Goodbye

[mactombs]

This is my last post.

I had a lot of good times (in forum dimensions) here. Lots of good people. But I have to learn to live in the real world now. The idea of magic is dangerous. Fantasy and emotion can get away, and delusion destroys.

I'm growing up.

[Nay]

Good for you, Mactombs.

[Vilkate]

I'm proud with your brave decision, Mactombs.
Though I'm a new member, I always enjoyed reading your posts. Thank you for the time you've spent here.

Farewell!   :goodbye:

[MisterJingo]

Hey mactombs,

It will be sad to see you go. I've enjoyed reading your posts and ideas in your time here.
I hope things go well for you in whatever direction you choose to take .

[Kazbadan]

Good luck Mac! I understand your view: getting to much time in computer + learning obes + learning paranormal stuff, etc make me strange. Thats the reason why i came here just 1-2 times a day and i dont learn obes...i need to live in the real world first.

Bye my friend!

[Stookie]

You've had some great ideas and input that I've enjoyed reading. Good luck! I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Selski]

You will be missed mactombs.

Good luck in the real world.  I hope you find happiness.  

Sarah

[rave_master_naruto]

ummmmm...what is the "REAL WORLD" looks like?  

[Kazbadan]

rave master, your avatar of the cat is lovely ehehe! i love cats (probably i was a cat in my last encarnation, lol)

[rave_master_naruto]

dont worry kazbadan i will tell my cat that you loved him..

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.
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and ooh!, i almost forgot, i am a dog in my past life.  

[Nostic]

"...no such thing as the real world,
Just a lie you've got to rise above"

[knightlight]

MAC  NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lol.... no more stories of being chased by zombies and hiding in trees.  

[mactombs]

I thought I'd make a follow-up post. 

Looking back, here are a few things I've learned about the metaphysical, the mystical, and life in general.

The mystical arena is rife with fraud, cons, and delusion. Deception is so prevalent that it deters researchers from taking a serious interest in the topic.  Everywhere there are people trying to make a buck off nothing more than social engineering and twisting facts: swindlers trying to garner enough attention to sell books, seminars, etc. (case in point: Allison DuBois per the recent article "Police Psychics - Seeking Kids - and Headlines" in Time's Exploring The Unexplained).

The only areas of the paranormal that hold any credence seem to be so elusive as to be forever unsolved (case in point: Congress commissioned a study to review Stargate which found the program a dubious investment -- however, the hit rates in lab experiments had been statistically impossible by chance, and the report's statistician said "using the standards applied to any other area of science, the case for psychic functioning has been scientifically proven.")

Mystical musing often references quantum physics and all sorts of pseudoscience (see the article "Quantum Mysticism" at http://www.answers.com/topic/quantum-mysticism). "Magical thinking" is also popular, "a kind of non-scientific causal reasoning" (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking). It's easy to become delusional in the gas cloud that is modern mysticism -- especially if you denounce reason and skepticism in favor of belief.

When it comes specifically to OBEs, I am increasingly convinced this phenomenon is owed to the brain state psychologists call "sleep paralysis", or the hypnogogic state (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis). This state is capable of creating very vivid -- but false -- memories. Most accounts of OBEs support whatever beliefs the person experiencing the OBE eschews. Everything experienced in an OBE is created entirely inside the person's ahead, and doesn't actually ever occur "out of body". In short, it is an excellent state in which to experience one's own imagination.

As far as experiencing OBEs, it's luck or mastery of falling asleep (or doing the opposite of the tips on how to cope with sleep paralysis at http://www.wikihow.com/Cope-With-Sleep-Paralysis ).

On the other hand, I've discovered there's a lot to explore in everyday reality: things I didn't know about myself, internal psychological realities that seem endless; there are different realities to encounter just by getting out into the world, traveling, meeting people, and experiencing other cultures. The "mundane" world is as vivid and deep as I am willing to be aware of.

[Selski]

Hi mac

Good to see you again and great to hear you are enjoying earth.

I agree that the mystical arena is rife with fraud, cons and delusion.  I also believe that every single human arena is rife with fraud, cons and delusion.  Just chuck humans into the mix and you've got fraud, cons and delusion. 

With regard to OBEs, again anything is possible.  You take your own path - just as you do in the real world.  I disagree with sleep paralysis as I've never experienced it (not knowingly anyway).  I don't mean I don't think it happens, but I don't believe that OBEs come about purely from this state.  Of course that's only based on my experience, and it's only a belief, not a given.  Just like anything to do with OBEs is a belief.

I've had experiences were it appears (from all angles and all sensations) that I have literally climbed out of my physical shell and walked across the room.  However, I am still open to the possibility that it's "all in my head".  But it's difficult for humans to remain open to other possibilities.  Just as scientists discover a "law" by experimenting a number of times, and then tell the rest of the human race that it is a "given", "fact" and "known".  Those scientists then become blinkered and won't look at something that doesn't "fit" their law, because to them it's obviously not real.  Ha!

The 'mundane' world is breathtaking beyond belief.  It doesn't have to be one thing or the other.  You can have both worlds.  I take part in this real world as much as I take part in my other reality (whatever that is). 

You can have your cake... and eat it.  I do anyroad. 

Sarah

[Woah]

Imagine if all the time you spent on this forum was spent projecting/meditating/etc.

[mactombs]

Thanks for your reply, Sarah.

Yes, there are many areas in life with cons and lies ... like car lots, the Internet, and singles bars. But there are places where cons and misinformation proliferate better, in the same way that bacteria proliferate better under certain conditions. Skepticism and critical thinking skills are a life skill because of this.

Although scientists can be skewed in their views, the scientific method is best means we have for ascertaining whether something is true or not. The scientific method can be applied to OBEs, but not easily, especially considering the chaotic nature of OBEs -- it comes to the decision of whether or not everything you experience is real. If it is real, how much of it is relevent? And what makes something relevent? From my point of view, it's relevent if it impacts my life in a real way.

Sleep paralysis is something I have experienced, recently, frequently, and for long durations. It is physiological, as it always occurs under the same situations -- waking from REM and laying on my back.

You're right about having your cake and eating it too. That's not really my point (that it's one or the other), though I can see it might seem that way. My point is that the "mundane" world can be explored and experienced with an equal sense of thrill and wonderment -- and in this case, I feel it is more relevent to my life (since it is my "mundane" life I spend the majority of remembered, concious awareness in).

I guess I should have said, "I tried being the intrepid adventurer in real life and I highly recommend it." (Maybe I didn't say that because whatever I say about it, I feel it does the truth terrible injustice in its deporably understated articulation.  ) In conjunction with that, I feel a better sense of my critical thinking and skepticism add a great deal to this experience. Just exploring my inner psychological realities has been overwhelming and exciting, but add the outside world and its infinite facets ... it helps to have a refined lense through which to get the best possible scope with which to experience and observe.

Maybe I'm also trying to say, be careful what you cloud your lense with.

[Hannah b]

Good luck mactombs. Sorry to see you go, but I beleive that this decision will serve you well. yes we must be very careful not to forget that despite of everything , we ARE on planet earth, and there are reasons for being here, not "there"..orbiting after some illusionary truth. Go find your own truth, I trully wish you that. Keep your helmet on 

[mactombs]

Thank you, Hannah.

I just ran across this article and thought it might be of interest to some of you wondering about the nature of conciousness and other viewpoints. Here's a snippet:

No longer the sole purview of philosophers and mystics, consciousness is now attracting the attention of scientists from across a variety of different fields, each, it seems, with their own theories about what consciousness is and how it arises from the brain.

In many religions, consciousness is closely tied to the ancient notion of the soul, the idea that in each of us, there exists an immaterial essence that survives death and perhaps even predates birth. It was believed that the soul was what allowed us to think and feel, remember and reason.

Our personality, our individuality and our humanity were all believed to originate from the soul.

Nowadays, these things are generally attributed to physical processes in the brain, but exactly how chemical and electrical signals between trillions of brain cells called neurons are transformed into thoughts, emotions and a sense of self is still unknown.

The rest of the article can be found at: http://www.livescience.com/humanbiology/050808_human_consciousness.html

Anyway, let me echo the good luck sentiment to anyone who comes by this spot on the information crossroad of this forum ... And keep following that rabbit!

[Flannery]

Sarah, Mactombs also said this (about OBEs) :

or the hypnogogic state (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis).

For the onset of an "obe", this sounds like a highly plausible explanation.

MacTombs you bring very valid points and you seem very wise.

I don't need to say good luck here. I can only say "amen" to what you're saying.

You will be missed by me.