Most would like to believe that nobody here is a liar, but the fact is that some do lie on this website. I remember a thread admitting many lies from the thread creator.
I have never intentionally lied on this website. If you believe that is up to you.
How much do you trust what people post here?
I lie all the time.
Yours,
Frank
LOL Frank, sly!!
Usually can go some way to telling if someone is being honest by what they say, how they say it, and how they react to replies. Oh, and their history. And intuition.
But mostly I trust people here. I dont really see what can be gained by BSing, an ego-boost? Quite a peculiar thing to do, and IMO rare.
Rob
You couldn't fool me, Frank!
Beavis, I suspect that there are very few liars here, if not zero. The thread you're talking about happened almost a year ago, and it was one person who said that he was feeling sorry for himself for not being able to OBE.
So this...
Quotebut the fact is that some do lie on this website
...is wrong, unless you find someone else to make the total more than one. [
Edit: You can't include Frank, he's not lying as much as he's being a sophist.]
This forum is flooded with newcomers asking the same newcomer questions over and over. On top of that, barely anyone shares noteworthy experiences anymore. So, there's no longer any reason to feel sorry for one's self, and no reason to be jealous of others. If there are no reasons for those, then there are no reasons to lie.
Except for amusement. But I doubt anyone would find it amusing after 1 or 2 posts. Not that I know from experience, or anything... ;)
I also notice that it's rare for anyone here to post any truly incredible experiences. If people are lying, they are coming up with some pretty dull lies. :)
I'd like to hear about more experiences though, even if they are dull.
People are always saying they are experienced from years of obes, and after reading someone else's post, they say how something like that happened to them too. Why don't they write what happened to them at the time they experienced it?
I'd say interesting obes are going on all the time, but people are keeping the experiences to themselves. I remember when Major Tom wrote how he saw his physical body was following him around. Amazing stuff. But experiences like that tend to come up more when responding to people's questions instead of a separate great post.
As someone who is actively trying to have his first obe, I can only imagine that if it someday does happen, I'd want everyone to hear what the experience was like, even if it was uneventful. The fact is, as a person yet to experience an obe, I feel I can learn from anything I read about people's experience. It'd be so exciting to have an obe, it feels now that I'd be writing about every one of them I ever had here. It may be of interest at least to those who have never had an obe. I can't get enough of trying to find out "What's it like?", then when I read someone's answer, I try to find other people's answers to that question. I love to read posts about obe experiences.
I've just read what I wrote above, and it sounds a bit like I am complaining :oops: hehehe I meant it just as some side info I hope people will keep in mind... :wink: Lots of people write about their experiences here, I'd just love to read more.
I don't think I've told any lies in this post. :D
Potatis
I've posted many of my experiences, I suppose they just aren't that thought provoking. :P
I had a interesting dream this morning and plan on posting about it..or do dreams not count?
Nay
The most interesting experiences, I think, would not be of much subjective interest to the projector in question. The experiences I'm referring to are the ones that validate AP/OBE as a psychic phenomena.
Guide encounters, philosophical conversations with entities, emotionally traumatic experiences, questionable "synchronicities," seeing weird things and not being sure what you saw... all these pale in comparison to stories where people predict the future, read the minds of others, and observe events from afar. Those are the experiences that force us to recognize that we live in a common reality.
As MajorTom said, we all have interesting experiences that are of interest to ourselves, but rarely do we have one that is of objective significance.
I noly lie when I might gain something from it...
and I don't believe I'd gain anything from doing that here :P
I think what some are seeking is to have someone 'project' to a given location, retrieve the secret playing card, and return to tell the tale? For 'proof'? Those that aren't doing it always want proof. Those that are don't bother with trying to 'prove' it to skeptics, there's no reason to. Once you have the experience, either you embrace it or try to explain it away as something else. Did it ever cross a skeptics mind that in the area of thought=reality, your doubt is what keeps you bound?
And are we limiting to just AP/OBE, or are other aspects up for discussion. I would say the majority of people on this site don't believe in guides/helpers, much less work with them. How about higher Energy work? The Craft? Healing?
Some things aren't discussed because it's not worth the effort. There are alternative places to discuss the more esoteric things.
QuoteI've posted many of my experiences, I suppose they just aren't that thought provoking.
Nay, some of your posts have been the most thought provoking to me. I found your posts on retrievals fascinating to the extent that it is the number one thing I would like to do if I can have an obe. Frank has posted about retrieval work in the past too. I haven't seen any posts recently about retrievals. Is anyone still doing them? Nay, post your dream!
MajorTom, it had crossed my mind that people might be modest and not want to show off. People, in my opinion, shouldn't worry about this... worry that they may appear better than others. By posting, they may actually learn something from someone else, and realise there is much to learn from that experience from others. In other words, maybe they could realise they are not "better" than everyone else, as others have had similar experiences, but they may also learn something from others that they didn't learn immediately from their own experience. I am not being very clear here, let me give an example.
Imagine wildly that I have my first obe today. I write here how exciting it was for me because I found myself "out of body" in my room, and I floated through a wall and couldn't control my movements, or see clearly, but nevertheless it was great. Someone else writes back to explain how I can see more clearly and gain better control. I learn from my "uneventful" run-of-the-mill newbie obe.
That's at the simple level, but those who have more advanced experiences could probably learn something from someone else who's been there, done that. Also, if newbies like me experience that in the future, we will remember the post and would have a better idea of how to react to that circumstance, which may be better than what the original poster did. I have already learned a lot fom those who have gonebefore me and posted their experiences. If I had that experience above, I'd command "Clarity Now!", and try to think myself to where I want to go, instead of walking. That's from reading other people's experiences, I have a head start. I don't have to learn from scratch through a lot of trial and error.
You might think your own experiences are not worth writing about sometimes, but you don't know who it might help sometime in the future. All obes are great!
I'll stop now :D
Potatis
QuoteQuote from: Telos
The most interesting experiences, I think, would not be of much subjective interest to the projector in question. The experiences I'm referring to are the ones that validate AP/OBE as a psychic phenomena.
Quote from: MajorTom
Well, that would of course be your individual value statement, since within your frame of reference they may be considered to be the most "spectacular". It does come however from a position of doubt or measuring them against what constitutes reality for you that makes them seem so very important. As far as myself, I consider those experiences to be the least "spectacular".
As I'm prone to do, I did not express myself clearly. I meant "interesting" in the general context, such that a general person on a general day would find the post to be interesting in a profoundly non-general way (the word "paranormal" comes to mind).
Quote from: MajorTom
Rather it's about transcending (in either the esoteric or non-estorical meaning of the word) the divisions between subjectivity and objectivity.
MajorTom, shouldn't one be able to demonstrate that they've transcended the divisions between subjectivity and objectivity? Would they not want to express their transcendence as such?
Quote from: MajorTom
Neither is recognizing the value of subjective experience always used as an excuse to bypass the difficulties that arise with establishing the "hard proof". It can be an excuse for some who basically believe in anything, but some have genuinely gone past such "objective" considerations in a very valid way.
I suppose I'll never understand the validity of passing objective considerations. Sounds like turning your back on the world, to me.
Edit: Oops..I messed up your response by editing your mail rather than replying to it. Was able to retrieve it though.
MajorTomEdit: No worries ;)
QuoteNay, some of your posts have been the most thought provoking to me. I found your posts on retrievals fascinating to the extent that it is the number one thing I would like to do if I can have an obe. Frank has posted about retrieval work in the past too. I haven't seen any posts recently about retrievals. Is anyone still doing them? Nay, post your dream!
That is the highest compliment I could ever get...thank-you so ever much for that! :D Unfortunately I haven't done a "conscious" retrieval for some time, but I will tell you that, ALOT of my dreams seem to be just that. It seems I learned how to do all this astral stuff before there was a guide line on how to do it. Awwwww..I just thought of Gina..god bless her, her retrievals brought me to tears.
I do feel that some of my experiences are just sooooooo blah..lol I mean really, do you want to hear about me being a cowboy whom saved a whole town? lol....now THAT was boasting.. :lol:
Seriously though, there are some dreams/projections that I can just not put into words.....honestly, I can't find the words to explain what I went thru, so instead of trying to post about it, I keep it to myself...and believe me, I can tell the difference because of the silly voice in my head saying.."this is for you, take it..." Those are the personal events in my life that take place...and frankly, I'm sorry I love y'all, but those are MINE... :)
Nay
Quote from: MajorTomFor whom would you want to demonstrate?
For some reason, I think that if someone did transcend the divisions of subjective and objective reality, then they would have fun practicing its power, the way a bird likes to fly and the way a mathematician likes logic games.
Anyone could watch and observe, regardless of whether they were open or closed-minded. They would agree on the facts. That is a bird flying. That is a mathematician doing a logic game.
QuoteBy what standard or what measure?
The truth should be as evident as the Earth is round. Those who do not agree that the Earth is round are not considered closed-minded skeptics - they're likely to be considered mentally challenged buffoons.
But, most importantly, by the standard and measure that it moves humanity forward and improves the quality of life.
QuoteIn either case, not planning a deep discussion on the pro's and cons of the scientific method here. Just to say that even so called "objective reality" loses its glamour if no longer considered to be a taken for granted reality.
Well, this thread is about lying, and therefore, about truth.
Recall the proverb (now cliche), "Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime." Now, I could write down a long series of instructions for you on how to fish, and it might make for some entertaining reading. Or, I could show you a nice spot on a river nearby, and give you a visual and auditory demonstration on how to fish, especially when it comes time to reel one in. If ever you questioned this whole fishing thing, thinking, "it's not possible for me to fish... I'm just not made for it," you could look at your methods and compare them to my own, with the certainty that I was doing something right... because you saw me catch a fish!
So, the new age community has a new proverb, I think. "Write a book about fishing, make someone smile. Demonstrate how to fish, make someone happy."
Telos, love ya man, but you are sucking all the fun out of this thread...lol...well, for me at least.
Nay
EDIT: LOL...now I see, you two need to take it outside. I got confused by the TWO threads about lies, perhaps you BOTH should, stop, look, and listen.. :wink:
Quote from: MajorTomIt's an experiment on how to keep several simultaneous topics running in one thread....sort of like a multidimensional anti-gravitional rotation thingie...
Ok I shut up now :)
NO WONDER why my feeble mind couldn't keep up! Dang multidimensional anit-gravitional rotation thingies!!!!!! :twisted:
Y'all continue, it just seemed like too much picking apart for a chat forum, but I'm totally a silly girl...no lie. :wink:
Nay
On the reasons some people don't post thier experiences here: I hate to say it, but based on reactions to people posting experiences of incredible natures, people tend to just tear them apart here using dogma and thier own personal feelings. If this were not the case I have had a few things I would post here in order to get people to want to OBe more. Fictional worlds was one such example (which I didn't want to do for the reason above, I might add), as was the zeta threads (I am not saying I believed what was being said in those threads, but those threads needed better care as people were being a little too bully-ish. The man does think he is legit (I believe at least), and as such a more modest approach is what I feel should have been taken in order to show him how people feel.)
Hahahaha...nuff said MT.
Ahhhhhh Spectral....We've been round and round haven't we? You really want to go there?
You know how I feel about your fictional world thread, I felt it was........well, what THIS thread is about. It read like a story and....
Ok, going to put a disclaimer here..lol.. this is ME talking ONLY me, not the site, not a Moderator, but me...Renee'
You claimed things, that even Mr. Robert Bruce himself couldn't claim. I gave you my story for you to explore and you were so wrong it wasn't funny. Then you turned it around.......that is what got me. I was soooooo willing to try and understand yet, no that wasn't enough.
I think you are a great guy, if you could just get past the "feeling important" part. I know and have felt the kind of pain you been through, but that doesn't excuse trying to give people a false hope. Eh, that isn't the right wording..... it's more like dangling a carrot infront of someone whom is never going to get the carrot........because the carrot was never there to start with.
Renee"
EDIT: LOL..ok I see you deleted your post MT, but mine still stands..
Quote from: MajorTomI told you Nay, this was an experiment with multiple topics...multidimensional anti-gravitional rotation thingie :)
Post disappear, and then suddenly turn up again elsewhere...
Anyways, SD, the responses you experienced as "negative" were fairly mild in my opinion. That wasn't dogma, but rather those experiences having a far-fetched quality to some.
Those disagreeing opinions are allowed on these forums, and very necessary also IMO.
With all due respect Major Tom, several individuals telling me I am starting a cult is not a simple "disagreement." That was when things really started getting ugly. I won't name any names but it was a bad move on the part of the individual who did that, and for that reason the thread was deleted even though it was agreed it would stay. I have more to say on that subject but seeing as how my opinion on this will simply get deleted I will stop there.
Nay, I am not seeing how you can claim I was totally off. I got more than a few things right as some people can attest to. I don't remember the details. I respect your opinion however.
(How do you call someone who you believe is lying a great guy?)
As I said previously: don't bash it till you try it. I HAVE heard back from people who have done what I said I have done. Remember, the goal was to get people more willing to train so they can do amazing things. And I do say again, I originally did NOT want to do that topic. I was pushed into it.
Oh, and I might note that Mr. Bruce HAS claimed to explore fictional worlds. Just read about it in his book, though those are only thought forms it shows how anything is possible in the astral.
Please read the following on this:
Quote from: cubeG'day!
1. People are free to believe whatever they want to believe. Lots of people today believe they are channelling in some way or other communications from angels and archangles, etc. But, personally, I do not think these people are actually in contact with these exalted beings. I suggest that they may instead be in contact with spirits claiming to be these beings. RB.
2. Exploring fictional worlds through OBE is quite possible. This is much like what I called 'Virtual Reality Projection' in Astral Dynamics. If someone put a lot of time and effort into creating a virtual world, or a fictional world in a book, then it would be possible to enter this and explore, etc. And this would provide some contact with the mind and imagination that created it, making it possible to explore other possibilities of same. RB.
1.) What's your opinion of the Mediating an Archangel thread?
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10843&highlight=
2.) There used to be a thread on Astral Pulse by Spectral Dragon called "Exploring Fictional Worlds". The idea was that people's pooled thoughts create new areas in the astral and we can project to those new worlds and see what people are thinking.
For instance, in the thread one poster projected into the thought form world created by another poster's novel that he was writing. He was able to report on things that the novel author was thinking about but had not yet written.
As SD describes it, "Those worlds are there regardless of other individuals ideas. What happens is an individual goes through a gate room conected to those other universes. IOW I have explored universes that are not in any book."
What's your opinion on that?
It would seem that robert is in agreement. I rest my case on that.
anyway, if you wish to call me a liar, fine. But if you wish to tell me I am starting a cult then we are going to have a problem. I stated my case, and in the past I have had "listening problems," and as such this is all I will say in the matter unless as stated I get blamed for starting a cult. (And this time I mean it.)
Also, this "I see you deleted your post" has me wondering if this is going to flare another argument. If so another good reason to simply drop this right here. The way that reaction seems makes it seem overly negative.
Starting a cult is nothing. How about being called Jim Jones of Guyanna fame? And for saying we have the ability within ourselves to decide to get well or stay sick.
And of course, what others think of you matters how?
Many people here are very gullible. They don't lie, they just really believe what they say without questioning their beliefs.
There are (if at all) very few liars here.
> How much do you trust what people post here?
Not much.
Quote from: TelosGuide encounters, philosophical conversations with entities, emotionally traumatic experiences, questionable "synchronicities," seeing weird things and not being sure what you saw... all these pale in comparison to stories where people predict the future, read the minds of others, and observe events from afar. Those are the experiences that force us to recognize that we live in a common reality.
As MajorTom said, we all have interesting experiences that are of interest to ourselves, but rarely do we have one that is of objective significance.
Quote from: MajorTomRather it's about transcending (in either the esoteric or non-esoterical meaning of the word) the divisions between subjectivity and objectivity.
For some reason, I think that if someone did transcend the divisions of subjective and objective reality, then they would have fun practicing its power, the way a bird likes to fly and the way a mathematician likes logic games.
Quote from: TelosAnyone could watch and observe, regardless of whether they were open or closed-minded. They would agree on the facts. That is a bird flying.
But, most importantly, by the standard and measure that it moves humanity forward and improves the quality of life.
Hmm, trying to avoid the 'beginner questions' :) lol, this is fantasy, and fantasy is offering us satisfaction and knowledge so far we are capable (willing :?: ) to understand it's underlying structure and reasons. Like, when one studies literature, for instance, he can read texts, find out what others have said before, come, maybe, with some new ideas, write even books, maybe... but which is the reason we are having literature? Where does the pleasure we get out of it and also its morality come from? Is this maybe a kind of inertia we indulge in, because some write books, have their fantasy projections, books are well read, but in short time they step off the market and that's all. But those who are remaining on the market :wink: have seen the birds flying where others have seen only literature. Does it make any sense?
Psychologically speaking (as Carl Jung for instance put it), the more we confront with our selves and go deep towards our unconscious (which means subjective experience and individuation), the more our perception shifts towards collective patters (which are archetypes and are collective, so objective). We develop then a kind of collective awareness, though we become very much in touch and in control of what can be called our most personal destiny.
About AP and OBE, I've never deliberately tried to have some (I'm new here, as you may see), but still, there is something...
Generally, I would rather try to get thoughtless awareness, so going beyond fantasy, not by suppressing them, but getting to the core generating them, which is beyond form. The self is beyond form. There are also different dimensions, the encounter to which would be rather tricky. But... Yea, I feel this is also related to that profound inner voice, which is the guide... Generally I used to relate mind projection to indulging into attachments, which is not exactly the spiritual path... :wink: . And I did have some experiences, but they were not enlightening, rather unimportant, one still scary, made me decide to wake up...
I had still this experience last summer, being in an art camp organized by some yogis, that is is sort of a duty to change the perspective I had upon my body and upon my freedom to move. It is 'freedom', but I wouldn't call the process to achieve it 'getting free' (neither escapism not conflict with the body seemed to me to be the name of the game, rather modifying my perception/attention of my own body and being and through this the form of my action abilities.) I don't know if it makes any sense or if I am not off topic...
I mean, my previous experiences, which I relate to ridiculous attachments, were that I wanted to be in a particular remote place, because I wanted to be at a particular event I liked so much (a carnival, to be frank :D :D :D ) or I was missing friends. So I wanted to get out of my body and travel there. Luckily it did not last long.
This summer on the contrary, distance seemed to be only the trigger to make my expand my capacities to grasp a particular understanding or to experience much subtle forms of love. ( :) In the latter case, distance seemed to be not physical, but a very spontaneously occurred and accepted relation form: like experiencing much more love in a pure and unconditioned sibling relation as I would have wished for or imagined even in a husband-wife relation. Distance and travel can have various significances :wink: .)
It was as if I have to be in a situation in which I am forced to make my mind not only perceive more then it would have been comfortable lol, but also to get more subtle, so that physical barriers should not stand between my being and what I have to do and be. I'm still not using it as I should, maybe, (or it's also a matter of timing?).
I feel it's good to share such subtle experiences if one feels they have brought a higher perspective in life. When these experiences shift our attention towards reality (the subtle reality) they create links of joy and understanding of the collective, abstract forms.
Ana-Maria
Hey Rastus:
"And of course, what others think of you matters how?"
I've thought about this. From a simple physical perspective, naa, who gives a shish kebab?? Indeed.
BUT surely there are more mystical influences? By going around annoying people you will be the reciever of their annoyance and negative energy. Might even come to influence how subconscious issues continue to arise - perhaps its not just because they are not settled internally, but also not settled externally, and so the metaphysical knives, bit rusty perhaps, but still there even after yeeeeaaaars.
I would say it also matters because if someone bears you bad feelings, then chances are you haven't acted in a way that corresponds to your highest principles, which isn't a good thing. You know what they say - takes two to tangle.......
thoughts?
Rob
Is Nay a Virgo?
Iguma:
I've had this discussion before about AstralPulse. There is great energy here. It's just not directed anywhere in particular. That means there's less to unlearn from 3D paradigms. There are a number of people here representing various 'groups', conciously and otherwise, that put information out for people to reasonate with or not.
Some people choose a path that demands combat. They want to fight. You can find a 1000 posts that bear this out. That is the path they choose, and it manifests for them. The law of attraction, if want something to fight, it will show up to fight you.
If you refuse to interact with their reality, then there is no fight. Besides, the Rule of 3 makes this so dicey anyway. And who responds with a knife? Love is so much easier to use, and has permanent effects. When you realise what you truly are, there is a paradigm shift with reacting metaphysically.
And yes, I have ticked off people. That was then, this is now. I've learned and let go. They can as well or stay stuck in the past. Some people have gone through profound changes since they came here, and others haven't changed at all. That is their choice.
Quote from: enderIs Nay a Virgo?
Gee, you could ask me directly instead of acting like I'm not in the room.. and no I'm not.
Nay :)
QuoteYou know how I feel about your fictional world thread, I felt it was........well, what THIS thread is about. It read like a story and....
This is definitely a dead horse, but to be fair, SpectralDragon did provide me with some tantalizing stuff the first time he checked out my fictional world. Before that, I said it myself that the whole thread read like fan fiction. And after that, the second attempt was completely off. It's too bad it ended there, and it doesn't really matter because he has his own forum now anyway.
But the point is, can't we all get along?
And more to topic, what is worse? Lying (or self-delusion) or gullibility? People need to be more responsible for their own critical thinking skills.
There will always be liars. That doesn't mean there always has to be people believing them.
You are right this is a dead horse, thus why I didn't respond to Jason's post, because it has been said over and over.. he sees it with his filters I see it with mine.
And he has a way of proving his points by saying..Cube said this, Mac said this.. He uses his friends to prove himself. Isn't that a conflict of interest?
I totally disagree that he got any thing right with my story, but me saying that without having friends to pull out of my pocket weakens my argument, according to Jason.
Now I sound like I'm talking about him like he isn't in the room!..LOL..sorry, don't mean to. I'm sure y'all have had a conversation about this topic, perhaps more than one, so I know he will be reading this.
I will answer Jason directly when he said something to the effect of, how can you call me a great guy and a liar at the same time? Very simple, because I can.
My step-sister is a pathological liar and I still love her, infact I'm the only one in the family that helps her when she needs help. Her own father has had enough of her lies and fantasies..they have caused much problems over the last 30yrs. They don't call or go see her at all, and haven't in many years.
Maybe that is why this touches and bothers me so much, because it reminds me so much of her lies and manipulations that I've dealt with over the years. It is so similar that I can't help but react. I know that is the wrong thing to do, but hey...I'm not perfect in any sense of the word, infact you would be hard pressed to get me to say more positive things about myself than negative.
I think what bothers me the most is when Jason, you told me that YOU got things right, but how in the world can you know that, if it was MY story to start with? You went off on some final fantasy story, when my story was a simple smut/romance/dream story? Oh..wait, you did go on to explain that.. You said it was the characters thoughts that you were tuning into not my thoughts.. which just sounds like a bunch of nonsense to ME.
I mean, that is clever don't you think? You will always be right, because you can always say when you are told that you are wrong by the actual living people that wrote the stories, that you were dealing with the characters thoughts...made up characters by real people. I DO believe that everything that has been thought, is out there floating around, but it needs the thoughts of the original thinker to continue. If it becomes an individual thinker, then it is a entity at that point, and I do not think I have the power to create a life....I suppose you could have found my thoughts (but that is a looong stretch), and then continued playing out YOUR thoughts, but I don't believe my characters are out there living some life out..no..
I hope I'm getting my point across without offending you, but lets face it, you do get defensive quite easy, even when I'm not trying to tick you off but telling you why I feel you are not being truthful... perhaps I should stop saying you are not being truthful, but living in a fantasy world that you've created for yourself. But when you try to convince others that it is real, well..that makes me uncomfortable..
Anyway...just felt the need to get that out. Thanks.
Nay
Quote from: NayAnd he has a way of proving his points by saying..Cube said this, Mac said this.. He uses his friends to prove himself. Isn't that a conflict of interest?
Nay
*sigh*
"All evil is created from a misunderstanding between two or more individuals."
They came of thier own accord, I told and chatted with no one about this except ender. I do not use friends to hide behind (unlike you, Nay, when you pull all your moderator friends to you in your defense. I am not saying that to be mean, it's simply what you did.) Mac and Cube are stating thier own personal opinions. Matter of fact, mactombs here is making points against both sides ;)
It wasn't cube's opinion I was after in the post above, it was ROBERTS. You had said robert doesn't believe in fictional worlds. Well that's from the horses mouth so to speak. You know how he edits posts in the Question and Answers forum. Remember: my original point was to show robert has explored fictional worlds. It's not impossible, you only make it impossible by limiting yourself with this "I can't do this" thinking.
Speaking of fantasy worlds, I am not the one who is accusing people of things of what you, in fact, are worse for. I have a right to defend myself, just as you do and have done quiet often in the past.
The facts I got right were for one the object. You stated yourself you were thinking of using the object. Your words, not mine. I can't remember the details but it doesn't matter anyway.
QuoteI will answer Jason directly when he said something to the effect of, how can you call me a great guy and a liar at the same time? Very simple, because I can.
And make yourself foolish for not explaining yourself.
QuoteI mean, that is clever don't you think? You will always be right, because you can always say when you are told that you are wrong by the actual living people that wrote the stories, that you were dealing with the characters thoughts...made up characters by real people.
How can you say I claim to always be right when I openly admitted I was wrong in the second part of mactombs viewing? I understand you guys have a low opinion of me but god when you get so many facts wrong how can't you?
You think think these characters aren't real people: that's fine. Saying I am using that as an excuse and calling me a cult leader because of it is not. If you want a friendly debate over the finer points of what I believe to be true, that's fine. If you want to flame me over them, that's not.
Nay, I am not your sister, get over it. Really, I am not. If you continue to think I am then in your eyes I will be a liar no matter what. Look at the facts: I gave them to you above and you can double check some of them since apparently I am so much of a liar.
Another thing: apparently you think I get so worked up about this: I am quite calm, thank you. Don't use your empathy on me and claim to know what I am feeling here: it failed miserably in the past: it won't work now.
To sum this up:Your opinion is fine and dandy nay: I don't mind if you think I am full of excrement, but please don't cause me trouble because of it. That's all I am really getting upset about here.
MT: calling someone a cult leader is, according to your very own policy you guys so love to point out, flaming. It's as bad as calling you several swear words and other nasty comments: it's meant to himilaite and make the character seem nasty. By definition, that's flaming. Feelings were hurt over it, and that's an understatement. I am not a cult leader: I do not burn people at the stake and I do not intentionally cause friction between groups of people.
Quote from: Forum Acceptable Use PolicyWhat can't you post?
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this forum. Use descriptive subject lines & research your post.
Is calling someone a cult leader all of the above? Well, considering what is associated with the word, yes.
Mactombs:
Quotee to topic, what is worse? Lying (or self-delusion) or gullibility? People need to be more responsible for their own critical thinking skills.
If you remember correctly I openly said "don't believe this till you do it yourself." There is a difference between critical thinking and downright flaming.
This was supposed to end at my last post. You guys decided to continue it. If you guys want to keep continueing it fine, we can dance. If not, well that would be better in my opinion. Enough feelings were hurt over this.
LOL..you just did exactly what I thought you would do. You can say you are calm all you want, but that is not how it reads.
Quoteunlike you, Nay, when you pull all your moderator friends to you in your defense. I am not saying that to be mean, it's simply what you did.)
I did NO such thing, I never once asked anyone to speak for me and you may ask anyone of the other Mods, the fact that they commented was on their own accord, not because I used them.
I said that you claim to do stuff that Robert himself doesn't do, whatever that may be. I mean, from the way you speak, you should be the one writing the books and teaching us how we can so easily acheive these things.
When you talk about the object, are you talking about the Gem or something? I can't remember, but I know I didn't say I was thinking bout using it, it wasn't even in my mind..
QuoteAnd make yourself foolish for not explaining yourself.
LOL..I DID explain myself in the next paragraph, about my sister and of course I know you aren't her, I was trying to understand my behavior and why you always seemed to touch me in a negative way. Do you understand what I mean now? I wasn't dogging you in any way..once again you have some kind of filter on and you are seeing what you want to see, and that is me being mean to you and hating you. Well you get over that, because I don't hate you nor am I trying to be mean.. I'm actually trying to understand MY BEHAVIOR!
QuoteYou think think these characters aren't real people: that's fine. Saying I am using that as an excuse and calling me a cult leader because of it is not.
I never called you a cult leader, some one else did that, not me. They used those words in their post, it was never, ever, written by me.
I would love to try what you have claimed, but it won't be the same for me, because it is YOUR reality not mine... thus why you can't go around telling people they will experience this, because they won't. That is what I was trying to convey with the dangling of the carrot, that really never was there.
I really am trying to straighten this all out, but you just keep getting all defensive....I know, you don't see it, but you are. So, ok..no more dancing.
*sigh*.....Nay
Quote from: NayI DO believe that everything that has been thought, is out there floating around, but it needs the thoughts of the original thinker to continue. If it becomes an individual thinker, then it is a entity at that point, and I do not think I have the power to create a life....I suppose you could have found my thoughts (but that is a looong stretch), and then continued playing out YOUR thoughts, but I don't believe my characters are out there living some life out..no..
...the power to create a life? At least not at the level most of us are perceiving reality. But there are entities already hovering around, and they may interfere with these remaining thoughts, taking the identity of that character. And then we might think it's something we made up, but it's kind of a double way control. :?: Anyway this does not imply freedom to create, it's not like being master of one's own dreams... :)
But there is a possibility of creating reality (far fetched, maybe, but as I understood this, I exists). And it is related to our mind being brought back to the perception of it's own source, to that spontaneous existence-consciousness.
The only example I remember now it that of the sage Wishvamitra, an Indian legendary saint, which also appears in "Ramayana". He has reached so deep in his meditation that he acquired this power of creating universes. He was gaining boons though penance and meditation, then he was using these boons for his evolution. But at one point he gets angry (out of too much meditation practice and penance, probably, and starts creating another universe, wanting to replace the old one, which was not satisfying his desires. Of course, the conflict has been solved. (Now, I suppose he hadn't got to that level of spontaneousness, he was gaining power, but it was still an outside source, as he was not entirely satisfied with it.)
Yesterday I was looking for something on the net and I fond this comment: That in the battle between Rama and Ravana (I don't if you know this story of "Ramayana", anyway, Rama is the positive hero, considered by some a divine person, and Ravana is the demon), Wishvamitra could have, of course, have intervened, because he even had this power of creating universes, so obviously he could have killed a demon. Ravana was also disturbed him, too. But his duty was not to interfere. So he was providing help though his meditation and wisdom, but let Rama fight the demon. I'm not very sure I have understood this... :?:
About remaining thoughts, they can be... let's say neutralized or retired back into the source consciousness, which, form the perspective most of us have now, can be perceived as thoughtless awareness. Does it make sense? And the power though which this can be done is forgiveness. Not like letting go or tolerance, but forgiveness as kind of a basic 'magical' force, able to change universes/dimensions. This would be a form of recreating worlds. What I mean is: person A has a fight with person B and the tension is still lingering. Person C hears about this and, if C has this power of forgiving, he/she forgives what A or B has done to the other, and this work on the two and dissolve the conflict.
It happened to me, it worked by just telling to someone about some issues :) I had for a while. I suppose this is also named 'to know how to listen'. I didn't know how it work, a assume it's also a way of interfering in other people's remaining thoughts and turning then to reality. Because reality bears no conflicts :) .
Has anyone have a similar experience?
About... non real experiences lol!
It happened to me to communicate or receive information, let's say from a guide, or from a self realized person. Sometimes this information is true (I mean it reflects reality, anyway the expressions of realized persons are always true), sometimes it is are misleading. And this switch point, though which this basically true information comes as such or is being distorted, is somewhere in my mind. So what would by the reason I sometimes accept it as such and sometimes I switch it all around? Because I do believe that we basically have the absolute freedom of perceiving reality and truth, nothing form outside really has the power to impose something on us (this is also an experience I had), rather the reason why we are not taking advantage if this ability we have resides somewhere on the level where we are taking our decisions.
So why am I turning this beautiful truth into lies? Is there a particular reason I cannot bear it? Or... Any suggestions?
Ana
QuoteAs I said, I have the right to defend myself.
No argument there.
Can we now finally all start singing Kumbaya? :)
Edit:oh ****. I did it again. I messed up your post SD using edit instead of reply. Seriously. Got a copy somewhere?
MajorTom
(no problem MT, the back button is your friend. I hit it till I came to the post reply page and my text was all there :))
Quote from: NayLOL..you just did exactly what I thought you would do. You can say you are calm all you want, but that is not how it reads.
Quoteunlike you, Nay, when you pull all your moderator friends to you in your defense. I am not saying that to be mean, it's simply what you did.)
I did NO such thing, I never once asked anyone to speak for me and you may ask anyone of the other Mods, the fact that they commented was on their own accord, not because I used them.
I said that you claim to do stuff that Robert himself doesn't do, whatever that may be. I mean, from the way you speak, you should be the one writing the books and teaching us how we can so easily acheive these things.
When you talk about the object, are you talking about the Gem or something? I can't remember, but I know I didn't say I was thinking bout using it, it wasn't even in my mind..
QuoteAnd make yourself foolish for not explaining yourself.
LOL..I DID explain myself in the next paragraph, about my sister and of course I know you aren't her, I was trying to understand my behavior and why you always seemed to touch me in a negative way. Do you understand what I mean now? I wasn't dogging you in any way..once again you have some kind of filter on and you are seeing what you want to see, and that is me being mean to you and hating you. Well you get over that, because I don't hate you nor am I trying to be mean.. I'm actually trying to understand MY BEHAVIOR!
QuoteYou think think these characters aren't real people: that's fine. Saying I am using that as an excuse and calling me a cult leader because of it is not.
I never called you a cult leader, some one else did that, not me. They used those words in their post, it was never, ever, written by me.
I would love to try what you have claimed, but it won't be the same for me, because it is YOUR reality not mine... thus why you can't go around telling people they will experience this, because they won't. That is what I was trying to convey with the dangling of the carrot, that really never was there.
I really am trying to straighten this all out, but you just keep getting all defensive....I know, you don't see it, but you are. So, ok..no more dancing.
*sigh*.....Nay
To be fair, Nay, I see where you are coming from here. The original intent of the post was to state an opinion on how some of the more drastic seeming of the experiences are taken and handled here. There is not much that can be done about it: gargantuan sites like this will have some people who simply can't help but flame members for something that they can't believe. We all apoligized long ago for the things said and done regarding both the Fictional worlds thread and micheal thread, so I will leave the horse dead and simply go into friendly debate mode about this point:
QuoteI would love to try what you have claimed, but it won't be the same for me, because it is YOUR reality not mine... thus why you can't go around telling people they will experience this, because they won't. That is what I was trying to convey with the dangling of the carrot, that really never was there.
Now, you are saying maybe I should write the books and such...well, 7 (going on 8 now actually) years of experience never beats 30 I can assure you. As I said, Robert HAS explored fictional worlds before as stated in the quote above. He comes right out and says it's possible. While I am writing a book on demons (not to replace roberts PPSD book I assure you: matter of fact it should go hand in hand with it.) I am nowhere near the level of experience robert is in the matter of astral projection. Sure, me and him might have a slight difference of opinion on some of the smaller details: that's to be expected.
While it is true that the experience is different for all people, I do not agree I am "dangling the carrot" as you say. I have, in fact, talked to people who were inspired by the thread and came back to me to tell me how they explored the fictional worlds of Marvel Comics, Dragon Ball Z, Breath of Fire, and many more besides. Everyone is unique, but at the same time it is possible for everyone to accomplish projection, and likewise it is possible for each individual to have the "same" experience, although in a different viewpoint.
MT: I came merrily to state my opinion. The posts after I did state my opinion are what caused this thread to inflame to what it now is. (Including my own later posts I might add: it takes 2 or more to argue.) So long as I am not called a cult leader again or something similair in nature no, i will not post anything that is more than an opinion or experience. As I said, I have the right to defend myself.
I seem to have missed the big thread on fictional worlds, but really, I don't understand how it wouldn't be possible. It's all a part of collective consciousness, right? All of those thought-forms must exist on some level, somewhere.
Also, doesn't everything in the physical world have counterparts in "higher" dimensions? It seems natural to me that a fictional world experienced on higher levels would become dynamic enough that a real-time interaction would be possible.
Was the debate about weather these worlds exist? Or was it about the believability of one person accurately experiencing another persons individual fantasy world?
If we're talking about individual, personal fantasy worlds, I don't think it's likely that someone else could experience it exactly like how it was originally intended. We each have our own particular ways of experiencing and perceiving things.
If however, it's been written down or recorded in some manner, that would be different, because that's something you can look at more objectively.
If it's something that is part of popular culture, such a world must exist somewhere, and I'd assume you'd be able to experience it on a pretty objective level.
I've been a big fan of video games for about 2 decades now, and I would LOVE to enter some of the worlds expressed within them. Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, Resident Evil, even Super Mario. I fantasize about that kind of stuff. Once I'm able to leave my body at will, entering worlds such as those is one of the first things I'd like to investigate.
(http://rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif)
kkkckckckckcoockkk....ooOOooohhohuuuuugggggggg.........OOOoooOooAAAaagghghgque.....
oh dear, that got it - better out than in eh!!!
Anyway, sorry about that!!! Our friendly neighbourhood dead horse society is beginning to stink as much as the festering animal they are so intent upon beating. And the rest of us are getting hit by the splatter so!!
I would like to suggest that all those with a fascination in old rancid equines might continue their conversation in private.
PLEASE?????
(http://joanongovernment.homestead.com/files/beat_deadhorse.gif)
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Where ever did you find those???
And I thought we came to a good finish...but I like your finish better..lol..too funny..
Nay
Lol oh yes my apologies, you do some to have come to something of a halt already. I was at best skim reading the last few posts of the "debate" so meh, must've missed! Oh well it was fun posting anyway :D
Weeeeeell those horses are rare, and expensive - gotta get em fast before the french eat em up!!!! (yum hehehe)
Actually I just googled for em :)
Rob
PS Rastus - interesting reply - I do hope you weren't thinking my post was aimed at you in any personal way were you??? Wasn't!! Just thought it was an interesting area for discussion. Yeah, I've annoyed people too, here and elsewhere, though I dont regret all those instances. They all taught me something goooood.
Not at all. I try not to pass up an opportunity to pass along a little wisdom here and there. It's the readers and lurkers I'm usually writing to anyway, not the Respondee :P
{Insert Dead Horse GIF Here}
Quote from: Inguma(http://rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif)
kkkckckckckcoockkk....ooOOooohhohuuuuugggggggg.........OOOoooOooAAAaagghghgque.....
oh dear, that got it - better out than in eh!!!
Anyway, sorry about that!!! Our friendly neighbourhood dead horse society is beginning to stink as much as the festering animal they are so intent upon beating. And the rest of us are getting hit by the splatter so!!
I would like to suggest that all those with a fascination in old rancid equines might continue their conversation in private.
PLEASE?????
(http://joanongovernment.homestead.com/files/beat_deadhorse.gif)
If it's dead for you, why don't you divert your attention elsewhere?
I was never involved in the conversation, so, excuse me for just being a little curious.
Quote from: NosticQuote from: Inguma(http://rockclimbing.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_deadhorse.gif)
kkkckckckckcoockkk....ooOOooohhohuuuuugggggggg.........OOOoooOooAAAaagghghgque.....
oh dear, that got it - better out than in eh!!!
Anyway, sorry about that!!! Our friendly neighbourhood dead horse society is beginning to stink as much as the festering animal they are so intent upon beating. And the rest of us are getting hit by the splatter so!!
I would like to suggest that all those with a fascination in old rancid equines might continue their conversation in private.
PLEASE?????
(http://joanongovernment.homestead.com/files/beat_deadhorse.gif)
If it's dead for you, why don't you divert your attention elsewhere?
I was never involved in the conversation, so, excuse me for just being a little curious.
He was talking to me.
Exploring fictional worlds... isn't that kind of like... exploring lies?
Quote from: TelosExploring fictional worlds... isn't that kind of like... exploring lies?
How so?
Quote from: SpectralDragonHow so?
Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?
Quote from: TelosQuote from: SpectralDragonHow so?
Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?
But a lie involves deceit. Using the phrase "fictional world" is just a human way of saying something. To our everyday waking consciousness, it's fiction. It's what we may normally think of as fiction. But it's part of consciousness, and therefore must have some sort of reality.
But even if you do call it a lie, who cares, as long as you can experience and enjoy it, what does it matter. Just like you can call a novel or a movie a lie, and still enjoy it.
Sometime around 1991 - 1993 I inadvertently got involved in exploring fictional worlds.
My partners in this were people with a high level of reliability -- among the ten or so of us, I was one of the least reliable -- one of the two loose cannons.
We didn't stumble into it with the intention of exploring fictional worlds. I was trying to make a career change into fiction writing while I was involved with a group of natural psychics, a percentage of whom were highly skilled witches out of differing traditons. All the individuals involved were actively engaged in astral travel -- except me.
I was astonished -- and a little bit creeped out -- to hear "my" undisclosed novel characters and environment described in out of body experiences by other people. I was not at that time talking about my writing.
When I finally spoke up and opened it up to discussion, I concluded that my "fiction" was a personal translation of something going on astrally. At the time I was deeply engaged in personal issues of truthfulness, so I set aside my novel to explore astral travel with the rest of the group and engaged in overlapping "fictional worlds" -- my idea being that each of us was simply translating a shared experience in different ways.
The whole experience totally creeped me out. The more intentional the experience, and the greater the effort for "truth" the more distortion I saw. It was almost as if the more focus we all gave it, the more our unexpressed unconscious expectations/needs/desires structured the mutal parameters. The more the "group" came into agreement about what was real, the farther I felt we all were from the true experience.
Did I mention that I was a loose cannon?
I found (as the only "experienced" novelist) that if I focused I could "bend" the group experience so that it was closer to my reality set. It wasn't that my reality was any more valid -- it was just better organized because of my sense of poetic license and plot. With that more solid organization, the whole group could retain more details -- but it always seemed to be tainted by the hidden preconceptions.
I HATED the experience and when I realized that I didn't have the capacity to attain mastery and achieve a higher level of truth, I bailed out on the whole thing.
As far as "lies" -- what I saw was a lack of capacity to deal with constantly manupulating the communication stream -- it was nearly impossible for us to find any reliable baseline. I think the problem was geometrically accumulating mistranslations that got completely out of hand.
As long as it's viewed as "fiction" the unconscious mind can extract what's relevant. There's something that happened when we intentionally moved into the "real" category that bent everything completly out of proportion.
I THINK someone with a strong Jungian background could explain this as simple and natural.
Not me.
I'm impressed with Spectral Dragon's capacity to just hang in here against all odds and just "say what he sees"
Regards to all,
Christina
Quote from: ChimeraeSometime around 1991 - 1993 I inadvertently got involved in exploring fictional worlds.
My partners in this were people with a high level of reliability -- among the ten or so of us, I was one of the least reliable -- one of the two loose cannons.
We didn't stumble into it with the intention of exploring fictional worlds. I was trying to make a career change into fiction writing while I was involved with a group of natural psychics, a percentage of whom were highly skilled witches out of differing traditons. All the individuals involved were actively engaged in astral travel -- except me.
I was astonished -- and a little bit creeped out -- to hear "my" undisclosed novel characters and environment described in out of body experiences by other people. I was not at that time talking about my writing.
When I finally spoke up and opened it up to discussion, I concluded that my "fiction" was a personal translation of something going on astrally. At the time I was deeply engaged in personal issues of truthfulness, so I set aside my novel to explore astral travel with the rest of the group and engaged in overlapping "fictional worlds" -- my idea being that each of us was simply translating a shared experience in different ways.
The whole experience totally creeped me out. The more intentional the experience, and the greater the effort for "truth" the more distortion I saw. It was almost as if the more focus we all gave it, the more our unexpressed unconscious expectations/needs/desires structured the mutal parameters. The more the "group" came into agreement about what was real, the farther I felt we all were from the true experience.
Did I mention that I was a loose cannon?
I found (as the only "experienced" novelist) that if I focused I could "bend" the group experience so that it was closer to my reality set. It wasn't that my reality was any more valid -- it was just better organized because of my sense of poetic license and plot. With that more solid organization, the whole group could retain more details -- but it always seemed to be tainted by the hidden preconceptions.
I HATED the experience and when I realized that I didn't have the capacity to attain mastery and achieve a higher level of truth, I bailed out on the whole thing.
As far as "lies" -- what I saw was a lack of capacity to deal with constantly manupulating the communication stream -- it was nearly impossible for us to find any reliable baseline. I think the problem was geometrically accumulating mistranslations that got completely out of hand.
As long as it's viewed as "fiction" the unconscious mind can extract what's relevant. There's something that happened when we intentionally moved into the "real" category that bent everything completly out of proportion.
I THINK someone with a strong Jungian background could explain this as simple and natural.
Not me.
I'm impressed with Spectral Dragon's capacity to just hang in here against all odds and just "say what he sees"
Regards to all,
Christina
Very interesting story. Thanks 4 sharing. Are you saying that your group just took the experience way too seriously?
I would just look at it as a fun little fantasy romp- akin to a virtual reality video game. I think I've already experienced such games, but I've never been as conscious as I'd like to be during the experience.
Laughing . . . oh yeah . . . we took it WAY too serious!
Quote from: ChimeraeI was astonished -- and a little bit creeped out -- to hear "my" undisclosed novel characters and environment described in out of body experiences by other people. I was not at that time talking about my writing.
Wow! Pretty difficult to deal with the copy right, isn't it? :D :D :D
Though the experience of the collective consciousness can much satisfaction, when managed in the good way! Basically everything what we do is a collective happening, and sometimes living this has the healing effect of getting rid of ego :? ... But obviously this was not a inspiring experience.
Illusion does not necessary imply lies. It can be simply a way to the understanding of inexpressible reality aspects. When we say "mysterious are God's way" we do not assume that God is attracting us in some sort of lies, but on the contrary, that he is creating a wondrous path to revelation, that he is creating a play for us to watch and to act in, on his side, and finally become one. :?:
Truth is one, but manifests having many facets. I suppose it's a truism, but we meditate sometime on such truisms.
Quote from: ChimeraeI found (as the only "experienced" novelist) that if I focused I could "bend" the group experience so that it was closer to my reality set. It wasn't that my reality was any more valid -- it was just better organized because of my sense of poetic license and plot.
Quote from: ChimeraeAs long as it's viewed as "fiction" the unconscious mind can extract what's relevant. There's something that happened when we intentionally moved into the "real" category that bent everything completly out of proportion.
I don't know very much about Jung, what I can relate this to, is the influence Jung had on a German writer, Hermann Hesse (he wrote 'Steppenwolf' and 'The Glass Bead Game'). Jung considered that most of the western authors had fallen on the trap of their Anima archetype, because of not being able to integrate it, and this caused their works to distort reality and be fruitless fantasies. (He even assumes this about Goethe!) So there is an artistic value, but a weak connection to reality.
What Hesse tried to do (both because of his inter reaction with Jung's therapy as a patient and because he was sick of learning about the distinction between a correct perception of reality and artistic creation) was to work on himself and integrate these archetypes and express them as literature only up to the point he had reached in his analysis. (As well as an analyst doctor will not be allowed to treat patients but up to the level he himself has successfully integrated.) Because Hesse sincerely followed this rule he imposed upon himself, he mastered his fantasies and illusion and turned them into inspiring art.
Goethe expressed his despair and suicidal tendencies in 'Werther', which cured him, but this book caused a series of suicide at that time (any teacher of German will accept this as a fact :? ), Hesse turned his depressions into elevating and curing art, because he did not let unfinished the confrontation with the unconscious.
At least for me, this 'Glass Bead Game' worked like a magic writing and made me look deep into myself and balanced me very much.
Everything I say is a lie....except that...and that....and that. and that....and that...................and that.
Well I've never posted on here, so I can't say that I've lied....yet
Josephine 8)
Quote from: TelosQuote from: SpectralDragonHow so?
Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?
Thinking of it that way yes I can see where you are coming from. You would have to read fictional worlds topic to see why we are saying "it is real," ect.
Here it is, it might read like fanfic at first though.
http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15&start=0
Quote from: SpectralDragonQuote from: TelosQuote from: SpectralDragonHow so?
Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?
Thinking of it that way yes I can see where you are coming from. You would have to read fictional worlds topic to see why we are saying "it is real," ect.
Here it is, it might read like fanfic at first though.
http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15&start=0
SD, didn't you make that post a few days ago?
Quote from: TelosQuote from: SpectralDragonQuote from: TelosQuote from: SpectralDragonHow so?
Because fiction is a fabrication, as is a lie?
Thinking of it that way yes I can see where you are coming from. You would have to read fictional worlds topic to see why we are saying "it is real," ect.
Here it is, it might read like fanfic at first though.
http://www.gatesofmysticism.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15&start=0
SD, didn't you make that post a few days ago?
Yeah but it disapeared. Don't know how or why. (and so did this post actually....)
Maybe there is something wrong with my internet sending info.
On Lies
Question.
When somebody talks in their sleep are they aware of what they are saying?
IMO awareness = consciousness, so that should shift the question to make it more answerable.
I think in your sleep, especially if someone is saying something, there is some kinda "residual" consciousness, but way below usual levels. Thats what I've noticed anyway, meh
Rob