Evolution (need alot of input please)

[Ben K]

I have been pondering alot of stuff for the last few weeks, mostly because my beliefs and attitude towards reality and life have changed immseasurably. So my question now is this: If we created this world then where does evolution fit into the picture? Not even that but how did we get here? And, as always, no fighting in my thread or i will e-kick you out of my thread

[Krevency]

Well, as I believe, it's kind of complex.  

I think that we didn't create the universe just the way it is now, but created it the way physicists believe it was created (expansion, cooling, evolution) and fate was there to steer everything in the right direction.

I think it's pretty important that there are as many ways as possible for people to disbelieve the supernatural.  It allows different belief systems to reign over different ages (i.e. age of Pisces, age of Aquarius) and we have many opportunities to grow spiritually, different growth happening in different societies at different times.

Those are less-developed versions of my thoughts on the matter.  Thoughts that I've never really tried to put into words before, I guess.

[no_leaf_clover]

What do you mean 'if we created this world'? Certainly we couldn't have created it physically, or at least not in forms such as these, so I'm not sure what you mean.

I think the Earth was seeded with life. I don't think it spawned from any mixture of chemicals and clay or any excrement like that. In my opinion, that logic isn't far removed from dark age science of rags + food + a corner = rats are born (and I'm not making that up sadly).

[Gandalf]

Yeah, interesting question. I do subscribe to the theory of evolution in the sense that I believe biological life forms (or at least the physical 'vehicles' for life) evolve using natural selection as worked out in the theory.

However I also think that some design *can* go in if desired... not in the sense of god doing it like the Christian creationists believe, with their ludicrous 6 day biblical story: that should be quite rightly derided, but perhaps *we*, in our Wider Reality sense (on the 'other side' as it were), do direct particular courses of physical evolution. I think that science doesn't have the whole story on evolution; it only has a part of it. I think it is set up to replicate and evolve by itself but it can be directed if need be by *us*, as it is my view that we are far more than just what we normally perceive ourselves to be. In the Wider Reality I think we do a lot more tinkering about with biological evolution than we are generally aware.

So I would say I'm a proponant of evolutionism with a bit of 'intelligent design' thrown in, but NOT biblical creationism, which unfortunatly is what most people (including scientists) think when you use the term 'creationism' or 'intelligent design'. However, it doesnt have to mean that. For example, Arthur C Clarke's 2001 saga can be termed a form of 'intelligent design' (super powerful aliens) but he is an arch materialist and certainly not a biblical creationist!

Doug

[Ben K]

What do you mean 'if we created this world'? Certainly we couldn't have created it physically, or at least not in forms such as these, so I'm not sure what you mean.

I think the Earth was seeded with life. I don't think it spawned from any mixture of chemicals and clay or any excrement like that. In my opinion, that logic isn't far removed from dark age science of rags + food + a corner = rats are born (and I'm not making that up sadly).

I mean exactly that. We created this physical universe so we could inhabit it. That is one of the only things i feel sure about, until i can phase and learn from experiance.

I also believe we are the only intelligent life in our universe. I cant buy that there are people "spying" on us from different planets and they havnt even tried to establish contact(at least with us normal folk, all that bs about being in league with our govt etc). I think its much more plausable that these things are actually people from different universes who have created technology to come to ours.

[Krevency]

I agree.  I believe that this physical universe was created for we souls to learn our lessons, and grow.  

Want scientific proof?

Well you ain't gettin any!  LOL!

[Krevency]

I like the story in "there is a river" by edgar cayce

I haven't read that.  What's the story?

[Scorpyn]

The theory of evolution is not really undisputed.

[no_leaf_clover]

I mean exactly that. We created this physical universe so we could inhabit it. That is one of the only things i feel sure about, until i can phase and learn from experiance.

I didn't mean creating the physical universe, but creating the world physically.. as in humans building the Earth, lol. But I get what you're saying now I think.

Why would the universe be created so vast if only we were to inhabit it? And why have we only come about as a race so long after its initial creation?

[Ben K]

Remember we are only beginning to explore the universe. In the future(10,000 yrs+?) its perfectly plausible that we will inhabit many many many more galaxies/planets. Maybe its just breathing space? Maybe just so we can look at something pleasent at night. Who knows.

As for your second question, my guess is that we created this universe with earth "ready" for life to develop, and sort of let it take its own course.

But then again, i dont know. Thats why I made this topic I find it hard to believe in stuff like big bang(something from nothing? gimme a break) and creationism(The concept of an entity creating this universe and then creating us). So i basically limit it down to US creating this world to LIVE and EXPERIANCE.

[Ben K]

The theory of evolution is not really undisputed.

I see evolution as the same thing as creationism, just another way to explain how we came about. Im sure in the future people will laugh at evolutionists like we laugh at creationists today. That isnt to say, however, that evolution is any more right/wrong than creationism. They are both the same thing in my book.

[Krevency]

A side note on evolution: (I'll try to keep this very brief)
I think that people get too caught up in the mystique of evolution.  It's really super-simple.

1). Things that are stronger live longer.  If I'm a monkey, but my brother is a faster monkey, he has a higher chance of outliving me, than I do of outliving him.

2).  The longer an animal lives, the more babies it has.

3).  My monkey brother lives longer than me, and his kids, generally, move more quickly than my kids.  And there are a few more of them.  And they, generally, live longer than my kids, and have more kids...

Evolution explained in three steps.

And on the big bang:

It's not supposed to be as simple as something from nothing.  I've been reading a lot about physics lately, and while the Big Bang is not an undisputed theory, even among physicists, it's not as simple as

nothing, nothing, nothing..... BANG!  UNIVERSE!  lol.

[Krevency]

And the rest were Buddhas.  Heh.

That's a cool story.  I can't say I'll just believe it off the bat, but I'll definitely hold onto it.

[no_leaf_clover]

Remember we are only beginning to explore the universe. In the future(10,000 yrs+?) its perfectly plausible that we will inhabit many many many more galaxies/planets. Maybe its just breathing space? Maybe just so we can look at something pleasent at night. Who knows.

As for your second question, my guess is that we created this universe with earth "ready" for life to develop, and sort of let it take its own course.

All that's reasonable. I just think that's a lottt of space out there just for us I guess, and certainly a lot of time. We just come from different views here.

[Souljah333]

anyone read the URANTIA book?

[no_leaf_clover]

Krevency -

The way a community of a species successfully and efficiently adapts to its environment plays a large role in living longer and multiplying more, right? As in what began as learning to make use of arms and paws to swim leads to flippers millions of years down the road in some cases, simply because it turned out to be a huge advantage for a certain group of creatures in a particular environment. These are the sorts of things Darwin began to discover on the individual Galapagos Islands.

Well, are these adaptations not a direct result of the originality of a creature? I would suppose it's either that or else accepting that all possibilities of possible evolutions are hardwired into our instincts (and thus in this case, evolution would be more guided than currently held).

But considering that adaptations are direct result of intelligence, even with a basic 'such and such an action = good, such and such = bad', etc., even if at a subconscious level, then we guide our own evolution. Imagine if everyone sits in front of a computer for most of their waking life for hundreds of thousands of years. Visible changes would likely start to appear on our bodies to adapt to this. We would no longer be the same beings as our ancestors that hunted and gathered for a living, living bare and open to nature.

So my question now is this: If we created this world then where does evolution fit into the picture?

If I have this right, then it will fit wherever we and our children place it collectively.

Likewise, our ancestors were simply coping to their environments to survive more efficiently. Over time this brought us to where we are now.

[Ben K]

And on the big bang:

It's not supposed to be as simple as something from nothing.  I've been reading a lot about physics lately, and while the Big Bang is not an undisputed theory, even among physicists, it's not as simple as

nothing, nothing, nothing..... BANG!  UNIVERSE!  lol.

Well then what was there before our universe? Another universe? Then what was there before that universe etc..

Youve also got to keep in mind that physics is simply another belief system that we created. Thinking we know how our universe came about is to me a lot like people in the 17th century thinking the world was round!

What we believe is formed by our perspective. People saw the sun go down and come up, so naturally they believed that the sun revolved around us. Silly them, they never thought to simply look at it from a different perspective and see the truth.

I think its much the same way today. We see the stars and other galaxies and come to a conclusion(Big Bang) based on our perspective.

A fatal flaw in every generation of human is thinking that there generation is the one that "gets it". People think simply because you are alive and can read about the past that we must know everything. If you went back in time to the 17th century would you believe what they believed? Now what would happen if you asked someone from, say, the 24th century about us? Let me tell you, we are no different from the people of the 17th century and I believe in time we will come to realize these things.

I cant wait  

[Souljah333]

sometime i think that this is all some virtual training program. i guess everyone has played "the sims" at one point or another (a knows it's a ridiculous, mindless waste of time), but there is something to it where daily life is concerned and keeping everything balanced to continue in the game. the mundane stuff can be vital in a sense...get enough sleep so you can get along, use your free time wisely, don't forget to have fun, yada, yada. it's nowhere near the best programmed game, but something fairly brilliant came out of it by mistake (i think).
i can see us all as "apprentices" of life. I remember someone explaining communism to me when i was younger...they said that if you showed a proficiency in something like dancing...then you were a ballerina. if you were good with numbers you had to be a bookkeeper or banker. what if time as we know it is just a flash in the pan. you hook yourself into this world for experience: how well you problem solve, where your passions lie, what motivates you, etc...you get as many lifetimes as you want to make mistakes, bonk up, learn about yourself and interacting...and when you're ready you're introduced in the "real world" as a wiser member of society, but still as an apprentice (except now you have a purpose). isn't that what people want to know a lot of the time...what's my purpose?!?

could explain why the earth is just here, why we haven't been contacted by higher life forms, etc. it could even explain the astral...that we can't be interacting all the time, so we're put into some sort of stasis as we sleep (outside of the "main-frame-of-mind") but we're still in the program, but without the rules. (residue from our so called waking life mixed with the subconscious fragments from a completely different life we've been separated from for the time being).

omg...what am i talking about?!?

no one's read urantia?!?
333

[Ben K]

Souljah- we cross posted :X

I agree, i think that physical life can be likened to a training program. But i like to think of it more as a game

We put ourselves here, experiance this crazy world and then once we are done, tally up the points and if you think you need to, you can play again

[Souljah333]

BenK,

weren't you the same person only a few days ago that asked who would you rather ask for advice...siddhartha or a modern man (something like that...was that you? maybe i'm losing me mind)...but...I LIKE THIS NEW ENERGY!
very attractive! what happened to change your perspective immeasurably?

333

anyone heard that the new evil number is 616?!? see i hate excrement like that. you take someones word for something, build it into your foundation, and then wham..."sorry, we got it wrong. there was little bit of dirt on that part of the scroll".    not that ever believe a number could be evil.

[Souljah333]

yeah but you see that causes a whole bunch more problems for me, and some anxiety too. cuz if it's a game...i'm wasting just as much time in an alternate dimension as i am here?!? man...that would make me twice as fu*ked up as i think i am!
333 (or 308 for BENK)

[Ben K]

BenK,

weren't you the same person only a few days ago that asked who would you rather ask for advice...siddhartha or a modern man (something like that...was that you? maybe i'm losing me mind)...but...I LIKE THIS NEW ENERGY!
very attractive! what happened to change your perspective immeasurably?

333

anyone heard that the new evil number is 616?!? see i hate excrement like that. you take someones word for something, build it into your foundation, and then wham..."sorry, we got it wrong. there was little bit of dirt on that part of the scroll".    not that ever believe a number could be evil.

Haha, yeah i said that, and i still think i stick to it. When it comes down to it, I would rather read about reality in modern english on a message board from real people who have experianced these things than some book translated into sem-victorian english full of cryptic sentances and meaningless hogwash. Im sure you could get alot of very useful information out of these books if you have the patience, but all it really does for me is make my head hurt

I guess I just believe that reality is alot simpler than some people like to think.

[Ben K]

yeah but you see that causes a whole bunch more problems for me, and some anxiety too. cuz if it's a game...i'm wasting just as much time in an alternate dimension as i am here?!? man...that would make me twice as fu*ked up as i think i am!
333 (or 308 for BENK)

Hmm...how can you waste time when there is no time to be wasted?

[no_leaf_clover]

sometime i think that this is all some virtual training program. i guess everyone has played "the sims" at one point or another (a knows it's a ridiculous, mindless waste of time), but there is something to it where daily life is concerned and keeping everything balanced to continue in the game.

I feel that way too. How can we experience having to eat, sleep, balance our other responsibilities.. when we're free-floating around in FoC 3? Something we miss out on out there I guess.

anyone heard that the new evil number is 616?!? see i hate excrement like that. you take someones word for something, build it into your foundation, and then wham..."sorry, we got it wrong. there was little bit of dirt on that part of the scroll"

Not trying to be picky here, but if you read the article more carefully, they never say that they were mistaken, or that even 616 is the right number.

They simply found an early text that had 616 instead of 666 for a change apparently, raising ideas that 616 may be the 'real' one, despite being outnumbered and out-aged. Articles can be manipulative like that.

[Ben K]

I have a question:

What crackhead antichrist would actually use that number now that everyone knows what it is?