----->Homosexuality <------

[PeacefulWarrior]

One more thing:
SpiritGurl, I hope I have not offended you or hurt your feelings, if I have, I apologize.  I have a very close friend who feels that he too was born with homosexual tendencies.  I love him very much and he has communicated to me what an incredibly difficult time he has had along the way.  I don't judge you nor anyone else, that is left up to God.  

[Nerezza]

I agree with you 100% PeacefulWarrior. But I would be careful debating non-liberal views here, it only gets ugly.

[MJ-12]

jk

[Nerezza]

Not the political party, but the deffinition of the word, "liberal".

[Nerezza]

Im in the middle I guess, but as to the lifestyle of my cat, well, he's been known to frequent seedy establishments.

Seriously though, the cat is the cheshire cat from alice in wonderland, only it's from a videogame version.

http://www.alice.ea.com/images/wall1_1024.jpg

[James S]

quote:
By PeacefulWarrior

Lastly, James S, the bible is full of references to homosexuality was wrong...please look at Paul again. I don't, however, take my stance soley because of what the Bible says.

Both the pro and anti homosexual lobbies seem to be able to interprest so much of the bible to mean what they want it to, the translations could be argued indefinitely. I studied Pauls writings  a fair bit. I always tended to find him a little too obsessed with rules. Guess he just couldn't stop being a lawyer. In most things of this nature I would sit down and really draw on what Jesus had to say. He wasn't bound down by rules and regulations, which is why it irritated me so much that Paul seemed to insist on bringing up so many afterwards.

The way I see it, Jesus never had anything bad to say about homosexuals. He accepted everybody and was far less judgemental about people than any of us are. Wether you see him as the true son of god, or one of the great masters that came to this earth, he had an undeniable wisdom.

Yes PeacefulWarrior, there is a lot of anger towards you on this topic. Is it really any wonder? You started out the topic simply posing questions, for which you saw most people were accepting and supportive of homosexuals as being the same, and having the same rights as anyone else, then you come out and say very firmly its wrong and why you think it is so. To bring the religious aspect into it also didn't help. You say your not judging them, but stating your beliefs the way you are contradicts this.

You make no secrets of your beliefs, yet you clearly have not shown the kind of wisdom and tolerance that Jesus, the central figure of your religion is renowned for. How can you aspire to love people as Jesus asks us to, if you can't get over these discriminations.

I've heard the usual comments by christians on this account - "we love the people, its the sin we hate". That's a cop out! That just means that they'll do what they have to to love someone because they're told to, you know, you don't have to like them, you just have to love them. Then they can sit back comfortable in the knowledge that they've done their bit, and the rest will be punished for their sins.

From a religious perspective homosexuals are not accountable to you or anyone else for their ways, they are accountable soley to God for the lives they live, and from what I understand of his teachings through all the religions of the world, He loves everybody UNCONDITIONALLY.

A friend of mine came to me once several years back grieving because he had lost a friend. His friend, a homosexual, had commited suicide. The last place he thought he could go to seek some meaning from a life he was very confused about was a seemingly open and liberal church. The minister then started preaching at him about the sins of homosexuality, and that was just more than he could take. This kind of teaching of so called "loving acceptance of all" really really SUCKS and it happens TOO MUCH!!

Just love people FULL STOP! No ifs, buts, maybeys, and leave the judgement as to wether their ways, their sexuality, their lifestyles, their religion, the music they listen to, or whatever is wrong or not, up to God. Whatever your problem is with homosexuals, GET OVER IT! Your not going to really be able to love people as Jesus taught us until you do.

James.

P.S.
Sorry for lashin out Dan. You seem to me a more thoughtful and caring person than this. Maybe you've just been fed the wrong kind of input. I too once though the same as you on this subject. A little more perspective, and a devistated friend changed that for me.

[Anonymous]

Bruce Lee has said that the teachings of Zen tell us that there is really no problem, and therefore no solution. The trouble comes from our inability to realize it.

[PeacefulWarrior]

James:

Please don't put words in my mouth.  My goal is to love everybody with no "ifs".  I have stated this in here and in other threads.  If you choose not to believe me, fine, but I don't think it's fair to go off saying what I do and don't feel and what I do and don't believe.  I do not and will not do this to other people, yourself included.

I do not judge people, bottom line.  I may see someone who is violent and dangerous and therefore might choose to avoid them or their company.  This might be a from of judgement, the kind of judgement one must make everyday, but as far as "you are a sinner and are going to hell" kind of judgement, NEVER.  I don't even believe in "heaven and hell".  

Thanks for you thoughts though, I can tell you are a thoughtful person and I respect that.
-----------------

I don't apologize to anyone for taking a frim stance and having beliefs in a time when it is a fad to accept anything and everything.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Although this may not apply to this particular topic, certain things ARE wrong and certain judgements can and should be made.  Murder is wrong.  Sexual abuse is wrong... children and other innocent beings, heck -all of us- need to protect oursleves and others from certain things.  

Like I said, homosexuality isn't one of these "black and white" things, but to say that there is no need to judge or state, unequivocaly, whether something is good or bad, right or wrong, is denying the existence of these objective principles.

[goingslow]

"please dont use foul language" etc etc.

No what degrades this forum is topics like this.  Why not put up a topic about abortion right after it?  

People like you try to come across as so "peaceful".  "i do not judge you that is for god" as if you're somehow about beng judgmental but God is all for it?  Why would God "judge" if judging is wrong.  That is definitely a cop out.

The worst type of prejudice is said by people who pretend to be so intelligent because they dont cuss.  "please i'll talk about the evils of being gay but dont use a curse word.. it offends me".  

Worry more about the content than they way things are stated.  And again worry more about the excrement you're spouting than the fact i just used the word excrement.  

As for "only liberal viewpoints are accepted".  As if people are only acting non homophobic to seem liberal.  That was a moronic statement...deal with the topic not whether its liberal or conservative.  Of course conservatives have used liberal as a stigma instead of dealing with the issue.
It was just too stupid of a comment to even touch on.  Should we have answered the homophobia with "oh stop being conservative".  grow up and move past the labels.. deal with the issue.

[goingslow]

Ill step away from this topic it just gets more absurd.  Talking about judging murder and rape of children.. as a way to justify judging homosexuality.

I think you should ask yourself why you're so worried about if its worthy of judgement.  If you're being so good as to leave it up to god to judge why bring it up?  Why talk about if its wrong or right.

I find most homophobic people are concerned with being gay for a reason.  

I guess my problem is i assume people  here will be able to think for themselves.  AS if being interested in these types of things (OBE.. "spirituality") brings more intelligent people.  But i need to accept people on here are just as brainwashed as anyone else.  

Before you even put your opinions up I questioned the motives of someone who would put up a topic like this anyway.  If you're discussing homosexuality with yoru friends i could see.  But if you're in a group where there might be people who are gay.. i really dont think you'd say "so is being gay wrong".  Its offensive to those gay people.  

What if someone started spouting propaganda about mixed marriages or other prejudice excrement?  It would be seen as inappropriate.. so i dont see why a topic like this is even here.  But by responding to it im contributing to the fact its not sliding off the front page.

I also like how you're acting as if you're not trying to offend anyone.  YOu put a topic like this up knowing there are gay people who read this forum.  Its not thoughtful or peaceful even though you're trying to act so innocent and "im just bringing up a debate".  

this topic is a waste of time and put here to cause controversy.  Ill move on to topics this board is here to discuss.  Topics which force us to look at ourselves instead of another group...

[PeacefulWarrior]

GoingSlow-
Relax my friend!  Seriously.  If you feel you are right then don't get so worked up and angry.  Anger only proves that you are unsettled and do not approach things with an open mind and open heart.

You wrote: "As for 'only liberal viewpoints are accepted'. As if people are only acting non homophobic to seem liberal. That was a moronic statement...deal with the topic not whether its liberal or conservative."
Ok, first of all, I never said ANYTHING about liberal or conservative viewpoints, not one thing, so I don't know where you are coming up with that.

Secondly, if you feel this topic has no importance then please ignore it.  I, however, feel that topics such as this are very important.  If homophobics would approach this with an open heart and mind then we probably wouldn't find them committing horrid acts of violence against homosexuals.


Next, I don't understand some of the things you are saying, for example: "Worry more about the content than they way things are stated."  Contnet is the things which are being stated, or in other words, the things stated make up the content.  Do you mean the "subject"?

You also said I should not have brought up this topic here and should have instead brought it up with friends.  Well, I consider a lot of the people, actually everyone, here a friend.  Just because you disagree doesn't mean I should not have posted.  I am not making irresponsible or insincere blanket statements.  I am not judging anyone and I am not bringing this up just to make controversy.  In fact I feel like I have learned more about the subject.

Lastly, the fact that you continue to use foul language is really disheartening.  I am not terribly offended by it, but some people I know would be.  This forum has always been a place of mature discussion and I don't want to see that turn into mud slinging and swearing.  

[PeacefulWarrior]

Timeless- I am sorry if I misunderstood you, I tend to look at the biger picture and sometimes wax too philisophical![^]

Regarding "murder", I don't think that killing is always murder.  Murder is the shedding of innocent blood.  I am not really "for" war, but I do think killing can be justified (ouch! I can already imagine what people are going to say to that!)[]

I can say one thing which I think everyone will agree with me on:
Life is a Hard Place...a Place of Hard Life Experiences

In the end the thing that matters most is that we have tried to find truth and light and that we have tried to live by it.  Everyone will have a different and unique life and only God and us, the individual, are perfect judges...

(by the way, the reason I am posting so often is that the job I am at today allows me to be on the net![])

[Nerezza]

The world is not really overpopulated, it's just overflowing with idiots, and those idiots are in charge of resource allocation and nation-state governments. It will also apparently decline, 8 billion being the max(according to the U.N, can't find the report but im looking).

As for the contrast between murder and war, according to dictinary.com:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

The problem here is with the word 'unlawful' and it's also where pro-war and anti-war conflicts arise. Are there any wars that are lawful? If you say yes then who chose's them to be lawful? The winners or basic morals and conscience that are instilled into everyone? If you say war is never lawful, then what is the answer to foreign powers which do not subscibe to your basic morals and laws. Complete submission to those who will take advantage of you(while biblical sound, is not an easy thing to do). So in the end, we may have to agree to disagree.

Then there is homosexuality. I do agree with peacefulwarrior that it is wrong, but for two reasons:

1)I believe it to be a perversion and as such, goes against keeping the body a pure vessel(for the holy spirit in my case).

2)It goes against the nature of man and woman. What is our nature? An outsider to the human condition would say that we are born from a mother and father, mature, and copulate in a exchange of fluids wherein genes are also exchanged, resulting in the creation in a new life. I would say that the above limits us painfully and essentially adds to the popular belief that there is no point to life. Therefore I believe that we are born and move through life, but we do not chose who we fall in love with, if the love is truly love and not merely an occasion for rapant sexual acts, then so be it. But I also believe that God has put us here to live according to his designs, and we are designed for the procreation act. I think the reason gay people are looked down on, is so much that they are different, but that they fall into a stereotype of some sort, which makes it easy for others to classify and degrade them. So essentially im saying that if love exists, free from the temptations of carnality, than that is beautiful. Of course, I will say the same thing about heterosexuals.  

In summary though, I believe that love is love, but in my experience(not saying i've never seen it but 3 time out of 4) homosexuality is linked to perversion, and so goes against our inherrent morals.

I've known two gay people. One was a friend who would get naked at sleepovers and, well, nevermind(nothing bad, more funny than anything). We're no longer friends because he moved away so it was nothing personal. The other was my cousin who died of kidney failure, alone because his family alienated him. No one deserves that.

[Anonymous]

I think we should have breeding laws- no more than two children per family, unless in the event of a widespread epidemic or disaster which kills off a significant portion of our population. I think anytime the population hits a certain amount, we should instate this breeding law, and every time it falls below a certain number, we should remove it.

[Anonymous]

Actually, we shouldn't have any laws whatsoever. We should be responsible for ourselves and not depend on others to lead us.

[goingslow]

quote:Originally posted by Nerezza

The world is not really overpopulated, it's just overflowing with idiots, and those idiots are in charge of resource allocation and nation-state governments. It will also apparently decline, 8 billion being the max(according to the U.N, can't find the report but im looking).

The point of this?  this is only a speculation.. there is no way to tell what overpopulated means.  Sure if suddenly the U.S. decided to share all its resources then there wouldnt be staving people and overpopulation wouldnt be a problem.  However the U.S. is nevcer going to share all its resources therefore you still have the problem of starving children.  You cant ignore the problem just because there would possibly be a solution especially if that solution will never happen.

Whether the world is overpopulated or not there are still thousands of children who dont have homes.  I think that was more the point in arguing the point adoption is important.  It really isnt a valid point to state people who are not procreating are somehow doing something evil.  If anything they are opening a new market of children who will be adopted who would otherwise only know foster homes etc.  Maybe the world isnt overpopulated but can you deny there are also thousands who have kids who decide they dont want them?>

The point of overpopulation was brought up for a specific reason so i guess i dont understand why you brought up if the world were suddenly to change completely; and these idiots decided to share there really isnt overpopulation.

overpopulation refers to the available resources...not "what ifs".

Peaceful warrior:

The only reason i really did come off as angry is i have read your other posts.  If this was a political messageboard then I would expect a lot of homophobic type of "being gay is wrong".  However, I really do think people here are able to think more for themselves and I guess its more a nuisance that i see it here.

Oh and if homophobics were more open minded they wouldnt be homophobics so i dont really get what you were saying.

If you're suggesting im close minded to homophobia you're right.  Its been shoved down my throat since birth like  most people; and i have little tolerance for it.  And I dont consider it a fault of mine that im close minded to homophobia.  Im also close minded to racism and thats not something I plan on changing.  

I grew up in a homophobic home too.. I also went to catholic school as a kid.  So your environment is never an excuse.  when you chose to decide what is wrong and right for you usually revolves around "what hurts other people".  At least for me.. murder and rape etc hurt other people.  Homosexuality hurts no one.  And i personally would be offended if someone said "god will judge you not me".  Thats a judgment right there because it assumes god has a reason to judge. People finding love in a consentual relationship hurts no one.  And dont bring up pedophilia because thats insulting too when you speak of homosexuality in the same paragraph as murder.. rape.. abuse of kids.  I dont even know if you know you're being passively insulting.

what if i put "god will judge you for your belief in OBE" its not my job.  would you probably ask "why would god need to."

[Frank]

If it helps I once had an openly gay hairdresser and now I have one that is perhaps not so forthcoming. Not that I really care one way or the other. At my age, still having a full head of hair is kinda nice.

Yours,
Frank

[Nerezza]

If it helps I once had an openly gay hairdresser and now I have one that is perhaps not so forthcoming.

My highschool math teacher had a friend who wanted to be a hairdresser but didn't want the stigma attached with it(he was straight).

[Nerezza]

Enderwiggin,

I was actually thinking the other night about whether or not we should have laws, but I keep thinking of the people who will abuse it.

Also I think China has the population laws.

[Nerezza]

Goingslow,

The point is simple. Homosexuality cannot be used as a case for solving overpopulation. Also I did not say that gays shouldn't adopt, or several other things you assumed from my post.

And the problem isn't largely with the interaction between have and have not societies. Just looked at Eithipia.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Now that so much has been said in regards to this topic and more specifically my view, I find it very interesting and funny how so many people who proclaim to be so non-judgemental and so open minded and accepting cannot accept a point of view/opinion that is different from their own.

I posted this without any guile or need to decieve or anything like that.  I have also tried my very best to be friendly and open minded, so I don't think I reflect the plethora of idiots out there who proclaim what it right and wrong according to tradition and blind faith.  

So (and I am trying to be very logical here), judging by the way some people have said I need to act or not act, those same people should have just said, "I disagree with you for x reason (s) and I give you the right to think what you think".

Doesn't that make sense??  If we are all so worried about understanding and accepting one another, then why don't we?  I accept my friend who is gay, although it doesn't change my opinion about homosexuality and he accepts me.  So, since I accept your view, can you not accept mine?  If I were violent and/or in some way m militant about this view then I might now expect acceptance, but in this case it only seems fair, right??

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Nerezza
In summary though, I believe that love is love, but in my experience(not saying i've never seen it but 3 time out of 4) homosexuality is linked to perversion, and so goes against our inherrent morals.

It really is a shame that this seems to be the way gays are portrayed by those groups who dislike them. I must admit events like the Sydney Gay & Lesbian Mardi Gras go a long way to reinforcing that point, but this seems to be what attracts the most media attention to gay issues, and it tends to be the media that feeds our views on such things. HOw can we hope to get a balanced perspective this way?

Why is it that homosexuals are viewed as being any more perverted than heterosexuals?
Among the several gay men I have gotten to know over the years, I have worked with a few who are as loving, kind, considerate and LOYAL to their partners as any woman would wish her husband to be. I felt more comfortable talking with them than other straight men in the office because they didn't constantly talk about that new girl with the big tits and what they'd like to do to her. I see far more perversion going on in the heterosexual community than the gay community.

A person who is kind loving and loyal to their partner, respectful and considerate of others, whatever the gender, is a person who embodies the qualities that we all should be striving for. It seems to be people's hang ups with issues of sexual activities that clouds the perceptions of many. Sex is not love, love is not sex. They're not mutually exclusive, but they are seperate issues.

James.

[Tom]

My post seems to have been overlooked. I was trying to say that the sharp divisions between heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual are not valid. There are even reasons to say that the differences between men and women are not absolute. We need to focus more on sharing common experiences.

[Nerezza]

I essentially agree with you James.

Im just tired of a society where sex is used to sell both goods and souls, and where it's abused. Thats all.