Obviously many Human bodies are connected to souls. If you've had a psychic experience, like OBE or telekinesis, you can be sure. But what about the others, like those who have never done anything psychic, nobody senses anything about them, and they swear they are nothing but their body. Do they have a soul? Why so or not?
Always question your assumptions.
Why every human wouldn't have a soul? Just because they say they are nothing more than their body's means nothing, because they believe it does not make it so.
"Always question your assumptions."
I didnt mean we should pay much attention to if they say they're nothing but their body.
I ask why or why not. You ask why not. Both questions remain unanswered. If you focus on only one of the 2 questions, it doesnt make the other less valid, until it is answered.
Our opinions on everything should be undecided, until we have reason to think otherwise.
So the question you have posed isn't to determine the most logical answer, but to poll people about their opinion correct? That does not lead to answers either, just assumptions.
No. I want the best answer, if it is derived from logic or whatever way is best. I reacted to
QuoteWhy every human wouldn't have a soul?
because it ignores the other half of my question... why would it have a soul?
Logic, starting from the most simple and obvious truths, like X=X and X+1<X+2 etc, is ALWAYS true. But it has problems deriving many vague things. Other methods can beat it in some areas, but must be less accurate.
If we do not know what to look for in the first place, can logic be applied? First of all, define the meaning of soul as you have come to know it.
There are two proofs:
-dead people can be met in astral projection/OOBE
-people frequently have some kind of past lifes memories, that can be found using hypnotic regression, and then their validity can be checked.
lines, logic can always be applied, but is not much useful when you dont know what to look for.
soul = nonphysical thing attached to many (but not necessarily all or most) human bodies, and probably to some other life-forms and maybe to nonliving things. It can interact with physical things, but is mostly nonphysical. In my own experience, it is whatever nonphysical thing I am that is connected to this body I use.
Has the validity of the memories of past lives been proven or has the meaning or messages of the memories been misconstrued to fit the history? Also, is it checked that the information gathered from the regression hasn't been gleened from knowledge gained in their current life?
The same thing goes for AP and OBE's, how well has the existence of meeting the souls of the dead people been proven?
Unless every living being has a soul,it is possible for a human body to exist without one.
it will just have no cunciousness(SP?).
of course,if every living being has a soul,the certainly every human being has a soul...
the question which rises now is-Does every living being has a soul?
and we are back where we started...
I once met a very psychicly powerful dog, so at least some animals have souls. I feel something from plants, but its confusing. I knew a guy who said he did telepathy with plants. But I also sense paranormal things from crystals and other nonliving things. But by some definitions, crystals are alive. They grow more crystals, just very slowly.
Quote
I once met a very psychicly powerful dog, so at least some animals have souls. I feel something from plants, but its confusing. I knew a guy who said he did telepathy with plants. But I also sense paranormal things from crystals and other nonliving things. But by some definitions, crystals are alive. They grow more crystals, just very slowly.
Only when they have necessary substances - CuSO4 in my garage grows very quickly...
Humans grow only when they have the necessary substances. Speed of growth... dont change the subject!
yes every one has a soul, with out the spirit, the body would be dead, all things on earth, stones, rocks, plants, every thing has its own spirt, no spirit, no life.
Quotewith out the spirit, the body would be dead
why?
the spirit gives it life, ever heard of chakras? and energy centres? with humans, the spirit gives the life to the body on first breath.
I know what chakras are, and feel mine, but dont see why they would be necessary to live.
the spirit practically gives it life-force, it animates the body, the chakras and pathways allow life force energy to be transferred, its the spirit that takes control over the body, how can it be animated if there is no driver?
dogma
Beavis,
Not dogma - electricity!
You made a comment - "soul = nonphysical thing attached" - that, in my opinion , is invalid. If that be so, any conclusions drawn from that premise must themselves be invalid.
Where is evidence the soul is non-physical? Other than dogma, of course! :lol:
Manuel is right in stating the soul is the life force of the body. However, again in my opinion, that does not translate into a metaphysical "spirit." I think, at this point in my wanderings, that the human mind is capable, physically, of many more things than have been discovered so far. Astral travel, telepathy, all the rest, are not esoteric, metaphysical, "spirit things," but very real physical abiilities we are just beginning to understand. When we die, and that electrical energy dissipates, then it's over, end of story. Our brain's energy doesn't cease to exist; it just blends with the universal energy, perhaps to one day form another sentient being. Not reincarnation, but more like the fact that we, today, are breathing oxygen that once filled the lungs of no telling how many other creatures. No "metaphysics," just logic.
Any astral experiences in the astral are a reflection of our physical brain working with our equally physical electric energy. At least, that's were my investigations have taken me so far.
I got this straight from Mr. Spock himself! :lol:
well i gotta say greatoutdoors, i totally and utterly...disagree with you on every level on that.
Manuel,
No problem, that's what makes a horse race. :)
But, don't just leave it there -- I stand to be persuaded. In fact, I would like to be persuaded. It would be nice to have "do-overs," given the royal mess I've made of my opportunities! I am a practical person, however, and the fact that I would like to believe in something "more" doesn't justify such belief. I need facts -- profoundly hard to come by!
greatoutdoors:
telekinesis isnt caused by any of the 4 physical forces
QuoteAstral travel, telepathy, all the rest, are not esoteric, metaphysical, "spirit things," but very real physical abiilities we are just beginning to understand.
only if you define physical to mean: anything that is real and can affect physical things
QuoteWhen we die, and that electrical energy dissipates, then it's over, end of story.
souls are not made of electric energy, but i suspect it can be converted
QuoteAny astral experiences in the astral are a reflection of our physical brain working with our equally physical electric energy. At least, that's were my investigations have taken me so far.
That can not explain how "the card test" and other tests of remote viewing (without the body seeing the target first),
can not be reflections of the brain because brain never saw the card. The statistics (if somebody wrote them down, i dont know who) would say people who call themselves psychic usually get a few percent higher trying to "guess" whats on the card.
Beavis,
Thanks for your reply! :D Like I say, I'm not overjoyed at my conclusions so far, I just don't see another explanation.
As to telekenesis, are you sure? How about manipulation of gravity?
Yes, that would pretty much be my definition of "physical." I grant you that String Theory, if proven true, can put a few kinks in the common view of the physical. But even then, if we were able to start hopping between dimensions, it would still be a physical ability. And it would still end when our brain ceased to function.
I don't know if I agree with you about the soul. Our body functions because of the electrical energy generated by our brain and passed through our nervous system. If that energy can no longer flow, then you are paralized (or blind, or whatever). When the electrical energy of the brain ceases, then we are dead. Or, put another way, "the soul leaves the body." I do agree about our electrical energy being converted to the type of energy that we all "swim" in -- maybe molecular attraction?
Your last point is exactly what I'm getting at. Yes, telepathic ability -- or reading the card while in the astral -- is purely the result of our brain's ability. Did you know that if you stick a florescent lightbulb in the ground underneath a heavy-duty power line, the bulb will light up? No wires, just "free" or "leaking" electricity. I certainly believe we have the power to manipulate the energy around us -- spells, ritual, these can work. But it's not some grand, outside, supremacy allowing these things to work. It's our own natural laws and our ability to apply them. I think we will be capable of some really wonderful things one day, if we don't kill ourselves off first! :( But, like I've said before, all of this theory is just that, my theories so far. They are subject to change. :?
This is a very interesting subject which had never really entered my thoughts.
Though I would not want to believe it is possible for some people to be souless, it is a possibility I suppose. But more importantly, I think that what concepts we have of "soul(s)" should be defined before sorting out opinion and reason, to clarify.
What makes up a soul rather than a full string of evolved consciousness? These are my beliefs:
That not all humans have souls. (most do)
Those that do not are simply there for several reasons. Many people say that they have seen and been physically protected by some "other power" (guardian angels). Well it takes ENORMOUS energy to manifest in the physical. (Try moving something in the physical, ACTUALLY MOVING IT,) therefore these shells exist so that the higher beings can temporarily "control" the shell to help save someone.
Another assumption I have is that the more souls there are, the more chaotic the world gets, therefore they are necessary to help maintain it without the world completely deteriorating. (ie emotional and self-benefiting involvement.)
We are like video game characters, we know something bigger is moving our bodies. (Us=our soul, which we should )refer to rather than referring to us as our shell... which is defiantly NOT all we are. I suppose you can consider the "empties" as NPC (non-playable characters). Our characters die, but eventually we all return to the true us... they are simply there to help run our world.
Anyway, the original question I suppose deals with whether or not they don't exist. Well, those who say nay, I can see the logic, They could be beginning strands of consciousness, with no advanced skills, such as obe. Or they could be people whose emotional side has been so stricken that it had to go through a few lives before it could actually be used again. (Holocaust victims???)
Either way, I hope I wasn't tooooo confusing... my mind is very scattered... heh. However, obviously if you find yourself here and pondering in deep thought you probably (99.99%) have a soul... (well I shouldn't say you have a soul, as you ARE the soul, but whatever.)
If not all people have souls then not all people should be able to astral project, correct?
Following this logic, not all people can AP. But since it has been established that we CAN all AP(or has it? im basically assuming, correct me if im wrong.) then it follows that we all have souls.
Quote from: Ben KIf not all people have souls then not all people should be able to astral project, correct?
Following this logic, not all people can AP. But since it has been established that we CAN all AP(or has it? im basically assuming, correct me if im wrong.) then it follows that we all have souls.
I see your point, but I don't consider the Astral Body to be the soul. I have always thought of the soul as th Causal Body. Someone with no soul may still have some of the other bodies like Astral, Lower Mental and even Etheric body in my opinion. Or maybe just their etheric body, or just their astral.
However I believe everyone does have a soul.
It is irrational to recognize for a being their own soul.
It is like a camera becomes self aware and recognize itself.
I suppose souls are just logical models we working with.
We are able to weight the bodies after death
and notice a lost weight.
But we can.t notice which substance is lifted..
Quote from: aleshahIt is irrational to recognize for a being their own soul.
It is like a camera becomes self aware and recognize itself.
I suppose souls are just logical models we working with.
We are able to weight the bodies after death
and notice a lost weight.
But we can.t notice which substance is lifted..
I doubt our souls/consciousness weigh anything. That would imply that a part of our souls are physical, which is obviously contradictory. More than likely what has left is our etheric body, which you can read about in Bruces ebook.
Aleshah and Ben, you are moving in my direction - be careful... :lol:
I did some reading on the "weighing the soul" experiments. That was done many years back, I want to say in the early '40's but stand to be corrected. The problem was, they didn't have equipment capable of accurately recording such small weight changes and thus, the figures are questionable. That experiment has not bee repeated so far as I know. I wish someone would do that type of research again today -- we have the equipment now to really know for sure.
My point is, and it's a theory only right now, that our souls are only physical. Even if that is true there would not necessarily be a weight difference when it leaves the body. How much does electricity weigh?
greatoutdoors
QuoteYour last point is exactly what I'm getting at. Yes, telepathic ability -- or reading the card while in the astral -- is purely the result of our brain's ability. Did you know that if you stick a florescent lightbulb in the ground underneath a heavy-duty power line, the bulb will light up? No wires, just "free" or "leaking" electricity.
I agree there is moving electricity in the ground, especially around power plants. That does not explain how telepathy could work between people separated by more than 1 mile.
QuoteHow much does electricity weigh?
An electron weighs 9.11 * 10^-28 grams, about 1800 times less than a proton or neutron.
Electrons are probably about 1/2500 the total weight of most objects.
Hello Beavis. I didn't read all four pages of posts, because I assumed they were all arguing, too. Maybe I was wrong. Either way, I liked your question.
I've never even considered that maybe some people didn't have a soul. I suppose in that scenario they would just be tools for karma, like a chair, car or lottery ticket.
Well, there wouldn't be any way to prove *against* the idea of some people being soul-less, unless you somehow checked every person that's ever, or ever will exist. Heh. But if you found just one soul-less person, that would be proof in the other direction.
As I said, I didn't read all the other posts, but what got you on this train of thought?
I personally don't see a good reason why some people wouldn't, but it's certainly not an idea to just dismiss outright. I'll keep it in the little filing cabinet in my head, and see if anything comes of it.
I noticed, especially on the first page, that if you think about it logically then there is no way to know the answer. I dont understand how you use logic at all when talking about anything spiritual. I guess its a way to try to look at it, but I dont think it works.
When dealing with these subjects, there is always almost no clear answers and really no pattern or logic to the way these things work. So I guess what you could do is use your gut. You can feel your soul, you know if there is an emptyness in your life, you can tell when sombody is sad. So just listen to that feeling. I think if someone dosnt have a soul(I personally think we all do), youll feel it. Or maybe just to take it one step further, maybe you cant even see, or dont notice people without souls. I dont think that fits though. Its all very unsure, shady, and illogical.
The question is not 'does everyone have a soul', but 'does anyone exist independent of your own consciousness'. My reasoning behind this is that the physical manifestation of a being is no different from an astral manifestation i.e. both are internal constructs. For one to have seeming sentiency or even exist in the 'physical' implies they are conscious and have a 'soul'. Soul is just a construct which is not needed.
I believe every living thing, be it human, animal, plant etc has a soul but that is my personal opinion and is central to my spritual beliefs.
Gem
Quote from: Wronski FeintI noticed, especially on the first page, that if you think about it logically then there is no way to know the answer. I dont understand how you use logic at all when talking about anything spiritual. I guess its a way to try to look at it, but I dont think it works.
When dealing with these subjects, there is always almost no clear answers and really no pattern or logic to the way these things work. So I guess what you could do is use your gut. You can feel your soul, you know if there is an emptyness in your life, you can tell when sombody is sad. So just listen to that feeling. I think if someone dosnt have a soul(I personally think we all do), youll feel it. Or maybe just to take it one step further, maybe you cant even see, or dont notice people without souls. I dont think that fits though. Its all very unsure, shady, and illogical.
I think that depends on what you mean by logic
If you are talking Equations and calculations then you need to concider what you are the calculations and equations are refering to.
Most Logic is What we can precive by means of matter which in its turn in bounded energy. So if example you would talk about this with a metahpysisist like RB you would probable get some like a logical answer or why not ask frank i know he is good at using logic in a great way or way (Don't know what to refer it as if not logic )