Free Will, or is it ?

jc84corvette · November 02, 2003, 19:50:49

"Is it simply a matter of two wills, our's and God's ? Is it willful of us to try and see our options and choose according to what we want ? Or do we end our struggling by relinquishing our own will and wants so that we can go with the flow, if that is what God's will is ? Is going with the flow really giving all things over to the Creator, so that we just accept what comes our way, without feeling deprived because we may not get what we want ?"

I think people go inbetween that. They live up to gods will and their own. Bolth are always conflicting.

Hyperdimensional · November 02, 2003, 20:01:02

Hi,

The easy way is to follow the flow, but each person is different, I believe you must choose your own will, you could analyse the people will but choose the will by yourself.

I don't think God choose only one will. We have options, explore each one.

Best regards

Ybom · November 02, 2003, 23:07:07

Learning the concept of free will in depth requires you to see the future. It's sort of like the Matrix - you can't be told if you have free will, you have to see the truth for yourself!

I can't convince you either way based on scientific or philosophical reason, because this is an ongoing arguement that will never stop. However, my idea of free will is jello-like in nature. You have a general path that you go down and you can jiggle around that path a little until a jello mold/cutter comes down and divides your will into a new form (new path), but you have a finite number of paths, just like you only have so many cookie cutters and are only so skilled with a knife if you want to cut it yourself!

Now that we're on the subject of jello, I recommend you go out and get a 6 pack and enjoy! [^]

Fat_Turkey · November 03, 2003, 00:52:07

The question is not really a matter of God and Man's wills, for they are either one in the same thing, as we are born of God, or htey are conflicting.

The real question that should be asked is, "is free will real at all?"

You see, if we are as Mr Darwin and the rest of bungaloo science land says we are, nothing but chemicals that is, then everything we do is governed by chemical impulses. Our brain fires off shocks and our body obeys. Why? Because we choose to? Science say no, yet most of us would probably disagree. I would rather see the brain as something that registers commands from the mind, rather than the origin.

Take a MRI scan of a brain. Music is played, and certain parts of the brain light up. Those brains didn't exactly choose to light up now did they? They just did. Registering the liking or disliking of the music. So there poses my own personal "proof" for my belief that hte mind is seperate from the brain.

But back to will. If we are, in fact, multidimensional beings, as I myself thoroughly believe, then the question lies in whether or not this has all been preordained, set by God before or now or later(!?), or simply if free will is nothing but an illusion. I mean, how do we know we are not reliving an experience? Exactly, we don't.

But here's the thing, it probably hurts your head reading through all of this. So why bother? Go train yourself for projection, or else you'll never get out!

~FT

WalkerInTheWoods · November 03, 2003, 05:03:18

Does it really matter?

beavis · November 03, 2003, 09:16:25

Doesnt live tv (without "live") look the same as recorded tv?

cinnabardk · November 03, 2003, 13:33:26

quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin
I've been thinking about this for a little while now, as things show me that it is easier to give up the struggle and just go with the flow. Just about everyone I see who has is always much happier, so I decided to ask you people what you think. SO here are the questions..

Yes, indeed it is much easier to go with the inner flow. I found it very hard trying to "conform" to society. (Perhaps you meant something else ? [

]). For me, the greatest struggle consisted of choosing which flow, inner or outer, to go with.

Tayesin, it seems that you assume that God is not within. How can something created be separate from the creator ?.

Although the question of free will is a non-issue for me as I am now, perhaps the following experiences may be of some interest to you.
Once I had a dream where I saw a scene, from what I would later discover, could appropriately be called the future. In this very short "videotaped" scene, (I was not present at the scene, or at least my present consciousness was not) I saw some people in a room. About a year later I had moved to a different school, and I saw the same people that I had seen a year earlier in my dream.
Some time later, I had another "prophetic" dream: I saw someone I did not know, walk to a place. About a year later, I had moved to a different school (again), and I saw the exact same person walk in exactly the same manner to exactly the same place. This time, not wanting to miss the opportunity, I said to her (whom I now knew) that I had seen the exact same thing about a year before in a dream.

quote:
Originally posted by Tayesin
So just how free is this free will ?

In my opinion, it is free to the extent that you perceive it to be free.

beavis · November 03, 2003, 14:41:20

The existance of free will cant be determined by knowledge of future events. What matters is the method that is used to make a choice at the time it is made. To be free, the choice must be influenced by true randomness or something else that has free will. Anything else is deterministic. We can never show by observation that anything is truly random because we have not considered and eliminated all possible patterns to its apparent randomness.

jc84corvette · November 03, 2003, 15:04:23

I like live tv.[

]

Blue Giant · November 03, 2003, 16:28:02

Hey Tayesin,
Perhaps every possible path is made. Remember those "choose your own adventure" books. It may be like that. If you don't know the books I'm talking about, they were children's stories back in the 80's. The books contained some adventure that you would partake on. However, as you were lead through the book you would end up having to choose where to go. There would be certain situations that arised and you (as in the reader) would have decide what to do. Then you would be given options as to which direction you wanted the story to go. For instance, they (as in the other (god)) would give you a choice, "If you want to chase after the elf turn to page 17" or "If you want to see if you can find your own treasure without chasing the elf turn to page 34". The book in this instance may represent GOD, containing multiple paths in which you patake. Yet, you have already taken every path, just as the characters are written in the book. It is where the one conscious you is at one particular time. Is there more than one you that is taking another path. You, however, jump consiously between the multiple you to see your particular outcome. Maybe, some outcomes are better than others. Possibly, you have to start over in the book or in a different book and make the right choices to go on to the next book? So, what I'm leading to is that you have the choice, however, every choice has already been made. If "GOD" were to be complete I have a feeling that he would not leave anything out! teehee
Just my thoughts...

Rusty

Blue Giant · November 03, 2003, 16:36:50

Oh yeah...
I just remembered that the books were set up that you had to make the "right" choices for the best outcome. Sometimes if you made the "wrong" (so to speak) choice the story would end early, yet, if you kept on choosing the more beneficial (for lack of a better word) one, you would continue through the story for a so called happy ending.

I think possibly wizards are the adventurers that have been choosing "wisely" throughout the story (ies). They keep the character the same, taking what they've become onto the next adventure. I don't understand the opposing characters...the one's that trip you up and lead you to the "wrong" decisions". I'm by no means relating this to any religions, yet, it rings the same kind of bell.

Rusty

Tayesin · November 05, 2003, 05:36:58

Hi ALL,
Thanks for all the replies, I really enjoyed reading them. These questions have been building up over a period of time coz of a perception I have when I am down, about how butt-holes seem to get everything they want while so many 'good' people (myself included) seem to have to struggle to get anything. Yeah, it's a bit morbid!!

The day I posted this thread I just had an experience of not being allowed to have my choice in the moment, which was against the grain of what the Universe/creator/god had supplied for me. So I was a little peeved to say the least, LOL. I ranted at the creative force about it and yelled etc, asking why I could not have what I had chosen to do...the answer came back, "Because you will learn this lesson more effectively this way"

A few hours later, using hindsight, I could see what had been in it for me and how my needs had been met in other ways, even if I did not like those ways. So really, my choice was going against the flow, hence the questions I asked you all. What I needed to do was align myself with the flow and accept what had been offered to fulfill my needs, instead of fighting to have MY way. This I have now done, and everything is flowing along nicely.

I have to say, I do not percieve myself and god as being separate at any moment and I do get out of this body to gain clearer perceptions, although it is not always necessary to do so if we can look at a situation openly and honestly within ourselves. I can see that we have many choices in every moment, but perhaps sometimes there are some that we cannot choose.

This may sound a little out of whack with the many times I have expounded the concept of the multitude of life experiences we chose for ourselves with all the various choice options, etc, before incarnating here. But, it is apparent to me that sometimes we are 'protected' from dumb choices by the higher forces, which kind of equates to not being able to have the choices we want to make at certain times. As per this instance I mentioned above.

At least I have been able to see the bigger picture on this situation, and for that I am greatful. Also, I am greatful to all of you who responded to this thread with your own wisdoms, thank you all.

Love Always[

]

Fyrenze · November 05, 2003, 07:43:58

Freedom is the outgrowth of discipline.

In otherwords, we ARE free to do as we choose - but we have to be disciplined, otherwise our freedom can be taken from us very easily.

I'm not sure if this is my opinion or not, but it came up the other day, and I wanted to contribute.

][\/][

beavis · November 05, 2003, 10:50:08

Discipline sucks. Why should I want to act how somebody else wants me to?

TheSeeker · November 05, 2003, 11:06:31

Maybe our lives are like books that are already written, and we are witnessing the pages unfolding, in this situation there isn't really any freewill, you just think you have it. Or maybe you do have freewill, but since we're eternal (exist outside the bounds of time?), then the future already exists, we just can't see it all at once, or maybe.... *head explodes*.

I had deja vu one time, but it was like I was looking at my current moment in time from every other moment in time, except that moment. I know that was kind of random, but after my head exploding, I was reminded of that experience.

WalkerInTheWoods · November 05, 2003, 12:16:35

I tend to think that everything has already happened. Kind of like time is not necessarily linear. But we are experiencing it in a linear manner. So on the one hand if everything has already happened you could kind of say that you do not have free will in that what you will do has already happened. But on the other hand, you do have free will it is just that you have already made your choices, or will, and have yet to experience them in the linear fashion. Well this makes sense in my head, but words seem to cloud the idea.

TheSeeker · November 05, 2003, 12:27:19

That is what I meant Fallen, just when I try to explain it, it's hard, I feel like I'm chasing my tail (if I had one).

wonderer · November 05, 2003, 18:34:11

hi all [

] i've been reading posts in this forum for some time now but this is my very first post. i decided to reply b/c i thought this was an interesting topic... so here's my two cents on it Tayesin~

i think having "free will" really is a question of identity. we have the free will to assume an identity that is close to or very far from God. The closer and closer we identify ourselves with our higher selves (God), i think our "will" becomes God's will .. and vice versa. so... when you're feeling like ur being "forced" to choose to do something a certain way.. maybe it means that the higher-self identity of God inside is so strong that it feels like it's being forced because your the objection of ur personal identity had so little say in the matter. hmm.. i dunno if i'm making sense at this point.. but this is my take on "free will"... [|)] hope it doesnt sound too off-the-wall.

cpsychis · November 06, 2003, 09:50:44

Hullo Tayesin. I am wondering also about this thing that is called free will and in my mind is very difficult to find any! In this controlled world to be free, you need money first to be totally free and do as you pleased. I am saying this because money money is needed for travelling, attending seminars, buying books, buying goods and technology, have a house and I came to this life and I want to live this world. The sociaty puts us rules as we are children, the religious of any kind the same, the parents, the friends and although you can be somehow free yourself from these, then the worst come. JOB. You need money and your chances to find a fair, honest, appriciating boss are not so good. So if you need the job for the money at the end, by the years you become the slave of your boss. And imagine to have a family! I am trying for years to fight this and I always end up fighting with my bosses because I am always straight, say what I have in mind and try to be as fair as I can because at the end the boss will do what he wants. So as long you are young, you are ready for a revolution with a lot of others. At my age (35) I hardly find anybody at least in my country. Everybody goes with the system. No free will around!

Tayesin · November 02, 2003, 19:33:55

Hi All,

I've been thinking about this for a little while now, as things show me that it is easier to give up the struggle and just go with the flow. Just about everyone I see who has is always much happier, so I decided to ask you people what you think. SO here are the questions..

We have all heard about free will, we are told that we all have it, we have the right to choose for ourselves, to choose to do one thing or something else and even take a completely different way. But is free will really like that ? Are we able to make as many choices as we see options ? If it is our will that is free then what other will is there ?

   Christians speak about aligning ourselves with the Creator's Will and in so doing give all things over to God. Does that still leave us with our own will and choices ? Or does it imply that by choosing to give away our will to align with the Creator's that we forego any other options availabe ?

   Is it simply a matter of two wills, our's and God's ? Is it willful of us to try and see our options and choose according to what we want ? Or do we end our struggling by relinquishing our own will and wants so that we can go with the flow, if that is what God's will is ? Is going with the flow really giving all things over to the Creator, so that we just accept what comes our way, without feeling deprived because we may not get what we want ?

   If we truly have free will, then wouldn't it be working in our favour to exercise it, to choose what we want and desire in our life ? Or is doing so totally in opposition to the Creator's will ? And if it is against the Creator's will then are we to suffer for it by struggling to attain what we want, even if that is not what God wants to provide for us ?

   So just how free is this free will ?

Let me know what you think, I eagerly await your replies.

Love Always.[

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