? Cacodemon, are you a fan of drama?  I sometimes think I could write a much better drama that didn't rely on suffering. But in that case it would probably enter a different genre, like "suspense."

I think it is possible to heal the pain of others, to help others, to love others, and to give others everything that's givable. However, I don't think that any force can possibily give someone suffering, so it follows that you can't give them relief from that suffering. I have tried, and tried, and tried, with every person I've met, believing I could produce a miracle for them. But it's much much much simpler than that. The miracle is for them to make.

[coolbreeze]

I am happy to say that I grew up without a TV (in the US too!) and it has had a huge affect on my life. Now that we have one I find that I rarely feel like watching it. Its disgusting to see the people who do everything in front of the TV, especially those who are obsessed with reality shows. I mean seriously, who wants to watch people hurt each other, for REAL. Sure a good movie is great once in a while, but I find that without TV I became interested in many other things when I was little, which has lead to me being healthier overall.  I would highly recommend to anyone with young children or who is thinking about starting a family to get rid of the TV until your child is at least 10. It really helps cultivate open minds, curiosity and creativity in the kids.  
About the vegetarian issue, I do support vegetarianism full heartedly, but my parents are against it and said they would not support me in my decision, so I will wait at least until I stop growing (but probably more like when I move out) to become a vegetarian. Plus, tofu is yummy!

[CaCoDeMoN]

You are right Telos, the pain can have nothing to do with suffering, but in most people these two are connected, and I've even seen people that had a two way connection(in them emotional suffering CAN cause physical pain).
And yes, I am a fan of drama, but If you watch closely, you can find dramas hundreds times more tragic than those classical in the lives of common people. And the typical thing that causes whole tragedy is not propely controlled ego.

But maybe there are those who do? Cacodemon, are you a fan of drama? I sometimes think I could write a much better drama that didn't rely on suffering. But in that case it would probably enter a different genre, like "suspense."

I think that genres are not neccesary at all. When I will write a story, it will contain many kinds of emotions, so it will be very real life-like, and colorful (black is a colour too   ). I will probably have an occasion to do so, because I am developing an anime-like cRPG game...

[CaCoDeMoN]

About the vegetarian issue, I do support vegetarianism full heartedly, but my parents are against it and said they would not support me in my decision, so I will wait at least until I stop growing (but probably more like when I move out) to become a vegetarian. Plus, tofu is yummy!

How old are you?